Sat Mar 18, 2023, 05:09 PM

Coventina (25,302 posts)

Goddamn it: Just found a student paper that was written by AI.

I knew it was going to happen, and now the shoe has dropped.

Why do students cheat?

I never once cheated in all my years of schooling.

I find it despicable.

My policy is: first offense - you get a zero

Second offense - you are out of the class.

115 replies, 4937 views

Thread info Bookmark this thread Trash this thread

Reply to this thread

Always highlight: 10 newest replies | Replies posted after I mark a forum

Replies to this discussion thread

115 replies	Author	Time	Post
Goddamn it: Just found a student paper that was written by AI. (Original post)	Coventina	Mar 18	OP
How did you id it as AI?	SheltieLover	Mar 18	#1
There are several AI detectors you can run the text through.	Coventina	Mar 18	#2
Very interesting. I have a feeling that going forward, it's going to be a case of cat and mouse...	Hekate	Mar 18	#10
That's the part I don't get. How much effort to cheat vs. just doing the work?	Coventina	Mar 18	#17
I doubt that getting an AI to write your paper is hard work. nt	pnwmom	Mar 18	#51
This message was self-deleted by its author	NullTuples	Mar 18	#64
The students won't work hard to cheat. The AI developers will work hard to make cheating harder...	Silent3	Mar 18	#91
A student wwould just have to modify the text and run it through the AI detectors	DBoon	Mar 19	#111
And so exhausting and frustrating for teachers	PatSeg	Mar 19	#113
I didn't realize detectors existed.	SheltieLover	Mar 18	#20
They can't even cheat well.	ZonkerHarris	Mar 18	#86
I think there are already methods to get around these detectors.	honest.abe	Mar 19	#103
I know you'll be careful with	wryter2000	Mar 19	#114
Don't worry. ChaptGPT will get better and you'll never catch a student cheating again	SYFROYH	Mar 18	#3
Not funny.	Coventina	Mar 18	#5
Unfortunately, the data show that most college students cheat at least once.	SYFROYH	Mar 18	#11
Depressing that most humans have such shitty ethics.	Coventina	Mar 18	#15
Ty for the work you dom	SheltieLover	Mar 18	#21
FREE PUPPIES, FREE KITTENS. That's the reason I hate my species.	japple	Mar 18	#44
This. It also says the student thinks they don't actually need to learn the	Scrivener7	Mar 19	#115
I don't know why they bother.	DFW	Mar 18	#71
Cork is smart enough to hang out with wine.	Prairie_Seagull	Mar 19	#107
Or a medical doctor	Rebl2	Mar 18	#37
I wrote lots of papers	mgardener	Mar 18	#61
Although you make a very strong case...	lame54	Mar 18	#80
ChatGPT-4 can pass law & med exams with high marks....	CousinIT	Mar 18	#83
there will be more tools to detect AI content	RussBLib	Mar 18	#7
AI content at DU? Basically, next-level trolls and troll-farms. Question is, how do we detect it?	Hekate	Mar 18	#16
True. And it'll take more and more of our time to catch the lies.	groundloop	Mar 18	#69
as post 7 says	NJCher	Mar 18	#95
This already the case with 4.0	FreeState	Mar 18	#57
Ding ding ding give the man a cigar	dwayneb	Mar 19	#101
I went to Sweet Briar College in the 70s.	no_hypocrisy	Mar 18	#4
common knowledge doesn't	NJCher	Mar 18	#93
I was extra vigilant.	no_hypocrisy	Mar 19	#99
I understand	NJCher	Mar 19	#100
What clues did you have and what protection is there for you, the teacher?	Hekate	Mar 18	#6
A very low performing student turned in a paper that was way too sophisticated	Coventina	Mar 18	#8
Your problem will be when students start off by doing that	dsc	Mar 18	#12
at the beginning of every class	NJCher	Mar 18	#94
I think there's gonna have to be	Elessar Zappa	Mar 18	#9
So do we just give up on teaching how to communicate in writing from here on out?	Coventina	Mar 18	#13
Important production will have to be done...	LakeVermilion	Mar 18	#22
Absolutely not!	SheltieLover	Mar 18	#23
Right	Rebl2	Mar 18	#41
yes.	edisdead	Mar 18	#33
That's not what employers tell us. n/t	Coventina	Mar 18	#42
Which employers?	edisdead	Mar 18	#43
73% of Employers Look for Writing as a Top Skill in the Workplace	Coventina	Mar 18	#48
Sure.	edisdead	Mar 18	#52
Posting a link to back up what I said is not going for the jugular.	Coventina	Mar 18	#56
Also contenthacker...	edisdead	Mar 18	#53
OK, if Contenthacker isn't to your taste, here is INC. Magazine:	Coventina	Mar 18	#58
Thank you	Hekate	Mar 18	#87
Wow.	ShazzieB	Mar 18	#47
Post removed	Post removed	Mar 18	#49
Not going to waste my time.	ShazzieB	Mar 18	#54
Where did I say it is fine?	edisdead	Mar 18	#55
spelling errors in your posts o btw (or what are "wringing skills" ? )nt	orleans	Mar 19	#98
Probably a good idea to have them turn in not just the final product, but intermediate work as well	Salviati	Mar 18	#81
There is always a pen and paper. Or a manual typewriter.	JanMichael	Mar 18	#90
Better start teaching cursive first or use air gapped computers without spellcheck.	Prairie_Seagull	Mar 19	#109
Maybe	Rebl2	Mar 18	#40
Seems Inevitable	ProfessorGAC	Mar 18	#14
I'm guessing that AI can help with analyzing new data and drawing conclusions.	erronis	Mar 18	#36
You Will Become One With The Borg!	ProfessorGAC	Mar 18	#38
Fantastic post.	edisdead	Mar 18	#45
Thank you. I don't often get a positive review.	erronis	Mar 18	#70
Glad I'm retired.	badhair77	Mar 18	#18
Possibly, have the student recite the essay from memory	Tetrachloride	Mar 18	#19
How do you know it was ai?	Meowmee	Mar 18	#24
I ran the text through several AI detectors, and they all said "This is AI"	Coventina	Mar 18	#25
Those are the detectors?	Meowmee	Mar 18	#27
Yes and yes.	Coventina	Mar 18	#29
Yeah it sucks	Meowmee	Mar 18	#31
OP replied to that query. Replies #2 & 8 nt	Nittersing	Mar 18	#26
Thanks	Meowmee	Mar 18	#28
I asked a friend who owns an ad/marketing agency if they used chatGPT	Poiuyt	Mar 18	#30
My first quarter teaching in grad school, I had a student plagiarize	tishaLA	Mar 18	#32
'satiety' is famously used in another very well-known poem, To a Skylark, by Percy Bysshe Shelley	Celerity	Mar 18	#59
Many years ago, when I was a freshman in college, a friend of mine got caught plagiarizing.	Midwestern Democrat	Mar 19	#96
They cheat	Rebl2	Mar 18	#34
I cheated on a HS Spanish quiz once. I got caught of course	Bristlecone	Mar 18	#35
I taught a couple of college courses for a number of years	Ocelot II	Mar 18	#39
You should create a student named AI ...	aggiesal	Mar 18	#46
I like this idea!!!	Coventina	Mar 18	#50
+100 nt	reACTIONary	Mar 18	#67
Everybody cheats. Everybody.	cachukis	Mar 18	#60
I feel you	Traildogbob	Mar 18	#62
The best way to keep students from using cell phones ...	aggiesal	Mar 18	#82
Today's faculty	Traildogbob	Mar 18	#88
This offers a promising direction. Change the law so that certain...	LAS14	Mar 18	#89
I never cheated, either, I never had to	Warpy	Mar 18	#63
We had a guy in high school that would try and copy everyone else's homework ...	aggiesal	Mar 18	#84
Most of my college exams involved receiving blue notebooks	grantcart	Mar 18	#65
One of my history midterms,	moonscape	Mar 18	#79
It would be interesting to run it through chatGPT and ask it to reduce the reading level	Renew Deal	Mar 18	#66
crucifixion, first offense.	cab67	Mar 18	#68
Do you ever see a point where it will be accepted, similar to a calculator in math class?	Renew Deal	Mar 19	#102
For what?	cab67	Mar 19	#104
Graduation essay requirement	oldfart73	Mar 18	#72
Please define......".AI" for those who do not understand the term...	Stuart G	Mar 18	#73
Artificial Intelligence. n/t	Coventina	Mar 18	#74
That is the student did "NOT WRITE THE PAPER", .........THE COMPUTER WROTE IT	Stuart G	Mar 18	#75
Exactly. n/t	Coventina	Mar 18	#76
AI written material is easy to spot at this point.	BannonsLiver	Mar 18	#77
If they are able to answer questions about what they wrote, then I'd let it go.	eggplant	Mar 18	#78
Well, reading a book is certainly A LOT easier than writing one - and the same goes for term papers.	Midwestern Democrat	Mar 19	#97
Are there policies around the use of AI that students are aware of?	CousinIT	Mar 18	#85
Sounds a whole lot like plagiarism...	BlueIdaho	Mar 18	#92
This incident begs the question...	Pluvious	Mar 19	#105
This is the future	SammySlytherin	Mar 19	#106
Not exactly. In this case, the students input would just be "Write a paper about physics" for exampl	Oneironaut	Mar 19	#108
Papers will go the way of cursive handwriting and library book catalogs	News Junkie	Mar 19	#110
Learning to write teaches you to think in a clear organized fashion	DBoon	Mar 19	#112

