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ecstatic

(32,653 posts)
Thu Mar 30, 2023, 08:17 PM Mar 2023

I don't think anyone needs to apologize because I strongly believe complaining made a difference

We complained and demanded justice until Bragg, Garland and others were forced to listen. I think they wanted to turn the page and move on. I don't believe this day would be here had we not put continuous pressure on them.

Schiff and others from the January 6th committee were EXTREMELY frustrated with Garland to the point where they were calling him out on national television. He finally did something in appointing the special prosecutor.

Similarly, Bragg had quietly moved on until Pomerantz called him out in his book.

Just my opinion, of course. Those who wish to apologize are free to do so.

Anyway, cheers! 🥂🎊🎈🥳🤗😁

59 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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I don't think anyone needs to apologize because I strongly believe complaining made a difference (Original Post) ecstatic Mar 2023 OP
I don't think any of those people read DU. emulatorloo Mar 2023 #1
It is not about DU, it is the public sentiment that the rich and powerful get off the hook. Irish_Dem Mar 2023 #3
Breaking News.. On line Forums intersect i.e. Twitter, Facebook etc and is THE reference point msfiddlestix Apr 2023 #35
I have been posting the same thing. Irish_Dem Mar 2023 #2
Sorry, but that's a laughable assertion. TwilightZone Mar 2023 #5
These are deadly serious issues which go to the very heart of our democracy and country. Irish_Dem Mar 2023 #9
+1000. Exactly! nt ecstatic Mar 2023 #14
It's rather peculiar to me this has to be explained anymore. msfiddlestix Apr 2023 #36
Gotta agree. BlackSkimmer Mar 2023 #28
Aww, you are super grumpy today RandiFan1290 Mar 2023 #29
They were always doing their jobs. But they don't leak, so some DU'ers assumed nothing was emulatorloo Mar 2023 #6
There was zero data to support the courts would do anything. Irish_Dem Mar 2023 #10
... emulatorloo Mar 2023 #13
I think people like us have made a difference. nt delisen Mar 2023 #11
Uh, no. TwilightZone Mar 2023 #4
+1000 wnylib Mar 2023 #23
Is there no limit to your patience? Will it run out at the peak of the 2024 elections campaign msfiddlestix Apr 2023 #38
I don't think anyone in a position of authority cares about (or is even aware of) DU. Just A Box Of Rain Mar 2023 #7
I'm not referring to us specifically but it was the sentiment ecstatic Mar 2023 #15
I don't think Bragg, Garland, or Smith give a damn about the kvetching either. Just A Box Of Rain Mar 2023 #17
This! Lots and lots of this. Phoenix61 Mar 2023 #18
+1 betsuni Mar 2023 #20
Totally agree. wnylib Mar 2023 #24
"They want cases they can win" ecstatic Mar 2023 #27
"Everybody knows it" doesn't cut it legally. Just A Box Of Rain Mar 2023 #30
If you shoot for the King, you better not miss. emulatorloo Apr 2023 #39
So tiring answering with the obvious, isn't it? msfiddlestix Apr 2023 #44
I'm not referring to us specifically but it was the sentiment ecstatic Mar 2023 #16
Sarcasm: Why would anyone be skeptical, just because the last Republican to pay a price was Nixon? JHB Mar 2023 #8
Please, these people were doing their jobs, not listening to people whine on the internet. tritsofme Mar 2023 #12
To me this means that the corrupted rigging bad people (everyone, pretty much, because everyone's betsuni Mar 2023 #19
This was a new case JustAnotherGen Mar 2023 #21
Agree Meowmee Mar 2023 #22
It's just speculation that complaining forced Bragg to do something Kaleva Mar 2023 #25
you're presuming your own premise treestar Mar 2023 #26
Well, you can think that if you want ExWhoDoesntCare Apr 2023 #31
A lot of people not on DU feel the same way we do. I'm thinking public pressure helped Hotler Apr 2023 #32
You have zero basis in fact to assert that. emulatorloo Apr 2023 #43
I fully agree with you. (nt) Paladin Apr 2023 #33
Public sentiment and pressure are SUPPOSED to make a difference, Hortensis Apr 2023 #34
Well said. Thank you. emulatorloo Apr 2023 #41
"We were so wrong about this, so let's move the goalposts and declare victory." emulatorloo Apr 2023 #37
Just to clarify, the never-indict naysayers are a separate group ecstatic Apr 2023 #57
Thanks for the clarification. emulatorloo Apr 2023 #58
not one of these prosecutors who have assembled grand juries and are feeding them evidence bigtree Apr 2023 #40
Some people seem to have studied "Re-framing 101" Just A Box Of Rain Apr 2023 #42
For most it's no doubt sincere. Hortensis Apr 2023 #45
My conclusion is that such tendencies are the byproducts of deliberate tactics of populist movements Just A Box Of Rain Apr 2023 #46
Oh, me too! +1000. The populist threats are scary-real, Hortensis Apr 2023 #47
Those of us who are not "drawn to the destruction populist negativism calls for" had better become Just A Box Of Rain Apr 2023 #48
On the 25th H2O Man Apr 2023 #49
It is also notable that during the rise of Nazism in 1930s Germany that liberal democracy Just A Box Of Rain Apr 2023 #51
It's interesting ..... H2O Man Apr 2023 #53
Count me as one who thinks it is worth fighting for liberal democracy in this country. Just A Box Of Rain Apr 2023 #55
Yes. H2O Man Apr 2023 #56
Thank you so much for sharing this quote from Rubin. emulatorloo Apr 2023 #59
And techniques using internet communications are Hortensis Apr 2023 #50
Convincing people that the Democratic Party is "corporatist" (social fascists) and Just A Box Of Rain Apr 2023 #52
Great point. H2O Man Apr 2023 #54

