DOJ is collecting evidence of Espionage Act violation(s).

[kpete]

Reup: WaPo reports DOJ has gotten "fresh evidence" of obstruction in the stolen doc case. What they show is DOJ is collecting evidence of Espionage Act violation(s).

DOJ has obtained substantial evidence since August to prove the probable cause suspicions already laid out in their August warrant affidavit. You don’t search the former President’s beach resort without awfully good probable cause, and they were able to show substantial reason to believe that Trump had boxes moved to his residence after he received the May 11 subpoena, where he sorted out some he wanted to keep, eight months ago.

They’ve just gotten a whole lot more proof that they were right, since.

...........

All of which is to say that WaPo not only reported that DOJ has collected more evidence to prove what DOJ already suspected when they did the search on August 8, but they’ve been collecting information that would go beyond that, to a hypothetical Espionage Act charge.

Charging a former President with violating the Espionage Act is still an awfully big lift, and in the same way that charging obstruction for impeding NARA’s proper administration of the Presidential Records Act would invite an appeal, charging 18 USC 793(e) in DC would invite a challenge on venue (and charging it in Florida would risk spending the next three years fighting Aileen Cannon). But in addition to developing more evidence to prove the suspicions that they already substantiated in August, WaPo describes Jack Smith’s team asking the kinds of questions — about specific documents that might be charged as individual violations of the Espionage Act — that you’d ask before charging it.

https://www.emptywheel.net/2023/04/03/the-espionage-act-evidence-wapo-spins-as-obstruction-evidence/

Link to tweet

?s=20

[Botany]

1. America has had 3 people who were found guilty of espionage @ the level might very well be @ ...

... those documents and we executed 2 of them the Rosenbergs and the other is FBI Agent
Robert Hansen and he is doing 15 back to back to back life terms @ the US Super Max Prison
in Colorado.

[Fiendish Thingy]

9. The Rosenberg case is quite different to what we know about Trump's case

We don’t yet know if Trump provided information to a foreign country. We do know that he intentionally withheld documents that could be damaging to the US if shared with another country.

[Botany]

10. The Rosenbergs were found guilty of espionage and executed. I used to believe that they were ...

... the victims of unfair prosecution but in the 1990s Mikhail Gorbachev opened up the KGB files
and the Rosenbergs were plenty dirty especially Julius and Ethel was well aware of what he was
doing.

"We don’t yet know if Trump provided information to a foreign country." Yes we do. He gave
Lavrov and Kislyak top secret information about an Israeli agent inside of ISIS in Syria in Jan.
of 2017 in the oval office. And Jared gave MBS top secret information about Khashogii which
led to his murder by a Saudi hit squad.

[ecstatic]

13. +1000. nt

[Fiendish Thingy]

14. You are wrong

Trump’s disclosures to the Russians occurred while he was president and had the power to declassify information.

Smith’s investigation covers Trump’s actions after his term ends. For that period, we do not know if Trump shared the information with any foreign country.

The potential Espionage act violations being considered for Trump do not carry the death penalty as a potential sentence. To compare Trump’s crimes with the Rosenberg case based on what we know at present is just nonsense.

[Escurumbele]

16. But he did not declassify the information, even if he thought of it with his great mind.

At least I don't know of him declassifying that information, is there a record of him doing it?

[Fiendish Thingy]

31. By speaking it

Declassifying documents is a separate process, but by speaking as president, the information became declassified.

No serious person, and certainly no one at DOJ, is claiming Trump will be prosecuted for that act.

[Escurumbele]

69. That doesn't seem to be true according to the following article.

snip
In all cases, however, a formal procedure is required so governmental agencies know with certainty what has been declassified and decisions memorialized. A federal appeals court in a 2020 Freedom of Information Act case, New York Times v. CIA, underscored that point: “Declassification cannot occur unless designated officials follow specified procedures,” the court said.