Response to Coventina (Original post)

Sat Mar 18, 2023, 05:10 PM

SheltieLover (57,073 posts)

1. How did you id it as AI?

Reply to this post

Response to SheltieLover (Reply #1)

Sat Mar 18, 2023, 05:13 PM

Coventina (25,302 posts)

2. There are several AI detectors you can run the text through.

GPTzero

Copyleaks

GPTRadar

They all said "This was AI generated."

I was suspicious, because a low-performing student turned in a paper that was suspiciously sophisticated for his usual performance.

Reply to this post

Response to Coventina (Reply #2)

Sat Mar 18, 2023, 05:19 PM

Hekate (82,876 posts)

10. Very interesting. I have a feeling that going forward, it's going to be a case of cat and mouse...

Depressing, sad, infuriating

Reply to this post

Response to Hekate (Reply #10)

Sat Mar 18, 2023, 05:25 PM

Coventina (25,302 posts)

17. That's the part I don't get. How much effort to cheat vs. just doing the work?

My assignments really are not very hard.

It's just so stupid to work hard to cheat.

Reply to this post

Response to Coventina (Reply #17)

Sat Mar 18, 2023, 07:03 PM

pnwmom (107,652 posts)

51. I doubt that getting an AI to write your paper is hard work. nt

Reply to this post

Response to pnwmom (Reply #51)

NullTuples This message was self-deleted by its author.

Response to Coventina (Reply #17)

Sat Mar 18, 2023, 10:31 PM

Silent3 (13,602 posts)

91. The students won't work hard to cheat. The AI developers will work hard to make cheating harder...

...to detect.

That's the cat-and-mouse game, and it'll happen without easier cheating being the goal, but simply the byproduct of improving the AI so its output is more and more indistinguishable from a skilled human work product.

Reply to this post

Response to Hekate (Reply #10)

Sun Mar 19, 2023, 01:57 PM

DBoon (20,853 posts)

111. A student wwould just have to modify the text and run it through the AI detectors

until they get negative results.

Like what computer virus writers have done for years.

Reply to this post

Response to Hekate (Reply #10)

Sun Mar 19, 2023, 03:28 PM

PatSeg (44,915 posts)

113. And so exhausting and frustrating for teachers

Reply to this post

Response to Coventina (Reply #2)

Sat Mar 18, 2023, 05:30 PM

SheltieLover (57,073 posts)

20. I didn't realize detectors existed.

Great job!

I don't know why people cheat either. I never did.

Thx for sharing!

Reply to this post

Response to Coventina (Reply #2)

Sat Mar 18, 2023, 08:42 PM

ZonkerHarris (22,399 posts)

86. They can't even cheat well.

Reply to this post

Response to Coventina (Reply #2)

Sun Mar 19, 2023, 09:11 AM

honest.abe (7,187 posts)

103. I think there are already methods to get around these detectors.

I would not rely on detectors alone. I am not a teacher but I would think changing the process to do more in-classroom writing assignments with no smart phones allowed.

Personally l find Chat AI and other AI technology amazing and we should not fear it or try to eliminate it. This is the future and if don't embrace it we will be left behind.

Reply to this post

Response to Coventina (Reply #2)

Sun Mar 19, 2023, 04:18 PM

wryter2000 (44,919 posts)

114. I know you'll be careful with

Low performing student/sophisticated performance. I know people who were accused of not doing work that was theirs.