Irish_Dem

(46,579 posts)
3. It is not about DU, it is the public sentiment that the rich and powerful get off the hook.
Thu Mar 30, 2023, 08:23 PM
Mar 2023

That there is a dual system of justice.

msfiddlestix

(7,271 posts)
35. Breaking News.. On line Forums intersect i.e. Twitter, Facebook etc and is THE reference point
Sat Apr 1, 2023, 10:23 AM
Apr 2023

by all Politicians, Media, Government Agencies etc.

On line forums have become the virtual "town hall" in some respects, Water Cooler, Pub, Public Squares etc etc

DU happens to be comprised of people who read and post on Twitter and other on line forums.

Prosecutors don't have to read DU to see what people are concerned about.

But they do read Twitter and a number of DU members are engaged on Twitter..









Irish_Dem

(46,579 posts)
2. I have been posting the same thing.
Thu Mar 30, 2023, 08:21 PM
Mar 2023

I know it is not popular, but I agree, we may have shamed
the criminal justice system into doing their damn jobs.

I think prominent figures speaking out may also have had an impact.

Instead of apologizing, we should feel proud we may have made a difference.

And it is a long haul anyway. An indictment is only the first step.
Long way from trial, conviction, sentencing.

I assume Trump will cut a plea deal any way and just pay a fine.

TwilightZone

(25,429 posts)
5. Sorry, but that's a laughable assertion.
Thu Mar 30, 2023, 08:24 PM
Mar 2023

No one is going to make a decision of this magnitude based on the rants of a few people on a message board.

Irish_Dem

(46,579 posts)
9. These are deadly serious issues which go to the very heart of our democracy and country.
Thu Mar 30, 2023, 08:41 PM
Mar 2023

I simply cannot imagine someone laughing about it.

I am not talking about DU, I am talking about public opinion.
I take We The People quite seriously, it is a very important value to me.

Public opinion about whether we are a nation of laws or not, is no laughing matter.

It is not laughable that the public, elected officials, and legal scholars have been angry and upset
about the court inaction in regard to Trump.

It is most certainly not a laughing matter that someone steals classified documents and puts lives in danger.
And starts an insurrection against the US government.

No sensible person who believes in democracy should be laughing right now.

Sensible people should be thanking those who have been speaking up.
Who have the courage and wisdom to speak out for the right thing.

I take my duties as an American citizen quite seriously and don't find it laughable in the least.

msfiddlestix

(7,271 posts)
36. It's rather peculiar to me this has to be explained anymore.
Sat Apr 1, 2023, 10:37 AM
Apr 2023

As if by using the term "we" the implication a message board specifically means DU which it does not.

There's a lack of awareness that the town square is on line, and DU is not the sole domain. Twitter, FB and all the others intersect, and i is all too evident that most if not many politicians check their twitter. Government and Law Enforcement Agencies, Intel etc etc read twitter . It all intersects.

