German police to probe Pink Floyd star Roger Waters. He wore a satirical Nazi costume during concert

[spanone]

German police to probe Pink Floyd star Roger Waters after he wore a satirical Nazi costume during concert

—

Police in Germany have launched a criminal investigation into Roger Waters, the co-founder of Pink Floyd, after he appeared dressed in a costume resembling a Nazi uniform during two concerts in Berlin last week.

Waters was wearing the costume while performing from Pink Floyd’s 1979 concept album “The Wall,” in which the album’s protagonist hallucinates that he is a fascist dictator. The satirical routine has been a part of Waters’ solo shows for at least 30 years, including a famous live performance of the album in Berlin in 1990. This week appears to be the first time the German government has launched a criminal investigation following his performance, however.



Berlin police spokeswoman Jennifer Bähle confirmed to CNN Friday that Waters is being investigated for suspected incitement during two concerts in the city last week, on May 17 and 18. ”We have received information from the public including pictures and videos which according to the external appearance are suitable for fulfilling the offense of incitement to hatred,” she said.

”The State Security Department at the Berlin State Criminal Police Office has initiated a criminal investigation procedure regarding the suspicion of incitement of the people (140 Paragraph 4 of the German criminal Code),” a statement by Berlin police sent to CNN reads.

https://www.cnn.com/2023/05/26/entertainment/roger-waters-nazi-scli-intl/index.html

[Hassin Bin Sober]

5. Why? Because he speaks out against fascism?

The guy’s father died fighting the fascists when Waters was a baby.


This is more about people disagreeing with his stance on BDS and the Palestinian situation. His cringe takes on the Ukrainian situation don’t help either (imo he’s gone around the bend on that subject).

He’s already won court cases over this act and he will continue to win cases because the idea this act glorifies fascism is simply ludicrous.

He can’t be blamed ignorant right wingers have adopted his symbols anymore than Norman Lear can be blamed when ignorant right wingers claim Archie Bunker as one of their own.

[Initech]

21. Wait so was he mocking Nazis?

This article made it seem like the opposite.

[Scrivener7]

2. What an asshole.

[Maru Kitteh]

42. Who?

Did you know this has been part of Waters' condemnation of Nazis for more than 3 decades? Did you realize Pink Floyd has been antifa long before that was a word?

Did you just read a headline.

[WarGamer]

51. agreed 100% But a small correction.

ANTIFA is short for Antifaschistische Aktion, a German Communist Party group established as a counter to traditional governments in Europe, even pre-hitler.

"ANTIFA" is around 100 years old.

Recognize the logo?

[Maru Kitteh]

56. Wow! Duly noted, and thank you!

Didn't know that.

[Hugh_Lebowski]

3. JFC this outfit/theme was in the 1982 movie Pink Floyd The Wall

Though it was Bob Geldof wearing the outfit in the movie back then.

It's part of the lore of the fucking album/story/movie.

Waters is far from perfect and I disagree with him on a lot of shit he's said and done, but this is ridiculous

His dad was killed by the Nazi's. He's not a sympathizer.

[TheProle]

7. Waiting for the Worms

I hope they nail Sir Bob's ass as well.

[Hugh_Lebowski]

11. When I was 16 and on mushrooms at Pink Floyd The Wall movie ... I understood the artistic statement

The character was shot up with drugs (after already being on drugs) so he could go on with a concert ... and is hallucinating that he's a fascist leader ... because the Nazi's killed his father in WWII, and he hates the music industry of the 1970's.

It's a dream sequence, it's 45 freaking years later, and everyone knows 'the point' by now.

[TheProle]

13. "and everyone knows it by now."

Do they, though?

I was 16 when it came out, too.

Please say you agree with me that leaving the extended version of Empty Spaces/What Shall We Do Now off the album was heartbreaking? It was the most poignant scene in the movie for me with its combination of animation and song.

&ab_channel=PinkFloyd4K

Movie lyrics not on the album:

What shall we use
To fill the empty
Spaces
Where waves of hunger roar?
Shall we set out across this sea of faces
In search of more and more applause?

