General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsDoes anybody else sometimes feel like they're Living in Germany in the early 30s?
N/T
brooklynite
(94,699 posts)Back in the Bush Jr. days, people were also yelling "fascist" and "police state". It wasn't then and it isn't now.
Last I checked, Joe Biden was still President.
Marius25
(3,213 posts)I'm Jewish. I participate on Jewish discussion forums. We all recognize the warning signs. Holocaust Survivors have said the US over the past 6 years looks like early Nazi Germany.
Everything Republicans are doing right now is out of the Nazi playbook.
My father was murdered by this country by fascists. Just like his grandfather and my great grandfather and two siblings and others were murdered by Nazis and antisemites. As soon as I saw it dumps Nazi campaign rallies I was alarmed and frightened because I know and because we know those of us who know what happened in the holocaust know thats an exact sign of that and its continuing here. The lack of any real accountability the fact that this monster is allowed to run for office three times, and do the terrible damage and its still walking free lets
see if anything resembling true accountability actually happens.
Wish we had left here as soon as it all started as soon as he was installed an office anyway and my father would still be alive.
liberal_mama
(1,495 posts)the lives of the immune compromised and senior citizens to Covid, this country's soul was lost. Thousands of Americans are still being culled every week and no one cares.
Not even most of my liberal friends sadly. Very few of them have stood up and said, "This is wrong!" and demanded better of our leaders and public health officials.
After they've killed all the sick, disabled, and high risk people, they will move on to the homeless people and then on to the next group. I don't think the momentum can be stopped at this point.
People like to pretend it can't happen. It certainly can happen. People that think it can't happen need to read some history books. A good start would be Ordinary Men by Christopher Browning.
Wasn't Trump just talking about rounding up the homeless?
It's hard to come back from the killing of 1.2 million American citizens to benefit the economy (which is crappy anyway, I've never had it so financially tough in my entire life). Most of these people would still be alive today if other people cared.
Meowmee
(5,164 posts)and I am very sorry for your loss and for what happened to your father. You are correct also that most dems are ignoring this and acting like it is ok. It is NOT OK.
The decision to let people most at risk die and go unprotected was made early on too. First the malfeasance of the murderer fascist masquerading as a prez. But also many, many other decisions and lies, not all done by R etc. Lying about masks not protecting us, lying about washing hands protecting us etc. Deciding that young healthy people should be vaccinated before elderly and high risk people, deciding masks and other protective measures were no longer needed when they clearly were still needed. Walensky went on tv and declared that it was only high risk and people with comorbidity who were dying now so it was OK. I am sure I have missed a few things. But you get the picture. In our county 30% of hospital workers refused the vaccine and were allowed to continue working. Those vaccines were either thrown away or given to people cheating. I saw several incidents and have pictures and videos of mask-less or improperly masked visitors, patients and hcw there and many, many more of multiple other negligences. Such as at 2-7 am nearly the entire nursing and other staff of two wards, micu and a step down left leaving patients unattended. I could write a thousand page novel and not be able to mention each and every negligence which also included the theft of medication I dropped off at the er for my father when he was first infected. Maybe I will document it all before before I die in writing and video log with names and dates.
My father was also negligently infected by a hospital, who then committed multiple malpractices and gross negligences and in the last month literally murdered him while I tried desperately to save him while they abused and harassed me. He was infected one week before he became eligible for the vaccine. Meanwhile millions of healthy young people who were flw were vaccinated and so were many more who cheated to get the vaccine early using family member ids. This country will never erase the stain of this disgusting behavior and the murders.
The murder of elders and anyone who has dni/dnr and the whole grossly negligent health system was already in place, always protecting hcw and facilities, and covid made it so much easier for them to carry this out with mostly no interfering family and friends. We were thrown out of my father's micu room when we were simply quietly sitting there with him, due to questioning something a nurse was doing, by the charge nurse who was a FUCKING SADIST. (one among many) Security apologized to us for that but could not stop it. I saw a lot of fascist behavior in that hospital and in others.
treestar
(82,383 posts)They can go on about inflation as much as they wish. But they dont have the desperate economy that Weimar Germany had. So they cant get a foothold on the power they want.
Totalitarianism is for people so desperate that things get done they are willing to giv3 up their freedom. We are way too comfortable for that.
