Why I won't join in with the cheering that Trump is "Guilty" of "Rape".

[brooklynite]

I'm happy that E Jeanne Carroll has had justice, and Trump's anti-social behavior is now a matter of public record. But in spending time discussing issues here and on social media, I've learned the that good communications is based on a common understanding of "language". Words have specific meanings, which is why we have a lot of different ones. When I write or say something, I want the meaning to be clear. Trump isn't GUILTY, because "guilty" is a status that is derived from a "conviction" in a "criminal trial". And he was found to have committed SEXUAL ASSAULT because "rape" is a version of sexual assault which has a specific definition that wasn't asserted by Carroll and wasn't proven by the jury. I'll stick with the actual terms.

[sprinkleeninow]

1. Hi there.

[marble falls]

2. There are different ways to get the whole salami. One is one slice at a time. We're getting the ...

... whole salami. Be of good cheer!

[BeyondGeography]

3. And we'll let someone else handle messaging

[Ocelot II]

4. Thank you. I've been ranting about exactly this

but have been dismissed by some as being overly legalistic and ignoring what the public sentiment will be. But words have meaning, and in the law their meaning has to be exact. Carroll did say in her complaint that TFG "raped" her, and in common understanding rape can mean any penetration, but according to the law that pertained to this case, rape has a specific meaning having to do with how and with what penetration was accomplished. Since she was unable to state with certainty whether TFG used his tiny fingers or his tiny penis, the jury couldn't conclude by a preponderance of the evidence that he raped her per the instructions they were given and were obligated to follow. He was found liable for sexual assault as defined by the applicable law, but he is not guilty of it under the law. Guilty has a specific meaning in the law, which is that either a jury has determined beyond a reasonable doubt that a defendant committed the crime he was charged with, or that he pled guilty to that or maybe some lesser crime. TFG is not guilty of rape as far as the law is concerned, and I think we should care about what the law means.

[Effete Snob]

9. I'm just glad it's not my turn today

Sorry you got the short straw this morning.

[Ocelot II]

10. You want to take over?

[emulatorloo]

21. I appreciate the precision of both of you.

[Effete Snob]

22. Naw...

I'm getting my holes patched. I'll take the next one.

You're doing fine, champ, just keep standing back up.

[TwilightZone]

29. The amusing thing is that the OP...

got it wrong, too. Trump was found liable for sexual abuse, not sexual assault.

I think accuracy is important, but I also think those of us who feel that way are fighting windmills on this one.

Well, this one and about a million others.

[Funtatlaguy]

5. The good news is that he now officially a "convicted sexual abuser".

Rapist would be better.
But, apparently, she couldn’t be sure what his penis and fingers felt like.
And I can’t believe that was the differentiation. But it was.

[Ocelot II]

8. He is not officially a *convicted* sexual abuser. He's a *liable* sexual abuser.

This was a civil trial in which convictions do not and cannot occur. Convictions happen only in criminal trials. He was not charged with criminal rape because the statute of limitations ran many years ago. I explained the difference here: https://www.democraticunderground.com/100217897245

[Mossfern]

23. I had to explain this to my husband

who told me that he was guilty or convicted - this was a civil trial, not criminal - no "guilty" verdict.
I calmed him down that it still means that he lost his case and now has to pay.

I smell a MAGA fundraiser coming up.

[Ms. Toad]

31. No, he is not.

That is the point of the OP.

This was a CIVIL trial, not a criminal one. Convictions are the result of criminal trials, not civil ones.

[unblock]

6. Outside of a New York courtroom, what he did is widely understood to be rape

Ok, it wasn't proven that what he did was legally considered "rape" per New York statutes.

But outside of the courtroom, words also have meaning, and any forcible penetration is widely considered to constitute rape, whether it's done with a penis, fingers, or an inanimate object.

So I won't say he was "convicted" or anything, I won't say he was *found* guilty, nor can I say the jury found that he committed rape as defined narrowly by NY law. But I certainly can say he is guilty of having raped her. Because by a preponderance of evidence, a jury found that he did do what most people consider to be rape.

[whathehell]

25. Thank you..

I believe you've nailed it.

[Ms. Toad]

34. Guilty - no.

A jury did find that he committed an act most people consider to be rape.

That still doesn't make him guilty - since guilt is a legal standard which requires a jury in a criminal trial to find, beyond a reasonable doubt, that he committed the act (that fits in a specific definition).

[unblock]

42. No, "guilty" is not exclusively a legal term.

My daughter is guilty of not keeping her room clean and Donnie is known to be guilty of adultery.

Neither of these are criminal situations, but that doesn't mean the term has no meaning outside a courtroom.

So it's fair to say he *is* guilty because that not a legal determination. A jury *finds* someone guilty and that has a specific meaning and process behind it. So we shouldn't say Donnie was *found* guilty because he wasn't.

But saying he *is* guilty of having done something for which we're using a non-legal interpretation of ("rape" in the common sense that includes unwanted penetration regardless of with what), that's fine.