Reply to this post

Response to Coventina (Original post)

Sat Mar 18, 2023, 05:13 PM

SYFROYH (33,308 posts)

3. Don't worry. ChaptGPT will get better and you'll never catch a student cheating again

Reply to this post

Response to SYFROYH (Reply #3)

Sat Mar 18, 2023, 05:14 PM

Coventina (25,302 posts)

5. Not funny.

Do you want to hire professionals that cheated their way to degrees?

Reply to this post

Response to Coventina (Reply #5)

Sat Mar 18, 2023, 05:20 PM

SYFROYH (33,308 posts)

11. Unfortunately, the data show that most college students cheat at least once.

It's not ideal, but it is happening, and they get jobs.

I think academia has yet to come to terms with AI-produced work.

Reply to this post

Response to SYFROYH (Reply #11)

Sat Mar 18, 2023, 05:22 PM

Coventina (25,302 posts)

15. Depressing that most humans have such shitty ethics.

This is why I hate my species.

Reply to this post

Response to Coventina (Reply #15)

Sat Mar 18, 2023, 05:31 PM

SheltieLover (57,073 posts)

21. Ty for the work you dom

And for doing it with ethics in mind!

Reply to this post

Response to Coventina (Reply #15)

Sat Mar 18, 2023, 06:55 PM

japple (9,223 posts)

44. FREE PUPPIES, FREE KITTENS. That's the reason I hate my species.

Props to your post. I'm sorry you have to deal with this with your students.

I'm just in a bad mood because there was a child in the Tractor Supply Co parking lot this morning hollering "FREE PUPPIES!!!" She was in the back of a pick up truck. Her parents were probably either sitting inside where it was nice and warm or either inside the store or in Chic Fil-A next door. I just had to bite my tongue and close my eyes.

Reply to this post

Response to Coventina (Reply #15)

Sun Mar 19, 2023, 04:53 PM

Scrivener7 (47,343 posts)

115. This. It also says the student thinks they don't actually need to learn the

things they might have learned in your class.

A tiny mind stays tiny.

Reply to this post

Response to SYFROYH (Reply #11)

Sat Mar 18, 2023, 08:05 PM

DFW (50,619 posts)

71. I don't know why they bother.

Unless getting away with it is easier than it should be.

I wrote all my own stuff in college, graduated magna from an Ivy, and I'm stupid as a cork.

(Глуп как пробка, "gloop kak prawpka," old Russian expression meaning stupid as a cork, used to describe people like me)

Reply to this post

Response to DFW (Reply #71)

Sun Mar 19, 2023, 01:00 PM

Prairie_Seagull (1,407 posts)

107. Cork is smart enough to hang out with wine.

Reply to this post

Response to Coventina (Reply #5)

Sat Mar 18, 2023, 06:35 PM

Rebl2 (10,334 posts)

37. Or a medical doctor

Reply to this post

Response to Rebl2 (Reply #37)

Sat Mar 18, 2023, 07:17 PM

mgardener (1,590 posts)

61. I wrote lots of papers

When I was getti,g my BSN

Reply to this post

Response to Coventina (Reply #5)

Sat Mar 18, 2023, 08:21 PM

lame54 (33,616 posts)

80. Although you make a very strong case...

It was still pretty funny

Reply to this post

Response to Coventina (Reply #5)

Sat Mar 18, 2023, 08:37 PM

CousinIT (7,980 posts)

83. ChatGPT-4 can pass law & med exams with high marks....

...Just...unsettling. ChatGPT-3.5 could pass them too but with mediocre marks.

Just....scary, IMO.

Reply to this post

Response to SYFROYH (Reply #3)

Sat Mar 18, 2023, 05:16 PM

RussBLib (7,136 posts)

7. there will be more tools to detect AI content

AI ain't perfect. After all, it comes from flawed humans.

We may start seeing AI content here. To what end....?

Reply to this post

Response to RussBLib (Reply #7)

Sat Mar 18, 2023, 05:24 PM

Hekate (82,876 posts)

16. AI content at DU? Basically, next-level trolls and troll-farms. Question is, how do we detect it?

Much of these past 2+ decades, DUers have been pretty good at picking up the tells from troll-farms where English is not their first language. AI might smooth out the rough edges and ultimately provide a command of idiomatic usage the humans currently lack.

What do you think?

Reply to this post

Response to Hekate (Reply #16)

Sat Mar 18, 2023, 07:57 PM

groundloop (10,927 posts)

69. True. And it'll take more and more of our time to catch the lies.

Mark Twain was absolutely correct when he said "A lie can travel halfway around the world while the truth is still putting on its shoes."

Reply to this post

Response to Hekate (Reply #16)

Sat Mar 18, 2023, 11:11 PM

NJCher (32,449 posts)

95. as post 7 says

to what end?

Persuasion?

There are too many people here checking the news for significant stories and subsequently posting them. That's what most posts here are. There are a few other types of posts: rants, for example. Predictions. I don't see how or why anyone would post here using AI.

To even try, one would have to know the principles of persuasion. It's not just about writing--it's persuasion. Persuasion is both an art and a science. There's a lot to it, which is why marketing communications is one of the highest paid fields. I don't know if AI has been able to write persuasive communication. They may say they can, but as I said, there is so much to it that I doubt that it would be usable or of any quality.

Reply to this post

Response to SYFROYH (Reply #3)

Sat Mar 18, 2023, 07:08 PM

FreeState (10,295 posts)

57. This already the case with 4.0

It passes all the test so far as human. I’m sure the algorithms will be updated and it be a game of cat and mouse.

Reply to this post

Response to SYFROYH (Reply #3)

Sun Mar 19, 2023, 07:31 AM

dwayneb (677 posts)

101. Ding ding ding give the man a cigar

Do not delude yourself. AI will soon not only be undetectable, it will be the most powerful propaganda weapon ever conceived. I don't think we have a clue where this is going.

In a way I am glad I am an old codger, because I don't want to see the world after AI reaches it's ultimate capability. It will enslave us all, without doubt.

Reply to this post

Response to Coventina (Original post)

Sat Mar 18, 2023, 05:14 PM

no_hypocrisy (42,164 posts)

4. I went to Sweet Briar College in the 70s.

The college had an Honor Code where you swore you wouldn't cheat on tests and/or plagiarize. If you went before the Judicial Committee and found guilty, you were asked to leave (and they'd keep the balance of your tuition).

