OK, definitely need some clarification from our attorneys here.

[WinstonSmith4740]

Watching the verdict. Is there a legal difference between rape and sexual assault? Because I'll be damned if I understand how he can be found not guilty on the rape charge, but guilty on sexual assault.

[Sneederbunk]

1. Groping vs penetration.

[Tomconroy]

2. There are a lot of ways to commit sexual assault.

Rape usually requires evidence of penetration. Jury probably felt they needed something more than her word on that issue maybe.

[Ocelot II]

6. And what was used to penetrate.

Maybe the jury didn't think he accomplished that.

[Tomconroy]

9. Lol.

[sprinkleeninow]

12. ...

🍄

[Really attempting to behave, but it's been difficult.]

[EndlessWire]

44. LOL! I love it! n/t

[Nevilledog]

29. Exactly

Link to tweet

Tweet text:

yvette nicole brown
@YNB
·
Follow
Y’all, the rape part of the charge was a “no” because @ejeancarroll said on the stand under oath that she didn’t know if she was penetrated by his genitalia because she couldn’t SEE (or I guess FEEL) his tiny mushroom.

Y’all.
Y’ALL!!!
🍄
12:23 PM · May 9, 2023

[allegorical oracle]

53. What was used and if penetration occurred; Rape can involve a foreign object or a penis.

[Ocelot II]

54. Yes, but the instruction in this case involved only the question of whether

the penetration was with a penis or fingers, because there was no evidence that any other object was used.

[Hugh_Lebowski]

3. I guessing it comes down to they didn't find it conclusive that he penetrated her with his penis

Not an attorney but that's my guess.

Trump is going trumpet that he won, jury said 'No Rape'!!!

Not looking forward to reading about that bullshit.

[WinstonSmith4740]

7. His protests of "no rape" is the first thing that went through my mind.

When it was announced he was not guilty of rape, we all knew his tweeting would start. He's claiming he was not allowed to present a defense.

[Nevilledog]

31. Reading that she couldn't tell if it was his fingers or penis because it was from behind.

[Ocelot II]

34. No rape -

because she couldn't tell his dick from his finger? Is that something he wants to brag about?

[LiberalFighter]

46. I do hope the media makes a big deal about it. :)

[Ocelot II]

47. That would be the only "big deal."

lol

[Siwsan]

4. My gut says that count was a compromise decision

Someone just wasn't able to go there. Again, just a gut feeling.

[Ocelot II]

5. I don't know what the jury instructions said, but from comments on MSNBC

it sounds like the difference must have been how "rape" was defined. Maybe the jury didn't think he was able to accomplish penetration with his icky little dick, just with his icky tiny fingers - if that's the distinction. Just yuck, though.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

11. Instructions

In written instructions, U.S. District Judge Lewis Kaplan asked jurors to decide whether the "preponderance of the evidence" shows that Trump "raped," "sexually abused," or "forcibly touched" Carroll. The jury was also asked to determine if Trump's conduct was "willfully or wantonly negligent, reckless, or done with a conscious disregard of the rights of Ms. Carroll."

I thought there was only one "charge" ("claim"?) here: defamation with sexual abuse behind it. The instructions seem to indicate that there is no separation of "rape" vs "abuse" in this case.

[Ocelot II]

14. The jury special verdict form broke it into two separate questions -

1. Did TFG rape Carroll, and 2. Did TFG sexually assault her?

[Ms. Toad]

21. Were they using the criminal definitions of those terms?

Since, in most states, rape and sexual assault would be forms of battery (as a tort).

[Ocelot II]

22. They used a definition of rape as requiring penetration

with the penis - and Carroll said she couldn't tell for sure whether it was his dick or his fingers. (lol)

[Effete Snob]

25. .

https://www.nysenate.gov/legislation/laws/PEN/P3THA130


§ 130.65 Sexual abuse in the first degree.

A person is guilty of sexual abuse in the first degree when he or she
subjects another person to sexual contact:

1. By forcible compulsion;

§ 130.35 Rape in the first degree.

A person is guilty of rape in the first degree when he or she engages
in sexual intercourse with another person:

1. By forcible compulsion;

§ 130.00 Sex offenses; definitions of terms.

1. "Sexual intercourse" has its ordinary meaning and occurs upon any
penetration, however slight.


