The French are way off on this to me. 35-hour work weeks and just 2 years added to retirement??

[Samrob]

2 years to save the entire system? What am I missing?

[brewens]

1. Maybe that all things considered, one person working full-time should take care of everything.

In this country, it was never as good for everyone as portrayed on Leave it to Beaver, but we were closer.

[Raven123]

2. It's a matter of perspective

I remember when the age of full social security retirement was raised in the USA. Yet I hear talking about raising it again. We don’t know what French workers are seeing around them

[PoindexterOglethorpe]

20. The age for full social security retirement was put in place decades ago.

Also, the earliest age at which people can collect has not gone up, and the vast majority of people collect before their full retirement age. A quick on-line search tells me that only 5% of women and 7% of men delay collecting to age 70. I'm one of the 5%, and extremely glad I waited.

[Raven123]

23. There have been changes

https://www.ssa.gov/pressoffice/IncRetAge.html

[PoindexterOglethorpe]

28. Thank you for that link.

It clearly shows that the change from age 65 being full retirement, to age 66, and eventually to age 67, was set in place some 40 years ago. Meanwhile, people can still collect at age 62 if they so choose.

The other thing many people don't understand about "full retirement age" is that it's not only a particular benefit point, but also the age at wish you can continue working, and your SS won't be reduced if you earn more than a particular amount. For people who want to collect but keep on working, that's an important consideration.

[RobinA]

33. I Was Aiming

for 70, but I don't think I'm going to make it. My full retirement age is 66.8 years, I just turned 65. My job, or my reaction to my job, is starting to have an effect on my mental health. I have tried to move within my organization, but they farmed out HR, which makes hiring or moving laterally a trip through the looking glass. As it is, I'd get more satisfaction out of stocking shelves at CVS, which is a big part of the problem. It sure would pay off if I could wait, though.

[PoindexterOglethorpe]

35. Perhaps you could take some totally different job out there,

to help delay SS until age 70. Heck, stocking shelves might not be such a bad idea!

[cbabe]

3. As heard on CBC radio,

Owners and corporations become wealthy on the backs of workers. They should pay their fair share instead of punishing workers. Changing retirement age benefits employers not workers.

The capitalism thing.

[Meadowoak]

6. +1

[Bettie]

16. This right here

+1

[BlueCheeseAgain]

18. I feel like it's less of an employer-worker thing as a retiree-worker thing.

They've gone from 4 workers for each retiree in the 1960s to 1.7 workers for each retiree now.

So to maintain the same level of benefits without raising the retirement age, current workers will have to pay quite a bit more. On the other hand, current workers will one day be retirees, so they're kind of on both sides of the issue.

[House of Roberts]

21. In the 1960s 4 workers didn't have the productivity of ONE worker now.

Go back and compare worker productivity with an ordinary typewriter to a modern word processor or a manual machinist with a Bridgeport manual milling machine to a modern Haas CNC milling machine.

[BlueCheeseAgain]

22. That's certainly true...

But does that mean the taxes on 1.7 workers now can support as many retirees as the taxes of four workers back then? That seems to be the key question.

[Uncle Joe]

24. Tax the robots

We have recently seen a tremendous development of AI and robotics in particular since recent last years. This development is positive. But the use of robots, in the future, raises also concerns : its impact on jobs. We therefore need to think about solutions in this context because if this occurs, a triple negative effect could arise :
Loss of revenues for tax, additional financing needs from the social security and the decrease of consumption. To minimise this triple negative effect, there is a solution: taxing robots or the use of robots. Xavier Oberson is Professor of Swiss and International Tax Law at the University of Geneva since 1994. After his studies at the University of Geneva where he obtained a law degree, a Master of Advanced Studies and a Doctorate (PhD) in law in 1990, he pursued his studies and research at the Harvard Law School where he finalized a LLM and also completed the International Tax Program (ITP) in 1992.
In addition, he is member of the Board of the Montreux Jazz Festival, President of the Montreux Jazz Artists Foundation and of the “Centre d’Art Contemporain” (Contemporary Art Center) in Geneva.
In 2012, he was awarded the “Step Private Client Awards. The Geoffrey Schindler Award for Outstanding Contribution to the Profession”. This talk was given at a TEDx event using the TED conference format but independently organized by a local community. Learn more at https://www.ted.com/tedx

From Jun 15, 2018

https://www.democraticunderground.com/1017813766

[House of Roberts]

27. I made about $3 an hour in the 70s.

My FICA taxes doubled in 1983. Now, a good CNC machinist can get $25 an hour or more.