Seems like some folks don't acknowledge this . I think it's long time past time they do.









emulatorloo

(44,072 posts)
6. They were always doing their jobs. But they don't leak, so some DU'ers assumed nothing was
Thu Mar 30, 2023, 08:36 PM
Mar 2023

happening.

But none of that matter now! Instead let's join hands and

LET’S DRINK SOME BEER AND TOAST TRUMP’S INDICTMENT!!!

cnn is reporting more than 30 counts!



Irish_Dem

(46,579 posts)
10. There was zero data to support the courts would do anything.
Thu Mar 30, 2023, 08:44 PM
Mar 2023

No presidents have been indicted for their crimes.
Trump has never been indicted for his crimes.

But yes I agree, it is a good thing.

Thank you to everyone who has spoken out insisting the criminal justice system to do their job.
Time to take a bow and celebrate.

TwilightZone

(25,429 posts)
4. Uh, no.
Thu Mar 30, 2023, 08:24 PM
Mar 2023

No one is going to make a decision of this nature based on the complaints of a message board. No one.

As far as apologies go, perhaps some people should learn a little patience and stop jumping to conclusions, then using those incorrect conclusions as a basis for attacking others. In the end, those who insisted that they were 100% correct that Trump would never be indicted look a little pretentious.

Just a thought.

msfiddlestix

(7,271 posts)
38. Is there no limit to your patience? Will it run out at the peak of the 2024 elections campaign
Sat Apr 1, 2023, 10:45 AM
Apr 2023

or on Election Day, or maybe the day after?

oh never mind.. this will all be forgotten about... because it will be ancient history by then.

 

Just A Box Of Rain

(5,104 posts)
7. I don't think anyone in a position of authority cares about (or is even aware of) DU.
Thu Mar 30, 2023, 08:39 PM
Mar 2023

The carping just lowered the morale of those who do post here.

Sorry.

ecstatic

(32,653 posts)
15. I'm not referring to us specifically but it was the sentiment
Thu Mar 30, 2023, 09:38 PM
Mar 2023

of the entire base which had an echo chamber effect that affects sitting congress members, etc. Adam Schiff is an attorney and even he complained and was very frustrated as well. It made a difference. Garland knew he couldn't sweep things under the rug. Same thing with Bragg who finally decided to do the right thing after multiple resignations and a book tour.

 

Just A Box Of Rain

(5,104 posts)
17. I don't think Bragg, Garland, or Smith give a damn about the kvetching either.
Thu Mar 30, 2023, 09:41 PM
Mar 2023

Nor do I think any of them--Garland included--had any desire to sweep things under the rug.

They want cases they can win. That what moves prosecutors.

Phoenix61

(16,994 posts)
18. This! Lots and lots of this.
Fri Mar 31, 2023, 03:08 AM
Mar 2023

We still don’t know what is happening outside of Bragg’s case. His office is so leak proof everyone thought Trump was going to skate because the grand jury was taking a 3 week break. No one even suggested it might be because they had finished the investigation and the only thing left to do was vote.

ecstatic

(32,653 posts)
27. "They want cases they can win"
Fri Mar 31, 2023, 08:34 AM
Mar 2023

And that was a major disagreement going way back to the impeachment debates. This is not business as usual--a high profile person committed crimes and everyone knows about it. It's not about what you can win in a situation like this, unless you want millions of people to lose faith in our justice system and our country in general. Either we have a system of laws or we don't.

 

Just A Box Of Rain

(5,104 posts)
30. "Everybody knows it" doesn't cut it legally.
Fri Mar 31, 2023, 09:57 AM
Mar 2023

Cases need to be proven on a rock-solid legal basis. To charge a former president and then lose the case at trial would embolden the right, give an opportunity for claims of political witch-hunt to appear more legitimate, and would also deflate everyone else.

Word is Bragg’s case is fully ready. That took time and hard work.

The carping and kvetching of those who have loudly claimed the indictments would never come were not helpful in any measure and those people were spectacularly wrong.

The reframing and gaslighting we can from those quarters expect is par for the course, but give me a break.

We have a system of laws. Part of that system is proving cases in court. And not thinking “everybody knows it” is an adequate or sufficient basis for prosecution.

emulatorloo

(44,072 posts)
39. If you shoot for the King, you better not miss.
Sat Apr 1, 2023, 10:50 AM
Apr 2023

Of course these prosecutors are very meticulous about putting cases together against Trump. They have to convince a Grand Jury to indict. They then have to convince a jury to convict.

They are not going to go into this with the carelessness that you apparently believed they should.