3. "Sexual contact" means any touching of the sexual or other intimate
parts of a person for the purpose of gratifying sexual desire of either
party. It includes the touching of the actor by the victim, as well as
the touching of the victim by the actor, whether directly or through
clothing, as well as the emission of ejaculate by the actor upon any
part of the victim, clothed or unclothed.

[Ocelot II]

26. But that's the *criminal* statute defining the *crime* of rape.

The judge used a definition of rape that was distinguished from sexual assault by the means of penetration. Maybe that's what NY uses in its civil jury instructions.

[Effete Snob]

42. yes, and that is the same distinction in the criminal statute, verbatim.

[Ocelot II]

45. OK, there we have it. Thanks.

No penis, no rape. I guess Stormy Daniels' description was accurate.

[Ms. Toad]

70. Looks like the original claims were battery and defamation.

Her allegations set out a traditional (tort) battery claim, committed by means of rape. It follows with specific cites to the criminal statute.

I don't have the bandwidth for a deeper dive, but establishing rape or sexual assault would appear to be necessary to establish that Trump made false statements. (If the jury found that Trump did rape her, by the statutory definition), that establishes a false statement.)

[LiberalFighter]

49. That would be bad too.

With the way he thinks I can't fathom how he would perform in a suitable manner.

[EndlessWire]

52. Yeah, it's definitional

But, I think she testified how much his fingers hurt. I'm not surprised that the jury said "no" on the rape but "yes" to sexual assault. That's a reasonable response, IMO. They did award a decent amount of damages, so I think that signals that they were very aware of the problematic definition.

According to the Judge's instructions, I believe they could have found him guilty of the battery merely for forcing a kiss on her. So, the jury was in very safe territory when they said "yes."

The media almost always declines to use the word "rape" to describe something that happened, even when it is starkly apparent that a woman was raped. They like to term it, "sexual assault," possibly for liability reasons. I dunno, it just bugs me.

It should at least be, "attempted rape with a tiny dick."

[whathehell]

8. I heard it originally characterized as "sexual abuse". n/t

[Ocelot II]

10. Clearly, they did believe he grabbed her by the p***y.

Reporter on MSNBC is saying that Carroll said she wasn't sure whether he penetrated her with his tiny weewee because she could feel his fingers but not the other for sure.

[sprinkleeninow]

58. ...

Tiny "w**w**"...

Stop it!! 🤣

[Demsrule86]

13. no intercourse for sexual assault...but victim could not be sure he put his penis in her...couldn't

see.

[Ocelot II]

16. Considering what Stormy Daniels said, I guess that's not surprising...

[unc70]

17. She wasn't sure she had felt his penis, not just fingers

The verdict partially depended on the "size" of his manhood. Or the lack of size.

[Ocelot II]

48. I guess Stormy was right.

[LuckyCharms]

15. Not a lawyer, but just heard on MSNBC

that she could not say for certain whether his penis had penetrated her because she could not see his penis, but she knew that his fingers had penetrated her.

[Ms. Toad]

19. That would be a state law variation.

in Ohio, for example, both would be (criminal) rape.

[yardwork]

35. In North Carolina, penetration by penis into vagina is required to meet definition of rape.

This allows a lot of horrific attacks to not be defined as rape, legally.

[Ms. Toad]

61. Ohio trivia -

In 1996, John Goff persuaded lawmakers to included penetration by an object in the rape laws. In 2002 he was convicted under the statute he was largely responsible for when he had his wife inseminate his daughter with his semen.

[yardwork]

63. Wow. I'd never heard that.

[Ms. Toad]

64. Guess it was a case of being careful what you wish for.

The insemination took place about 3 years after the law was enacted.

Here's an article with the bare bones: https://www.cleveland19.com/story/772816/scheme-to-impregnate-daughter-lands-local-woman-in-jail/

I'd forgotten that it was someone else "getting away with" molesting the same stepdaughter he later impregnated that triggered his crusade to get the law changed.

[Ms. Toad]

18. He was not found guilty of anything.

This is a civil case. Guilt is a criminal concept.

He was foud liable for sexual assault. Without knowing the specific state laws, the precise differences aren't clear. In general, there isn't either rape or sexual assault as a tort. Both would fall under the tort of battery (unwanted touching). I haven't looked at this specific case/state laws to see if individual torts exist.

