Can a doorbell ring justify a 'stand your ground' shooting?

[BlueWaveNeverEnd]

JEFFERSON CITY, Mo. (AP) — Andrew Lester had already gone to bed when the doorbell rang a little before 10 p.m. He got up, grabbed a gun and went to check it out. Seeing a Black male appearing to pull the handle of the front door, police say the 84-year-old white man opened fire. No questions asked.

Lester told police he believed someone was attempting to break into his house.


-----------

“Lester stated he opened the interior door, and saw a black male approximately 6 feet tall pulling on the exterior storm door handle. He stated he believed someone was attempting to break into the house, and shot twice within a few seconds of opening the door,” according to the police statement. Lester told police he was "scared to death."

There apparently were no words exchanged before the shooting. Yarl told police he pressed the doorbell but didn't pull on the door. He said the man shot him in the head, then after he fell to the ground, shot him a second time in the arm. As Yarl got up to run, the man said, “Don't come around here,” according to the police report.

Some legal experts said Tuesday that although Lester could try to use the castle doctrine as a defense, prosecutors could counter that he did not have reasonable grounds to believe Yarl was breaking into his house.

Nothing in the law “allows someone to shoot first and ask questions later when someone innocently rings a doorbell. That’s something that UPS does on a daily basis, delivery drivers, children selling Girl Scout cookies,” said Ari Freilich, an attorney and state policy director with the Giffords Law Center to Prevent Gun Violence.

"Our laws can’t be structured in a way that allow (guns) to be used that cavalierly,” Freilich added.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/can-a-doorbell-ring-justify-a-stand-your-ground-shooting/ar-AA1a1tFX

[Straw Man]

1. No -- it never could.

Contrary to popular belief, "I felt threatened" is not a justification to use deadly force. Missouri law is similar to that of many other states in that it applies the "reasonably believes" standard to the perceived threat of death or serious bodily harm.

The word "reasonably" is obviously subjective, which is where the jury comes in. Convincing those 12 that one's actions were reasonable is the goal in self-defense cases. This one looks like an uphill battle. I think Mr. Lester is going to die in jail.

[NJCher]

2. I saw Lester's house on TV

And I thought – – nice little house for a retiree. Other than the big lawn, it looks manageable.

So much better to live in a place like that than in a jail cell.

This guy screwed up royally and he only has himself to blame.

[TreasonousBastard]

3. If you're that afraid of your house being robbed, there are...

better options than a gun.

[phylny]

8. No kidding!

Why open the door? Either talk through it or call 911 if you’re scared.

As a woman, I would never open the door to a stranger. Now that we have a Ring camera, I ask, “How can I help you?” Did it last week to a group of Jehovah’s witnesses. Didn’t even have to leave the recliner.

Like I said to my husband, if all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.

[doc03]

10. Remember the case at the Florida theater where a guy threw popcorn in

the x-cops face? The cop killed him because he felt threatened and got off free. The Travon Martin case where George Zimmerman
was pursuing Matin and Martin "Stood his Ground" but Zimmerman got off on "Stand your ground".

[Sympthsical]

19. And that's what's going to convict him

Because reasonably doesn't apply unless you're pretty much a galloping racist. The doorbell, the ability to ask through the door who it is and why they're there. Hell, just crack the door or talk through it. There are a lot of options here not involving trying to blow a person away.

Instead, he opened fire.

My neighbors next door have teenagers. The daughter had a party a few months back. Our houses are pretty sound proof, so I had no idea. My partner was out of town, so just me and the kittens. At around 11pm, doorbell rings. Three males were on the porch, kind of making a ruckus. I asked who it was through the door. They said the daughter's name. Then I cracked the door open with the safety latch and quickly figured out they misread the address (and seemed slightly drunk). I don't have a gun, but if I did, I'm pretty sure my first instinct isn't to open fire through the door.

[FarPoint]

4. Off the top of my head....

I say no it can not....The home owner provides the doorbell for a notification of any arrivals...it is like an invitation....

