MSNBC: the reason the charges against Alec Baldwin were dropped,

[pnwmom]

Last edited Fri Apr 21, 2023, 12:40 AM - Edit history (3)

according to a speaker who's name I missed. The Special prosecutor had learned that the gun had been modified so it could go off without anyone pulling the trigger.

That meant reasonable doubt if it went to a jury.

(I also read somewhere that the gun fell apart during testing, which also indicated a problem with the gun.)

ON UPDATE: The charges could possibly be refiled, depending on the results of the ongoing investigation.

I found this piece in the LA Times.

https://www.latimes.com/entertainment-arts/business/story/2023-04-20/rust-prosecutors-drop-charges-against-alec-baldwin

The development came after prosecutors received new information in the case — that Baldwin’s prop gun had been modified before being delivered to the low-budget western in October 2021, according to three people familiar with the matter who were not authorized to comment.

The replica of the vintage weapon — a Colt .45 revolver — had been modified , increasing the odds that the gun might have misfired, as Baldwin has said, according to the sources.

SNIP

“We cannot proceed under the current time constraints and on the facts and evidence turned over by law enforcement in its existing form,” they said. “We therefore will be dismissing the involuntary manslaughter charges against Mr. Baldwin to conduct further investigation. This decision does not absolve Mr. Baldwin of criminal culpability and charges may be refiled.”

SNIP

Results of a ballistics investigation of the gun by the FBI, released last summer, indicated the gun was functional when Baldwin was handling it. But Baldwin’s attorneys have consistently insisted that finding was flawed, noting that the gun fell apart during the FBI testing.

[spooky3]

1. It sounded like a weak case even before this.

Is it an actor’s responsibility to know whether a prop gun would have real bullets in it?

[NotVeryImportant]

34. How do you think this story would have played out had it been a black actor?

Think of the biggest black actor you can imagine living and working now.

Do you think they would not have been arrested, mug shots taken, media barrage on how their career is over.

None of these things happened to Alec.

Do you think it would have been the same w/any black actor, w/the same exact circumstances?

[Alexander Of Assyria]

2. Prosecution standard is...reasonable likelihood conviction...beyond reasonable doubt is for a jury.

So didn’t prosecute, not a reasonable likelihood of conviction.

Which was beyond any doubt the correct decision.

[TreasonousBastard]

3. If there was a gun modified that much I would think far more...

investigation is needed.

[PortTack]

7. Agree...I don't have guns, but I do know a responsible handler should ALWAYS test a gun, double

Check it if you’re going to be handling it when loaded…in any capacity

[stopdiggin]

11. having never been an actor, or on a movie set

I would have to defer to those that have such experience. Is this considered standard protocol for the handling of 'prop guns?'


I'd like to hear what others who have 'shot' western scenes, and actual performed the actions, have to say.

(and please don't dole out some tired doggerel about gunz is gunz - because it's quite evident that there are degrees and differences)

[PortTack]

13. Agree...but if I were handed a gun and told to aim and shoot,I would for sure understand

1. Is the gun real or just a prop
2. Is the gun loaded
3. If so, are they live rounds

No doubt these are now Alec Baldwin’s regrets everyday of his life

[stopdiggin]

17. I don't doubt that he has massive guilt and regrets

the question is - was there any sort of reasonable expectation - that live rounds should have been anywhere within the vicinity, much less within a 'set piece' that he was handling for a scene?

And that's why I ask - is it standard procedure for actors to 'check' prop guns for live ammunition on set? Or is that something that we're all deciding 'should' have happened - with the benefit of hindsight?

[Kaleva]

21. The four basic safety rules have been around for decades

One rule is to always handle the gun as if it loaded. Even when it's not

Another rule is to never point the gun as anything you aren't willing to destroy.

I think it's reasonable to expect that anyone who handles a gun would have received training on gun safety or be under the direct supervision of someone who is trained . This is a minimal standard that even children can meet but as we see far too often, adults sometimes can't even meet that standard.

[stopdiggin]

25. and yet again, a person hammering at

'basic gun safety' (of which I am perfectly aware, and have been since about age 8 or 9yrs) - and making absolutely no effort to address the difference between gun, and 'prop gun/set piece.' We get virtually nowhere if we continue to consider them virtually the same thing.

At that is why I continue to ask - is this something that is considered standard protocol (checking prop guns for live ammo) - among actors that are familiar with and really working under these conditions? i.e., while working on the film scene?

[Kaleva]

29. A working gun is dangerous no matter where it is

You are confusing prop gun with real guns. Real guns were used on the set

"Are Prop Guns Real Guns?
The first issue is with all the media outlets calling the gun used in the shooting a “prop gun.” Make no mistake: the gun used in the shooting was a real gun. For as long as there have been movies, scenes with gunfire in them have used real guns. That’s the only way to get the flash of the powder, the bang of the ignition, and the recoil in the actor’s hands. Of course, for safety’s sake, these guns are loaded with blanks. A blank gives all of the above, but without the bullet. It doesn’t make a blank non-lethal, but it does make it less lethal.

These real guns get called prop guns because they get lumped into all of the other accessories used by actors in the course of filming a movie. But make no mistake: they are very much real guns."

https://www.ffl123.com/are-prop-guns-real-guns/

[Whiskeytide]

30. The problem is that prop or set guns are ...

… supposed to be “designed” to be aimed at actors and fired, without an intent to destroy the target. It makes little sense to apply the usual gun safety protocols in such circumstances. The intended use of a gun on a set necessarily violates one of the standard rules of gun safety.

I see the problem here is that a real gun, or at least one that functioned as a real gun, was used on a movie set. That should never happen.

