its time to pressure companies to leave florida and texas

[moonshinegnomie]

in floridas case start with the airline. imagine the effect on florida if for example airlines had to start canceling service to the state because their employees dont want to fly there. in texas imagine if a few large companies announced they are relocating to freindlier states....

[Meadowoak]

1. Tax incentives from blue states might help lure some over.

[MichMan]

2. I thought we oppose corporate welfare?

Now it's OK if corporations get a pass on paying taxes?

[Arthur_Frain]

3. No no no, its corporate warfare

and we’re in favor of that!

[Zeitghost]

6. Disney Seems to be getting a lot of support around here

Last edited Fri May 19, 2023, 10:02 AM - Edit history (1)

for their special power to self regulate, self tax, self zone and self permit.

Throw in the lefts new found love of foreign military intervention and you start thinking we may have entered into some new alternate reality.

[Marcus IM]

8. A long while ago, DUers were opposed to Disney's special fiefdom status

Now that POS DeSantis is against it ... Flip flop .

[Zeitghost]

17. indeed

I've mentioned more than once here that if Disney were trying to cut a deal with the State of California to carve out their own municipality separate from the city of Anaheim and Orange County with whom they have butted heads for decades , progressives here would be livid.

[Phoenix61]

9. Disney built every single bit of infrastructure needed for

the park, all roads, water and sewer lines, electric lines, telecommunications, etc. The park is in two separate counties (to which they pay property taxes.) Can you imagine the nightmare of having to pull permits in two counties for one attraction or one road?

[Zeitghost]

15. Sorry

But the power to permit, zone, tax etc. belong with local government, even when we don't like the local government.

Disney has managed to build successfully in communist China, they can figure out the bureaucracy in two separate Florida counties.

[Phoenix61]

27. The issue was neither county had the funds to provide

the infrastructure the park needed without which the park couldn’t be built. Disney doesn’t tax. I’m not sure where you got the idea they did. They pay property taxes like any other business. They issue bonds to finance the cost of the infrastructure, again, something neither county was able to do.
The deal Disney struck with China has nothing to do with the deal they made with the state of Florida. Disney signed a contract in good faith with the state of Florida. Both parties are legally obligated to the terms they agreed to.
Maybe look into special districts especially those in Florida.

[Zeitghost]

28. So you do what every other municipality does

And make the developer pay for the needed infrastructure for their project directly.

Disney did set taxes (property assessments) through the former Reedy Creek District. The District would asses property owners in the district (Disney) and then use the money to fund infrastructure projects. There is no reason why the county could not do the same as it was ultimately Disney paying either way.


Disney was not in a contractual agreement with the State of Florida for infrastructure services, they were given complete control of a municipal government within the state through which they were allowed to self regulate, self tax (assess), self zone and self permit. Call me crazy, but that's not a liberal or progressive concept.

[Phoenix61]

29. I'll try again. Neither county, at that time, had the ability to do that.

I didn’t say Disney had a contract with the state of Florida for infrastructure services. I said they had a contract with the state and both were expected to honor it. Not a clue what liberal or progressive has to do with it. It was practical. Disney did pay for its own infrastructure directly by issuing bonds to raise the capital. The tax assessment it to provide services. The local community didn’t pay for anything.

[Zeitghost]

30. Both counties

Had the power and authority to regulate and charge developers for infrastructure costs related to their projects.

If you don't understand how allowing corporations to self regulate and set their own zoning and permitting regulations is antithetical to progressive and liberal ideas, I'm not sure anything I say will make sense.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

31. Florida had a right to withdraw from the agreement

Florida had a right to withdraw from the agreement and they could have cited a multitude of reasons for doing so. What they could not do is withdraw from the agreement in relation for Disney exercising its First Amendment rights. There's lot of case law on this.

[Zeitghost]

32. The problem is looking at it as a contract or agreement

The Central Florida Tourism Oversight District (formerly Reedy Creek Improvement District) is a municipal government, not an agreement between Disney and the State of Florida and as such is under the complete authority of the State of Florida.

Had Disney not created their own little governmental kingdom and instead operated Disney World like they do all of their other parks and as most other corporations run their operations, they would not be subject to this attack from Desantis and Florida because as you said, it would be a violation of their rights to be targeted like that.

But Disney made a deal with the devil and now they are reaping some of the negative consequences of that deal. Florida has not technically done a thing to the Walt Disney Company, they have only exercised their power to regulate and control local municipal governments that they created in the first place.

