DUers I'm trying to learn the preferred usage of pronouns for...

[brush]

transgender people and others who don't don't relate to him or her.

A recent post used him/her/them and I asked the poster if this was the preferred usage as I'm trying to learn myself.

Help.

[leftieNanner]

1. I often use they them for everyone

Unless I know them personally.

[TheRealNorth]

3. That's probably the safest way to go.

Or maybe, "That person"

[sarisataka]

2. IME it depends

On the individual. I know one who uses they/them and another that prefers he/him

[Scrivener7]

4. I just ask the person what they prefer. But I guess I go to "they" by default till I know.

[Hugh_Lebowski]

5. Feel like if you always just use the person's name

or gender-neutral terms like 'you/they/them' you can't really go wrong.

And I know I'm not an expert, but I know a couple trans women, and for both of them the biggest issue is when people purposefully misgender them, esp loved ones who know damn well the pronoun they prefer.

They're both pretty forgiving and don't let it ruin their day if some random person does so inadvertently/without malicious intent.

But that's sample size of 2.

[brush]

7. Specifically, what are the pronouns they prefer?

[Hugh_Lebowski]

13. She, of course

but they both went thru male puberty and neither is ... shall we say ... entirely convincing as females? They're both computer nerds like me, and are 35 and 45, roughly.

If they don't decide on a given day to spend every moment outside their house wearing makeup and clothes that look obviously 'feminine' ... they kinda accept they'll be misgendered inadvertently from time to time.

A lot of men don't really think about how much work is involved in appearing to be obviously female ... every single moment. And especially when you're not biologically female. That only adds to the work involved.

[BlackSkimmer]

22. I'm going to the store later. I won't be wearing make-up.

I'll probably be wearing shorts and a polo shirt. Right now, I'm wearing sweats and a flannel shirt, with a ball cap.

I'm a woman, and I make no effort to be "appearing to be obviously female". I cannot IMAGINE doing "work" to be who I am.

Growing up as a slim and muscular young female athlete, I have been called sir more times than I can count. I've never been insulted by it. I usually feel sorry for the other person when they realize it.

As I've grown older, that doesn't happen as often, but a young man attempting to sell streaming services at a store the other day tried to get my attention and called out sir! I waved, smiled, and kept on walking.

[Tree-Hugger]

6. It depends on the individual

Some people prefer they/them and others prefer a mix such as she/they or he/they. Some use completely different pronouns altogether, though those are much less common. The safest thing is too simply ask the individual. If you can't, they/them is a safe bet. 99.9% of people won't be offended and most are very understanding when you make a mistake. Just correct yourself and move on. The problem comes when people purposefully use incorrect pronouns or deadname someone.

[brush]

8. Sorry, what is "deadnaming"?

Is it asking too much to use the pronouns in sentence?

[Tree-Hugger]

14. Deadnaming

Deadnaming is using the name the person had (usually their birth name) before their transition. For example, let's say someone is named George at birth. They then transition to female and rename themselves Samantha. If you were to call them "George," anyway that is deadnaming. It's like when people refer to Caitlyn Jenner by her old name before he transition. Some people do it on accident, but deadnaming is usually done maliciously to show you don't respect the transition.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

9. Every trans person has their own preference, just like any cis or nonbinary person does.

Alex tells you she prefers she/her. So when you talk about her, you say, "This is my friend Alex; she likes cookies."

Jules tells you he prefers he/him. So when you talk about him, you say, "Do you know my friend Jules? He works with Alex at the cookie shop."

Sheigh tells you they prefer they/them. So when you talk about them, you say, "I met your friend Sheigh yesterday; they were super cool and I enjoyed talking with them."

Brynne says she prefers she/they. So when you talk about her, you might stick with one or the other, or switch back and forth; it's harder to get it "wrong" in a case like this.

Deadnaming is when someone has changed their name during their transition and you actively use their old name in an effort to deny the new reality. It's as rude as calling anyone by the wrong name on purpose.

[brush]

10. This is perfect, so helpful. Thank you WG.

Last edited Thu Apr 13, 2023, 11:52 PM - Edit history (1)

The way you wrote out the sentence usage is textbook.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

12. You're welcome. Keep in mind, in English, this generally an issue only when you're talking *about*

someone and not directly to them. But in any conversation, we may talk about other people in front of them, so it's important to pay attention and get it right. As long as you make an effort and don't dwell on it too much if you screw up, it's fine. "So when I was talking to Alex, I told him -- whoops, her, sorry -- that she needed to make more of those cookies." That's it.

[Ms. Toad]

11. You need to ask.

There are lots of different pronoun sets. Many enby (NB/non-binary) individuals have very strong preferences, so you need to ask.

Most of my enby friends go by they/them/theirs/themselves or ze/zir/zirs/zirself. But there are other variations.

(The set you mentioned would not be acceptable to any of my trans or non-binary friends because it mixes genders and is too reminiscent of far too frequent gender insult that uses a male and female pronoun stuck together.)

[brush]

16. Your last graph is why i'm asking.

[muriel_volestrangler]

18. To be clear, the set mentioned was about a hypothetical person of any gender

It was just someone covering all bases for all possibilities (it was in a discussion unrelated to gender), not what be used for any one person.

[Ms. Toad]

19. Since I didn't see the other references I was responding to what was asked here.

And that was about a person who is nonbinary (does not relate to him or her). Using gendered pronouns in that situation is in bad form.

[muriel_volestrangler]

21. Yeah, the OP here is not worded well

The original question was just 'is the "them" the preferred pronoun for transgender people and others who don't go by him or her?'.

https://www.democraticunderground.com/100217821626#post46

[DemocraticPatriot]

15. I am sometimes confused,

although I am sympathetic...


I believe that everyone should be addressed as they wish.

[meadowlander]

17. Ask them.

There isn't a preferred pronoun for all transgender people. People identify different ways and have different preferences.

What you are trying to do is avoid triggering gender dysphoria for the other person. That's the feeling of anxiety and unease people feel at being misgendered. Imagine if you turned up at work one day and suddenly everyone was using the wrong name and pronouns for you - eventually it gets really disorientating, like a form of gaslighting except it's everyone around you all the time. This can trigger mental health issues like anxiety and depression for the trans person.

So if someone is a trans-woman they likely prefer to be referred to as she and feel dysphoric when you call them he.

If someone is a trans-man they likely prefer to be referred to as he and feel dysphoric when you call them she.

If someone is non-binary they may not care what you call them or they may feel dysphoric with either he or she and prefer they or something else.

Also, not all trans people transition and not all trans people are at the same stage of transitioning. I'm a trans man but haven't medically transitioned yet and am waiting to socially transition (change my name and pronouns) until after my physical appearance catches up a bit. Then there's another process of legally transitioning. So I identify as a man but would feel dysphoric being called "he" because I still look and dress female and have a female name and frankly don't want the hassle of having to explain it all the time. I want to rip the band-aid off in one convenient package. But that doesn't mean I'm not trans now. Some people choose to never transition but that doesn't mean that they aren't still trans.

Different trans people are also dysphoric about different things. Some people are really dysphoric about their names and pronouns while others are more dysphoric about specific body parts, their voice, their clothes, the way they walk, etc. So you don't know what's triggering for other people unless you talk to them and then just respect whatever they say.

Most trans people aren't there to play pronoun police and can tell the difference between someone well-intentioned who is slipping up or a bit clueless versus someone being a jag off because they don't respect us.

[Ms. Toad]

20. Thank you! N/t

Last edited Fri Apr 14, 2023, 10:31 AM - Edit history (1)