Celerity
(43,485 posts)https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/It_Can%27t_Happen_Here
It Can't Happen Here is a 1935 dystopian political novel by American author Sinclair Lewis. It describes a United States dictator whose rise to power is similar to that of Adolf Hitler. The novel was adapted into a play by Lewis and John C. Moffitt in 1936.
Also:
Also:
brooklynite
(94,699 posts)Celerity
(43,485 posts)PatSeg
(47,567 posts)The book has been "in development" as a movie for many years now. It is supposed to be produced by Tom Hanks and he will possibly star as the U.S. ambassador, but this has been in the works for over ten years.
Srkdqltr
(6,314 posts)Irish_Dem
(47,302 posts)bucolic_frolic
(43,257 posts)Nazi Germany would not have withstood those 2 innovations. Doesn't mean we're out of the woods, but we have better chances than Germany did in 1933.
CTyankee
(63,912 posts)anciano
(1,000 posts)then I seriously believe that fascism is now a real possibility.
BlueCheeseAgain
(1,654 posts)bdamomma
(63,917 posts)marching toward dystopian Gilead and Germany.
Kaleva
(36,327 posts)Millions had been killed in the Great War a little over 10 years earlier
I don't think anyone alive today can relate to that
Marius25
(3,213 posts)looks like 1929 Germany.
Kaleva
(36,327 posts)Marius25
(3,213 posts)Florida just legalized the genocide of transgender minors by allowing them to be kidnapped from their families.
Kaleva
(36,327 posts)treestar
(82,383 posts)We are not desperate.
wnylib
(21,571 posts)to economic disaster? Currently it's the debt ceiling (again). In 2008 it was the housing market. It's as if they WANT economic disaster.
But an economic crash is not necessary for fascism to take hold in a nation. It helps, but is not necessary.
Kaleva
(36,327 posts)Italy,, Germany and Spain were in economic turmoil.
wnylib
(21,571 posts)before the Great Depression. It was fueled largely by nationalism after the First World War. Scroll down to the section of this link that's titled Conditions Precipitating Fascism.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_fascism
In Spain, the lead up to fascism was largely due to attempts at political modernism in the post WWI period. Spain was transitioning from the old order of absolute monarchy to a democratic governing system. The country was extremely polarized between urban and rural, and between the democratic government on one side versus the monarchist loyalists, church, and military on the other side. Franco's army attacked the democratic government of Spain, initiating the Spanish Civil War which ended with Franco as fascist dictator. The polarization between left and right had been building up in Spain for a long time, even before the First World War. It peaked when the left managed to establish a democratic system and faced backlash from the right, led by Franco.
The 3rd paragraph in the text below explains the start of fascism in Spain.
https://classroom.ricksteves.com/videos/fascism-in-spain-franco-s-dictatorship-and-picasso-s-guernica#:~:text=When%20General%20Francisco%20Franco%20sought,war%20ensued%2C%20won%20by%20Franco.
Kaleva
(36,327 posts)Opening the door for Mussolini.
https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=17848994
wnylib
(21,571 posts)created political instability in countries like Italy and Germany. But that instability alone would not have led to fascism. The instability could have led to socialism, communism, or a stronger form of democracy than Germany had after WWI. The reasons that 3 leading countries of Europe embraced fascism vary with each country, but they do have some things in common.
The old orders of monarchist rule were changing or, in Germany, disappearing. Socialism was gaining ground in many European countries, which made the establishment elite (industrialists, military, and church) nervous. The Russian Revolution had just occurred during the war.
Mussolini could not have achieved his absolute dictatorship without the backing of traditional conservatives and the appointment as prime minister by Victor Emmanuel III. Mussolini did very poorly in the 1919 elections, regardless of the economic situation. It was only after he got elected into the government a couple years later, with a very small percent of his party in government, that he began to get some notice, not from the populace, but from RW people who helprd him because they feared socialism..
In Germany, the people overthrew the monarchy at the end of the war. There was a long standing movement in Germany, since the failed revolution of 1848, for a liberal form of government, either as a republic with no monarchy, or as a parliamentarian constitutional monarchy patterned after the UK. The liberal monarch, Kaiser Frederick, and his British wife, Victoria, favored the latter, but he died shortly after becoming Kaiser. His ultra conservative son, Wilhelm II, destroyed all chances of reform (causing my great grandfather to flee Germany as a political refugee). Wilhelm II promoted the nationalism that contributed to the start of WWI. At the end of the war, when Wilhelm II abdicated (or was deposed) Germany established its Weimar Republic, but it was always in jeopardy due to the sharp political split in Germany between the conservative nationalists and more liberal supporters of the republic.