That said, either way, one should be clear on the definitions when trying to make a specific point.

[Ms. Toad]

51. Context is everything.

These pronouncements are being made within minutes and hours after a civil jury verdict, in which commission of a specific crime was alleged (as the means by which battery was committed) and are obvious references to the verdict by people who don't understand (or choose to use alternative facts to characterize) the verdict.

Unless your daughter was just found liable in a civil trial for failure to clean her room, or Trump was just found liable in a civil trial for committing adultry, the situation is not the same.

You'd be better off just saying he raped or sexually assaulted her. That is consistent with the verdict, without twisting the meaning of the words.

Most people truly do not understand the distinction between a civil trial and a criminal trial (as evidenced by all of the initial insistence here that he was actually legally guilty), before the rationalization (as a secondary reaction) set in.

The distinction is important, since there are a lot of things associated with a criminal conviction that do not come into play here (potentially losing his voting rights, jail time, registration on the sexual offender's list).

[unblock]

56. Fair point. Personally I'm fine with calling him a rapist

And anyone who *still* supports him a rapist supporter.

[Ms. Toad]

57. Fine by me.

My issue is with the use of the terms guilty and convicted, wich have specific meanings.

[Chainfire]

7. Good for you.

I do not worry about the technical inaccuracy. Trump has no concept of truth, so I have no obligation to speak the "truth" about him. His rules... I have called Trump things in the past, that I can not prove in a court of law such as traitor, sleazy, scumbag, asshole, M* F*, lying SOB among others, so I will not be morally burdened about inaccurately calling him a rapist when he really just a sexual abuser.

I do know that it is not correct, and I don't care! There have been a number of post that have tried to chastise people over the issue today and I hope that they can get over it before they have a coronary.

[Ocelot II]

13. "When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said... 'it means just what I choose it to mean

— neither more nor less.’

’The question is,’ said Alice, ‘whether you can make words mean so many different things.’

’The question is,’ said Humpty Dumpty, ‘which is to be master — that’s all.”

You can choose to assign whatever meaning you want, but if we are shouting from the rooftops that we are the people who value the law, shouldn't we care about what words mean in the context of the law, not just what we want them to mean?

[Chainfire]

19. I am not at all interested in treating Trump fairly.

One of the great problems is that Democrats and other progressives are facing today is that we are involved in a dirty war for the soul of the nation, but we feel bound to fight against chains and brass knuckles while abiding by the Queensberry rules; look around, it is not working, and we are not winning; that Donald Trump is the leading candidate for the Republican nomination for President is evidence of that.

In the coming days, if I see a case of real justice breaking out, I may learn to respect the legal system a bit more.

There's a sign on the wall, but she wants to be sure
'Cause you know sometimes words have two meanings

[ProfessorGAC]

26. Got.Your.Back

The "let's not be like them" approach is a failure.
I'm with you 100%.
We owe nothing resembling fairness or accuracy to TFG & his cult.

[llmart]

44. Me too.

[Ms. Toad]

36. Sounds like the DU version of alternative facts. n/t

[Celerity]

45. +1

[Tarc]

11. Donald Trump is a rapist. End of story.

[rsdsharp]

12. I agree wholeheartedly with your position regarding specificity of language.

That said, she did allege in her complaint that Trump’s actions, inter alia, constituted rape in the first degree pursuant to NY Penal Code §130.35, and rape in the third degree, §130.25.

The first question on the verdict form asked the jury to answer whether Trump had committed rape. They answered “No,” aand found instead that he had committed sexual abuse, which was also pled in the first degree, §130.65, and in the third degree, §130.55.

[11 Bravo]

14. No problem. I'll cheer enough for both of us.

[Hugh_Lebowski]

15. Agreed. But some of us are sticklers about accuracy, and some of us aren't

It's going to get annoying to everyone if some of us are constantly correcting others on this point. I mean I get it, I'm fricking anal about preciseness in language, but ... I'm going to try not to claim fault in other DU'ers ...

Also, if we're being precise ... it's sexual abuse, not sexual assault

[ecstatic]

16. Weird issue to be angry and condescending about.

First of all, nobody is cheering, at least not me: trump is a disgusting thug and I'm pleasantly surprised to see him being held accountable more. I'm especially surprised knowing that 6 men were on the jury. I made assumptions about them (I didn't post my assumptions), but I was wrong. Thankfully.

Also, the very first thing that was announced was that the jury said "no" to the rape question, so I think everyone here is pretty clear on that.

Third point: In the case of trump, I believe the victims regardless of what a jury says. As I'm sure you're well aware, many people are never held accountable for crimes they've committed, but that doesn't mean that they didn't commit those crimes.