As a general rule, in criminal cases, rape requires penetration (mouth, anus, vagina), but sexual assault does not. Other distinctions exist as to the level of force/coercion used (i.e. there could be penetration in both - but in sexual assault there might have been consent by a person who is incapable of giving consent (inebriated, age, etc.). I would guess they used that definition here.

The laws vary from state to state - but the general rule is that rape is worse (more violent/more invasive) than sexual assault.

[Effete Snob]

24. .

https://www.nysenate.gov/legislation/laws/PEN/P3THA130

[Ocelot II]

27. That's the criminal statute. I'd like to see the civil jury instructions.

[Ms. Toad]

30. I haven't found anything yet -

Since, as a general rule rape and sexual assault are just forms of the tort of battery.

But the jury was obviously asked about something more specific (as they would have to have been since the defamation claim was tied to her allegations of rape). I'm curious what definitions they used.

[Ocelot II]

32. I can't find them either; it looks like you have to buy the book.

Maybe the transcript will turn up on line before long.

[Effete Snob]

39. Try the docket

They used the criminal definitions

page 19

https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.nysd.590045/gov.uscourts.nysd.590045.102.0.pdf

18. Sexual Abuse
A person is liable for sexual abuse when he subjects another person to sexual contact
without her consent. The following terms used in that definition have a special meaning:
“Sexual contact” means any touching of the sexual or other intimate parts of a person for
the purpose of gratifying the sexual desire of either party. It includes the touching of the defendant
by the plaintiff as well as the touching of the plaintiff by the defendant, whether directly or through
clothing. Sexual contact takes place without a person’s consent when the lack of consent results
from “forcible compulsion.”

19. Rape
Under New York law, a person is liable of rape when a person engages in sexual intercourse
with another person by forcible compulsion. It is also required that the sexual act was committed
without consent. Sexual intercourse takes place without a person’s consent when the lack of
consent results from forcible compulsion. Forcible compulsion, as mentioned earlier, means to
intentionally compel by the use of physical force.
For purposes of this law, “sexual intercourse” means any penetration, however slight, of
the penis into the vaginal opening. In other words, any penetration of the penis into the vaginal
opening, regardless of the distance of penetration, constitutes an act of sexual intercourse.

[Ocelot II]

51. Thank you! I should have thought to look there in the first place.

[Hortensis]

65. Yes: NY law defines rape as including SEXUAL INTERCOURSE.

That's a very common, standard distinction under the law in many states and nations.

[Effete Snob]

40. It's on the docket

They used the criminal definitions

page 19

https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.nysd.590045/gov.uscourts.nysd.590045.102.0.pdf

18. Sexual Abuse
A person is liable for sexual abuse when he subjects another person to sexual contact
without her consent. The following terms used in that definition have a special meaning:
“Sexual contact” means any touching of the sexual or other intimate parts of a person for
the purpose of gratifying the sexual desire of either party. It includes the touching of the defendant
by the plaintiff as well as the touching of the plaintiff by the defendant, whether directly or through
clothing. Sexual contact takes place without a person’s consent when the lack of consent results
from “forcible compulsion.”

19. Rape
Under New York law, a person is liable of rape when a person engages in sexual intercourse
with another person by forcible compulsion. It is also required that the sexual act was committed
without consent. Sexual intercourse takes place without a person’s consent when the lack of
consent results from forcible compulsion. Forcible compulsion, as mentioned earlier, means to
intentionally compel by the use of physical force.
For purposes of this law, “sexual intercourse” means any penetration, however slight, of
the penis into the vaginal opening. In other words, any penetration of the penis into the vaginal
opening, regardless of the distance of penetration, constitutes an act of sexual intercourse.

[Ms. Toad]

60. Thanks!

(Too sick to resesarch right now . . . not COVID, but not much brain power for the last couple of days.)

[Effete Snob]

62. I know how you feel.

I’m starting to think I have periodic mild depression. Nothing dramatic, but just can’t get out of a rut for a few days.

[yardwork]

36. Good luck with this. Many have tried...

[Hortensis]

66. Shocking, huh? You'd be less shocked in France,

where, since 2018!, any violent penetration, or even oral-genital sex, can be considered rape.

Before 2018 the definition of rape required sexual intercourse.

[GoodRaisin]

20. Rape he did it, sexual assault he tried.

Not a very good outcome for the slobfather. But he told the world that he was a sexual assaulter so that part was clearly pretty easy for the jury.