The Weimar Republic held up under the post war chaos and economic instability of post war Germany. Hitler could not get enough political support throughout the 1920s to get into office. Even in the economic disaster of the Great Depression, Hitler could not get enough votes to be a clear cut choice and only got into power through a coalition of support from conservatives who thought they could control him. Then, like Mussolini, he used force to make himself absolute dictator and to destroy his opponents. So, although economic instability helped Hitler gain some votes, it took much more than that for him to become absolute dictator in a racist government.
Spain's polarization was longstanding, driven by divisions between urban and rural life and by movements toward a more liberal form of government vs. the old order of monarchy, church, and military pushing back against reforms and modernization. The liberals won out politically, established a republic, and then Franco waged civil war to destroy the republic and establish a right wing dictatorship. Poverty (economics) was definitely an issue, and socialism was gaining ground politically on behalf of the disenfranchised lower classes, but the political instability and sharp political polarization was long standing in Spain.
Things the nation's had in common leading to fascism were a transition between old order monarchies and modern republics (Spain and Germany), strong nationalism, stirred up and fueled by RW leaders promoting a return to past glories, like Trump with his MAGA appeal to Americans today. For Germany, the past glory was 12th century Frederick Barbarossa. For Italy, it was the glory days of Rome and its empire. For Spain it was the Golden Age of Ferdinand and Isabel.
The US, by contrast, was an older, more firmly established republic. We also experienced the economic instability of the Great Depression during the 1930s,. We had extreme divisions between right wing fascists who supported Nazis in Germany and left wing socialists and communists who supported the Soviet Union. But the majority of American voters chose the left, in the form of the established Democratic Party, not the socialists, communists, or fascists.
Kaleva
(36,327 posts)but it is a key component.
We are not experiencing anywhere near such here in the US
Thus it cannot be said that we today feel like we are living in early 1930s Germany. Not even close.
wnylib
(21,571 posts)But that financially driven political instability does not necessarily lead to fascism. Consider the economic instability of Russia during WWI. It led to a communist revolution, not fascism.
For fascism to take over a nation, there has to be a leader who attracts authoritarian supporters in his/her inner circle and among the populace. There needs to be something in the nation's cultural identity that the leader can tap into to promote the traits that are characteristic of fsscism, like toxic mascinity. That often means appealing to a past supposed glory - the Roman Empire, the Spanish Empire, etc. In the US, there are popular myths and identies that can be used, like the heroic Puritans building a city on a hill for all to look up to (a distortion of the actual speech), or the heroic "taming" of the Wild West. There is also the Old South for southerners to look back upon through the eyeholes of a KKK hood. Or, across the entire nation, the past greatness of times like the 1950s, when women and POC knew their place and LGBTQ did not have a place to know.
So we have the cultural roots that can be manipulated into fascism. We have the cultural fear of socialism and communism from the Cold War era and backlash in the 1950s against the FDR programs of the 30s and 40s. It's pretty easy for Trump to tap into those fears and cultural themes. He's accomplishing that without economic disaster.
In fact, when the economy was tanking due to covid, Americans chose Biden. When the economy was tanking from the housing market crash, the American people chose Obama. When the economy tanked after the 1929 crash, Americans chose FDR, 4 times.
I hope that pattern holds because it looks like MAGAs want to crash the economy by holding the nation hostage to their debt ceiling demands, then blame it on Biden and Democrats in the hope of political gain.
Celerity
(43,485 posts)The level of socio-political disruption and corruption is off the charts in the US since the year of my birth (1996, when Fux Newz launched on October 7th) and then, also starting around 2012 or 2013 or so, when the RW started to make huge inroads on social media at a multiplicity of levels.
If I had come o DU in 2013 and described the state of America in 2023, I would have neem laughed off the board and banned as a crackpot troll.
Hell, to shorten the time frame, If I had come on in mid May 2015, and described mid November 2016 (a mere 18 months later), the same thing likely would have occurred.
Kaleva
(36,327 posts)But even with him, without the economic turmoil that the Great Depression brought, the Nazi Party would most likely have remained a minor party.
In 1928, the Nazi Party had gotten just over 2% of the vote. After 1929 when the economy crashed, the Nazi Party won the 2nd largest amount of votes in 1930.
