GRAPHIC IMAGE: What the reports on Allen TX aren't showing us. TRIGGER WARNING

[pnwmom]

Last edited Sun May 7, 2023, 11:11 AM - Edit history (11)

ON EDIT:

Another DUer, Susan Calvin, has found a few-second video of the still image that was taken down. She posted it at #75, linked to here:

https://www.democraticunderground.com/100217889914#post75


ON EDIT:

CBS NEWS, about a girl: "I pulled her head to the side and she had no face."

Yesterday a photo and video showed some of the carnage, but Twitter has since taken it down, even though the photo had been blurred so that individuals couldn't be identified. (I didn't watch the video.) It showed at least one small child and several other bloodied bodies clumped together on the ground outside a store. Here's an article from the British The Daily Mail that describes some of the horror seen by Steven Spainhouer, one of the first on the scene..

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12056461/Hero-cop-took-Texas-mall-shooter-call-backup-shot-dead-gunman.html

'The first girl I walked up to was crouched down covering her head in the bushes, so I felt for a pulse, pulled her head to the side and she had no face.'

He said she was already beyond saving.

Still set on saving the mess of victims, Spainhouer recalled how he then found another child, who survived the barrage of bullets by being covered by his protective mother, who he said was among eight to die by the gunman.

Spainhouer added: 'When I rolled the mother over, he came out.

'I asked him if he was OK and he said, 'My mom is hurt, my mom is hurt.'

'Rather than traumatize him any more, I pulled him around the corner sat him down and he was covered from head to toe. [It was] like somebody poured blood on him.'

From the DU Terms of Service:

No graphic content
Do not post content that is Not Safe For Work (NSFW), which includes sexually explicit material, graphic depictions of bodily functions, or images of extreme violence, gore, pain, or human suffering. Exceptions are permitted when an image adds important context to a legitimate news story, but the post must include a "graphic content warning" in the subject line.

A photo taken from a video that's on Twitter right now. Unlike Cooper (Ex: Nat’l Finance Chair of Draft Biden; LI Campaign Chair for Barack Obama; Majority Leader Suffolk Legislature) I haven't looked at the whole video.

Link to tweet

Link to tweet

Joseph Sakran
@JosephSakran
There is a video circulating that shows the bodies outside the mall from #allentx. It’s horrific to say the least.

As a Trauma Surgeon, we often are witness to the #AmericanCarnage that results from bullets on the human body.

Maybe Americans need to see the carnage.

[OAITW r.2.0]

1. Jesus.....should be shown everywhere.

This is our Country? Are you shitting me?

[gopiscrap]

3. I agree.

[albacore]

14. No... it's not our country. Anymore. It's theirs... the ammosexuals own this country. nt

[sarcasmo]

36. AmeriGuns

[BComplex]

73. Ammosexuals....that name needs to stick to those assholes.

I'm appalled by every one of them.

[DemocraticPatriot]

108. "Ammosexuals"--- I like that word, almost more than "MAGAts" !

I will try to use it from now on

[homegirl]

96. Candoidates running

against politicians who wont back gun control legislation should use these photos in their advertising campaigns.

[mopinko]

2. it's time.

[Mister Ed]

4. Rec'd for the awful truth. n/t

[sarisataka]

5. It's what people are asking to see

But somehow I don't think it will last here

[pnwmom]

10. Since the faces have been blurred out, it doesn't seem to be an invasion of privacy.

But I'm not the decider.

[crickets]

12. I don't think it should be taken down.

There's a very clear warning in the title. Sanitizing the issue is part of the problem.

[sarisataka]

13. It depends on

if a jury thinks it violates TOS. Often a warning is not enough.

[crickets]

20. Good point, but the OP followed the rules.

Do not post content that is Not Safe For Work (NSFW), which includes sexually explicit material, graphic depictions of bodily functions, or images of extreme violence, gore, pain, or human suffering. Exceptions are permitted when an image adds important context to a legitimate news story, but the post must include a "graphic content warning" in the subject line.

It's a good rule. I understand why it's needed, and appreciate that it's there. I also appreciate that there is room for the exception, when the context is important and warning is given.

[MerryBlooms]

18. I believe it will be removed from Twitter, before here.

Absolutely horrific reality. Yet, not horrific enough for many to take a stand on state regs. Some states have taken measures on sensible gun regs, Oregon, big time this last election.

[Frasier Balzov]

41. Why would it be removed from Twitter?

Is it because Musk is a gun lover and wouldn't want a mass shooting to make guns look bad on his platform?

[crickets]

6. Absolutely horrific.

Now imagine this in a grade school classroom. Every single representative should have to look at full color, full-sized scenes like this every single time this happens. If a scene like this from each shooting (blurred faces if need be) landed on TV every single time, there would be movement on this issue. Shit would get done.

I realize this image is upsetting, but images just like this one helped finally end Vietnam.

There is no reason any country should call itself civilized and suffer these repeated, senseless tragedies. None.

[pnwmom]

11. Yes -- similar images did help end Vietnam. nt

[Deuxcents]

17. I agree. And I think it's important

To start showing the madness of what is happening every day.. sometimes more than once a day. This photo shows women and children, all innocent collateral. It’s past time for this to end.

[Straw Man]

119. It took more than that.

A lot more.

[pnwmom]

120. I said "help." They "helped" stir public outrage in a way that verbal discussions did not. nt

[Straw Man]

123. Non-verbal "public outrage" is mostly unproductive.

Opposition to the Vietnam War was a widespread, sustained, and multi-faceted effort. Demonstrations, teach-ins, civil disobedience, voter registration drives, all these tactics are what "helped" bring the war to an end. And ironically it was under the corrupt administration of Richard Nixon that the troops were finally brought home.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

19. .

If a scene like this from each shooting (blurred faces if need be) landed on TV every single time, there would be movement on this issue. Shit would get done.

What evidence leads you to this conclusion?