Disney has reaped the benefits of this sweetheart deal for decades, this may be the first time it has bit them in the ass.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

34. Governor DeSantis has made it abundantly clear

Governor DeSantis has made it abundantly clear the actions the Florida legislature has taken at his demand is in retaliation for their opposing his "don't say gay" law. That's a chilling restraint of free speech. I can't wait to see the discovery. There's already a mountain of evidence in the public domain

[Phoenix61]

33. I understand exactly how it works.

You, however, don’t seem to understand what that area was before Disney came in. So, for the final time, neither county had the ability to create the infrastructure Disney needed. There was nothing there but swamp and orange groves. They didn’t have the staff to do the job. They didn’t even have the expertise to know what staff they needed. They didn’t have the HR staff to hire the staff if they figured it out. They didn’t have the legal department to create the RFP’s or the contracts for the work to be done. Unique situations require unique solutions. This solution didn’t cost the counties a single cent. They assumed no financial risk.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

35. California is arguably the most progressive state in the nation

It's inarguably the most progressive big state in the nation. It has 3,300 special districts. I am not going to concede, a priori, all special districts are inherently regressive. In the current instance Florida has 1,800 special districts. Why is DeSantis and the Florida legislature leaving them alone? You are correct. When the Reeedy Creek Districts was created in 1967 there was no infrastructure.

[Zeitghost]

38. Special Districts are fine

I've been deeply involved with a number of federally created reclamation districts here in CA that are controlled by property owners in them.

Creating special districts for the express purpose of allowing a single corporation to control its zoning and permitting processes is what I (and any other good liberal) should have a problem with. It's out and out corporatism.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

39. I would have to see how a district exercises its power before I can condemn or applaud it.

The Reedy Creek District has existed for fifty-six years and the Florida legislature never questioned its authority until Disney criticized Florida's draconian "don't say gay" law which has now been extended to the 12th grade. Imagine an LGBTQ teenager in a Florida high school, the abject horror he or she must feel, but I digress. Here's DeSantis in his own words:

"[Disney] pledged themselves to mobilize their considerable corporate resources out of the coffers of this Burbank, California-based corporation to overturn the rights of parents in the state of Florida, and effectively commandeer our democratic process."

https://www.usnews.com/news/the-report/articles/2022-04-29/romance-between-business-and-the-republican-party-hits-the-rocks

The Florida legislature could have cited a multitude of reasons to strip the Reedy Creek District of its power. The one reason they could not do it is to punish Disney for exercising its First Amendment rights.

[Phoenix61]

42. They, the 1,800, haven't pissed off DeSatan... yet. nt

[NowISeetheLight]

49. Awful Taxes Though

We are also #48 in the tax foundation rankings for business climate.

https://taxfoundation.org/2023-state-business-tax-climate-index/

https://taxfoundation.org/state/california/

I looked at Kansas which is #25 so right in the middle.

[Zeitghost]

37. I don't think you understand

That counties and cities everywhere directly charge property developers for the needed infrastructure costs associated with their projects or force them to build it themselves in order to secure the building permits and zoning changes. When a new development goes up, the developer pays for traffic control improvements, extensions of water and sewer connections, road widening etc. as part of the deal.

The counties didn't need the money or resources to do it themselves, they just had to make Disney pay for it (which they did ultimately anyway) as part of the permitting process.

What they didn't have to do was hand Disney complete governmental control over that process.

[Phoenix61]

41. Once again, I do understand.

1. Disney agreed from the beginning they were going to pay for all improvements to the property.
2. Developers pre-pay for infrastructure? Of course not. Municipalities build it then charge the developer after it passes inspections. Except in this case the counties didn’t have the money to buy the asphalt let alone anything else needed to build the infrastructure. They also didn’t have a credit rating that would allow them to float a large enough loan.
3. You think the permitting department in either of those counties had the staff to keep you with what Disney was doing?😂😂😂😂😂
4. No idea where you live but I can promise you municipalities pick up the cost for infrastructure all the time in an effort to be “competitive” to developers.

[Zeitghost]

43. They do pay

But they do not have to. Plenty of developers pay for and build out infrastructure (at least in municipalities they don't control politically which is admittedly too common) at their own expense in order to secure zoning and permitting.


Let's not pretend that this is the only way to develop large commercial endeavors. Disney got a sweetheart deal with almost complete control over their own little kingdom, something very few businesses get. And you and others are bending over backwards to defend this corporatist BS because of common political rivals that happen to overlap for a brief moment in history.

[Phoenix61]

44. Sweetheart deal? Seriously? Disney assumed all the risk.

Taxpayers didn’t spend a single cent. I’ve lived in Florida my entire life and my feelings about Disney haven’t changed. They don’t have a damn thing to do with who is in office and your accusation that they do is offensive. Putting Disney in the same category as “plenty of developers” is beyond laughable. Disney is 27,000 acres (40 square miles) which is the same size as the city of San Francisco. It’s the largest theme park in the world! Calling it a “large commercial endeavor” is possibly the understatement of the year.

[FBaggins]

45. If you do - This post doesn't demonstrate it

Municipalities build it then charge the developer after it passes inspections.