Celerity
(43,485 posts)I see too much normalcy bias emanating from too many Americans, combined with too much faith in American exceptionalism, and finished off with a dose 'It can never happen here-ism'.
I (and the world) have witnessed vast swathes of American democratic norms and superstructures shredded in the past 7 or 8 years, swathes too large and too central to allow me to fall prey to those biases I just listed above.
Kaleva
(36,327 posts)Protesting, voting, writing letters to the editor and posting on social media works in normal times but has proven ineffective against rising fascism .
If you think these are extraordinary and dangerous times, then your responses will show that. If you believe the situation is normal, then you'll be doing what you've been doing for the entirety of your life. Normal stuff like expressing your opinion and voting .
If I thought there was even a small chance I'll end up in a gas chamber, Id have gone dark awhile ago. I wouldn't be providing potential enemies a easy to get history of my views . But since I don't believe I'll be rounded up with other so-called enemies of the state, I'll just keep on posting .
Edit: Also, if I thought we were dealing with actual fascists, I'd be acquiring an arsenal and networking with people I knew I could trust for mutual defense
Celerity
(43,485 posts)the majority of them in my age cohort (18-32, I am 26). Many are Americans. I have done a lot of heavy lifting to try and mitigate the damage that people like Manchin, Sinema and the Problem Solvers in the House have done to Biden's agenda, plus, beyond those actors, I try and mitigate things like the Gulf of Mexico drilling lease auction fiasco and now the Willow decision. Global warming is a massive issue within my circle of influence. A large thing I am preparing myself for is if/when the SCOTUS tosses Biden's targeted student loan debt forgiveness. I will do my utmost to focus 100% of the blame on the RW SCOTUS and the Rethugs. Another thing I will say is that if Biden bans TikTok, it is going to be a shitshow with the 40yo and under demo.
Lastly, I have tried for years to get many in my age cohort to come and join and post on DU, and almost universally I have been told thanks but no thanks.
Kaleva
(36,327 posts)You, unlike others, are trying
Alexander Of Assyria
(7,839 posts)Kaleva
(36,327 posts)"Labor unrest was widespread in the early 1930s, and the election of February 16, 1936, brought to power a leftist Popular Front government. Fascist and extreme-right forces responded in July 1936 with an army mutiny and coup attempt that expanded into a civil war."
https://www.britannica.com/event/Spanish-Civil-War
I"n 1919 Italy was on the brink of civil war with unemployment incredibly high, as a result there was a large communist movement amongst the people. There was fear in the middle class that there would be a revolution similar to that seen in Russia. Mussolini saw that this was his chance, and promised that he would destroy the communists and restore law and order to Italy."
https://manchesterhistorian.com/2013/mussolinis-rise-to-power/#:~:text=Mussolini%27s%20rise%20to%20power%20can,town%20called%2C%20Dovia%20di%20Predappio.
As far as I can tell, Biden is doing a good job with the economy.
Marius25
(3,213 posts)insanely high housing costs, high grocery bills, high gas bills, etc. I don't consider any of that Biden's fault, but it is leading to economic crisis for lots of people. Florida is now the most unaffordable state in America with housing costs, rent, and insurance skyrocketing. Is it any wonder it's embracing fascism?
Kaleva
(36,327 posts)This is ordinary.
Zeitghost
(3,867 posts)We've experienced high, but single digit inflation. The German Mark went from 1:1 with the Dollar to 4 trillion:1 in a year during the early 20's.
The two are not equivalent or even worth comparison.
2naSalit
(86,765 posts)But I hope we take a different path this time.
Deuxcents
(16,303 posts)Sympthsical
(9,093 posts)Source: Have actually read books on 1930s Germany.
Marius25
(3,213 posts)What Republicans are doing is what Nazi Germany did.
Sympthsical
(9,093 posts)And the internet's lazy, "Why everything I don't like is just like Nazis and Hitler" is one of my least favorite things about it.
It's just a way to find the worst thing possible to use in the moment against the things not liked.
Frankly, it cheapens what happened. How would anyone know what actual fascism looks like at this point? I've spent my entire adulthood to date hearing about how everything everywhere (all at once) "Is fascism, you guys." I remember when I, as a very young gay man, was about to be sent to FEMA camps by Dubya. Oh yeah, it's coming, you guys! They're building the camps in Montana!
It's why we can't have serious conversations.