I gave references/footnotes almost every sentence when I wrote my senior thesis.

Reply to this post

Response to no_hypocrisy (Reply #4)

Sat Mar 18, 2023, 10:51 PM

NJCher (32,449 posts)

93. common knowledge doesn't

require a source, so your teacher should have noted that on your paper.

Reply to this post

Response to NJCher (Reply #93)

Sun Mar 19, 2023, 05:20 AM

no_hypocrisy (42,164 posts)

99. I was extra vigilant.

Reply to this post

Response to no_hypocrisy (Reply #99)

Sun Mar 19, 2023, 05:59 AM

NJCher (32,449 posts)

100. I understand

But it still counts as a mistake.

Reply to this post

Response to Coventina (Original post)

Sat Mar 18, 2023, 05:15 PM

Hekate (82,876 posts)

6. What clues did you have and what protection is there for you, the teacher?

This is so damned depressing. Best luck going forward.

Reply to this post

Response to Hekate (Reply #6)

Sat Mar 18, 2023, 05:18 PM

Coventina (25,302 posts)

8. A very low performing student turned in a paper that was way too sophisticated

for it to be his own work.

But, some of the phrasing was pretty clumsy, so it didn't read like a magazine article.

I don't know what protection I have, I guess I'm about to find out......

Reply to this post

Response to Coventina (Reply #8)

Sat Mar 18, 2023, 05:21 PM

dsc (51,668 posts)

12. Your problem will be when students start off by doing that

I assume you teach in person so you can have them write in front of you so you have some samples of what is definitely written by them. If not, I fear for the future.

Reply to this post

Response to dsc (Reply #12)

Sat Mar 18, 2023, 10:56 PM

NJCher (32,449 posts)

94. at the beginning of every class

it is standard operating procedure to have students do a writing sample. This is done in class and the sample is held by the instructor for the rest of the semester.

The sample is used to determine whether the student can stay in the class, but it is also used throughout the semester for other reasons--as a benchmark, for example. It is often used if the instructor suspects the student didn't write a particular paper.

Reply to this post

Response to Coventina (Original post)

Sat Mar 18, 2023, 05:19 PM

Elessar Zappa (10,634 posts)

9. I think there's gonna have to be

alternative assignments that don’t involve anything done at home, like papers, because AI is going to get better and harder to detect.

Reply to this post

Response to Elessar Zappa (Reply #9)

Sat Mar 18, 2023, 05:21 PM

Coventina (25,302 posts)

13. So do we just give up on teaching how to communicate in writing from here on out?

Writing about something is one of the best ways to judge whether the content has been learned, and how deeply.

Reply to this post

Response to Coventina (Reply #13)

Sat Mar 18, 2023, 05:32 PM

LakeVermilion (883 posts)

22. Important production will have to be done...

In the classroom. Students could generate a product from notes or references that are provided.

Reply to this post

Response to Coventina (Reply #13)

Sat Mar 18, 2023, 05:34 PM

SheltieLover (57,073 posts)

23. Absolutely not!

Maybe have a few periods to do a major test. No tech allowed at desk.

Reply to this post

Response to SheltieLover (Reply #23)

Sat Mar 18, 2023, 06:46 PM

Rebl2 (10,334 posts)

41. Right

Reply to this post

Response to Coventina (Reply #13)

Sat Mar 18, 2023, 06:28 PM

edisdead (257 posts)

33. yes.

Because the world is changing.

Access to information is key these days. Right or wrong. Access and knowledge of how to access.

Reply to this post

Response to edisdead (Reply #33)

Sat Mar 18, 2023, 06:49 PM

Coventina (25,302 posts)

42. That's not what employers tell us. n/t

Reply to this post

Response to Coventina (Reply #42)

Sat Mar 18, 2023, 06:54 PM

edisdead (257 posts)

43. Which employers?

That’s every employer I know right now, but could depend on industry too.

The ability to access, process, and apply information is the key to success going forward. Actually, it has been this way fir a while. AI is going to change that some, but by and large that is the world today outside if physical labor, or highly skilled labor (surgeons, etc). It isn’t just AI that is pushing that either. It is also the downsizing of staff and the upsizing of workload that employers are pushing.

Reply to this post

Response to edisdead (Reply #43)

Sat Mar 18, 2023, 07:01 PM

Coventina (25,302 posts)

48. 73% of Employers Look for Writing as a Top Skill in the Workplace

https://contenthacker.com/how-important-is-writing-in-the-workplace/

Reply to this post

Response to Coventina (Reply #48)

Sat Mar 18, 2023, 07:04 PM

edisdead (257 posts)

52. Sure.

But what level of writing are we talking about. I have yet in my professional career ever needed to write a 1000 word essay (or even demonstrate that I could). Can I wrote a resume? Can I write a detailed and concise email that conveys a point? Yes.

Nkw please go back and read my original post where I said RIGHT OR WRONG this is what is and has been happening.

Why are people here always so ready to go for the jugular? Jeez.

Reply to this post

Response to edisdead (Reply #52)

Sat Mar 18, 2023, 07:08 PM

Coventina (25,302 posts)

56. Posting a link to back up what I said is not going for the jugular.

Reply to this post

Response to Coventina (Reply #48)

Sat Mar 18, 2023, 07:06 PM

edisdead (257 posts)

53. Also contenthacker...

I don’t know anything about that site but I do find the name of that site ironic given the subject of this conversation Hahahahaha.

Reply to this post

Response to edisdead (Reply #53)

Sat Mar 18, 2023, 07:11 PM

Coventina (25,302 posts)

58. OK, if Contenthacker isn't to your taste, here is INC. Magazine:

https://www.inc.com/kaleigh-moore/study-73-of-employers-want-candidates-with-this-skill.html

Reply to this post

Response to Coventina (Reply #58)

Sat Mar 18, 2023, 08:57 PM

Hekate (82,876 posts)

87. Thank you

Someone is demonstrating a thin skin. Loved the line about you “going for the jugular”

Reply to this post

Response to edisdead (Reply #33)

Sat Mar 18, 2023, 06:58 PM

ShazzieB (10,495 posts)

47. Wow.

I am speechless.

Reply to this post

Response to ShazzieB (Reply #47)

Post removed

Response to Post removed (Reply #49)

Sat Mar 18, 2023, 07:06 PM

ShazzieB (10,495 posts)

54. Not going to waste my time.

Explaining my reaction to someone who has indicated that they think it's fine for students to turn in papers written by AI as their own work would be an exercise in futility.