[crickets]

22. Having lived through the very next sentence in my post. nt

[WhiskeyGrinder]

68. People say that a lot, but it's not exactly quantifiable, nor has it been replicated.

Support for American involvement in Vietnam was dropping at that time, following a similar rate to support of American involvement in Korea. Both rates correlated to the amount of casualties in each war; Korea of course didn't loom as large in the media, particularly television.

Plenty of footage of shootings and victims is available and easily sharable. So far it hasn't made a difference.

[Caliman73]

137. Agreed. I think we underestimate the ability to most people to compartmentalize...

especially Conservatives. There is already broad support for gun safety legislation according to polls, which does not materialize in voting for candidates who would actually move on the issue.

This is not a problem of Americans "not seeing" sufficiently gory images of the damage that gun violence does. It is about the power of money in politics and the nature of political campaigns. It remains an issue of tribalism and the very strong attribute of Americans to believe that if it isn't happening directly to them, it isn't an issue.

We are the wealthiest country on earth and yet 37 million Americans don't know where their next meal is coming from DAILY and almost 14,000 STARVE TO DEATH every year.

140,000 Americans die every year from Alcohol related accidents. Preventable accidents, yet it happens year in and year out.

The level of gun violence is unique in "modern societies", to America, among peer or "near peer" nations we have the highest rates of gun violence and death. It is not because we don't see images of the consequences.

We need to address the systemic issues that make Americans more prone to acts of violence, AND specifically more acts of gun violence.

[pnwmom]

23. I remember the public horror as the images started to be shown.

For example, the naked girl running away after she'd been Napalmed.

[wnylib]

39. Why blur the faces? The families and friends of the dead

will recognize the clothing, shoes, body size and shape, hair color and will know that their relative or loved one was killed. They will feel the pain over and over when the pictures are plastered everywhere.

Every single person who advocates for publicizing these photos is advocating for destroying the lives of the survivors who were there and the loved ones of the victims through repeated traumatization, making it impossible for them to work through their grief and to heal.

[pnwmom]

74. But others won't, and need to see this. The families don't have to look at the images

and they don't have to go to the morgues -- that will be their choice. But they will have to live with the horror for the rest of their lives. The rest of us won't have to, but this is the only way for us to really understand what they're going through.

[wnylib]

99. It is naive to think that the families

just won't have to look.

A mother is in the checkout line at the supermarket, maybe for the first time in weeks or months that she feels able to get out and mingle in the world. She's relaxed and compartmentalized the loss of her child just enough to cope. As she turns to put items from her cart onto the belt that moves items up to the cashier, there is a full front page photo on a magazine rack at the register of her dead child for a follow up story. She feels blindsided, loses focus, gets a panicky felting in her gut, can't breathe, needs to get out of there. She abandons her cart, goes outside. It will be weeks before she feels able to go out again.

She goes home and hears reports on her car radio about the same follow up story that the magazine photo was about. She changes the station. At least there was no picture since it was radio.

She turns on her TV at home for distraction. There's a breaking news story about an update regarding the mass shooting that killed her child. On the screen is an enlarged photo of her 6 year old's mutilated body. She turns off the TV.

Update stories are to be expected. Much as she hates to have it all dredged up, she knows this will happen over and over. She can learn to shut it out and compartmentalize it. If that's all she had to deal with, she would make slow, steady progress in healing.

But it's the pictures that destroy her. She cannot unsee what she has already seen, and what continually crops up unexpectedly, catching her off guard at the grocery store, at home on her TV. She cannot console herself with memories and pictures of happier times because the bloody, faceless image pops up every time she looks at a picture of her child.

She goes through this because somebody believed that it was their right to shock the public with graphic images of her baby without a face, drenched in blood. But all the images have achieved in the public sphere is continued debates and arguments about gun rights. Added to those arguments are mocking sneers and claims that the photos were fakes.

Everywhere she goes, the images pop up on magazine racks, public TVs in the doctor's office, at the library, and in the break room on her job. They're on the Internet. She withdraws to shield herself. Lunch alone at her desk or in her car at work. Her marriage is strained. Some of this would have happened even without the pictures. She could cope with that. But she can't shield her other children from seeing the gory images of their sister. She was helpless to save her daughter and is now helpless to protect her living children.

Her life is a nightmare with no end.

[pnwmom]

100. The families won't accidentally view photos behind sensitivity warnings on Twitter

or graphic content warnings on DU.

Your whole story depends on OTHER uses of the photos, that are sprung on viewers in public places without warnings.

[calimary]

45. I think we HAVE TO look. We HAVE TO.

Last edited Sun May 7, 2023, 07:11 PM - Edit history (2)

Otherwise it’s all sanitized and thoughts & prayers and cleaned up. The comedian Shelly Berman used to have a routine about “cleans ‘n’ dirties”. And sometimes you also have “clirties” when the lines dividing the two concepts blur away. A “clirty” according to ol’ Shelly Berman was a cleaned-up dirty. Like all of those “sanitized for your protection” cleaned up news stories about death-by-gun where they thoughtfully spare you the literally gory details and bloody bodies - DEAD bodies.

NO. It’s NOT pretty. But we should all be painfully aware of it. And it should be in our faces until we finally have the courage and determination and the resolve to stop this carnage. And STOP these guns. If I could, I’d get rid of EVERY gun in the U.S. EVERY last damn detestable one of ‘em.

And I STILL want my two friends back. Lost when an accelerating argument ended in a murder/suicide. Fourteen years ago. And it Still. Hurts. Like. HELL. Even 14 years and two-and-a-half months later.

Ironically, only yesterday, I was at our Congresswoman’s local office with two fellow Indivisible members, and we each took an issue to make a brief presentation about whatever our topic was. I was the “gun one”. And when it came my turn, I told the Congresswoman’s two office workers my story about losing two friends to an argument that ended in fatal gunfire. And I started getting choked up. But by Jove I said what I came to say. The two young dudes listened solemnly and took some notes.