I remember when if Romney was elected it was going to be the End of America and we couldn't let it happen. This is serious, you guys!
I prefer to live in the world I actually live in. It has problems enough. I don't need hyperbolic fictionalized problems wrought of manic behaviors and anxiety disorders stacked on top of it.
Cable news and internet addiction are warping perspectives in a distinctly unhelpful way.
If we did live in fascism, well, I'm very disappointed that the Declarations of Fascism are followed up by so little action. If I actually thought I was living in 1930s Germany, I wouldn't be lounging around in my PJs discussing it online. I'd be out there doing something about it.
A brave conscience would demand no less.
And because I don't see any action outside of mostly sitting around online slacktivisting, I don't think people really believe we live in 1930s Germany. I think it's just something they like to say. Which would bring us back to point one.
WarGamer
(12,463 posts)agreed. 1000%
Raine
(30,540 posts)Hope22
(1,853 posts)But things are in a dangerous, life threatening predicament and there are no two ways to spin it. Life as we knew it is over unless something drastic changes and that is nowhere in sight!
Sympthsical
(9,093 posts)The diminishing of women's autonomy is one of the most pressing issues we face today. I'm confident we will win on this - and we will do so more quickly than people may think. It will not be another fifty years.
However, that doesn't matter to women on the ground who need healthcare now. We need to be devoting resources to providing care and bringing women who do not have access to it to places where they can receive it. We need to fight for every state legislature in the country - a fifty state strategy. We have to win in 2024 for the Supreme Court.
There's a lot of work to do right now, a lot of suffering in the country that needs to be addressed.
But we're not a whisper away from the Holocaust and one party rule. We control half the federal government in this country, including the presidency. Where we're getting killed is in state legislatures. We need a strategy.
Calling people Nazis all day isn't one.
SickOfTheOnePct
(7,290 posts)Ive ever read here.
No, we are nowhere near being a fascist nation.
Midwestern Democrat
(806 posts)I am ambivalent about whether the invention of the internet was overall a net positive development for society. I'm certainly glad that I had no choice but to get my initial education about subjects I cared about - politics, history, film, etc. - from old media sources (books, magazines, newspapers) that were written by paid professionals who knew what they were writing about, and that my early education and perspectives on these subjects was not polluted by the nonsense posted by amateurs online whose only credentials to contribute their thoughts to a mass audience is simply having internet access.
Aaron Sorkin has expressed these same concerns, saying "I think everyone has a right to free speech, but I'm not sure everyone has the right to the microphone". On the face of it, that sentiment sounds very elitist - but with each passing year, I'm less and less sure it's an incorrect one.
Sympthsical
(9,093 posts)The promise of the Internet was that it would democratize access to knowledge.
Instead, it democratized knowledge itself.
And when you're counting on uneducated, not terribly informed people with a lot of tribal self-interest to determine for others what is true or not, we get into a lot of trouble. And when I say uneducated, I don't just mean people without degrees. There are a lot of people with degrees - even advanced ones - who do not know how to read articles and critically think about them. Right now, I have professors in school who strike me as completely mush-brained and absolutely useless in learning anything outside of the very, very narrow band of their specific expertise in direct class materials.
Being the same age as my professors has been very . . . clarifying. I was having a conversation with my constitutional law professor about two weeks ago, and halfway through I realized, "Oh my god, he doesn't actually know what he's talking about." And why would he? He spends all day sending his students Twitter posts and substack articles that align with his ideology and nothing else.
The Internet has introduced a climate where our beliefs, ideas, and modes of thinking are never challenged because we can so easily and successfully cocoon ourselves from engaging anything that would cause discomfort or instigate reassessment.
I don't know what the solution is. I'm not sure there is one. Teach critical thinking in schools would be it. But that's not really a thing in high school, and it is much less a thing in college than it used to be. College feels more and more like confirmation bias writ large. When students are actually challenged and exposed to things they don't agree with or don't want to hear, they increasingly freak out about it or complain to the administration or try to get someone censured or fired.
Not a good harbinger for the future.
Prairie_Seagull
(3,334 posts)treestar
(82,383 posts)The differences.
raccoon
(31,118 posts)Which is why I posted.
MOMFUDSKI
(5,624 posts)And I heard a great explanation of "the plan" by a guest on Joy Reid's show today. These Christo fascists will not stop until the US is no different than Iran. Scary stuff.