Reply to this post

Response to ShazzieB (Reply #54)

Sat Mar 18, 2023, 07:07 PM

edisdead (257 posts)

55. Where did I say it is fine?

Never mind wringing skills, I think it is your reading akills that need work. I actually said RIGHT OR WRONG in my post.

Reply to this post

Response to edisdead (Reply #55)

Sun Mar 19, 2023, 03:44 AM

orleans (32,189 posts)

98. spelling errors in your posts o btw (or what are "wringing skills" ? )nt

Reply to this post

Response to Coventina (Reply #13)

Sat Mar 18, 2023, 08:25 PM

Salviati (5,878 posts)

81. Probably a good idea to have them turn in not just the final product, but intermediate work as well

An outline, list of sources, a rough draft with annotations required as to why they changed what they have in the final draft. Incentivise the individual steps instead of just the final product. Perhaps couple it with an oral exam or presentation with Q/A.

Reply to this post

Response to Coventina (Reply #13)

Sat Mar 18, 2023, 10:19 PM

JanMichael (24,428 posts)

90. There is always a pen and paper. Or a manual typewriter.

They still exist.

Reply to this post

Response to Coventina (Reply #13)

Sun Mar 19, 2023, 01:08 PM

Prairie_Seagull (1,407 posts)

109. Better start teaching cursive first or use air gapped computers without spellcheck.

Reply to this post

Response to Elessar Zappa (Reply #9)

Sat Mar 18, 2023, 06:45 PM

Rebl2 (10,334 posts)

40. Maybe

pop quizzes done in class? I don’t know if they even do that in college though. I sure don’t remember having them in college.
I like your idea of doing papers in class. Figure out their ability to write in class at the beginning of semester (first day) so you know their abilities.

Reply to this post

Response to Coventina (Original post)

Sat Mar 18, 2023, 05:22 PM

ProfessorGAC (57,812 posts)

14. Seems Inevitable

Glad there are tools for you to stay alerted.
In my field, I'm not sure it's a huge risk. For homework the book & notes are right there. So, cheating wouldn't really be cheating.
On tests, all they have to is right reactions on the board & ask for the steps in the mechanism. Oh, and check the phone and/or laptop at the door.
For a project, can AI be fed the experimental data and draw conclusions?

Reply to this post

Response to ProfessorGAC (Reply #14)

Sat Mar 18, 2023, 06:35 PM

erronis (12,340 posts)

36. I'm guessing that AI can help with analyzing new data and drawing conclusions.

That's what it is being used for in almost all fields of science.

From astronomy to nuclear physics. From biology to genomics. Even into the "softer" sciences such as sociology, psychology, psychiatry.

AI is fantastic at recognizing patterns in new data based on models built on prior data (and able to synthesize new models when competing data is presented.)

This is what humans and all sentient species have been doing since the beginning. Trying to recognize patters and determine how to explain them.

As far as checking the technology at the door - it's possible now but might not be for much longer. And that also leads to a situation where students are essentially captive and being punished for having the most recent brain implant.

It's a Brave New World!

Reply to this post

Response to erronis (Reply #36)

Sat Mar 18, 2023, 06:40 PM

ProfessorGAC (57,812 posts)

38. You Will Become One With The Borg!

I'm not getting one of those implants. To quote Worf "I like my species the way it is."

Reply to this post

Response to erronis (Reply #36)

Sat Mar 18, 2023, 06:56 PM

edisdead (257 posts)

45. Fantastic post.

Reply to this post

Response to edisdead (Reply #45)

Sat Mar 18, 2023, 07:57 PM

erronis (12,340 posts)

70. Thank you. I don't often get a positive review.

Reply to this post

Response to Coventina (Original post)

Sat Mar 18, 2023, 05:28 PM

badhair77 (3,711 posts)

18. Glad I'm retired.

Even though I warned a plagiarized paper would be a zero, HS kids still did it. I had them sign a sheet saying they understood the definition of plagiarism. I would print out their source copy, then their paper and highlight everything lifted. Sometimes it would be 90% of the pages highlighted. Then I’d have them in front of the principal and ask. “What of this paper did you write?” Every one of them cried. Seriously. But there would be offenders every year. It ate up a lot of my correction time plus I was disappointed in each student who took the easy way out.

Reply to this post

Response to Coventina (Original post)

Sat Mar 18, 2023, 05:29 PM

Tetrachloride (5,564 posts)

19. Possibly, have the student recite the essay from memory

Reply to this post

Response to Coventina (Original post)

Sat Mar 18, 2023, 05:34 PM

Meowmee (4,948 posts)

24. How do you know it was ai?

I suspect it of written work for one student and have already confirmed it for one visual plagiarism and suspect others- those are not ai, they just grab or copy an online image.

Reply to this post

Response to Meowmee (Reply #24)

Sat Mar 18, 2023, 05:36 PM

Coventina (25,302 posts)

25. I ran the text through several AI detectors, and they all said "This is AI"

GPTzero

Copyleaks

GPTRadar

Reply to this post

Response to Coventina (Reply #25)

Sat Mar 18, 2023, 05:43 PM

Meowmee (4,948 posts)

27. Those are the detectors?

Are they free? I forgot to say in my reply that you could just request them to write everything by hand and say they can’t turn anything in that’s typed. Or just have all written assignments done live in class and they have to be hand written. That is if you are teaching in person. I am teaching online only this semester so it’s pretty problematic. I could request everything to be written by hand still though it would be a lot harder to read. Also because of disability issues I’m not sure if I’m even allowed to require that.
,
I am at the point where I’m just fed up with all of this and I don’t wanna waste my time on it anymore. It takes a lot of extra time to find out if people are cheating.

Reply to this post

Response to Meowmee (Reply #27)

Sat Mar 18, 2023, 05:48 PM

Coventina (25,302 posts)

29. Yes and yes.

I'm actually going to address the class about this.

It's unfortunate, but I'm going to explain that because my trust has been broken, I will put a random part of every written assignment into the AI detectors.

It really sucks, because I could always spot plagiarism pretty easily when it was just something they copied straight from the internet.

Now, I'll have to be suspicious of every reasonably written paper.

Reply to this post

Response to Coventina (Reply #29)

Sat Mar 18, 2023, 05:51 PM

Meowmee (4,948 posts)

31. Yeah it sucks

It’s much easier if they just copy and paste text. I don’t know how I’m going to handle this to be honest with you… some of it is just going to have to slide because I am not in a state to be dealing with this nonsense anymore, and it’s very disheartening. I also suspect if I ever took it further than reducing a grade or whatever I would not be backed up. Basically many students believe they are paying for their degrees now, and they think they can do anything they want to and get away with it, and for the most part they are right.