Shall we buy a new guitar?
Shall we drive a more powerful car?
Shall we work straight through the night?
Shall we get into fights?
Leave the lights on?
Drop bombs?
Do tours of the East?
Contract diseases?
Bury bones?
Break up homes?
Send flowers by phone?
Take to drink?
Go to shrinks?
Give up meat?
Rarely sleep?
Keep people as pets?
Train dogs?
Race rats?
Fill the attic with cash?
Bury treasure
Store up leisure
But never relax at all?
With our backs to the wall

[Hugh_Lebowski]

24. It was a very unfortunate omission ... that's one of the best parts of the movie

But fun fact ... I have the original gatefold vinyl from circa 1980, and the lyrics of What Shall We Do Now? are actually there in the lyric sheet ... even if the song is not on the record, only in the movie. If you want I can dig it up and take a pic, but I promise it's true.

[TheProle]

26. YES!

I remember that, and it was also included in a slick picture book I have somewhere from the film.

Good to reminisce. Hope you have a great holiday weekend.

[Hugh_Lebowski]

27. I have that book too :)

I might've kinda, ya know, walked outta the record store with it, cause I didn't have 10 bucks when I was 16 in 1982, and I saw it and I REALLY wanted it? I mean maybe that could've happened, I'm not admitting to anything ... and pretty sure I still have it in a box somewhere

It's literally like the only thing I've ever pilfered, that's why I specifically remember it

[debm55]

64. But was it allowed to to be played in Germany. Germany has very strict rules of Nazi wear. As a Jew

I agree. I knew it and don't live in Germany.

[AZSkiffyGeek]

4. He did the same thing in 1990, 2010, 2012 when he played The Wall in Berlin

Not to mention when Floyd played the Wall in 1980-81. Nobody cared then.

Dude's an antisemitic tankie asshole, but this is stupid.

[FakeNoose]

6. Yeah see, it's against the law in Germany

... and they don't care that he's not German either.

Even if you hated Hitler and the Nazis, it doesn't matter. There's no public displays or performances allowed because it can easily be misconstrued. It can easily be turned into something else, something completely different. The Germans KNOW this and that's why it's illegal.

Roger Waters lives in Germany now, and he doesn't KNOW this? OMG how stupid can he be?

[TheProle]

8. Wearing a made-up symbol that's part of a concept album's universe is illegal?

Can you provide the statute?

[Hugh_Lebowski]

12. Thanks ... this is ridiculous (nt)

[debm55]

65. Hugh, I know you like the band as do I . However Germany have ever right to have their rules. He

should have know what the rules are in Germany.

[iemanja]

14. Here

https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/englisch_stgb/englisch_stgb.html

The German penal code prohibits publicly denying the Holocaust and disseminating Nazi propaganda, both off- and online. This includes sharing images such as swastikas, wearing an SS uniform and making statements in support of Hitler.
https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/article/germanys-laws-antisemitic-hate-speech-nazi-propaganda-holocaust-denial/

[TheProle]

15. Okay.

Now, show me the swastika in the pic in the OP and/or show me a pic of a real-life Nazi (any era) wearing the Pink Floyd War Hammers insignia.

Alternately, you can show me the statute that bans this.

[iemanja]

18. I showed you the statue that covers what Waters did

It's also well known that dressing in Nazi gear is illegal in Germany. That you don't like the law is inconsequential. You're free to dress as a Nazi in this country, but Germany views things differently because of their past.

[TheProle]

19. Please point to the Nazi Gear.

That you don't understand how fictional symbolism works is inconsequential.

[iemanja]

22. I didn't make the law

What I understand isn't relevant here. I gave you the statute, as well as the PBS article that summarized the law. Obviously, they are investigating so there is a statue in question, and I provided a link to it. You seem to think the fact it's symbolism matters. The German police and courts will determine that. You act like I have something to do with Germany's laws. Arguing with me over the existence of a law accomplishes nothing. It's also a colossal bore.

[TheProle]

23. You seem easily bored.

I personally think they're paying lip service to the investigation to calm down the easily bored / ruffled.

I'll bookmark this thread and come back and eat crow when Germany finds him in violation or, for that matter, if they go after Star Wars Stormtroopers or policemen on Sesame Street.

Have a great weekend.

[iemanja]

36. I said nothing about whether he'll be found gulity

I have no idea whether he will. I merely provided you a link to the statute. Quite strangely, that bothered you. Perhaps next time don't ask for something that you don't want to see?