[link:https://www.americanbar.org/news/abanews/aba-news-archives/2022/10/fact-check-presidential-authority/|

[Fiendish Thingy]

75. Indeed- yet, no one is suggesting Trump will be prosecuted

Trump will not be prosecuted for revealing classified information while president. He’s not the first president to do so, either.

[inthewind21]

76. Exactly how

do you KNOW this? Are you privy to detailed information of what the DOJ is doing? It's a bit bold to claim you KNOW what will or will not happen.

[Fiendish Thingy]

77. OK, Ok...

No one is publicly acknowledging that Trump is being investigated for revealing classified information while president, even though DOJ has acknowledged numerous other crimes they are investigating…

So, to avoid appearing absolutely certain of any particular outcome, let me rephrase:

In my opinion, I think it is highly unlikely that Trump will be prosecuted for revealing classified information while president, specifically the incident involving the two Russian “diplomats” in the Oval Office in 2017.

Now, if information surfaces that he was giving information directly to Putin, well, that would be different…

[Botany]

22. All 3 cases have to do with espionage against America and Trump might very well be at that level too

TFG had documents @ Merde a Logo marked TK that covered our spy satellites and no doubt it had information
about our satellites that were and most likely still are over Russian/Ukraine. I have a family member who worked
with remote sensing aka satellites and to this day he could be arrested and put in prison if he talks about what he
did and what he knows.

[Fiendish Thingy]

34. I encourage you to read the Espionage Act

It covers a lot of ground, and isn’t as simplistic as you portray it.

You can then double down and continue to compare Trump’s known crimes with the Rosenberg’s at the risk of your own public embarrassment.

[Botany]

45. The only thing I tried to say was that the Rosenbergs were found guilty of espionage and Trump

might very well be put on trial for espionage too.

[cos dem]

23. Not necessarily true

I don't know the exact information in question (none of us do. It's classified). However, the president can only declassify things that are classified under executive order. Some information is classified by statute, and those the president cannot declassify at will. They include things like nuclear secrets and intel. Information on agents would normally fall under intel classification rules.

Furthermore, this is intel belonging to a foreign country (Israel, in this alleged case). If that's the case, you'd think the country who's information was released would be a little more upset.

[Fiendish Thingy]

32. Trump will not be prosecuted for classified disclosures while president

That is a fantasy.

[cos dem]

40. Never said he would be. But that doesn't mean it was legal.

[Farmer-Rick]

29. Good points

If you think TFG did Not make money off those classified documents then you need to join the MAGA cult.

Now, I hope DOJ can prove it. I would imagine that will require them talking to Saudis and Russians. Those seem to be Trump's and Kushner's favorite money pots.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

52. Not seeing hard evidence TFG made $$ makes one a MAGAt?

[MayReasonRule]

36. What A Well Informed And Well Crafted Comment!! Well Done Y'all, You're Dead On Point!

[Botany]

47. "What A Well Informed And Well Crafted Comment!! Well Done Y'all, You're Dead On Point!"

I am really wonderful aren't I? The only thing bigger then my skillful posts is my modesty.

[MayReasonRule]

49. LoL. Embracing Your Ability To Communicate Well Facilitates Further Productive Communication

Humility is a recognition of what one is and what one is not

It is wholly proper for you to recognize your own intellectual acumen. That's merely humility.

Decrying or inflating one's attributes are both equally destructive.

Humility - It's what you are.
Which is why I love the one's I'm with, starting with myself, so that I may share my honest loving self with all of those around me.

[Botany]

56. May you live by this simple motto:

Everybody should get up in the morning with this thought in their brains, "What can I do to make
MayReasonRule life better today."

[MayReasonRule]

57. Right on y'all

[Trueblue1968]

66. Executed ?????

[Paper Roses]

37. When I saw you post mentioning the Espionage Act, my first thought was the Rosenberg case.

It will be interesting to see how this new information develops. Why would the orange AH go thru the Docs and keep some of them and lie about it? Plans for the future or evidence of actions already done?

I'm old enough to remember the Rosenberg case. They were put to death for their crimes.