FSogol
(45,519 posts)Want the world to change? GOTV
Marius25
(3,213 posts)sarisataka
(18,752 posts)In upper level college courses, not even close.
Patton French
(762 posts)roamer65
(36,747 posts)The United States is going to Balkanize almost just like it.
panader0
(25,816 posts)From what I know of history, there are similarities.
Response to raccoon (Original post)
Name removed Message auto-removed
Response to raccoon (Original post)
Chin music This message was self-deleted by its author.
EndlessWire
(6,559 posts)But, it's tempered with an American style of fascism that has to overcome a lot of basic freedoms that we have/had, and the sudden explosion of unbelievably dumbass people who have crawled out of the woodwork because Donald Trump has encouraged their bad behavior.
Quite frankly, I find it impossible to believe some of the incredibly undemocratic governing that is going on. Did people really want these jackasses to rule over them?? Do they really want to have some ignorant, hateful jerk making rules for them? Why in the world did they vote in imbeciles who can't even think to ruin their lives? I dunno, sometimes I ask myself if I died and went to hell, and nobody told me.
I am appalled at the behavior and reasoning that these people are attempting to force on other people. If Trump gets reelected or otherwise takes the Presidency, we are in a lot of trouble. It is so blatantly obvious that Repubs are attempting to tear down our Democracy in order to put into place an authoritarian fascist regime. They're not doing it to feed people, or help people, or any other altruistic agenda. They're doing it for power and money; Trump wants to be a dictator, and shredding our country is the way he's trying to do it.
REPUBLICANS ARE CRAZY. Please make Donald Trump go away. Please let me wake up and hear that he has dropped dead. Feed him some more cheeseburgers, or something.
Marius25
(3,213 posts)How can you read stuff like this and not believe it?
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/florida-republicans-trans-kids-parents-bill-b2323714.html?utm_source=reddit.com&utm_source=reddit.com
SB254 which one former lawmaker has called "fascist" legislation would allow the state to rip children from their parents when they are "at risk" or "subjected" to gender-affirming health care. The bill is written so that even a child of Floridian parents living out of state could trigger the law.
Under the Genocide Convention and stated by the Holocaust Museum, the removal of children from one group to another with intent to eliminate that group constitutes genocide. That's why Putin is facing war crimes charges for kidnapping Ukrainian children and moving them to Russia.
OneGrassRoot
(22,920 posts)Like you, I see many recent startling examples such as the one you shared. What is happening in Texas and Florida and other red states is a right-wing fever dream made manifest.
I understand and appreciate the comments explaining why our situation at present shouldnt be compared to Nazi Germany and that doing so is unwise for so many reasons. Same with using the term fascism.
I wrote six years ago that it feels like Germany in the mid to late 20s. Ive used the term fascism quite often. Ive always gotten similar pushback as we see in this thread. I always chose those examples not necessarily as literal comparisons (although I see examples there too) but as historical references most people are at least aware of and know they were/are BAD.
(Interestingly, I see some of my most vocal critics years ago - all white, straight men, fwiw - saying much of what I was saying years ago. I havent interacted much at all on social media in the last two years but I am often tempted to note how women are often chastised as hyperbolic and scaremongering when really we often see reality sooner than others. Had more white men who considered themselves moderate said what many of us were warning about years ago -- or at least didnt try to diminish our warnings every single time maybe we wouldnt be here.)
I wonder if some people push back because they are being literal and have good reasons for not liking imprecise comparisons.
We simply dont have exact terms because what we are experiencing is unique to this day and age.
But what were seeing and what many vulnerable groups are experiencing is BAD. It hasnt ever been good for people in hated groups but the right-wing extremists have gained enough power and influence that its most definitely going in a much worse direction.
moondust
(20,002 posts)using all the tools they have to set up a dictatorship that will allow them to control everything and ignore the voters, blaming and demonizing the "others," staging a failed coup reminiscent of the failed Beer Hall Putsch, using propaganda extensively, etc...
some would say it rhymes.
303squadron
(545 posts)Last edited Sat Apr 22, 2023, 03:41 AM - Edit history (1)
What we have is an American style fascism; it's own variation on a theme we saw in Germany, Japan, Italy, and Spain in the 1920's and 30's. In those four instances there was a religious faction allied with oligarchy style power. Powerful religious factions do not compromise because they become convinced that they are instruments of the divine will. Barry Goldwater pointed this out years ago! As such, they become anti-democratic and willing to settle for authoritarian rule because that rule will push their uncompromising religious agenda.
