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H2O Man

(79,048 posts)
Fri Apr 21, 2023, 05:24 PM Apr 2023

The River

"If we will be quiet and ready enough, we shall find compensation in every disappointment."
-- Henry David Thoreau


I recently witnessed an argument on facebook between two people I know. One is an older liberal, the other a young progressive, which started out as a minor disagreement on Democratic Party activities in the houses of Congress. It was, like so many issues, one where there is no "right" or "wrong," just a difference of opinion.

Within minutes, each expressed their disappointment in the other. This rapidly led to each saying the other's father would surely be disappointed in their son. Soon the older gentleman was threatening to beat the young man up the next time he saw him. This resulted in me contacting the older guy, and saying it is never wise for guys our age to get into physical fights with young men -- especially those who are bigger and stronger than we were in our physical primes.

He began listing fights he had been in, going back more than fifty years, and assured me that he could still dish it out. I pointed out that without a doubt, guys our age could "dish it out," so long as we were up against someone who refused to fight back. But our bag of old bones do not stand up well if a younger, bigger, stronger guy fights back. Indeed, I said, the history of boxing is young lions knocking out old lions.

I pointed out that a person in their late twenties is unlikely to view things exactly like a seventy year old. Nor is a seventy year old likely to view the world exactly the same as they did in their twenties -- for if they did, they have wasted decades of opportunity for growth. One's values may remain a constant, but hopefully their level of understanding matures.

I'm sad to say that the hostility between the two has failed to dissolve. This will keep me from including them from working together with me on the upcoming 2024 elections. At this point, I'm only focused on NYS's 19th Congressional District, and there does not appear to be anyone challenging Josh Riley in a primary.


“Do a good deed and throw it in the river. One day it will come back to you in the desert.”
-- Rumi


What we throw into the river goes downstream ..... in space and in time. Now, I want to be clear here, I'm only expressing my own opinion. But I think the social-political river has had too much toxin waste tossed in. I see a corporation named Fox doing it. I see the defendant doing it. Plenty of others, too. I have neighbors who advertise hate and fear with yard signs supporting the defendant.

I can only speak and make decisions for myself. No question about it. But I do not to drink from a cup of poisoned water. No question about that, either. Thus, in the example I noted to begin this essay with, I don't like to see Democrats throwing poison into that river. There is absolutely no benefit accrued from it. For self-righteous, suspicious, and knee-jerk accusations aren't going to distinguish us from what King called "our sick white brothers and sisters." Or any skin color, that participate in the current of social disease.

Take the topic about Senator Feinstein. I am not happy that this great Senator has missed votes. I don't know "the" answer. But I can read a variety of opinions here, and recognize that we want people with different opinions participating in discussions.

I've heard that President Biden is likely to announce on Tuesday that he is running for re-election. He and VP Harris will easily get our party's nomination, and will win next November. I realize there are two announced candidates besides President Biden that say they are running. But President Biden will win, without adding a single dollar or time campaigning, every contest in the primaries.

It doesn't upset me in the least that some people I know, who are registered Democrats, do like one or the other potential candidates. I support President Biden, because I like to win. I'm familiar with this river, and I know how important winning in 2024 is. Yet I want those who are considering another vote in a primary to vote for our candidates in the general election. They make up a tiny fraction of voters, it is true. But our party sometimes wins by tiny fractions. I don't see any meaningful advantage to insulting them.

I'm not disappointed that Dominion settled with Fox. Do I wish that Tucker, Sean, and others had to run the gaunlet and take a publib humiation? Of course I do. But that is our responsibility, not Dominion's. The case has provided us with all that we need. Plus there are other cases coming. We can reach all but thr brain dead.

I'll say it again: there is already far too much toxic waste thrown in the river. We see it every day, rearing its ugly head, with shootings, etc. It should be obvious to everyone that we are living in a sick environment. So consider throwing good deeds into the river.