I know it won’t do much good. I have the great misfortune to be “represented” by a Republican, for the first time in my life. I know what I care about matters very little to her. But I’m not gonna shut up OR go away. I’m gonna keep leaning on her two liaison-guys. And I will not relent. OR give up. And if all I wind up doing is making them feel bad, well, maybe that’ll give them a hair’s width of an idea of how I’m bedeviled by this loss every doggone day, to one extent or other. I don’t mind talking about it, either. And every doggone day that this issue sticks out like a bleeding thumb, I’m gonna remind them.

THEY’RE the lucky ones. Everybody seated at that conference table was NOT a survivor - which I learned was what you call someone who’s survived gun violence whether it was losing someone you cared about to gunfire, or you yourself were injured by gunfire but you lived. Nobody at that table had even passing experience with gunfire to THAT degree. Maybe that’s what keeps it from being as urgent and high-priority an issue for them as it has become, for me.

And all I have to do is think back to that evening service at the beach, and remember the agonized cries of Holly’s mom.

Sorry about the rant. I guess I still carry the burden of those grieving loved ones - and I’ll keep on carrying it straight into that damn Republican Congresswoman’s damn conference room.

[slightlv]

60. I'm repped by R's, particularly nasty ones, at that...

good for you.... what you're doing. I lost a dear friend of mine in what... the very first? mass murder in Austin. He'd been 1st Trumpet to my 2nd Trumpet. He was 2 years older than I was and someone I adored. Looked up to him like a big brother all thru junior and senior high.

Charles Whitman took him away from me forever... and I've **never** gotten over it. I'm 67 years old now.

We have to do something to get these guns off the streets and out of the hands of these madmen. I'm for trying anything. Posting the pics, gun buybacks, what you're doing.

What I really wish is that *every* city in the U.S. could have a group organize itself and coordinate to have a single march against murder day (or whatever we want to call it). The more people in the march, the more impact it might have. But it would have to be in an overwhelming number of cities throughout the country. Not just something that happened here and there in little pockets.

If we came out in masses too big to ignore... maybe they'd stop ignoring us.

[Texasgal]

63. My Mother was a student and on the drag

when the shots rang out. She took safety in a book store and crawled out once the gunfire ended.

To this day, she is still emotional and has never really gotten over what transpired that day.

I am so sorry for the loss of your friend. It was a horrific situation and in the hearts of many Austinites to this very day.

[calimary]

101. Yeah. You really DON'T get over it.

Yeah, the years start mounting up, pushing you a wee bit farther away, in the marking of time. But the memory. The witnessing. The mark that it leaves. The gaping hole it leaves in your mind and your heart. That stays with you like a scar that may fade a little, or not be quite as swollen or noticeably discolored as it was at first, and maybe the skin over it tightens and toughens up. But it’s still there. It will always be there.

Always.

[calimary]

102. Well, the only answer that makes sense to me is to share the pain. Share the witness.

BE the witness. BE their representative(s). They can’t speak for themselves or describe what happened to them, but you can. Whenever there’s an opportunity to share, inform, and educate.

[ornotna]

7. It's horrible

And everyone should see it.

[groundloop]

32. It's more than horrible, but there just aren't any words that are strong enough......

And it's my hope that photos such as this be sent to GQP Congress Critters so they (or at least their staff that reads email for them) can begin to grasp what their pro-gun policies are doing to this country.

[ornotna]

42. Agreed

I don't have the words.

[roamer65]

8. GQP will attack the showing of the video.

As usual, they will call it politicization of the victims.

Too bad we couldn’t let these dead people pick a GQP’er to take their place on that cement.

[crickets]

15. Every time they claim this, perhaps the blood money amounts should be publicized.

That ought to shut them up.

The deaths? It's the GUNS. The lack of legislation? It's the MONEY.

https://www.opensecrets.org/news/issues/guns

[Deuxcents]

46. ☝️

[central scrutinizer]

25. Depends

If the shooter is Muslim or trans they will politicize the living fuck out of it. If the shooter is a white male, then we must not politicize it. And we will be told that he’s a mentally disturbed lone wolf, nothing to be seen here.

[roamer65]

37. +1000

[Frasier Balzov]

44. Some of those victims might have been strong supporters of guns in society.

It certainly is conceivable, and tragically ironic if true.

[dalton99a]

9. Kick

[msongs]

16. every year hundressd or more fake murdered people shown in tv/movies etc. nothing wrong with

showing the real thing.

[wnylib]

49. Ever notice in those films and TV shows

how first responders act with loved ones when they arrive on the scene? They do the same in the film as in real life. They shield the loved ones from looking. They get someone to take the loved ones aside. They say things like, "You don't want to see this. Remember them as they were in life."

First responders do that because they know that the sight cannot be unseen later. They know how traumatizing and destructive that such a sight can be for close relatives and friends of the victims.

But now, in the name of righteous indignation, people believe that it's ok to rub salt into the open wounds of family and friends.

What happens when the mass shooting targets are African Americans, like the shooting a year ago at the Tops Market in Buffalo? Publicize photos like that and racists will come out of the woodwork to compete with each other over who can create the most horrific scene to publicize. Mass murderers already think it's cool to live stream their killings.

This is so wrong for so many reasons.

[MarineCombatEngineer]

67. Thank you for saying what I wanted to say.

[pnwmom]

78. That's why there's a trigger warning. No one is being ambushed with the photo.

And no victim is identifiable in it.

[OAITW r.2.0]

21. These people had no "trigger warning"....why should we?

[Skittles]

24. I've shopped at that mall

[electric_blue68]

159. A gentle hand on your shoulder. It's like a normal place you know suddenly filled with deadly

visible toxins.

[Srkdqltr]

26. As I remember the tv stations started listing the names ages and home towns of all the troops killed

in Vietnam right after the national news.
Maybe stations should list names of those killed by guns at the end of the news each week.