"It is a truism that almost any sect, cult, or religion will legislate its creed into law if it acquires the political power to do so." ~ Robert Heinlein
WarGamer
(12,463 posts)Early 1930's
1) In 1930, the Parliamentary Democracy of Germany effectively ceased to exist, in 1933 Hitler was Chancellor... by 1934, Hitler assumed the mantle of Fuhrer and totalitarian.
For this to have an equal in 2023 USA, someone would have to become a public figure, assemble a Constitutional Convention, abolishing the Constitution and naming him/her King/Queen... or Fuhrer... and then have 3/4 of
the States ratify/vote on it.
In other words, it's ridiculous.
2) SA/SS
In the 1920's paramilitary groups formed in Germany, numbering 400,000 by 1933. State affiliated.
2023 Comparison? Proud boys? Possibly 100 active members? Active only to start fights with ANTIFA? No organization, no State recognition...
3) 1933 Anti-Jewish Laws. The State forbade Jews from working many jobs... excluding Jews from normal participation in Society.
2023 comparison? I got nothing...
yellowdogintexas
(22,270 posts)Raine
(30,540 posts)LAS14
(13,783 posts)Meowmee
(5,164 posts)Yes, absolutely yes.. And the fact that people on this very forum are still here trying to deny it tells me how ignorant people are of what is really happening or maybe its just not being able to face reality.
betsuni
(25,598 posts)Meowmee
(5,164 posts)Cosmocat
(14,568 posts)It looks very similar.
UTUSN
(70,725 posts)LAS14
(13,783 posts)Hekate
(90,773 posts)DemocraticPatriot
(4,383 posts)it sucks.
Carlitos Brigante
(26,501 posts)that thinks it's just soooo special and this sort of thing could happen here. With many of its citizens, as demonstrated by responses in this very thread, with their heads so far up their ass. That just because people aren't being shoved into gas chambers. It's all good because Biden is sitting in the WH right now. OK, let's check with Hungary and Turkey a few years down the road.
DFW
(54,436 posts)There are subliminal reminders that this is the place where it all happened, but mostly reminders that the vast majority of the people want to make sure nothing of the sort ever happens again, and never gets the chance to.
German TV, in an effort to make sure "it" never happens again, runs constant documentaries about the era, the how and why it happened, and how horrible the result was. The highly organized politicized rallies of the Nazi era, and then their socialist successors in the East, are a thing of the past, as is any kind of organized government terror against any particular ethnic group. I don't see that in the USA--yet. Obviously our extremist right seems to idolize the extremist ideology of both Hitler's National Socialists and Stalin's Soviet Union, but they seem to idolize the theocracies of Iran and Afghanistan as well. They want the total victory of the control freak, as long as they are the ones controlling. Whatever excuse or label they use seems to be of secondary importance.
Kaleva
(36,327 posts)Do they can't say they fell like they are living there.
obnoxiousdrunk
(2,910 posts)Paladin
(28,271 posts)Hortensis
(58,785 posts)we weren't with them and would have gone quiet. The Nazis also engaged extensively in murder, blackmail, character assassination, arson and other means of eliminating opponents as their path to power. Before they got control.
In areas where the Nazis were particularly active and successful, local police tended to collude with them, so while we were being beaten to bloody pulps on the street, it's very possible cops would be threatening away anyone who even glanced at what was happening. And/or joining in.
The very existence of this robust public forum is proof 2023 America is nothing like 1930s Germany. Could possibly become so in various localities, but still very far from it now.
XanaDUer2
(10,722 posts)kentuck
(111,110 posts)...I am not aware of very many lessons learned from history that would prevent us from doing it again.
Yes, it could happen here. It could be even worse than Germany.
The environment could deteriorate very rapidly if our country were to slide into a deep depression or economic collapse. The ingredients are all there, in my opinion.
Kaleva
(36,327 posts)People are going about their lives like there's nothing unusual going on instead of trying to escape the fate of being sent to the gas chambers.
Or is this a kinder, gentler form of Nazism?
leftyladyfrommo
(18,869 posts)Torchlight
(3,360 posts)seems to have a big portion of the willfully blind whistling a cheerful tune past the graveyard, the sea-lions unctuously lecture a blind calm and practical inaction, and the for-profit media does what it does best: exploit divisions that would otherwise whither on the vine.
Many differences, but some hard similarities, too.