We shouldn't be having this argument anyway, we should be 'taxing the robots' as Uncle Joe says, meanwhile, eliminate the income that's excluded from FICA taxes entirely, and raise the cap significantly.

That's what Macron doesn't want to do, raise taxes on the wealthy. He'd rather screw the workers instead.

[PoindexterOglethorpe]

29. Another, personal example.

I became an airline ticket agent in 1969. My airline was exactly the second one to go to a computerized reservations system, which put us ahead of everyone else (except for American), but we still hand wrote each and every ticket. Some years later the tickets were being printed out by the computers, a huge saving in time, especially if someone had a bunch of flights.

[Johnny2X2X]

4. I support the people

Their labor supports the rich in France, they know the rich don't pay their fair share there either, and now they want to take away their early retirements. And this is how it starts, it ends with people working until they drop dead, like here in America.

[Meadowoak]

7. +1

[onecaliberal]

5. I think the French have it exactly right.

[Meadowoak]

8. +1

[Irish_Dem]

9. Europeans are used to their governments caring about them.

In the US we don't have that history.

[Lancero]

10. The current French system is, compared to the US system, so generous...

Because they are willing to strike to defend it.

We look at what they get, and think they have no reason to strike because it's such a better deal than what we accept. When the deal we get is so bad, because we don't care enough to stand up, to fight for something better. And because we've long since become docile to ever worsening conditions, we do fuck all when politicians start stripping away our rights. Or worse, applaud it - Like we did when railstrikes were declared illegal.

It's not so much about things being slightly worse. They've seen just how bad things could get, when the nations people become docile - Become cowards - and lose the will to fight for themselves.

[Meadowoak]

12. They're fighting the fight we should have fought 40 years ago.

[Meadowoak]

11. Not to mention, just like here, they wouldn't be forced to retire early. If someone

Is in good health, and has a job they love, they can work as long as they like.

[intrepidity]

13. With imminent AI upheaval of *all* economies,

it's past time to reverse the trend and let some of the benefits of technological advance pass down the chain at a much greater rate.

If AI can replace a human, it means the human is operating as a robot and not fulfilling their uniquely human potential. Economies worldwide must adjust so they nurture that potential rather than quash it.

Drastically reducing retirement age needs to be the new normal. The exponential increases in productivity via tech should fund it.

[pecosbob]

14. French politicians fear the people...the way it should be here.

The way things are going the rich of the world will need more security very soon. Then when the money is gone most of the food and water are gone they'll need to fear their protectors AND the downtrodden.

[xmas74]

15. Slippery slope.

Once you give an inch they'll take a mile.

[XanaDUer2]

19. This

First, it'll be 2 yrs. Then 5...etc. better nip it in the bud now

[xmas74]

25. If we'd been smart

We'd taken to the streets long ago.

[BlueCheeseAgain]

17. The 35-hour work week seems reasonable to me.

But given changing demographics, I wonder how long they can support their current pension system with such an early retirement age. There are a lot more retirees per worker than there were when they first came up with their system.

[BeyondGeography]

30. They can't, which is why Macron is taking the bullet

Last edited Fri Mar 24, 2023, 03:24 AM - Edit history (2)

France spends over 13 per cent of GDP on pensions compared with an EU average of 10.3 per cent and the number of retirees keeps growing. He had broad political support for reforming the system in principle but a lot of it headed for the hills when the fallout became apparent. Macron is doing the right and rational thing and the French will ultimately be stronger for it. France currently spends €330 billion per year on pensions, €54 billion on education and €43 billion on defense. That first number has to come down or at least stabilize.

However, I do agree with the posters here who see value in the protests and keeping the political price of victory for the state as high as possible. That will keep the retirement age at 64 for many years to come, which will turn out to be no small victory.

[moonshinegnomie]

26. think of the way it was done

there was doubt it would pass the legislature so macron decreed it.

[ZonkerHarris]

31. You're looking at it wrong. The real question is why don't you have that?

[wishstar]

32. France's tax cuts favoring wealthy and corporations in recent years are probably a factor

I would guess that some of the anger involves the perception that average workers already haven't benefited much from France's tax cuts skewed toward the wealthy and that more future tax cuts for wealthy are proposed while they are being forced to work longer

[Emile]

34. The Degradation of Working-Class is a worldwide problem!

I stand behind the working class!