[TheProle]

38. It only bothered me

because there is no Nazi-specific imagery in Waters' act and German audiences, as pointed out in another post, see real Nazi regalia in TV shows and movies without government sanction.

I have an issue with government regulation of art. But I'm an American and this is Germany's business. Still I find it intriguing and interesting.

As for not asking for something I don't want to see... I never asked for the statute; I asked rhetorical questions:

Wearing a made-up symbol that's part of a concept album's universe is illegal? Can you provide the statute?

One doesn't exist.

Now, show me the swastika in the pic in the OP and/or show me a pic of a real-life Nazi (any era) wearing the Pink Floyd War Hammers insignia. Alternately, you can show me the statute that bans this.

One doesn't exist.

Please point to the Nazi Gear. That you don't understand how fictional symbolism works is inconsequential.

There is none.

[iemanja]

40. Verbatim: " Can you provide the statute?"

Here you conceded that he was using Nazi gear. https://democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=17948247

The courts will determine whether Waters' behavior meets the terms of the statute, not you and not I.

[TheProle]

41. Now I'M bored

We can just leave our exchange as it is for posterity.

I’m satisfied with the points I’ve made.

Thanks for the discussion.

[ForgedCrank]

55. There's another

point to be made here as well, at least that's how I view it.
That point is what anti-free speech laws can lead to. Even though I understand the spirit of the specific German law in question here, and totally understand why it's there, I disagree that it should be a law at all.
Waters most certainly is not wearing anything Nazi or SS. We know what the symbolism means and why, and it's him mocking the ideologies people can fall into, no matter how absurd or evil. But the law, written as it is, is now being stretched outside of it's written boundaries. That is the danger people are always warning of.
It's a good example argument for why speech and words should never be banned. It's reach and bounds can become unshackled and used to crush people.
Anyway, i just wanted to make my silly point that was a bit off topic.

[iemanja]

62. I wonder if part of it

Is that Germany doesn't like to be reminded of their Nazi past.

[ForgedCrank]

63. Indeed, I'm

sure that is part of it.
We have our own historical embarrassments in our own country, and it seems to me that modern Germany wants to make it well know that they will not allow those things from their past be associated with who they are now. But as is often the case, good intentions in law can lead to unintentional or even intentional abuse or misuse. That appears to be the case here, at least in my view.
Either way, I still consider my point valid. Banning words and images or any kind of free expression isn't a great idea in the long run.

[Happy Hoosier]

59. Very evasive.

Rogers is a dick. But no reasonable interpretation of that sequence from The Wall could interpret is as pro-nazi.

Yea, Germany has a law. Good. Waters’ performance cannot be reasonably be interpreted as violating that law (IMO, of course)

[iemanja]

60. Evasive?

I provided the statute. That is literally all I did. I didn't offer an opinion. End of story.

[Happy Hoosier]

61. Yeah. Sure. NT

[EX500rider]

29. Well I'd point to the Nazi era helmets and the Mp40 Nazi submachine gun and the SS style trench coat

.webp

[TheProle]

30. From Deutsche Welle (DW)

Swastikas and other banned symbols can, however, be displayed in Germany if they are used for "civic education, countering anti-constitutional activities, art and science, research and education, the coverage of historic and current events, or similar purposes," according to the Criminal Code.

That means that movies and TV shows — Quentin Tarantino's Inglourious Basterds and Amazon's The Man in the High Castle, among them — are usually allowed to be distributed in Germany even if they feature swastikas and other Nazi symbols.

https://www.dw.com/en/germanys-confusing-rules-on-swastikas-and-nazi-symbols/a-45063547

[EX500rider]

31. I was asked to point to the Nazi gear, I did so.

The MP 40 (Maschinenpistole 40) is a submachine gun chambered for the 9×19mm Parabellum cartridge. It was developed in Nazi Germany and used extensively by the Axis powers during World War II.

[TheProle]

33. You did, indeed

[speak easy]

34. It is not the same gun.

It is not even a real gun at all.

[EX500rider]

49. However it's quite obviously modeled on that gun

[speak easy]

50. "However it's quite obviously modeled on that gun"

So was the M3.

[EX500rider]

67. Yes but when paired with black trench coats & Stahlhelms

It evokes Nazi MP40's more than GI M3s

[TheProle]

25. Not all Germans.

&ab_channel=RammsteinOfficial

[ForgedCrank]

52. But he

wasn't dressed as a Nazi.