It isn’t rocket science.

This is what we told you, and we gave you evidence from the press about related court cases compelling witnesses to testify, and which witnesses were testifying before multiple Grand Juries.

Which you and others completely ignored.

msfiddlestix

(7,271 posts)
44. So tiring answering with the obvious, isn't it?
Sat Apr 1, 2023, 11:02 AM
Apr 2023

I sometimes wonder why some folks feel like that is an effective retort in this day of age when on line forums have become the public square, are actually read frequently by government agents, media, politicians etc.

ecstatic

(32,653 posts)
16. I'm not referring to us specifically but it was the sentiment
Thu Mar 30, 2023, 09:38 PM
Mar 2023

of the entire base which had an echo chamber effect that affects sitting congress members, etc. Adam Schiff is an attorney and even he complained and was very frustrated as well. It made a difference. Garland knew he couldn't sweep things under the rug. Same thing with Bragg who finally decided to do the right thing after multiple resignations and a book tour.

JHB

(37,157 posts)
8. Sarcasm: Why would anyone be skeptical, just because the last Republican to pay a price was Nixon?
Thu Mar 30, 2023, 08:40 PM
Mar 2023

And for him, not even full price. Ford's pardon prevented that.

People scolded and wondered why other people were "defeatist" or "debbie downers", because complicated cases take time to set up, but to use a WW2 submarine analogy, yes, you have to calculate your firing solution for the torpedo to hit, but in the end you need to actually fire it. After forty years of "keeping our powder dry" and other platitudes in the face of malfeasance by Republicans and crimes by the rich and influential, if you blame people for not having boundless faith that this time it would be different, maybe you're not as clear-headed as you may think you are.

In the end, three things count: Indictments, convictions, sentences.

Those torpedoes have to be launched, have to hit, and have to sink their targets. (The important targets, not the thousand replaceable flunkies around them.)

Today's a great day: The first torpedoes are away! More salvos will follow.

So, time for a cheer, but the fleet ain't sunk yet, and above all, now is not the time to go "neener neener" at the people who were unable to have complete faith this day would come. It's good to not be disappointed.

betsuni

(25,380 posts)
19. To me this means that the corrupted rigging bad people (everyone, pretty much, because everyone's
Fri Mar 31, 2023, 03:42 AM
Mar 2023

controlled by oligarchs or something) will do nothing until they get nervous about complaints and finally do their jobs. I don't get it.

Seems like the same accusations that Democrats need to be constantly criticized and threatened and pulled/pushed to the Left or they won't do anything because beholden to ____ and same as Republicans.

JustAnotherGen

(31,783 posts)
21. This was a new case
Fri Mar 31, 2023, 03:51 AM
Mar 2023

Vance was pursuing property valuation fraud.

Bragg saw the tax returns, and went right back to the beginning of the Campaign Finance violation.

Pecker knew it all. He was the key witness.

Meowmee

(5,164 posts)
22. Agree
Fri Mar 31, 2023, 04:08 AM
Mar 2023

I do think public pressure, and people like Schiff and others speaking out made a difference. But it may now be too late to stop him from running, and being installed in office again. I still have little hope he will ever face any real accountability for all of his terrible crimes.

Still it was a glimmer of hope.

No need to apologize for anything. For speaking the painfully obvious. For expecting that monster be stopped.

Finally someone had the courage to at least try.

We have been held hostage by this psycho killer and his supporters, which include the entire remaining R party, for far too long now.

Kaleva

(36,259 posts)
25. It's just speculation that complaining forced Bragg to do something
Fri Mar 31, 2023, 06:16 AM
Mar 2023

Same with Garland. Which implies neither looks at the facts but hold their fingers up in the air to see which way the wind is blowing and how strong

People are free to believe what they want. Be it public pressure forced Bragg and Garland into action or that Jesus is the Son of God.

 

ExWhoDoesntCare

(4,741 posts)
31. Well, you can think that if you want
Sat Apr 1, 2023, 04:31 AM
Apr 2023

But these are people who have overloaded plates as it is. It seems like people forget that this isn't the only case any of them are dealing with--they have plenty occupying their attention.

Plus, they always have someone mad at them about cases on their dockets. Having a significant percentage of the population mad at them over how they're handling cases sorta comes with the territory. They couldn't get anything done if they catered to even a small fraction of the complaints they get.

That's why I doubt that they gave much thought, if any, to the complaints about their handling of cases from assorted randos.