No - municipalities build it and fund that construction by issuing tax-advantages bonds that are supported by the anticipated tax revenue generated by the eventual development the infrastructure supports. That's exactly the same process that was followed for RCID - except that the corporation controlled the municipality.

They also didn’t have a credit rating that would allow them to float a large enough loan.

That's silly. The underwriting for the bonds is supported by those future tax revenues and the likelihood that they will eventually appear. RCID didn't even exist at the point you're discussing. It obviously didn't have a better "credit score" (or whatever you're imagining) than the counties did. If Oceola shows up at the bank one day and said "we have this large well-established company that wants to spend hundreds of millions of dollars that will support tax revenues for decades to come" the bank wouldn't be looking at the tax base that supported the fire truck they financed last year. And RCID would be using those same revenue predictions to support their bond underwriting request.

You think the permitting department in either of those counties had the staff to keep you with what Disney was doing?

Once again. RCID didn't even exist at the time. They had no permitting department or staff expertise. Everything that the counties would have had to do to prepare for a project this size had to be done by RCID.

The special district had almost nothing to do with the counties' ability to support WDW and almost everything to do with a large corporation wanting a sweetheart deal.

[Phoenix61]

47. You seem determined to stay clueless about the nature

of central Florida pre-Disney. Without that knowledge you’ll never understand why there wasn’t any other way to make Disney happen.

RCID had the backing of Disney. Banks just had to believe in Disney.
For the counties, banks would have to believe the county could pull off the scope of work. If they could get backing the bonds would have to be approved by the elected officials (of both counties) and some types of bonds have to be voted on in a general election (in both counties.)
https://mrsc.org/explore-topics/finance/debt/types-of-municipal-debt

“Nobody is exempt from meeting Building Code. It doesn't matter who you are, or what you're building. As mentioned above, most Disney property falls under the jurisdiction of RCID, which is a governmental agency. RCID maintains the EPCOT Building Code, which was implemented in the 60s and has been updated and maintained since then.

In most cases, it is more strict than other building codes, but it was necessary because "regular" building codes didn't account for some of the unique types of structures Disney needed to build. For instance, in 1965, Florida didn't have fiberglass buildings or faux rockwork in their building code. And therefor, Disney wouldn't have been able to build the castle or Jungle Cruise (examples).”

https://forums.wdwmagic.com/threads/why-does-disney-world-need-building-permits.886911/

Would it be easier to attract talent to work for RCID or the local county government. (times two) RCID, as you noted several times, was brand new and would be involved in cutting edge projects. If you think it’s the local county government I’ll go back to you need to learn what central Florida was like pre-Disney.

“The district, through legislation from the 1960s, allows Disney to govern its own properties and levy extra taxes on top of what local governments charge. Those taxes pay for a variety of services on Disney properties.”
https://www.tallahassee.com/story/news/local/state/2023/02/06/disney-reedy-creek-improvement-district-in-florida-what-is-it-and-how-does-it-work/69875766007/

You keep calling it a sweet heart deal. What exactly is so sweet about it? What did Disney take away from the state of Florida?

[Phoenix61]

50. You really, really need to learn what central Florida was

like pre-Disney.
1. You are assuming the municipalities would own the roads but that’s not the case. The property belongs to Disney. Unless you’re suggesting the counties would build the roads and just give them to Disney. Doesn’t seem very liberal though.

Both counties would have to issue bonds which would have to be approved by each county commission. Some types of bonds are required to be approved by voters in a general election.

Each county would have to build a sewage treatment facility. Additional fire departments would have to be built.

The bank absolutely would be looking at the tax base from the previous year in case the business deal doesn’t work out. The project took over 6 years to build. During which time there was, of course, no income being generated.

There weren’t building codes in Florida for anything like Disney. Hence the EPCOT building code. Are you seriously suggesting that either of those counties could afford the necessary talent to create that? There were a whopping 263,000 people in Orange County in 1960 and 344,000 in 1970. Osceola was at 19,000 in 1960 and 25,000 in 1970.

https://www.rcid.org/doing-business/building-department/epcot-building-codes/

“The special district had almost nothing to do with the counties' ability to support WDW and almost everything to do with a large corporation wanting a sweetheart deal.”

Wrong, it had everything to do with supporting WDW and if you took the time to learn what was in central Florida pre-Disney you’d know that.

Exactly what was the sweet heart deal Disney got?

They pay property taxes to both counties but get no services.

“The RCID was originally conceived as a drainage district, created on May 13, 1966, to allow the Disney Company to begin preparing the land for construction. Almost a year to the day later, the Reedy Creek Drainage District was expanded into an improvement district, broadening its authority.”