[Straw Man]

118. Casualty lists have been a staple feature of war reporting ...

... since ancient times. Only the medium changes.

I would question the extent to which that changed the public's mind on the war.

[TeamProg]

27. WTF?!?! The GOP is KILLING US!!!

[vapor2]

28. WISH people would protest in the streets

Republicans more concerned with drag queens and banning books in lieu of gun control. Geez, I went to a factory outlet mall today and this could happen ANYWHERE!

[roamer65]

30. They won't.

On to tomorrow’s shootings.

[BlueWaveNeverEnd]

29. horrific. looks too awful to be real. Like a movie set

[pnwmom]

33. Yes. If the source was anonymous I wouldn't have posted it. nt

[orangecrush]

31. Atrocity

Horrific.

[Joinfortmill]

34. No words. they need to show it because it's the only way it will ever stop.

[LisaM]

35. God damn it.

Every Republican who represents a district in Texas should be shown this photo at a press conference and asked to comment. No dodging the reality.

Imagine going out to shop and this is how your day ends. How your life ends.

I don't know about the outlet malls in Texas but at the one I occasionally go to in Washington, the shoppers are predominantly immigrants, Hispanic and Asian (including day shooters from Canada). They have special buses and they come make a day of it. There are food courts and video games and lots and lots of kids, very family oriented. I wouldn't be surprised to hear, with all the rhetoric ramping up in Texas right now about the end of Title 42, that this was specifically a hate crime directed at immigrants. I could be wrong, of course, but......

[usonian]

38. Kick. G.D. Media have whitewashed countless murders so that they appear entirely victimless.

This is probably the first image where shooting can actually be associated with dead people.

[Alexander Of Assyria]

94. The mass killing by machine gun on a street party in Vegas was medias greatest gun coverup.

School shootings close second.

[Johnny2X2X]

40. I'm torn

I cannot imagine the pain the families of the dead would feel to see their cherished brother, daughter, sister, son, mother, or father dead or dying. It would be awful.

But I think the discussion could be changed dramatically if the public did start to see these images. We need change.

[Alexander Of Assyria]

95. Shock therapy, yes. Obviously nothing else will work

[BigmanPigman]

43. The murderer was dressed in full tactical gear...

How are we supposed to fight this?!?!?

Link to tweet

?s=20

[dchill]

56. What a guy.

[Fla_Democrat]

111. Head shot, groin shot,

That doesn't look like a plate carrier, center mass. Mozambique (failure) drill. May I recommend 5.7 x 28mm.


Assuming he didn't shoot himself, someone else shot him (police). Willing to bet they didn't use a patrol rifle, prob a 9x19 or a .40 S&W.

"Full tactical gear" isn't all it's made out to be.

[h2ebits]

47. When did this happen?

Can you provide any news reports? This is horrendous slaughter happening daily in the United States.

[pnwmom]

51. It happened Saturday, May 6, in Allen, TX. It's been all over the news today.

At the time of the first press briefing, they were reporting 9 deaths and 7 others injured, some still in critical care.

[WarGamer]

48. the kind of people who WOULD commit these sorts of crimes...

Will enjoy the images.

The people who would never think of such a thing will be horrified by them.

[pnwmom]

52. We need more people to be horrified, and to act on that horror. nt

[Deuxcents]

50. Emit Tills mother showed unbelievable strength and courage with her decision

To show what had been done to her murdered only child. It shocked the nation. The nation needed shocked as too many others were dying, too. It’s gonna take us strength and courage to confront this daily mass killings and show to our elected and those not paying attention just what this is doing to our children, mother, fathers, friends. How it’s killing the soul of this country. Some are gonna have to take deep breathes but these pictures need to be shown…shown and not blurred. Our sensitivities need a jolt of reality. Imo

[Straw Man]

64. That was her decision.

Emit Tills mother showed unbelievable strength and courage with her decision

To show what had been done to her murdered only child. It shocked the nation. The nation needed shocked as too many others were dying, too.

If family members consent to the images being shown, then it's fine. If not, then showing them is a gross invasion of their privacy. Blurring faces means nothing. As others have said, the family will know it's their loved one, and their pain will be intensified.

[The Jungle 1]

85. For the good of the nation we need to see this.

Blur the faces.

Nothing else is working!!!!

[Straw Man]

98. So we should add to these families' torment ...

... because it's "for the good of the nation"? Nope, not buying that.

[pnwmom]

104. The images on Twitter are behind sensitivity warnings, and here, too.

So no loved one needs to view them.

[Straw Man]

105. It doesn't matter.

To know that others are viewing them without the families' express permission is an appalling invasion of privacy.

[pnwmom]

106. They don't know what people are viewing. It might not be their loved ones at all.

And it's not an invasion of privacy.

1) the pictures were taken in a public place, where there is no expectation of privacy; and
2) the victims, with their blurry faces, cannot be identified by unrelated people who view them online.

[Straw Man]

107. If it were my loved ones ...

... I would not want the indignity of their gruesome deaths to be on public view, whether I had to view it or not. You may feel differently, and that is your choice. You have no right to make that choice for others.

[pnwmom]

109. I do have that right as a citizen. They chose to go in a public place

and someone else chose to kill them there.

And no one needs to view a photo behind a trigger warning who thinks it's wrong.

[Straw Man]

112. They didn't chose to be murdered.

and someone else chose to kill them there.

And no one needs to view a photo behind a trigger warning who thinks it's wrong.

Have you no respect for the dead or the bereaved? Maybe you missed my point: The affront to the families is not that they have to see the gruesome photos of their loved ones' remains; it's that thousands, or tens of thousands, or hundreds of thousands of random strangers will be viewing them.

You do not have the right to see that against their families' wishes.