I was watching a tutorial on YouTube about how to do a digital art project. It was a video from I believe a secondary or elementary school teacher. She was showing them how they could get images to use for the project from clip art! So I think students are getting the idea early on that it’s OK to do this.

Reply to this post

Response to Meowmee (Reply #24)

Sat Mar 18, 2023, 05:41 PM

Nittersing (5,448 posts)

26. OP replied to that query. Replies #2 & 8 nt

And also, reply #25.

Reply to this post

Response to Nittersing (Reply #26)

Sat Mar 18, 2023, 05:47 PM

Meowmee (4,948 posts)

28. Thanks

I did read the other replies but somehow I missed the first reply where it said that.

Reply to this post

Response to Coventina (Original post)

Sat Mar 18, 2023, 05:51 PM

Poiuyt (17,711 posts)

30. I asked a friend who owns an ad/marketing agency if they used chatGPT

I was asking in jest, but he said that they were using it. He said they had to or they'd be left behind.

Reply to this post

Response to Coventina (Original post)

Sat Mar 18, 2023, 06:09 PM

tishaLA (14,176 posts)

32. My first quarter teaching in grad school, I had a student plagiarize

It was supposed to be an explication of one of the poems we'd read and she chose "Ode On a Grecian Urn" by Keats. I knew the poem sounded strange when she started using poetic terms we hadn't covered in class, but what sealed the deal was when I came across the word "satiety." It's such an uncommon word, so I decided to do a search of some of the most suspicious phrases and there it was. On, believe it or not, johnkeats.com. If you're going to cheat, at least make it harder to find it!

I decided to talk to her and see whether she'd fess up, admit the mistake, and we could work something out, but she refused to admit it and, when I asked her what "satiety" means, her definition was the exact opposite of the correct one. She withdrew from the class.

Reply to this post

Response to tishaLA (Reply #32)

Sat Mar 18, 2023, 07:15 PM

Celerity (35,551 posts)

59. 'satiety' is famously used in another very well-known poem, To a Skylark, by Percy Bysshe Shelley

I adore Shelley's poetry, such a monstrous tragedy his voice was silenced when he drowned at only 29 years of age.

snip

What objects are the fountains
Of thy happy strain?
What fields, or waves, or mountains?
What shapes of sky or plain?
What love of thine own kind? what ignorance of pain?

With thy clear keen joyance
Languor cannot be:
Shadow of annoyance
Never came near thee:
Thou lovest: but ne'er knew love's sad satiety.

Waking or asleep,
Thou of death must deem
Things more true and deep
Than we mortals dream,
Or how could thy notes flow in such a crystal stream?

We look before and after,
And pine for what is not:
Our sincerest laughter
With some pain is fraught;
Our sweetest songs are those that tell of saddest thought.

Yet if we could scorn
Hate, and pride, and fear;
If we were things born
Not to shed a tear,
I know not how thy joy we ever should come near.

Better than all measures
Of delightful sound,
Better than all treasures
That in books are found,
Thy skill to poet were, thou scorner of the ground!

Teach me half the gladness
That thy brain must know,
Such harmonious madness
From my lips would flow
The world should listen then, as I am listening now.

Reply to this post

Response to tishaLA (Reply #32)

Sun Mar 19, 2023, 03:22 AM

Midwestern Democrat (720 posts)

96. Many years ago, when I was a freshman in college, a friend of mine got caught plagiarizing.

He was taking a Journalism 101 course and each student was assigned to write an obituary about a famous person who had died in the past. Well, instead of actually doing the assignment, he chose to simply copy - verbatim - the obituary that was published years earlier in the NEW YORK TIMES! Obviously, he got caught - as the professor explained to him "It was just too damn good."

Reply to this post

Response to Coventina (Original post)

Sat Mar 18, 2023, 06:34 PM

Rebl2 (10,334 posts)

34. They cheat

because they don’t want to do the hard work.

Reply to this post

Response to Coventina (Original post)

Sat Mar 18, 2023, 06:35 PM

Bristlecone (9,489 posts)

35. I cheated on a HS Spanish quiz once. I got caught of course

My teacher was really mad at me. The disappointed kind of mad that actually made me feel really bad about it.

It was just lazy of me.

Reply to this post

Response to Coventina (Original post)

Sat Mar 18, 2023, 06:40 PM

Ocelot II (107,014 posts)

39. I taught a couple of college courses for a number of years

as an adjunct instructor, and I always required papers. The students were warned about plagiarism and the necessity of citing sources and attributing quotes, and they were told that if they plagiarized they might get no credit for the paper. Since the paper was usually a significant part of the total grade that could mean they failed the course. I also warned them that I'd be able to tell if they copied their paper from another source. So they rarely did it. But there were a few instances of it (usually just failing to cite a source, which could have been inadvertent), but I remember one that was far too well-written for an undergrad paper, especially one by that guy. It wasn't hard to find his sources, which he had copied verbatim. So, 0 credit for the paper and a stern warning. Of course this was before the days of AI, but when you have a mediocre student turning in work that's at least grammatical, you have to check. I don't know why they cheat, either.

Reply to this post

Response to Coventina (Original post)

Sat Mar 18, 2023, 06:57 PM

aggiesal (7,990 posts)

46. You should create a student named AI ...

and every paper turned in by any student that was created by AI gets a zero and the AI Student gets the grade.
Wonder how that will affect the students mentally.

Reply to this post

Response to aggiesal (Reply #46)

Sat Mar 18, 2023, 07:01 PM

Coventina (25,302 posts)

50. I like this idea!!!

Reply to this post

Response to aggiesal (Reply #46)

Sat Mar 18, 2023, 07:43 PM

reACTIONary (5,426 posts)

67. +100 nt

Reply to this post

Response to Coventina (Original post)

Sat Mar 18, 2023, 07:15 PM

cachukis (1,144 posts)

60. Everybody cheats. Everybody.

You go to the 7-Eleven for a big gulp and you sip off the top and fill it up. Small cheat. Adds up for the 7-Eleven, but you excuse the little sip.

You could figure out how to drill a hole in terrazzo, but when you break a few bits you go ask an expert. A legitimate cheat because it is not in a cheat free environment. You buy the hammer drill.