[Traildogbob]

18. Hanssen

In Solitary confinement still to this day. And sold docs to guess who……Russia.
I would be happy if trump would be put in ole Robbie’s cell. Both could fight over who bets a word in edgewise.
And an FBI agent was just recently busted. Pretty convenient the silence of that case. No mention of trial or anything.
Doesn't take much to figure out how Russia gets all the comp on politicians they own, Graham.

[Botany]

33. That NYC FBI agent McGongal, who was just arrested and he was being paid by Russian oligarch

.... Oleg Deripaska who it now turns was just footing the bills for Russian chaos agent Tony DeVolder aka
George Santos.

[Traildogbob]

39. How to reach

The GQO version of the American Dream. Rich and never work for a penny.
And you can find a buyer on Twitter.

[Botany]

42. McGongal got the NY Times to put on its front page something like FBI sees no links between ...

... Trump and Russia a few days before the 2016 election even though the NYC FBI office knew about Trump
and Russia. And he did that as he was Putin's payroll. He also got the then FBI director, Comey to reopen
the HRC and her email bullshit too.

[Hermit-The-Prog]

70. Oleg Deripaska is MoscowMitch's buddy

https://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow/watch/the-oligarch-raided-by-the-fbi-and-how-mitch-mcconnell-got-the-moscow-mitch-nickname-124008517583

[Botany]

73. And McConnell was well aware of Russia's work in the 2016 election to install Trump as POTUS

As was McCarthy, Scalise, and Ryan and all of them worked to keep that information hidden.

[MLAA]

41. Movie (factionalized) about the spy Hansen

I enjoyed this movie.

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0401997/

[Skittles]

71. Chris Cooper did a great job

yes the movie is a bit dramatized....for example, the younger guy, he always knew what his mission was, to take down the traitor Hanssen (he didn't find out later) - but the movie is very riveting to watch

[MLAA]

72. Yes, Cooper was excellent.

[tanyev]

2. I'm gonna need more champagne.

[Joinfortmill]

27. Me too.

[Tommy Carcetti]

3. The Manhattan Case is merely a spring training game...

...for what's to come to Trump legally.

[gab13by13]

20. You posted 2 very important words,

"to come." A DOJ Trump trial for any crime will take 4 to 5 years, IMO.

E. Jean Carrolls' civil case began in 2019 and her trial is next month.

[AllaN01Bear]

26. i figured that the manhattan case would be a wellspring of cases .

good for stormy .

[Lovie777]

4. Oh gosh...............

I could have figured that out.

[BComplex]

5. I don't want to sound like a conspiracy theorist, BUT....

anyone that thinks Donald Trump did NOT make $$ off those extremely sensitive documents is delusional. That's all the man cares about, or has ever cared about.

[Escurumbele]

17. I tend to agree with you, but I am not biased about the buffoon, its just that the worst one can

think of him is never the worst.

[Traildogbob]

19. Hanssen

Was paid millions.

[MLAA]

44. Just read up on him.

They accounted for $1.4M

FBI set up 300 people to watch him and catch him in the act including an assistant who later wrote a book. It was fictionalized into this movie. I enjoyed the movie a few years back.

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0401997/

[Traildogbob]

46. I first heard of

Him from that movie this last year. It was released in 2007 And the NY agent was arrested right after I saw the movie. So I stared reading all I could about Hanssen. The movie was good. And the agent that brought him down was a rookie, but was a real brilliant young man. He left after the arrest. Hassen was a hard core GQO religious wack, just like the root of GQO today, That claim sole position of patriotism.

[MLAA]

50. Shocking how much damage he did.

Hanssen sold thousands of classified documents to the KGB that detailed U.S. strategies in the event of nuclear war, developments in military weapons technologies, and aspects of the U.S. counterintelligence program.[4] He was spying at the same time as Aldrich Ames in the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA). Both Ames and Hanssen compromised the names of KGB agents working secretly for the U.S., some of whom were executed for their betrayal. Hanssen also revealed a multimillion-dollar eavesdropping tunnel built by the FBI under the Soviet Embassy. After Ames's arrest in 1994, some of these intelligence breaches remained unsolved. The FBI paid $7 million to a KGB agent to obtain a file on an anonymous mole, whom the FBI later identified as Hanssen through fingerprint and voice analysis.