[Chainfire]

20. I am cheering! I have to take my pleasure where I find it.

Apocalypse Now

Kilgore:
You smell that? Do you smell that?... Napalm, son. Nothing else in the world smells like that. I love the smell of napalm in the morning. You know, one time we had a hill bombed, for twelve hours. When it was all over I walked up. We didn't find one of 'em, not one stinkin' dink body. The smell, you know that gasoline smell, the whole hill. Smelled like... victory. Someday this war's gonna end...

[edhopper]

50. I had the same thought

Strange reaction to Trump being found a sexual predator in a Court.

[maptap22]

17. Really tired of all the

Mansplaining here on DU. Please just let us have a second of happiness over this verdict. We don’t need the lectures.

[Elessar Zappa]

18. He's not guilty legally but

I’ll continue to call him guilty.

[Emile]

24. The magic R beside his name means more than republican.

[ProfessorGAC]

27. Pointless Pedantry

[Ms. Toad]

37. If it's pointless pedantry,

Why isn't he headed to jail?

Why aren't his voting rights revoked?

Why isn't he being added to the sexual predator list?

All of these are consequences of being found guilty of rape in most jurisdictions.

[TwilightZone]

28. Sexual abuse, not sexual assault.

I agree that the "guilty of rape" claims are incorrect, but if you're going to chastise others about terminology, it might be a good idea to use the correct terminology yourself.

[boston bean]

30. I don't agree. He was found to have sexually abused her, which in turn

means he inserted something into her vagina, this was found to be true by the jury itself! Most likely his fingers, as that was what was asserted, because he was in back of her, and she testified she could not determine for 100% it was his penis or his fingers. Here in MA that is rape.

So, I’ll go with rape I don’t care how NY narrowly defines rape.

He stuck something up her vagina. Glad to know you don’t consider this rape or him a rapist.

A jury of his NY peers found him to have done so, makes it easy enough for me to state he has been found guilty of rape.

But you go ahead and keep slicing this woman’s victory into a paper thin nothingness.

[Hortensis]

38. Actually, NY's definition, sexual intercourse required, is still very common

and similar to laws in many states. But it is being expanded in various ways by others.

The rage of some that he wasn't convicted of rape probably equal those of others that he was convicted of anything. Speaking of similarities.

[Ms. Toad]

39. The jury did no apply the standard necessary to find him guilty.

The standard for a conviction is beyond a reasonable doubt. The civil standard is preponderance of the evidence.

I'm absolutely thrilled with her victory. It takes nothing away from it to to avoid using alternate facts when speaking about it.

[boston bean]

43. I can say he is guilty of rape.

Cause he is.

[Ms. Toad]

46. You can say it,

but it is an alternative fact.

I have no quibbles with anyone saying he raped her. By the common understanding of that term, the jury found that he did. I wouldn't have any quibbles even if the jury had reached a different verdict, since I have no doubt he did rape her.

But "guilty' has a very specific meaning - it means a criminal jury, beyond all reasonable doubt, determined that he raped her (according to the legal definition).

Here a civil jury, by a lesser standard (preponderance of the evidence) found that he committed something short of rape.

[boston bean]

47. Quibble away. I do not care.

[BlackSkimmer]

40. You are not alone in this.

At all.

[Tommy Carcetti]

32. I am cheering that he is *liable* for *sexual assault*.

And defamation.

I agree with you though. We are happy, but words do matter.

No sense (accidentally) distorting the truth when the truth itself is still pretty fucking damning.

Celebrate responsibly!

[LAS14]

33. Thanks. I like to thing one of the attributes of Democrats...

... is clear thinking, adherence to facts.

[LAS14]

35. On the other hand....

.... we are free to believe that he did commit actual technical rape according to NY law. Carroll just didn't know for sure. So the jury couldn't claim it as true. But they sure didn't claim that he DIDN'T actually insert his penis into her.

[Hortensis]

41. :) Me too, and agree. They lacked sufficient evidence to convict on

NY's definition of rape. (But it sure looks like they would have been inclined if the evidence and law made that possible.)

[llmart]

54. Which is why I'll still call him a rapist.

As far as I'm concerned he is one, and I'd wager my life that this wasn't his first rape.

[GoodRaisin]

48. Mere semantics in the grand scheme of things as they are.

Wouldn’t want to be left alone with a “rapist” or a “sexual predator”. They kind of imply the same same dangerous individual.

[Kaleva]

49. Media is reporting that tfg had been found liable

I've looked at the headlines of over a dozen sources in the news section of YouTube and none used the word "guilty".

[Bucky]

52. Thank you for standing up for nuance & specificity in a world that doesn't respect it

The conversation will inevitably get dumbed down and then polarized into meaningless poses. For this fleeting moment, it's good to realize the bigger truth that as Democrats we're all that stands between this grotesque monster and all the harm he wants to do to our country and our people.

[grantcart]

53. Good luck on that

I have given up on "just because you are a traitor doesn't mean it's treason".

Convictions on sedition helped on that whole distinction.

[helpisontheway]

55. I wish he could be labeled as a sexual offender..Nt