I told my students if you cheat, you are a cheater. Go ahead and cheat. I will catch you and to me you will be nothing more than a cheat. You will become known as a cheater because all people cheat and they know when you've cheated. When you stop cheating yourself you have grown up.

I am here to help. No one will ever look up your grade on this paper, but they will judge your integrity. I will help you edit your paper, but you must submit your work.

I did catch a few cheaters and showed them where they got their paste ups. Word got out and after a time I had no cheaters.

My colleagues would not allow their students to submit their papers on line. I used technology and insisted they use hyperlinks and footnotes.

If I didn't get the final draft by 11:59 PM on deadline day, they got an F.

It got to the point where I had students submit their work on time, but in class the next day acknowledge they recognized some shortcomings in their work.

I'd ask if they knew how to fix it. If they said yes I would say fix it. If they said no, I would say you should have come to me first.

Youngsters today don't have the knuckle crackling rulers like we did.

But they respect honesty.

Reply to this post

Response to Coventina (Original post)

Sat Mar 18, 2023, 07:22 PM

Traildogbob (6,707 posts)

62. I feel you

Smart phones alone made me nuts. I had Multiple lectures with 60 in Auditoriums and giving exams in there was ripe for cell phone cheats to pull up info. I had to roam the room like hell to catch them. And those suckers could Google an answer behind their back with one finger. And in the Field Exams with Tree and Plant ID with scientific names with 20+ students scattered in the woods. At that time other Natural resources schools had Dendrology ID sites that show photos and to give the answers. You had to stay alert then. Once I requested an answer in a lecture exam with a scientific term I never used. One of the D level students had it correct and spelled it perfectly. His spelling was atrocious anyway. So I had him in my office asked to pronounce the word and spell it. He had no clue. He got a zero on the exam for cheating. A second attempt would have had him out of my class.
I am so glad to be retired as an educator. Loved my job but that kind of student was sickening and multiplying. And the State kept requiring us to water down material for students with spelling problems or math deficiencies. I had to give them multiple choice math answers. And I had to give Scientific names lists to choose answers from cause Latin hurt their feelings. Damn it I had to learn hundreds and spell them all perfectly. We have been spoon feeding them too long. Zero critical thinking skills. That will be next for GQP college. Critical thinking stresses them out, (and would have them question the Bible)
Now you guys have GQP and illiterate parents threatening you.
Wish you best.

Reply to this post

Response to Traildogbob (Reply #62)

Sat Mar 18, 2023, 08:36 PM

aggiesal (7,990 posts)

82. The best way to keep students from using cell phones ...

Last edited Sat Mar 18, 2023, 11:24 PM - Edit history (1)

for Internet searches during class is to use the WiFi jammers.
They were used in movie theaters, churches and any other place where you don't want to be interrupted by calls or text notifications.

But then the courts have ruled that Federal law prohibits the operation, marketing, or sale of any type of jamming equipment that interferes with authorized radio communications, including cellular and Personal Communication Services (PCS), police radar, and Global Positioning Systems (GPS).

I don't know why cellular should be included in this because most of us never had that capability during our schooling years. I'm thinking it might be for emergency purposes.
But if that was the case, why didn't we have a land line phone in every classroom for the same reason?

Reply to this post

Response to aggiesal (Reply #82)

Sat Mar 18, 2023, 09:21 PM

Traildogbob (6,707 posts)

88. Today's faculty

Have so much to deal with. I loved what I did, I was very proud to have been faculty, but I have no idea why one would choose that profession these days. Those that do are unsung hero’s. Going from chalk, to white boards with dry erase markers to power point was great advances. And tech will continue to make teaching better, even for students, but, emotional stress from admin, State boards that wanna control your class, and budgets being slashed, hours up to 60+ a week, not to mention practically 24/7 being in your head, and now irate parents that have no clue, with hate, and throw in gun threats, damn.

Reply to this post

Response to aggiesal (Reply #82)

Sat Mar 18, 2023, 09:39 PM

LAS14 (13,061 posts)

89. This offers a promising direction. Change the law so that certain...

... environments can be protected from internet access. Like classrooms.

Reply to this post

Response to Coventina (Original post)

Sat Mar 18, 2023, 07:26 PM

Warpy (106,503 posts)

63. I never cheated, either, I never had to

Some kids cheat because they're lazy and others just to see if they can get away with it. A few of the smart kids cheated because they were competitive and thought a higher grade would mean something (it never did).

I resented the hell out of it when a kid would try to copy anything of mine, so I'd screw them up. I got to be good at it.

Reply to this post

Response to Warpy (Reply #63)

Sat Mar 18, 2023, 08:38 PM

aggiesal (7,990 posts)

84. We had a guy in high school that would try and copy everyone else's homework ...

We started calling him Xerox.

Reply to this post

Response to Coventina (Original post)

Sat Mar 18, 2023, 07:36 PM

grantcart (52,624 posts)

65. Most of my college exams involved receiving blue notebooks

You received a page of questions and picked 3 to answer.

Exam week was scheduled so that every class had 1 four session. At the end of the four hours you submitted your notebooks and left exhausted. No one could cheat.

It was brutal and I loved it.

Reply to this post

Response to grantcart (Reply #65)

Sat Mar 18, 2023, 08:17 PM

moonscape (4,336 posts)

79. One of my history midterms,

I had pulled an all-nighter cramming. Got to the exam, which consisted of a few minor questions, and the major essay which we had 2 hours for. And a couple of blue books.

Checked out the essay question and panicked. I hadn’t studied that area at all, and my mind and the blue book were blank. Guaranteed F so maybe I should just walk out. My mind was racing. With nothing to lose, I did the only thing I could think of, and began writing my essay:

“While is historically important, more interesting historically is “. I then wrote 2 blue books answering my own question.

When we went back to class, the professor handed back the graded exams but not mine, announcing I needed to see him after class for mine. Uh oh. That was a long class!

Went up afterwards and he said, “Had I actually asked the question you answered, you would have gotten an A. I down-graded it to a B vs an F for quality and creativity. But if you ever try to pull something like that again, you will not only fail the exam but the class.”

Whew. Dodged a bullet my Senior year!

Reply to this post

Response to Coventina (Original post)

Sat Mar 18, 2023, 07:42 PM

Renew Deal (80,796 posts)

66. It would be interesting to run it through chatGPT and ask it to reduce the reading level

And consolidate some of the paragraphs. Then run it through the scanners again.