[pnwmom]

113. When an attack occurs in the PUBLIC SPHERE, it's not the same as if it occurs in your HOME.

At home you have an expectation of privacy. In a public space, you don't.

Even so, in this case the video has the faces blurred out and people aren't identifiable. I couldn't even have guessed what genders they were.

[Straw Man]

114. You just don't get it, do you.

I would not want hundreds of thousands of random strangers, some with sketchy motivations, ogling the gruesome remains of my loved ones. I would consider it a gross violation of my loved ones' dignity and of the privacy of my family. I don't give a shit about "expectation of privacy." I would consider it a crude and offensive violation. You may think otherwise about your loved ones, and that's your right. But you don't get to make that choice for others.

[pnwmom]

115. What do you mean "you don't get to make that choice for others"?

You disagree with me. That doesn't make you right.

Many people here believe, as I do, that it's important for us, as a society, to not close our eyes to the damage these weapons are doing -- even when the photos are painful to look at.

Many of us remember some powerful -- very personal -- images from Vietnam, and how they helped turn public opinion around. Nothing else seems to be working to change minds about gun violence now. Maybe seeing more of these pictures would help.

[Straw Man]

116. To be blunt, I believe you overstep the bounds of common decency ...

... if you think your desire to view and broadcast the images of violent death overrides the wishes of the family members of the deceased. It's their decision to make -- not yours.

The Vietnam photographs were important in that they documented events whose existence had been denied by official sources. That is not the case here. There is no secret about what happened.

Who is closing their eyes to the damage done? Anyone who doesn't know what guns do to a human body is suffering from a deficit of both education and imagination. Dead is dead. Murder is the worst thing you can do to a person. Nobody should need a visual aid to understand that.

Is that plain enough for you?

[pnwmom]

121. "Anyone who doesn't know what guns do to a human body is suffering from a deficit of both

education and imagination."

Duh. And yet there are MILLIONS of these people. They think having lots of AR-15s in circulation somehow makes our world safer.

[Straw Man]

122. No. They know.

"Anyone who doesn't know what guns do to a human body is suffering from a deficit of both

education and imagination.

Duh. And yet there are MILLIONS of these people. They think having lots of AR-15s in circulation somehow makes our world safer.

Any hunter knows what centerfire rifles do to flesh. Many of them are former military as well. I think you don't know your "enemy" as well as you think you do. If you think these photos are going to change their minds, you are sadly mistaken.

[The Jungle 1]

127. Ok then what will work

I don't see your plan????

[Straw Man]

134. I don't have one.

I just know that this is a bad one: brutally insensitive to the survivors for no practical reason.

[The Jungle 1]

139. It worked for the Till family and it worked in Vietnam.

Mutilating children is also brutally insensitive.
The one girl had her face shot off. But we do nothing and have no plan.
An AR can easily cut a child in half. Yet we sit on our hands and rock back and forth.
Every plan we present the right and many on the left say no.
Mass murder every 15 hours. There was mass murder 100 yards from my bed! That is also brutally insensitive. What about my sensitivities, safety and liberty. Would you like to live with that reality?
This country needs a radical intervention.

[Straw Man]

141. The Till family gave their consent.

To me, that is sine qua non. You apparently feel differently and don't think we should respect the families' wishes.

The photos from Vietnam were newsworthy in that they contradicted the official line as to what was happening. There is no such revelatory function here; everyone knows what happened. You seem to think that it should be displayed as graphically as possible despite the feelings of the victims' families. I strongly disagree.

An AR can not "easily cut a child in half." That is ludicrous hyperbole. And even if it were true, it is irrelevant: dead is dead. These pictures would only serve to intensify the tragedy and loss in the feelings of the bereaved, which apparently are of no concern to you.

[The Jungle 1]

142. You still offer no solution

You have nothing. You say I am wrong but you have nothing

[Straw Man]

145. And you're still wrong.

You have nothing. You say I am wrong but you have nothing

I don't have to have anything to know that you're wrong. And you are. Wrong.

[The Jungle 1]

146. Straw man

1.an intentionally misrepresented proposition that is set up because it is easier to defeat than an opponent's real argument.
"her familiar procedure of creating a straw man by exaggerating their approach"
2.a person regarded as having no substance or integrity.
"a photogenic straw man gets inserted into office and advisers dictate policy"

We have been here in the past.
I knew going in that this discussion was worthless. You just like the confrontation and present no information or ideas.
Mutilated children deserve better.
The goal is not to determine who is right. The goal is to stop the bloody mutilation of children.
I present ideas you present nothing. Are my ideas wrong? Could be. Are yours? Oh wait you have none.

[Straw Man]

148. I'm exaggerating nothing.

You made a proposal that I consider ghoulish. I consider it pointless and offensive. Why should I not express that opinion?

I have no fondness for this confrontation. I merely wish to spare the bereaved families from further torment.

Mutilated children don't deserve to be made into a public spectacle to satisfy some stranger's notion of a solution to a problem that is complex and terrifying and that defies simplistic moralizing. You won't change anybody's mind about anything with this type of macabre grandstanding. If anything, you will be adding fuel to the firestorm of hatred, fear, and grief that is engulfing this country. Any solution is going to involve massive social change, which will take years of concerted effort and reconciliation. Shall we talk about that? Or would you prefer to just continue screaming "Mutilated children!" as if that phrase justifies whatever scheme you've concocted, regardless of its merits or lack thereof.

If it were your own child, you would have the right to make this demand. If it isn't, then you don't. It's really that simple.

[The Jungle 1]

150. You have no expectation of privacy in public.

If you don't like that fact then work to change the law.
I want the pictures published and hanging in the halls of congress until they "Do Something" to stop the mutilation of children.
You have no plan and just sit on your hands and rock back and forth.

I will concede one point. I would prefer we get permission from the family. However at this point I don't care one way or the other.
Americans and American children are dying brutal horrific deaths all over this country every 15 hours. However no plan is ever good enough. Apparently nothing will work.