[Bernardo de La Paz]

5. No. Homeowner provides the doorbell. It is meant to be used. It is not a threat

Even knocking on the door would not be a threat.

[live love laugh]

6. I don't think most burglars don't ring doorbells.

[GPV]

7. Someone legit tried to break into my home once. I didn't shoot them, but I did call the cops who

didn't seem to want to do anything about it.

[DFW]

9. Not unless that someone rang the doorbell with the front end of a speeding pickup truck. n/t

[doc03]

11. I assume the cops took finger prints on the door handle, that could

be a factor in how the case is determined.

[BlueWaveNeverEnd]

12. there is video of the guy cleaning up the glass shortly after the shooting, I doubt a crime

scene collection of evidence was done.

[Solomon]

15. Really!?

[doc03]

17. Well if the shooter claims the victim was trying to break in to his house and the victim

says he rang the door bell and never touched the door it may be brought up in any trial.

[BumRushDaShow]

13. "..something that UPS does on a daily basis, delivery drivers, children selling Girl Scout cookies,"

Girl Scout selling cookies threatened with gun

St. Louis Public Radio
Published January 26, 2007 at 10:15 AM CST


By AP/KWMU


St. Louis, MO – St. Louis police say they don't expect to charge a 78-year-old woman with any crime for reportedly pointing a gun at an 8-year old Girl Scout selling cookies.

The girl's father said a man who answered the door of a south-city home this week yelled at them. As they walked away the man's mother emerged with a double-barrel shotgun threatening to shoot.

Firefighter Terry Tedder had taken his daughter out to sell cookies in their neighborhood. After the incident, Tedder and his daughter ran home and called police.

(snip)

https://news.stlpublicradio.org/delete1/2007-01-26/girl-scout-selling-cookies-threatened-with-gun

Police: Man feared trick-or-treater was robber
An ex-convict who thought he was being robbed gunned down a 12-year-old trick-or-treater, spraying nearly 30 rounds with an assault rifle from inside his home after hearing a knock on the door, police said Saturday.

Nov. 1, 2008, 3:46 AM EDT / Source: The Associated Press



An ex-convict who thought he was being robbed gunned down a 12-year-old trick-or-treater, spraying nearly 30 rounds with an assault rifle from inside his home after hearing a knock on the door, police said Saturday.

Quentin Patrick, 22, is accused of killing 12-year-old T.J. Darrisaw on Friday night. T.J.'s 9-year-old brother, Ahmadre Darrisaw, and their father, Freddie Grinnell, were injured but were released after being treated at a hospital.

The family attended a Halloween celebration in downtown Sumter, 45 miles east of Columbia, then stopped at Patrick's house because the porch light was on, police said. Another sibling was with them but wasn't hurt. Police said at least two of the boys were wearing ghoulish masks when they knocked on the door. The boys' mother and a toddler stayed in the car nearby.

Patrick emptied his AK-47, shooting at least 29 times through his front door, walls and windows after hearing the knock, Police Chief Patty Patterson said.

(snip)

https://www.nbcnews.com/id/wbna27482694

This is where "Red Flag" laws must be enacted and enforced.

[panader0]

14. No. The actual need and use of a doorbell is to announce a visitor.

[Solomon]

16. It makes me sick that this question is even being debated!

If the colors were reversed it would be a statement not a question.

[localroger]

18. When Rodney Peairs shot Yoshihiro Hattori in this way

...in Baton Rouge, LA in 1992, he did beat the murder rap. But he lost the following civil action to the tune of $650K and lost the house he had been "defending." FAFO, assholes.

[Johonny]

20. FOX news is getting people shot

The RW has bullied for stand your ground laws and built up mythical stories of protecting your property, and made glorious heroes of murderous thugs. Is it any surprise we're now hearing horror stories of people (mostly old white men) shooting first and apparently second in this case.

Violence is a last resort and should never be applied without actual cause. Parking a driveway and ringing a doorbell are not just cause.

[EnergizedLib]

21. Only in the minds of sickos

We don’t have to live like this.