Hotler

(11,396 posts)
32. A lot of people not on DU feel the same way we do. I'm thinking public pressure helped
Sat Apr 1, 2023, 09:33 AM
Apr 2023

to light a fire. I feel that Biden and Garland were too nonchalant towards the 1/6 coup for my book. It's like they didn't really want the fight.

emulatorloo

(44,072 posts)
43. You have zero basis in fact to assert that.
Sat Apr 1, 2023, 11:00 AM
Apr 2023

Garland is doing his job. If you read newspapers, you would know that multiple Trump insiders have been compelled to testify because of lawsuits the DOJ filed with the courts. You would also know that there are multiple active Grand Juries hard at work looking at Trump’s crimes.

Hortensis

(58,785 posts)
34. Public sentiment and pressure are SUPPOSED to make a difference,
Sat Apr 1, 2023, 10:03 AM
Apr 2023

and do -- to those we elect to serve us in state and federal governments. Many people TOLD their representatives through various means of communication what they felt needed to be done. That is, they (we) took POSITIVE action.

That's extremely different from NEGATIVE complaining and whining to like personalities on social media of the sort that claims government's all corrupt, Garland's corrupt, Democrats are the same as Republicans, nothing ever changes, the courts are corrupt too, democracy's dead, and we're all slaves to people who want us to die, etc. No doubt some in this nation and abroad are paid to scrape up and weigh some typical truckloads of that product also, then run various formulaic evaluations to evaluate their progress, but their positive is not ours.

No doubt thoughtful statements that have become almost lost in typical threads on this subject were noticed by other DUers grateful for them.

As for the judicial system, let's remember that that is designed to avoid being influenced -- a hugely important matter of principle and function. Anyone who really thinks they somehow succeeded in influencing the DoJ's mission anyway might do better to be dismayed and hope they're wrong.

emulatorloo

(44,072 posts)
37. "We were so wrong about this, so let's move the goalposts and declare victory."
Sat Apr 1, 2023, 10:43 AM
Apr 2023

Every time I presented a fact-based counterargument based on what was going on in the courts and the existence of multiple active grand juries looking into Trumps crimes, I was told I better be prepared to take responsibility and admit I was wrong when Trump was not indicted.

Y’all said he would never be held accountable. You had no facts, only opinions and speculation. You didn't follow or absolutely dismissed court cases and reporting about witnesses testifying to Grand Juries.

You all were unequivocably wrong.

None of this matters now of course now that the first indictment has come down. As you say, Cheers!


I never expected an apology from anyone, even though one was continuously expected of me.

Take care.

ecstatic

(32,653 posts)
57. Just to clarify, the never-indict naysayers are a separate group
Sat Apr 1, 2023, 07:33 PM
Apr 2023

I was and still am among the "do something now" and "work faster" crowd. You know, the whole democracy on the line thing. It is an emergency.

We're all still waiting for accountability for the attempted coup, but the never-indict viewpoint is not something that I can or would ever accept at this point. That group has it a lot easier though because they don't have to worry about being disappointed.

emulatorloo

(44,072 posts)
58. Thanks for the clarification.
Sat Apr 1, 2023, 07:36 PM
Apr 2023

Nonetheless the hurry-up posts also ignored news that contradicted their opinions.

Like I say it doesn't matter anymore, so cheers!

bigtree

(85,977 posts)
40. not one of these prosecutors who have assembled grand juries and are feeding them evidence
Sat Apr 1, 2023, 10:54 AM
Apr 2023

...did so because of this nattering at them.

What a narcissistic view, that badgering them on social media to do the job they're already doing made them care more.

This is a Justice Dept. leadership which is staffed with career professionals handpicked by the AG President Biden chose to do the job, and by the Special Prosecutor Garland handpicked.

It's pure fantasy to believe their work needed the deriding and derision that comes with the unfounded, unevidenced criticisms of inaction. The complaints are complete sophistry about the details and direction of investigations that are secret, save the public reports that come from court action and witness statements.

The complaints have been a sham, and no one should believe bashing the DOJ for fantastical reasons (riding them, even as they've reportedly come to the end of their grand jury probes) is any different from actual opposition to their work.

Most of the effect of the nonfactual complaints has been to spread cynicism and apathy by falsely representing the investigations according to individual angst or whatever motivates someone to hurl insults at them without a clue about what they've actually done or are doing right now.