[exboyfil]

31. A real gun is used with blanks

That is why it is on the set. The production should have used non-functioning replicas for any scenes where the gun could be pointed at the crew or cast. The production was cheap so the guns were doing double duty in firing blanks and being used in scenes in which they are pointed.

[Kaleva]

37. I agree with your last paragraph

Working guns shouldn't be allowed on sets.

What was acceptable before doesn't have to be acceptable today. Not with modern CGI available.

[Cuthbert Allgood]

36. How would you understand that?

There are at least 4 very different states the gun you are handed as an actor could be in. Two of those would mean that you would need to take the bullets apart to know if there is powder in them or empty? Should Baldwin take the bullets apart? Does he have the knowledge to do that?

Industry standard is that there is someone who has the professional knowledge to make sure everything is correct. They then hand the gun to the actor and tell them the state. Usually "cold gun." The actor then knows that it is safe.

[viva la]

23. Yes, why modify it thst way?

Also who put real bullets in there and why?

[Demsrule86]

39. Sounds deliberate.

[SuperCoder]

4. Good.

We need this amazing human being to continue making fun of Trump (Hitler).

I'm sorry she died but clearly Alec Baldwin is not responsible.

Now, let's go after the motherfucker with zings and zangs and more.

[Wishful-Thinking]

5. What about Hannah Guitterez, the weapons handler?

She was also charged and we’re not hearing about her. Was she cleared earlier and I kissed it, or still facing charges?

[wishstar]

24. She's still facing charges

[KS Toronado]

6. I've always felt

the responsibility for this unfortunate accident belongs to the armorer who put live rounds into the prop gun.
She had to know the difference between live and dummy rounds as part of her profession. Maybe
Hollywood needs to have prop guns that only accept dummy rounds.

[canetoad]

10. I know this is a stupid suggestion

But how about making movies without guns?

[KS Toronado]

12. There's no such thing as a "stupid suggestion"

Hollywood makes so much money from films like Saving Private Ryan, that they'll never quit.

[wnylib]

15. But it is possible to make films with fake guns.

Some producers and directors insist on it

[LisaM]

14. I know. That's what I keep thinking.

There are way too many guns in movies. I am tired of it.

[panader0]

28. How about wars without guns?

g'day cane

[Kaleva]

18. The assistant director has already been sentenced

for his part in not ensuring safety on the set

[Straw Man]

20. The problem is ...

I've always felt

the responsibility for this unfortunate accident belongs to the armorer who put live rounds into the prop gun.

... that it hasn't been established that she put the live rounds into the gun. If she did, then it's more than just negligent; it's malicious, as in trying to get someone hurt or killed.

I think it's more likely that somebody else on the set put the live rounds in -- possibly the crew members who were supposedly fucking around with the guns out in the desert, in violation of all safety protocols, and then negligently returned them to the set without making sure they were unloaded first. This would have been compounded by the negligence of the armorer, who handed the gun to Baldwin without checking it first.

[exboyfil]

32. No there were live rounds in her bag

The most obvious conclusion is that she didn't know what she was doing. A complication is that the live rounds were apparently reloads.

[Straw Man]

38. That doesn't mean she put live rounds in the gun.

I'll grant, though, that it's against most safety protocols to have live rounds anywhere on the set.

The most obvious conclusion is that she didn't know what she was doing. A complication is that the live rounds were apparently reloads.

Live rounds are live rounds, whether they're reloads or fresh out of the box. Most reloads are indistinguishable from store-bought rounds except that the cases may be a little tarnished. If you're saying that she didn't know live rounds from blanks, then she REALLY didn't know what she was doing, and had no business overseeing firearm use anywhere.



That's three live rounds and a blank. Those are rifle rounds, but the principle is the same.

[exboyfil]

40. She mistook live rounds for dummies, not blanks

Apparently the reloads used brass that looked like the brass used in typical dummies she was using. In addition to buying two boxes she also brought a partial box of dummies and dummies in gun belts from another movie she worked on. There is no industry standard for dummies. They can be filled with BeeBees and/or have a hole drilled into the side of the case. The lack of a primer or a dented primer is how they are checked when already in the revolver. In this case they would have to open the gate and spin the cylinder.

[Straw Man]

41. Ah, I see.

If that's how it happened, then she was criminally negligent -- unfit for her job and liable for the death.

[stopdiggin]

8. 'gun fell apart during testing'

well - that would be some major 'modification'

and - was the gun deemed 'functional' - before or after it fell into pieces?

JFC!

[iemanja]

9. Shouldn't they have determined that before filing charges?

The reason they gave for the charges was that they were insistent that the gun couldn't have gone off without pulling the trigger. Now that turns out to be false. They shouldn't have figured that out ages ago.

[Permanut]

16. Smells like Alec was set up..

Just sayin'.

[Kaleva]

19. Idiots with guns is far more likely

[Mike Niendorff]

22. Agreed.

I want to know how a live round got onto that set and into that prop gun.

Somebody better be digging deep into this.


MDN

[Deminpenn]

26. The plausible reason for charges to be dropped when

they should have never been filed against Baldwin in the first place. The appointed special prosecutor was/is a rwnj, who I strongly suspect saw a chance to damage a vocal political opponent and took it.

[obamanut2012]

35. Yup, my feeling, too

Alec Baldwin is also quite a huge tool, and I personally do not like him, although I like his acting and very much appreciate any political activism he does, so lots of folks on the left easily turned on him. Including many, many here. I thought immediately after he was hit with charges this was a wingnut DA going after him for no reason, and it was.

[lindysalsagal]

33. IMHO the death was the fault of whoever held the safety responsibilities

Stunt guns are constantly in use. Actors cannot be liable unless the actors circumvent safety protocols. It's the circumvention that is the crime, not the actor. They'd have to prove Baldwin brought in a real gun w real ammo.