Reply to this post

Response to Coventina (Original post)

Sat Mar 18, 2023, 07:43 PM

cab67 (2,485 posts)

68. crucifixion, first offense.

(Monty Python reference.)

Seriously - we've had extensive conversations about this on campus. We're now required to address the usability of AI in our classes on the syllabi.

To me, the answer is "it is never permissible." Not sure why anyone would feel otherwise.

Reply to this post

Response to cab67 (Reply #68)

Sun Mar 19, 2023, 08:48 AM

Renew Deal (80,796 posts)

102. Do you ever see a point where it will be accepted, similar to a calculator in math class?

Because it will be more important to know how to use the tools than it will be to research and write. I wonder if we will ever hit that point on a large scale. I’ve heard of individual classes or schools doing that.

Reply to this post

Response to Renew Deal (Reply #102)

Sun Mar 19, 2023, 10:52 AM

cab67 (2,485 posts)

104. For what?

Calculators help with the basic tasks students already know so they can focus on the more important problems they’re asked to address.

I suppose there’s a role for AI in a similar fashion, but when it comes to writing an essay or term paper, I can’t see it extending beyond what a dictionary or thesaurus might provide.

Reply to this post

Response to Coventina (Original post)

Sat Mar 18, 2023, 08:06 PM

oldfart73 (14 posts)

72. Graduation essay requirement

In order to graduate, four year degree, we had to write a 500 word essay. We went in one Saturday to learn the requirements and pick two topics we wanted to write about. Then on another Saturday, we showed up with nothing in hand. They gave us pencil and paper and two questions on each topic. We could write an essay on any of the four questions. I followed speech class format for writing my essay. If you passed, that was fine. If there was any doubt, more people would review the essay.

Reply to this post

Response to Coventina (Original post)

Sat Mar 18, 2023, 08:09 PM

Stuart G (36,612 posts)

73. Please define......".AI" for those who do not understand the term...

Reply to this post

Response to Stuart G (Reply #73)

Sat Mar 18, 2023, 08:10 PM

Coventina (25,302 posts)

74. Artificial Intelligence. n/t

Reply to this post

Response to Coventina (Reply #74)

Sat Mar 18, 2023, 08:12 PM

Stuart G (36,612 posts)

75. That is the student did "NOT WRITE THE PAPER", .........THE COMPUTER WROTE IT

Reply to this post

Response to Stuart G (Reply #75)

Sat Mar 18, 2023, 08:12 PM

Coventina (25,302 posts)

76. Exactly. n/t

Reply to this post

Response to Coventina (Original post)

Sat Mar 18, 2023, 08:14 PM

BannonsLiver (14,898 posts)

77. AI written material is easy to spot at this point.

Reply to this post

Response to Coventina (Original post)

Sat Mar 18, 2023, 08:15 PM

eggplant (3,671 posts)

78. If they are able to answer questions about what they wrote, then I'd let it go.

If they understand the material and can point out where in the paper they discuss a particular item and how they came to believe whatever it was that they "wrote", then they learned the material. If something else wrote it and they *still* know the content backwards and forwards, then does it really matter?

Of course, the likelihood is that anyone who gets an AI to write for them isn't going to take the trouble to read and parse what they are turning in.

I'm not sure this is any worse than buying old papers, but the clues are different. Ever seen a case where someone referenced the second edition of a book, when the current edition is the sixth? Oops.

Reply to this post

Response to eggplant (Reply #78)

Sun Mar 19, 2023, 03:41 AM

Midwestern Democrat (720 posts)

97. Well, reading a book is certainly A LOT easier than writing one - and the same goes for term papers.

Writing a term paper might take a couple of weeks of fairly intense research and writing, while reading it might involve nothing more taxing than simply laying on the couch for an hour reading it.

Reply to this post

Response to Coventina (Original post)

Sat Mar 18, 2023, 08:39 PM

CousinIT (7,980 posts)

85. Are there policies around the use of AI that students are aware of?

Guessing there are, in which case the student should have known better.

Reply to this post

Response to Coventina (Original post)

Sat Mar 18, 2023, 10:44 PM

BlueIdaho (12,989 posts)

92. Sounds a whole lot like plagiarism...

At the school where I taught the first instance was cause for course failure. The second instance was cause for dismissal from the institution. It was written into the student code of conduct.

Serious stuff in higher Ed.

Reply to this post

Response to Coventina (Original post)

Sun Mar 19, 2023, 12:32 PM

Pluvious (3,615 posts)

105. This incident begs the question...

I was taught the slide rule in 8th grade

I learned how to do long division with a pencil and paper in 6th grade

I learned cursive writing in 1st grade

In HS I was taught how to write a research paper by using the library, index cards with sources of the information and details I discovered.

With changing tools, inevitably comes changing needs of what skills to learn.

Adjustments must follow to what and how we teach our youth.

Reply to this post

Response to Coventina (Original post)

Sun Mar 19, 2023, 12:54 PM

SammySlytherin (3 posts)

106. This is the future

Is it really cheating? How often have you used the function that suggests the best word? That is AI. The AI is only capable of generating outputs based on a person's inputs. Without the student's output, there would be no essay. This is the future.

Reply to this post

Response to SammySlytherin (Reply #106)

Sun Mar 19, 2023, 01:01 PM

Oneironaut (4,616 posts)

108. Not exactly. In this case, the students input would just be "Write a paper about physics" for exampl

They don’t need to actually know anything about physics in this case. The AI does all the work.

Schools are going to eventually have to significantly retool how assignments work.

Reply to this post

Response to Coventina (Original post)

Sun Mar 19, 2023, 01:53 PM

News Junkie (312 posts)

110. Papers will go the way of cursive handwriting and library book catalogs

They've always been a waste of time for most students. I've never had to write one in my professional career.

Reply to this post

Response to Coventina (Original post)

Sun Mar 19, 2023, 03:23 PM

DBoon (20,853 posts)

112. Learning to write teaches you to think in a clear organized fashion

You may never have to write a paper in your professional life, but I've had to write many audit reports, consulting findings and recommendations, policies and procedures, and technical instructional materials. If you can write a well organized term paper, the rest of these will be easy.

I've worked with computer science graduates who were never required top write a term paper. Many could not write a correct sentence. I would have to sit down with them, try to figure out what they meant, and write the findings and conclusions myself.

Someone who cheats at writing is just delaying their inevitable failure. An institution that allows this devalues their degree.

Reply to this post

General Discussion (Forum)