You can't get so much as a sentence describing the actual investigation from almost every one of the grousers. They offer nothing but this attempt to divide people actually concerned with prosecutions from the people carrying that out, and it's just anti-prosecutor in the end.

It's not support for the actual investigations, because most strain to distort and demean AG Garland. It's transparently just attacks on the actual process, which does NOTHING but encourage more of the same. Just the height of delusion, if you actually believe all of that is influencing these professionals.

If grousers had their way, Smith and Garland would WALK AWAY from their grand juries and jump into court half-assed. And we all know that when we do get indictments, the complaints and cynicism will just shift to asserting that there will never be convictions.

It's just poor advocacy to do little but make unfounded complaints about your own party's AGs as they work right in front of us to investigate and prosecute. I personally don't think it's a coincidence that EVERY report of progress is greeted with this same note of cynicism and outright disbelief in the legal process unfolding before our eyes.

I don't call arbitrary opposition advocacy. It just isn't.

And now that an indictment has emerged, anyone who engaged in bashing prosecutors doesn't get to take credit for support for the result they claimed wasn't in process, or wouldn't happen.

 

Just A Box Of Rain

(5,104 posts)
42. Some people seem to have studied "Re-framing 101"
Sat Apr 1, 2023, 10:56 AM
Apr 2023

Never admit being wrong. Change the narrative after the fact.

And take credit where none is due.

Hortensis

(58,785 posts)
45. For most it's no doubt sincere.
Sat Apr 1, 2023, 12:03 PM
Apr 2023

It seems that social media's displaying constant proof that our brains can be programmed to reliably produce negative conclusions from any input. And what more helpful environment for that?

I worry about the future with this a result of whole nations of people having to live through scary, troubling times.

But seen that way, being able to take credit for, thus save, some positives before they're restyled by the negativism trap may actually be a good thing.

 

Just A Box Of Rain

(5,104 posts)
46. My conclusion is that such tendencies are the byproducts of deliberate tactics of populist movements
Sat Apr 1, 2023, 12:10 PM
Apr 2023

which seek to destroy any institutions that defend (and are essential to) liberal democracy--such as a free press--to further authoritarian populism.

As a Democrat and a committed liberal, I find the "Age of Populism" to be very threatening to my values and principles.

It is a worldwide threat, and a domestic threat.

Be ever vigilant.

Hortensis

(58,785 posts)
47. Oh, me too! +1000. The populist threats are scary-real,
Sat Apr 1, 2023, 12:38 PM
Apr 2023

and all aggressively on the attack against our government. I wanted to acknowledge those who want us to do well. who aren't drawn to the destruction populist negativism calls for.

 

Just A Box Of Rain

(5,104 posts)
48. Those of us who are not "drawn to the destruction populist negativism calls for" had better become
Sat Apr 1, 2023, 12:42 PM
Apr 2023

less passive in our resistance, methinks.

This shit is real and we would not be the first society to be undone by authoritarian populism.

H2O Man

(73,511 posts)
49. On the 25th
Sat Apr 1, 2023, 01:04 PM
Apr 2023

of last month, I posted an essay regarding a study that Erich Fromm did in Germany in 1930. At that time, the majority of the people were opposed to the nazi party. Fromm's study was to evaluate if the country could withstand the threat.

He found that 15% ofthe people had a democratic character structure, 10% had an authoritarian character structure, and 75% had a combination of the two. Character, as Heraclitus noted, is the fate of man. It determines what ideas he will have, and both how and if he will act on those ideas. And we know what happen in Germany in the years after Fromm's study.

I don't think it is the long arm of coincidence wrenching itself out of socket to apply Fromm's study to this country today. And as you note, we are witnessing the same dynamics around the globe.

 

Just A Box Of Rain

(5,104 posts)
51. It is also notable that during the rise of Nazism in 1930s Germany that liberal democracy
Sat Apr 1, 2023, 01:14 PM
Apr 2023

was attacked by populist movements on both the far-right (Hitler's brownshirts) and by the populist far-left.

That includes the KDP (the German Communist Party) lead by Ernst Thälmann, and their sub-branch Antifaschistische Aktion (aka Antifa) which declared that Germany's liberal Social Democrats were "social fascists."

Antifa's primary enemy in Germany was NOT the Nazi Party, but rather the liberal SPD, who they declared were fascists.

The SPD was roughly analogous to the liberalism of the Democratic Party in the US and--if anything--was a bit more to "the left."