Emit Till's mother changed peoples minds!!!! The pictures from Vietnam changed peoples minds!!! Your statement and entire rant is false.
Publishing these pictures would shock the nation into reality. The press did not have permission from the parents in Vietnam. The pictures from Vietnam shocked this nation, increased protest and changed minds concerning the war. That is just a fact. Do you remember the naked napalm girl??? There are also pictures of our soldiers with scalps and necklaces of ears. Which is the history many people still do not want to see. Just like our present history. Head is the sand is no way to go through life. We need to face reality.

[Straw Man]

153. Yes, you've said that multiple times.

If you don't like that fact then work to change the law.

Not worth it. I would choose to respect privacy beyond what is legally required. Apparently, you wouldn't.

I want the pictures published and hanging in the halls of congress until they "Do Something" to stop the mutilation of children.
You have no plan and just sit on your hands and rock back and forth.

And you think that will work? I don't. This is a complex problem, and you're not going to solve it with these theatrics.

I will concede one point. I would prefer we get permission from the family. However at this point I don't care one way or the other.

That's pretty obvious. Their loved ones are dead, but you don't care about their wishes as long as you can make your point. Does that sound about right?

Americans and American children are dying brutal horrific deaths all over this country every 15 hours. However no plan is ever good enough. Apparently nothing will work.

Where did I ever say that? Your plan won't work, though. You would subject their families to more grief for a very tenuous chance at making a difference. I don't see it working. I'm against it. Is that plain enough?

Emit Till's mother changed peoples minds!!!! The pictures from Vietnam changed peoples minds!!! Your statement and entire rant is false.

How many times do I have to say this? Emmit Till's family made a choice that was theirs to make. This is not your choice to make. The Vietnam pictures had journalistic value in revealing the lies that the powers-that-be were promulgating. That is not the case here.

What's "false" about that? Are you saying that Emmit Till's family didn't have the right to make that choice? That the Vietnam pictures had no journalistic value? What are you calling "false"?

Rhetorical tip: Additional exclamation points don't add any weight to your arguments.

[The Jungle 1]

154. Every 15 hours more families die.

I want it to stop. You continue to present no solutions.
The problem is not complicated. IT IS THE GUNS. Along with the right wing maggot scum who refuse to stand above politics.
This blood is clearly on the hands of republicans and the Americans who refuse to accept any solution or try anything.
There was a mass shooting 100 yards from my bed. Bullets flying every where. I was lucky.

What is false is you implying Emit Till's families decision and the Vietnam pictures didn't have a huge impact. But you went with the straw man argument. It is my choice to make there is no law to stop me.
The Greater Good, a general advantage that you can only gain by losing or harming something that is considered less important.

My hope is that more people are reading and posting the idea of publishing the pictures. I see signs that the tide is turning. Thanks for helping.

Rhetorical tip: Correcting peoples grammar is beyond lame.

[Straw Man]

155. Where do you get this "15 hours" figure?

Please cite your source so that we can examine it.

I want it to stop. You continue to present no solutions.
The problem is not complicated. IT IS THE GUNS.

I too want it to stop. But you're wrong; it is very complicated. Your solution is nothing more than simplistic magical thinking. "If we only show them these pictures, they will outlaw guns and the killing will stop." Does that sound about right? Please correct me if I have incorrectly summarized your "solution."

What is false is you implying Emit Till's families decision and the Vietnam pictures didn't have a huge impact. But you went with the straw man argument. It is my choice to make there is no law to stop me.

A huge impact? That's debatable, and we're debating it. As for the rest of this, I have no idea what you're talking about. Do you mean the choice to broadcast the pictures? Yes, it is probably legal, but doing it without the family's consent is cruel and immoral. That's just my opinion, and you've done nothing so far to change it.

Rhetorical tip: Correcting peoples grammar is beyond lame.

Actually, I was critiquing your rhetoric, not your grammar. Multiple exclamation points are the textual equivalent of screaming madly in an oral debate. It doesn't get you any points, and it doesn't make up for weak assertions.

Here's another tip: Saying something is "beyond lame" is the rhetorical equivalent of "Nyah nyah nyah nyah nyah!"

[The Jungle 1]

156. Thank you for helping me get the word out.

[pnwmom]

131. There are millions of women who are R's who support them and they're not all hunters. nt

[Straw Man]

132. Some are.

You seem to be operating under a delusion that the opponents of gun control don't know what these weapons are capable of and that making them aware of this will end their opposition. In pursuit of this delusion, you're willing to run roughshod over the feelings of the bereaved.

[pnwmom]

135. There are independents who could be influenced, just like there are

independents who can be influenced on abortion and many other topics.

They might not want to think hard about the damage these weapons can do, but a photo can tell more than even reading a book.

[Straw Man]

136. Give it up.

Please have the common decency to leave the families in peace. There is no point to this ghoulish parading of their loved ones' awful final moments.

[The Jungle 1]

157. This was posted at around noon. 45 posts so far that disagree with you.

https://www.democraticunderground.com/100217900961#post11

The majority do not support your position. You should change their minds

[Straw Man]

158. 45 that say the families' feelings shouldn't be considered?

You'd better count again, objectively this time.

In any case, I don't believe in morality by plebiscite.

[The Jungle 1]

160. Thanks for helping

[The Jungle 1]

126. Mean while down on the farm.

Nothing changes. In 15 hours more children will be mutilated. Faces shot off, babies cut in half.
The gun rights people deny any changes and will not help. You also deny any changes.
We all sit and wring our hands!!!! It ain't enough.

[The Jungle 1]

125. We have a national disaster occurring every 15 hours

Half the country does not care. How about we do something about that dignity and privacy.
Children being mutilated is the number one cause of death of children. Stop mutilating children then we won't have a disagreement.

[The Jungle 1]

124. You have no expectation of privacy in public

We have a national disaster occurring every 15 hours. We need radical responses.