[yardwork]

37. Not exactly.

Apparently, per the judge's instructions, it's entirely about what he did it with. The jury found him liable for sexual abuse.

[GoodRaisin]

56. But the judge allowed the Hollywood Access tape too. Trump told the jury exactly who he was

when they heard that recording. And, then he didn’t even show up to defend himself.

The jury didn’t hear enough to prove penetration but enough to easily believe everything else happened exactly as she said. The reason for the quick verdicts.

[yardwork]

57. Right. I'm just saying the rape issue is a technicality.

Trump "did it" and was found liable.

[GoodRaisin]

59. Understood.

[Effete Snob]

23. Here

Read the definitions.

Read the offenses entitled "rape" and "sexual abuse".

Understand that this is only for NEW YORK;

https://www.nysenate.gov/legislation/laws/PEN/P3THA130

[Ocelot II]

28. What are the civil jury instructions? The criminal definition might not apply.

[Effete Snob]

33. From what was partially transcribed here...

...it sounds like a stroll through §130

Link to tweet

Battery, forcible touching... etc.

[Effete Snob]

38. The criminal definitions were used

page 19

https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.nysd.590045/gov.uscourts.nysd.590045.102.0.pdf

18. Sexual Abuse
A person is liable for sexual abuse when he subjects another person to sexual contact
without her consent. The following terms used in that definition have a special meaning:
“Sexual contact” means any touching of the sexual or other intimate parts of a person for
the purpose of gratifying the sexual desire of either party. It includes the touching of the defendant
by the plaintiff as well as the touching of the plaintiff by the defendant, whether directly or through
clothing. Sexual contact takes place without a person’s consent when the lack of consent results
from “forcible compulsion.”

19. Rape
Under New York law, a person is liable of rape when a person engages in sexual intercourse
with another person by forcible compulsion. It is also required that the sexual act was committed
without consent. Sexual intercourse takes place without a person’s consent when the lack of
consent results from forcible compulsion. Forcible compulsion, as mentioned earlier, means to
intentionally compel by the use of physical force.
For purposes of this law, “sexual intercourse” means any penetration, however slight, of
the penis into the vaginal opening. In other words, any penetration of the penis into the vaginal
opening, regardless of the distance of penetration, constitutes an act of sexual intercourse.

[Ocelot II]

41. A penis is necessary - but since Carroll couldn't tell for sure

what she was being penetrated with, the jury couldn't find that she was raped as defined. And not being found liable for rape as defined isn't something TFG can brag about. LOL.

[Effete Snob]

43. "A penis is necessary"

Well, not just any penis. It would have to have been his penis.

Hence, the inability to identify it as one.

If he had borrowed a penis, maybe.

[Ocelot II]

50. His is apparently indistinguishable from a finger.

[Effete Snob]

55. Presumably his finger doesn't ejaculate

...although Carroll's team didn't go out of their way to attempt to compel Trump to provide a DNA sample, as was specifically noted by Judge Kaplan when he denied Trump's late attempt to produce it.

[Hortensis]

67. The definition in most states is similar in that rape is

differentiated from other forms of sexual assault by sexual intercourse, but not all. The trend is to expanding on that old limitation.

[Tommy Carcetti]

68. Assault is the fear of imminent and offensive contact.

So the jury may have felt there was enough to show he threatened to rape her, but not enough evidence of actual rape.

[Effete Snob]

69. Also wildly different between states

Things like “assault” have wildly different definitions among states.

The NY definition of “sexual assault” is linked upthread.

No, in NY, “sexual assault” requires physical contact.

[ExWhoDoesntCare]

71. IANAL, but it is my understanding that in NY

Rape is penile penetration. Any other kind of penetration falls under sexual assault.

So since Ms Carroll by her own admission wasn't sure what kind of penetration he subjected her to, the jury deemed the penetration sexual assault, not "rape" as per NY's definition of it.

And he wasn't found guilty of anything; he was found liable for sexual assault, among other things.

There is a difference between guilt and liability.

A guilty verdict is the result of a criminal case conviction that can result in legal punishment of some kind, up to and including incarceration.

This was a civil case with a finding not of guilt, but of liability that requires compensating the plaintiff. A finding for the plaintiff about liability does not result in a jail term or sexual offender registry for the defendant. He has to compensate the victim. In this case, in the form of a $5million award