Hanssen was arrested on February 18, 2001, at Foxstone Park,[5] near his home in the Washington, D.C., suburb of Vienna, Virginia, after leaving a package of classified materials at a dead drop site. He was charged with selling U.S. intelligence documents to the Soviet Union and subsequently Russia for more than $1.4 million in cash and diamonds over 22 years.[6] To avoid the death penalty, Hanssen pleaded guilty to 14 counts of espionage and one of conspiracy to commit espionage.[7][8] He was sentenced to 15 life terms without the possibility of parole.

[Traildogbob]

54. Excellent

Post. Way too many people never heard of him. I called Thom Hartmann to bring him up after the recent arrest and HE never heard of Hanssen. And Thom is one in the smartest people I ever witnessed.
I am gonna copy and paste your post fir my own reference to GQP family that are only concerned about Hunters damn laptop.
Thanks!

[Farmer-Rick]

35. I've always believed everyone has a price

Especially in our capitalist society. Without money, you and your family could suffer and die. That's the bottom line.

But there are many ways to get money, at least enough to survive on.

So the question becomes would you betray all the people of the United States to get a lot of money.

For Trump and Kushner, and a lot of filthy rich people, that answer is why not?

But for most of the rest of us it would be such high price, that no one, even filthy rich Russians and Saudis, could afford to pay that huge of a price.

[moonscape]

64. You're not a conspiracy theorist. A conspiracy

theorist believes he didn’t make money off them.

[BComplex]

74. Wow.

Good point!

[onecaliberal]

6. Everyone had to know this is what he was doing. The question is, will there be consequences?

[Roisin Ni Fiachra]

7. The deeper and wider the DOJ digs, the more bodies

they will find.

[Kid Berwyn]

8. Wonder where they got THAT idea?

[AllaN01Bear]

28. please , not so early in the morning.

[Kid Berwyn]

58. Sorry. Behind Lardass stands Lavrov.

Sergei Lavrov is Russia’s Foreign Minister, Putin’s chum in charge of all their overseas diplomacy.



We wouldn’t have known about the March and May, 2017 visits were it not for official Russian state media TASS.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2017/05/11/russians-fail-disclose-its-official-photographer-works-tass-news-agency/101543498/

[lindysalsagal]

11. Hell, yes. Espionage. He's said on video that he owns it all.

Dumbass.

[ecstatic]

12. So how is this usually handled?

I'm just curious, not complaining. If there is credible evidence that this is going on, does the DOJ usually just stand by for another year or so collecting more evidence while the suspect continues to commit acts of espionage?

[Traildogbob]

21. The GQP

Is now allowing and calling for Firing squads. Not a bad idea, being it is constitutional the apply to espionage.

[Beastly Boy]

25. "Stand by for another year or so collecting more evidence" is an oxymoron.

DOJ either stands by or collects evidence. If it stands by, it doesn't take any additional actions which include collecting evidence. If it collects evidence, it doesn't stand by. And DOJ, as we all should be fully aware of by now, does not stand by.

So yeah, you are complaining. Without any legitimate grounds for complaints.

[NewJeffCT]

15. emptywheel/Marci Wheeler is one of the better reads on Twitter

Lawyer that is very sharp & very knowledgeable & has a great memory.

[Joinfortmill]

24. It's Espionage. We all know it in our gut. Trump is a Traitor.

[orthoclad]

30. Kushner's $2B from Saudis?

Not hearing much about that.