[kaotikross]

53. That didn't take long.

Rep. Keith Self (R), who represents the Allen area in Congress, said on CNN that people who were calling for gun control, rather than just thoughts and prayers, “don’t believe in an almighty God … who is absolutely in control of our lives.”

“People want to make this political, but prayers are important,” he said.


God is absolutely in control of our lives? God MADE that guy murder those people? What a load of crap.

[MagickMuffin]

58. As usual they cherry pick which Ten Commandments you'll adhere to

Thy shalt not kill, isn’t very important to them.


And yet here in Texas where mass shootings occur daily, the Texas legislature voted to display the Ten Commandments in public schools. Because ya know that’ll work wonders!

[Mariana]

152. To be fair, "Thou shalt not kill" wasn't very important to God, either.

After he laid that Commandment down, he went on to order the the killing of all sorts of people for all sorts of reasons. That's what the stories say, at any rate.

[usonian]

54. If it weren't for one photo that got past the gatekeepers

We'd probably still be fighting the Vietnam war.

[Straw Man]

117. Hyperbole ...

... is not your friend.

[Quixote1818]

55. Absolutely horrific but only a fraction of the horror & torture they felt in their final moments nt

[JCMach1]

57. This is about 3 miles from my house. We shop there and often work

At the CUTX Center just on the other side of 75.

Feel very bad for the victims.

[blueinredohio]

59. Awwww!

[pnwmom]

61. And, meanwhile, in Columbus. . .

[BWdem4life]

62. It's gone.

nt

[groundloop]

70. I just noticed that.....Elon is hiding evidence

[ancianita]

65. Thank you. Twitter removed the photo and tweet. America's slow roll holocaust must end.

Just posted this on Facebook. Now waiting for my upteenth suspension.

[kairos12]

66. Show it all. Break people from their zombie gun trance.

Probably too optimistic.

[burrowowl]

69. Ki k!

[NotVeryImportant]

71. Looks like the tweet is gone now.

[TheRickles]

72. Please let us know if the clip shows up somewhere else. It could be a wake-up call.

[pnwmom]

77. It was just posted at #75 below.

[Susan Calvin]

75. I may have found it or something like it.

Link to tweet

I'm afraid to look at it. If it's what I think it is, maybe somebody could get a screenshot.

[pnwmom]

76. YES -- thank you. This is a few seconds worth of the still image that's been deleted. nt

[Susan Calvin]

79. Please save the video and/or get a screenshot.

Before this disappears as well.

[pnwmom]

81. I tried but I can't figure out how to. nt

[Susan Calvin]

82. Try pausing the video and then

Doing whatever you do on your phone to get a screenshot. With my phone it's pressing the power key and the down volume key at the same time. On a computer I think it's control print but I'm going to go look it up right now.

https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/keyboard-shortcut-for-print-screen-601210c0-b3a9-7b58-bc40-bae4dcf5f108#:~:text=Depending%20on%20your%20hardware%2C%20you,which%20can%20then%20be%20printed

According to the link it's Windows key print screen. I haven't done it in a long time so I have forgotten.

[Susan Calvin]

84. I got it.

In the process I wound up looking at it even though I didn't want to. However, I don't see any way to post it on DU. It's a file, not a link.

[groundloop]

133. That one has been TAKEN DOWN as well for violating Musk's rules.

And in my feeble little mind I'm convinced that it's simply because the right wing doesn't want to world to see what bullets do to children.

[Alliepoo]

80. Did anybody read the comments?

They’re sickening. Jackasses that have no problem with this carnage.

[MiHale]

83. No words ... KnR

[The Jungle 1]

86. All this blood is on the hands of the right.

We have presented our plans over and over. The right agrees to nothing but more blood.

[Lettuce Be]

87. These images need to be shown, every single day until something is done to rid our streets of guns

[Evolve Dammit]

88. We need to see this and own it. This is an American "problem." #1 public health Crisis.

[NullTuples]

89. We've been down this road before, and Republicans are well aware of it. CW: GRAPHIC PHOTOS, VIETNAM

This is just a tiny sampling of the images Americans began to see primarily after early 1968, when journalists stopped showing only sanitized, approved photos that portrayed a very "clean" and morally simple war. That change in reporting greatly assisted in shifting public opinion toward America's choices regarding the war and the politicians pushing those choices.

The photos that helped shift American sentiment about the Vietnam War:

Eddie Adams's photo of Brigadier General Nguyen Ngoc Loan executing a Viet Cong prisoner standing in the street.



John Filo's photo of Mary Ann Vecchio kneeling near one of the students shot and killed by the Ohio National Guard at Kent State.



Huynh Cong Ut's Time magazine cover of a crowd of people fleeing burning napalm, including a naked, crying young girl.



David Douglas Duncan's images of eight days spent with a group of Marines at Khe Sanh.

?itok=RwfgYUcr

Don McCullin's photos (there are so many)

?w=768

Philip Jones Griffiths' photo's (again, so many)



Art Greenspon's picture of medics taking away wounded while in the foreground another wounded young man lies on the ground grimacing.

[SWBTATTReg]

90. I remember these. I remember when they debated pretty seriously about showing the one guy getting

executed by the General (getting it published). National Geographic magazine, I think? Talk about disturbing.

But perhaps as some say, maybe we need to see these, as disturbing as they truly are, so the disgust that it invokes is real, is tangible, shows the damage that bullets do. Nothing else seems to work w/ these gun 'nuts' who seem to worship guns more than God (IMHO). But w/ the advent of shootings in our high schools, shopping malls, and other places where people gather, I think that we're all seeing the carnage whether or not we want to see it or not.

[Backseat Driver]

91. In Drivers Ed, so long ago, did you ever see those grisly vehicular "accident" films?

Did you cover your eyes? Do you still recall, after all those years, viewing the consequences of those uninhibited illegal behaviors while driving? Oh, those were the fault of someone else and the twisted bodies and oozing blood wasn't yours? The very least of the totalled loss--a depreciated asset--wasn't a problem either?