Too few people seem aware of the actual history.

H2O Man

(73,511 posts)
53. It's interesting .....
Sat Apr 1, 2023, 01:41 PM
Apr 2023

the points that you are making bring me back to the second-half of the 1970s, and discussions I had with one of my mentors, Rubin "Hurricane" Carter. I was one of the two people he communicated with in what others called his "Buddha phase." In long letters, he frequently noted that this country was on a path that would lead to the same phase that Germany was on when nazism rose to full power.

He pointe out that all organic life on earth, from the smallest individual units to bee hives to empires, either grows or decays. And that decay is internal, and in human societies, the pathogens are always ignorance and hatred.

Years later, when we were relaxing with my sons, nephews, and a couple of their friends, Rubin was encouraging these young men to move -- even to Canada -- to escape what was on the horizon in the US. He was disturbed by Bush/Cheney ..... he had met with Bush when he was governor, and said W was giddy while discussing the death penalty ..... and was telling the guys what was to come. But the guys said that they thought this country was worth fighting for.

It is up to us, I suppose.

 

Just A Box Of Rain

(5,104 posts)
55. Count me as one who thinks it is worth fighting for liberal democracy in this country.
Sat Apr 1, 2023, 01:51 PM
Apr 2023

God knows were are not perfect. The sins of the past are considerable, and the present leaves us with much to me done.

There is a phrase used (especially by liberal-progressive Jews) called Tikkun Olam . Are you familiar with it? Translates roughly into working to repair the world. It informs my thinking.

The "repair" can often happen in small acts of kindness. In fact, big actions--while certainly not excluded from Tikkun Olam are rarely the norm. Rather healing typically comes from the aggregation of small acts of kindness, good deeds, and ethical behaviors.

The struggle is that while some endeavor to repair things, others seem as just intent on advancing destruction.

The human condition, I'm afraid.

H2O Man

(73,511 posts)
56. Yes.
Sat Apr 1, 2023, 02:34 PM
Apr 2023

I'm going to speculate that you may be familiar with "Bend the Arc: Jewish Action." (I could be wrong, as I often am.) I think it is the best example of how we repair -- meaning heal -- the world. That saying is much the same as the Haudenosaunee's saying that the Creator's favorite music is the song of the smallest bird. That isn't limited to chickadees! It is the conscious effort to be kind, for it is the smallest of actions that combine to make larger ones.

It is the higher meaning of the first sentence in the esoteric teaching in Genesis 11 ...... not that everyone around the globe spoke one specific language, but that there was actually a phase in humanity where people put "Good" first. But then they traveled away from the East -- God -- to a plain, or lower level. They replaced "stone" with man-made bricks, and used slime to build a tower unto themselves, which had to fall .... and then groups could not understand one another. That sounds like what we are witnessing today, does it not.

The only thing that can change the direction we are heading in is people. And people can only change -- evolve -- consciously. One can see the damage that the unconscious behaviors are doing today. And that requires the conscious efforts that you mention -- being a good human being, even if it is difficult. Especially when i is difficult.

I'll end my rant with something that came from a talk Rubin gave at Binghamton University, about his conscious effort to change. He had introduced my family & I to the audience, and one professor contacted me a few days later. She was writing a book on the abuse she endured as a child, and how it was unforgivable. She was stuck in it, as surely as Rubin had been stuck in a prison cell. She asked me if I could get Rubin to add a chapter. He described his journey while incarcerated, and how being bitter was a prison within the prison. He ended with this paragraph, about the USA:

"Hate can only produce hate. That is why all these wars are going on, all of this insanity. There's too much ager in the U.S. People are too afraid, too numbed out. We need to wipe out all this hatred, fear, distrust, and violence. We need to understand, forgive, and love."

Hortensis

(58,785 posts)
50. And techniques using internet communications are
Sat Apr 1, 2023, 01:12 PM
Apr 2023

like nothing before. This has been going on for years now, though, and most people have been too strong so far (!), though if attempts to tap one vulnerability doesn't work there are others. At base, though, all they need is for people to not vote Democratic.

 

Just A Box Of Rain

(5,104 posts)
52. Convincing people that the Democratic Party is "corporatist" (social fascists) and
Sat Apr 1, 2023, 01:19 PM
Apr 2023

encouraging people not to vote or to vote Green is all part of the plan.

I went and read the web postings over at splinter-group JPR.

It is all very clear.

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