[iemanja]

54. The German police and courts will determine whether he was

Looks like a Nazi to me, but I have no say in the matter.

[LakeArenal]

20. I guess that's why they are investigating.

I have no opinion either way about Waters.

I just know there is more Nazi symbolism in US than you’ll ever find in Germany. Germans are very clear about their feelings on the matter.

[Happy Hoosier]

58. Okay, waters is a dick, but....

He is a wearing a uniform that is used to explicitly criticize fascism… not disseminate nazi propaganda.

Waters should be castigated for a lot of things, but not this. This is stupid.

[LakeArenal]

16. There's this....

The German penal code prohibits publicly denying the Holocaust and disseminating Nazi propaganda, both off- and online. This includes sharing images such as swastikas, wearing an SS uniform and making statements in support of Hitler.


https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/article/germanys-laws-antisemitic-hate-speech-nazi-propaganda-holocaust-denial/

[TheProle]

17. Please see post 15.

[BlackSkimmer]

43. He's not wearing a swastika anywhere.

Or an SS uniform.

Please see The Prole's posts in this thread.

[ruet]

48. You Can Provide Every Piece of Proof That You Can Muster.

The die is set and nothing will convince them otherwise. We've done this shit to ourselves somehow.

[BlackSkimmer]

53. Yes, I'm afraid you are exactly right. nt

[malaise]

9. That effin simple

Keep your effries at home

[malaise]

10. That effin simple

Keep your effries at home

[Mysterian]

28. This guy's got a few screws loose

What an embarrassment to the legacy of Pink Floyd.

[ruet]

44. "The Legacy of Pink Floyd"

JFC! The Wall IS the legacy of Pink Floyd. The internet hit brigade strikes again.

[Mysterian]

70. That's like, your opinion, man.

I would say Dark Side of the Moon.

Russia-loving anti-Semite Waters tarnishes the legacy.

[ruet]

71. There's No Doubt...

DSOTM is a great album but The Wall was what catapulted them to superstardom and granted them wide-spread musical immortality. If not for The Wall they would just be another King Crimson or Mothers of Invention. Well known by music folks but not really a cultural phenomenon. In other words, it really tied the room together.

[speak easy]

32. This guy has been wearing that jacket for years.

It is part of the wall story.

[BeyondGeography]

35. Roger Waters is a political moron

Link to tweet

?s=46&t=UDtLaS-w7g67AF4Q2Xb1mg

He uses our free speech laws to say shit here that would get him imprisoned for life in Russia. Here, we throw money at him which he gladly accepts. Go ahead, Rog, start your next gig in Moscow by showing an image of Putin with a “War Criminal” label under it…see what happens.

[WarGamer]

37. Sorry this is idiotic.

This is the theme and insignia from their 1982 movie/song video.

They are NOT Nazi symbols as defined by German law and the German gov't never made a fuss from 1982 to today.

FFS...

[Maru Kitteh]

46. This. Waters does and says some really stupid things, but this

is art always intended to shame and demonize Nazism. It is not Nazism. It wasn't in the 70's/80's and it's not now either.

[ruet]

47. Incredibly Stupid,

and the misinformed virtue signalers will double and triple down on their ignorance in perpetuity. We have abandoned logic and critical thinking over that last decade and it's maddening.

[dembotoz]

39. he should know better

[edhopper]

45. Are they going to arrest

the actor who played Hitler in Downfall?

[Mosby]

57. Why did he drag Anne Frank into his bit?

Last edited Fri May 26, 2023, 10:47 PM - Edit history (1)

If it isn't about Jews and Israel? What does Frank or the journalist have to do with the Wall album?

Link to tweet

ETA: what does "resist Israeli anti-semitism" supposed to mean? Is he playing the "Palestinians are semites" game? Sure seems like it.

Link to tweet

[LudwigPastorius]

66. He doesn't make it easy to give him the benefit of the doubt.

[ZonkerHarris]

68. Fuck roger waters

[XorXor]

72. This guy is an asshat, but reeks of some borderline authoritarian attack

That purely motivated by his idiotic statements. It's something I would expect in Russia or China, not so much in the west. Its stretching the laws to cover something it is not supposed to.