Peace,
H2O Man

22 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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The River (Original Post) H2O Man Apr 2023 OP
Well said. WVreaper Apr 2023 #1
Thank you! H2O Man Apr 2023 #2
Wise words to consider in these times! 2naSalit Apr 2023 #3
Thanks! H2O Man Apr 2023 #8
Thanks, nice sentiments. Just_Vote_Dem Apr 2023 #4
I was talking H2O Man Apr 2023 #9
Good stuff.. thanks!! Karadeniz Apr 2023 #5
Thank you! H2O Man Apr 2023 #10
Always good to read your posts. I used to drive through your area many times a year. erronis Apr 2023 #6
Stefanik is troubling. H2O Man Apr 2023 #11
"I don't see any meaningful advantage to insulting them" Martin Eden Apr 2023 #7
Thank you! H2O Man Apr 2023 #12
We do what we can Martin Eden Apr 2023 #13
I remember as a kid H2O Man Apr 2023 #15
Quiet wisdom... Hekate Apr 2023 #14
Thank you! H2O Man Apr 2023 #16
Kind of you to say so... Hekate Apr 2023 #19
We all have been. H2O Man Apr 2023 #20
This post needs a megaphone Easterncedar Apr 2023 #17
Oh, thanks! H2O Man Apr 2023 #18
You are an amazing writer (and thinker)! Iris Apr 2023 #21
Well, thank you! H2O Man Apr 2023 #22

WVreaper

(675 posts)
1. Well said.
Fri Apr 21, 2023, 05:41 PM
Apr 2023

We do not need to fight with fellow democrats. We can always disagree but try to remember that you with whom you are arguing.

H2O Man

(79,048 posts)
8. Thanks!
Fri Apr 21, 2023, 08:51 PM
Apr 2023

The two guys I wrote about are both pro-union. They both come from union (extended) families. Yet they got into a bitter fight ...... over unions. Small differences, when petty insults are added, led to a big fight. Now one just says he will never see or talk to the other, while the other is still snarling. And not that they have any serious connection other than working with me every other year on campaigns.

I have a fair understanding of human nature, and of these two's character. I don't see this becoming "water under the bridge" for at least another election cycle. And I do not think we have the luxury of not going out 100% in 2024.

Just_Vote_Dem

(3,644 posts)
4. Thanks, nice sentiments.
Fri Apr 21, 2023, 07:14 PM
Apr 2023

I happen to be a person who enjoys compromise. I've gone back and forth with some people here and in "real life", but I generally don't keep grudges and have no problem engaging with them again. Life is too short.

H2O Man

(79,048 posts)
9. I was talking
Fri Apr 21, 2023, 09:02 PM
Apr 2023

with my Boston daughter earlier this week. She is active in state politics, worked for one top state official, and is a social worker. She brought up the topic of people who do not understand what is possible, versus what we wish could be accomplished immediately. I brought up just the wee-little example of when I served on the school board for a couple of terms. Many good people would approach me, saying, "All you need to do is ____________," or, "What you really must do is __________." Sure. If only it was that easy.

When serving, one has to go by the structure of the rules governing that body. And without compromise, nothing gets done. That does not mean to compromise your values, as you obviously know. But it does mean they you don't get exactly what you want every time. And there are problems we are experiencing in this country that will take more than a generation to resolve.

erronis

(23,869 posts)
6. Always good to read your posts. I used to drive through your area many times a year.
Fri Apr 21, 2023, 08:11 PM
Apr 2023

Washington DC to Saranac Lake via 81/88/87.

My father ran for congress from the upstate district (now Stefanik's) way back when. A staunch Democrat in a staunchly conservative area. Did pretty well but the inbred politics were hard to beat.

The current map of political office holders is not very comforting to this Democrat. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York%27s_congressional_districts

How much of this is attributable to redistricting for voter corralling and how much just because that's how these people have always voted?


H2O Man

(79,048 posts)
11. Stefanik is troubling.
Fri Apr 21, 2023, 09:16 PM
Apr 2023

She knows better. But she is power hungry. There was a line in the movie "Gandhi," where a person said to the Mahatma that he was ambitious. He replied that he hoped not.

I remember back in the early 1970s, my father showing me the vote totals in local and state elections. He said to keep track of these, because they were pretty much the same, year after year, for republicans. That they operated top down, and voted for who they were told to vote for. He added that republicans can be counted on to vote against Democrats who wanted to help them, opting instead to republicans they wish they were in the same social circle/ class with.

Although there are more of each republicans and independents around here, I've had success in getting Democrats elected in local elections. There are some case, especially at higher than local, where that is pretty close to impossible. So I'm glad to hear your father ran! That is important.

More, as I'm typing this, I remember my late friend Rubin saying that only fool who attempts the futile can be the hero who achieves the impossible. I think those who try -- men and women of your Dad's character -- are heroes no matter if they "win" or not.

Martin Eden

(15,622 posts)
7. "I don't see any meaningful advantage to insulting them"
Fri Apr 21, 2023, 08:33 PM
Apr 2023

Amen, Brother.