“Projects within the District are paid for by taxes unique to the District that are levied against its landowners (again, the majority being the Disney Company), and this property tax rate is three times higher than the maximum for surrounding counties and cities, in addition to special maintenance and utility taxes that are also levied.”

https://home.heinonline.org/blog/2022/06/history-and-repeal-of-walt-disney-worlds-special-tax-district/

They are literally taxing themselves to provide the level of services they want. How is that a sweetheart deal?

[FBaggins]

46. The enemy of my enemy must be my friend...

... is a logical fallacy.

But common on political sites.

[orthoclad]

4. No, I think it's time

to protect voting rights in Florida and Texas.

The fascists are in power by voter suppression and intimidation.

Economic boycott is effective, and labor actions such as the alleged trucker's boycott of Florida are effective, but it's a mistake to wreck economies that support working folks.

We're not at war with the workers of FL and TX. The fascists are the enemy. Let's be careful of "collateral damage".

[Johonny]

5. I'm wonder how Toyota feels now after moving

From California to Texas.

[Marius25]

10. Toyota continues to donate to Jan 6th supporters

So I'm sure they're fine with it

[Deuxcents]

7. The Florida governor had a go at it with the cruise lines during the pandemic..

Some complied and some did not

[Marius25]

11. I'm surprised we haven't seen more comments from companies

bout how unfriendly Florida now is to businesses. I'd love to see big name corporations call Florida out.

[moonshinegnomie]

13. id like to see sport teams start boycotting

no super bowls or ncaa events in either state.

[HAB911]

21. Agreed!

That would have an immediate effect

[roamer65]

12. It's time to start planning for the inevitable.

Florida MAGAt climate deniers need to be identified, not allowed to move north and left to swim.

[flying_wahini]

23. Always so scary to imagine the people living on coastal areas as they watch in happen.

Imagine picking up your family and leaving for higher grounds , new towns that aren’t going to be underwater within another generation.

[LAS14]

14. I'm betting their own employees will exert sufficient pressure. nt

[pinkstarburst]

16. That will hurt regular citizens

including democrats. In 2022, 44% of Texas voted for Beto. That's almost half. Moving jobs and companies out of red states doesn't just hurt Greg Abbott. It hurts:

-women
-POC
-people with disabilities
-families who depend on those jobs
-LGBT people

All in that 44% who voted for Beto. Texas is voter suppressed. Texas is gerrymandered. Texas has terrible people in charge at the state level twisting the local laws to ensure they stay in power.

[moonshinegnomie]

19. and not pressuring those states hurts more

[orthoclad]

22. There are other ways

to pressure.

Don't play games in Florida venues.

Wear drag on stage, always.

But mainly -- protect voting rights. Take those election police to court, for one.

[flying_wahini]

24. And we just lost our Election Boss in Fort Worth. He couldn't take it anymore.

[Lancero]

48. And on the flip side, moving jobs and companies into blue states helps all those groups.

In the new state.

State A loses a job, State B gains one.

And thats even before considering that some of these jobs may be niche enough to require the employer to pay for certain workers to relocate. So for some of those groups, they'll be given a easy out to escape a Red hellhole in favor of a more humane blue state.

[Emile]

18. It's time to close down military bases in ungrateful states.

[moonshinegnomie]

20. i agree

and the next time a hurricane hits florida,oh well........

[orthoclad]

25. Bases are abortion havens.

What I'd really like to see?

A "balanced budget" requirement. Where red states would have to levy enough taxes to pay for the bennies they get. And make it a progressive tax scale, where the plantation bosses pay more.

[onenote]

26. fortunately, the president and secretary of defense would not do something that stupid

Leaving aside the political fallout, which would be immense, just consider Florida and Texas (two states that presumably are "ungrateful" ) . There are more than two dozen military bases in those states, with thousands of service personnel and civilians. Relocating those facilities, and personnel, would cost billions. And would, rightly so, be viewed as contrary to our national defense interests.

[Hortensis]

36. Okay. But if you would, please let me know where YOU live so

I can pressure the jobs and the revenue needed for schools, services, etcetera, to abandon YOUR town.

Just my preference.

Imagine the world if karma was real and people had to fear that wishing ill on others would come home.

[New Haven]

40. Just a garl darn minute Pilgrim --Obama won Florida

Here's some numbers for us to chew on. Florida voter registration 2022 Republicans 5,312,122---- Democrats 4,928,168 ---- And how many people are being transferred from California by Disney? So to you naysayers on DU, when you are ready to take arsenic be sure it is only ArsenicLITE. Democrats will be back just keep the faith.

For the Naysayers when you say but---but----but--I say have a little faith in the MOUSE.

Florida is a keeper and it has been purple for a long time. Just look to the north a few miles where the two US Senators are Democratic.

I say let's keep Disney in Florida . add several thousand to voter rolls

I'd say it's a bit too early for arsenic

[ecstatic]

51. Texas would be hard

From my understanding, regulation is so low that they allow entire towns to blow up with little or no consequences.