[pnwmom]

92. They didn't have drivers ed at my school, and that's good --

because I was well aware of the hazards, and afraid of driving already. I didn't learn till I was through college and a kind and patient friend taught me.

Now that I'm thinking about this, there was a terrible accident at my street corner when I was six, involving a motorcycle and a car. I didn't see it happen but afterwards I heard something about decapitation . . .

[Alexander Of Assyria]

93. Sterilizing war, foreign and domestic..is what American media does very well...so it continues.

And if gun deaths isn’t civil war, what is it? 14000 deaths this year already.

[The Jungle 1]

130. Sterilizing this horror is a good description.

Publish the pictures!!!

[IzzaNuDay]

97. Need more of this

Cause thoughts and prayers ain’t working!

[orangecrush]

103. My Lai, 1968

American troops committed atrocity and war crimes.

The commanding officer was convicted.

The photos appeared in many newspapers and news magazines.

Changes in the way the war was conducted resulted, at least on some levels.

The now removed photos reminded me very much of this.

We have My Lai here at least once a week now, and nothing is done.

[The Jungle 1]

128. We need to publish the pictures.

How does it go a picture speaks a thousand words.

No one cares and no one is offering any plans.
Sitting on our hands and rocking back and forth is not a plan.
Saying we should not publish the pictures without an alternative plan is not a plan.

[orangecrush]

138. Agree.

[sarisataka]

140. Should this child

6yo William Cho is the only surviving member of his family after they visited the #AllenTexas mall Saturday.

According to a family friend, his parents (Cindy and Kyu Cho) and his 3yo little brother James were 3 of the 8 killed in the mass shooting. @FOX4

https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=17894300

Have to see the graphic picture/video of his dead family?

[The Jungle 1]

143. Again you say our plan is wrong but you offer not plan.

No plan and no solution.
You sit on your hands and rock back and forth.
How will you stop the next family from this graphic result?????
Your plan is to do nothing.
In 15 hours it will happen again!!!

[sarisataka]

144. You didn't answer the question

Should the child face the aguish of seeing his murdered family time and again for a chance some minds may be swayed?

As for the rest you are wrong as well. I have campaigned for background checks, red flag laws, directly engaged gun owners to gain their support for common sense laws and more. Unlike many pro control people I have worked actively to try to improve the situation. There is more than posting online to people who agree with you.

When I tried to engage controllers, their response was, essentially, ' f-off, we don't need you.'

[pnwmom]

147. No one had to see the pictures because they were behind trigger warnings. nt

[sarisataka]

149. Here they were behind a warning

And I seriously doubt the child is a DU member..

My question is for those who want the pictures published everywhere- online, shown on TV, even on billboards has been suggested.

[Paladin]

151. The American public needs to see such pictures, on a regular basis.

The American public deserves such pictures to be regularly inflicted upon them, until something is done about the gun problem. Except for the wishes of surviving family members, no editing or insulation is warranted.

[crickets]

161. Colin Powell fooled so many for so long.

https://edwardrynearson.wordpress.com/behind-colin-powells-legend-the-my-lai-massacre/

On March 16, 1968, a bloodied unit of the Americal division stormed into a hamlet known as My Lai 4. With military helicopters circling overhead, revenge-seeking American soldiers rousted Vietnamese civilians — mostly old men, women and children — from their thatched huts and herded them into the village’s irrigation ditches.

As the round-up continued, some Americans raped the girls. Then, under orders from junior officers on the ground, soldiers began emptying their M-16s into the terrified peasants. Some parents desperately used their bodies to try to shield their children from the bullets. Soldiers stepped among the corpses to finish off the wounded.

The slaughter raged for four hours. A total of 347 Vietnamese, including babies, died in the carnage that would stain the reputation of the U.S. Army. But there also were American heroes that day in My Lai. Some soldiers refused to obey the direct orders to kill.

A pilot named Hugh Clowers Thompson Jr. from Stone Mountain, Ga., was furious at the killings he saw happening on the ground. He landed his helicopter between one group of fleeing civilians and American soldiers in pursuit. Thompson ordered his helicopter door gunner to shoot the Americans if they tried to harm the Vietnamese. After a tense confrontation, the soldiers backed off. Later, two of Thompson’s men climbed into one ditch filled with corpses and pulled out a three-year-old boy whom they flew to safety.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/oct/21/colin-powell-faustian-bargains-service-of-war

Again and again throughout his storied rise, Powell made Faustian bargains, publicly endorsing military excursions, including both Iraq wars, that he privately admitted were risky enterprises. Whether Powell knew the falseness of the intel on which his security council testimony rested, whether he genuinely failed to find evidence of the My Lai massacre or whether he regretted the first Iraq war’s toll in blood and treasure, Powell, like the military man he was, never broke ranks.

There was a time when Colin Powell had me fooled. It didn't last, and I did find out about his role in the My Lai coverup before he lied about weapons of mass destruction in front of the UN.

If I could figure it out, there was no excuse for the whole world not knowing he was a big ol' liar.

Media (and many others) turned a blind eye because it was lucrative.

The more things change, the more they stay the same.

[appmanga]

110. I've been saying for years...

...it's going to take some courageous parent to be the Mamie Till for this issue and make us bear witness to the product of one of these massacres. The public needs to see what the fascists and the gun fetishists have tried to normalize. Let the members of Congress explain on a split-screen with the photo of a child who was so badly maimed as to be unrecognizable why they're not willing to try to do anything about these weapons of war proliferating in our society. Let them explain while that picture is on the screen why they want to keep the overwhelming choice of mass killers for generations so easily available.

[The Jungle 1]

129. These pictures need to be on the walls in congress!

Just think of the stunning bravery of Mamie Till.
While we sit an type.