I would take that a step further to declare (in my own personal opinion) there is no advantage to insulting the die hard MAGA folks among us. I'm not saying to validate their opinions, or even to turn the other cheek. I'm saying there is no advantage, socially or politically, to making an angry person even angrier -- to hardening their resolve in opposing everything we stand for.

Let us not cast poison into the river.

We may never change their minds, but I believe a simple approach accruing to everyone's advantage in dealing with other human beings is contained within a two word guide for personal behavior: Be Kind.

We probably have not walked a mile, or even a few steps, in their shoes. One of the greatest moral heroes in American literature, Atticus Finch, understood this well.

I also believe in a fairly simple and effective strategy in any potentially contentious discussion: find common ground.

Whether the vast majority of American citizens can see it or not, our common interests far outweigh any perceived zero sum game. Nearly all of us want security for ourselves and our family; good education and opportunities; fair pay for a fair day's work; freedom to pursue our dreams; medical care that does not ruin us financially.

The American Dream can only be achieved if we recognize our shared goals and have civil discussions in the realm of ideas with agreed upon facts. That last item could be the most difficult. The river is filled with the toxin of lies.

But lies are not the only poison. In the long run Mother Earth has a way of cleansing itself and purifying the waters, but that run will take much longer if each of us do not choose to refrain from casting toxins into the river from which we all drink.


Peace,
Martin

H2O Man

(79,048 posts)
12. Thank you!
Fri Apr 21, 2023, 09:36 PM
Apr 2023

I agree with you 100%.

There are a lot of maga people in the rural area where I live. Heck, I went to school with many of them. I used to hang out with them when we were young. Though certainly not all, most of those who know me still like me. They find me an odd character, but aren't as hostile as others have been towards me in the past decade. And there are lots of don'y know I exist, or are half-way between friendly and hostile.

I encountered one in the grocery store a while back. We've known each other since the early 1970s, and never been friends. An environmental issue came up, and he talked for a while. I said I disagreed, and started to speak more when he shouted, "You're not going to change my mind!" I assured him I had no intention of trying to ..... that I can respect opinions other than my own. That concept seemed to be foreign to him, but in the few times I've seen him since, he was almost friendly.

In the past month, through friends and associates, I've learned more about an event that took place a few years back. Three non-white young ladies, who had recently graduated the town's school, had organized a small "Black Lives Matter!" rally. A bunch pf magas were sure that antifa was joining BLM to invade and take over the community. I've talked with a couple of these people on facebook sites. None are "friends." I asked them what BLM and antifa would do if somehow they did take over? None had thought that far, for fear and hatred had saturated their being.

I knew of one guy who watched from his station wagon in a nearby parking lot, with a loaded shotgun. There were a lot more that I only recently learned of. We need to reduce the levels of hate, or that river will continue to spill over its banks.

Martin Eden

(15,622 posts)
13. We do what we can
Fri Apr 21, 2023, 11:21 PM
Apr 2023

It's all too tempting, easy, and somewhat satisfying to lash out and give expression to our own anger when confronted by our perceived enemies.

Reminds me of the two wolves within each of us.

Which one wins?

The one we feed.

H2O Man

(79,048 posts)
15. I remember as a kid
Sat Apr 22, 2023, 12:06 PM
Apr 2023

looking at photographs of veterans from both sides of the Civil War, in their old age, hanging out together on friendly terms. As a teenaged male, it didn't make sense to me. Those pictures always stayed somewhere in my mind. These days, of course, I do get it. What a waste of human life the war had been -- though for good purposes in most ways.

Easterncedar

(6,265 posts)
17. This post needs a megaphone
Sat Apr 22, 2023, 02:29 PM
Apr 2023

I really appreciate your wise words here. We need to be able to air opinions and engage in the discussions that enlighten us without descending into insult and angry argument. We need to stick together and hold the high ground against what is clearly an enemy dangerous to all we hold dear, like, um, the planet? (Democracy, Freedom, Equality?)

Thanks, H2O Man, for keeping things in the proper perspective. I’m always encouraged by your writing.

H2O Man

(79,048 posts)
18. Oh, thanks!
Sat Apr 22, 2023, 02:50 PM
Apr 2023

I certain could not claim that over the decades of life, I've never been angry at the wrong people -- or "person," as I've often been my worst enemy. Plus I come from an ancient clanna from the Old Sod, who followed the philosophy of, "Is this a private fight, or can anyone join?" And I still delight in making rude jokes about the defendant & his cult. But I am trying to be nicer to others, and that includes respecting the opinions of those others -- so long as they vote for our party's candidates.

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