[ancianita]

53. These have probably shown up on Latest Breaking News

Last April
https://www.nytimes.com/2022/04/10/us/jared-kushner-saudi-investment-fund.html

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2022/04/11/after-trumps-controversial-courtship-saudis-2b-jared-kushner/

Last June
https://www.reuters.com/world/us/us-house-panel-probing-saudi-arabias-investment-kushners-firm-2022-06-02/

https://www.axios.com/2022/06/03/house-jared-kushner-firm-saudi-investment-investigation

Last November
https://www.newsweek.com/jared-kushner-saudi-arabia-deal-resurfaces-gop-republicans-hunter-biden-investigation-1760458

This past February

Link to tweet

https://www.jpost.com/international/article-731612

[orthoclad]

60. There should be weekly reports

of the investigation(s), imho. The House investigation is ended now, of course, but did the materials go to DOJ?

That was really bold. $2B. And we're not hearing much about all the intelligence sources who disappeared, either.

Thanks for the links.


Per Reuters - Rep. Carolyn Maloney, D NY wrote a letter to Kushner.

The Committee on Oversight and Reform is investigating whether you (Kushner) have improperly traded on your government position to obtain billions of dollars from the Saudi government and whether your personal financial interests improperly influenced U.S. foreign policy during the administration of your father-in-law, former President Trump

From the Newsweek link:

Citizens for Ethics, a nonpartisan watchdog, tweeted: "Saudi Arabia handed $2,000,000,000 to Jared Kushner when he left the White House. A Saudi-backed golf tournament has been buoying Trump's struggling golf empire. Right before he announced he was running for president, Trump's family business signed a deal with a Saudi firm."

My net hygiene blocks twitter, so I don't know what happened in February. Is this still being pursued?

[ancianita]

61. Meaning?

Which documents are you referring to? The Jan 6 Committees documents went entirely to the DOJ.

If you're talking about Kushner, how do we even know there's an investigation into it? I haven't read anything about that. All these sources only mention "ethics experts" and some referral to the SEC.

No news that I know of from either the SEC or from the DOJ.

It could turn out that certain withheld docs by Trump related to the Saudis. For that we'll have to wait until there's a filed indictment.

[orthoclad]

67. House Oversight Committee

from the Reuters link you gave me, were investigating Kushner. I quoted from that link.

To quote again: "improperly traded on your government position to obtain billions of dollars from the Saudi government and whether your personal financial interests improperly influenced U.S. foreign policy" re: Kushner.

But the Covfeferacy now has the House since that article was written, which is why I hope DOJ has the results of any investigation into Kushner.

Follow the money.

[ancianita]

68. Ah. Now I see. Thanks for clarifying. Yes, I hope the Oversight records of the 117th

haven't been trashed by the 118th rethugs. You're absolutely right. This could be more corruption that's been delayed until the coverup can succeed.

It could be, however, that the DOJ and Congressional Record has copies of that material.

[Roland99]

38. Because he is BROKE! He's in debt beyond his eyeballs to myriad entities

He's been selling info from top secret intel for YEARS for money and for bargaining power

He will go down as likely the most corrupt, grifting traitor in the history of the United States

[Takket]

43. Wow that's huge

I’m extremely frustrated it is taking so long but if they can nail him on the espionage act for the extra time, that is well worth it.

[Beachnutt]

48. Could trump be caught red handed

selling or attempting to sell top secret info ?

[Enoki33]

51. This, much more than anything else, is

the report l have been waiting to read. Espionage charges are what really scares him, and the fact that by it's very nature CI works in the dark. Much of the paper trail to his past actions he was so desperately and illegally searching for isn't there. He is going to be slowly barbecued.

[Stinky The Clown]

55. Keeping with the porn star theme, is espionage not the money shot?

[LetMyPeopleVote]

59. This is the best part... 18 USC Ch. 2071

TFG clearly violated this statute

Link to tweet

[ancianita]

62. It's the best part until Smith can show that the obstruction served to obstruct further

Espionage Act crimes. Not just the mere stealing and concealing from the government. It depends on the content of some of those concealed documents legally recovered by the FBI and whoever else.

It's looking more and more like he might have that evidence.

[UTUSN]

63. K&R

[2naSalit]

65. They had better be.