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Pototan

(2,959 posts)
Fri Jun 2, 2023, 08:32 PM Jun 2023

How fucked up is the USA?

Last edited Sat Jun 3, 2023, 12:26 AM - Edit history (1)

In order to make my point, you have to try and set your mind to a more normal time in America. I'm 70 years old and I was involved in national and state (Massachusetts) politics for all of my adult life. For the previous 20 years I was in an influential position as a union political director, and I sat on boards for local and statewide union endorsements and donations. I also lobbied the state legislature for legislation beneficial to unions and workers. I retired last year and moved, with my 67-year-old Filipina wife of 20 years to Iloilo province in the central Philippines. Retiring here was a decision we made 15 years ago, so I don't want to give the impression that anything in America drove me away. However, recent events, as I will list in this post, makes me not miss my homeland.

How fucked up is it that a person who created a fraudulent college and had to settle by paying $25 million dollars to the victims could be considered for President?

How fucked is it that a person who was fined $2 million for a fraudulent charity and was barred, along with his family, from ever participating in a charity again in the state of New York?

How fucked up is it that a man who paid hush money to a porn actress to remain silent about having sex while his 3rd wife was home nursing a newborn son?

How fucked up is it that a person's business is convicted of fraud and his long time CFO is imprisoned?

How fucked up is it that a man, who is credibly accused of sexual assault and found responsible for that act by a unanimous verdict by a jury of his peers and more than 20 other women have made the same, or similar accusation?

How fucked up is it, that even in his early years, he needed to settle a federal government case of discrimination.

How fucked up is it that this same man avoided draft service by fraudulently claiming a deferment for non-existent bone spurs and then criticizing a national hero, POW, for getting "caught"?

How fucked up is it that this same man, as President and since, praises dictators like Putin and Kim Jong Un?

How fucked up is it that this man conspired in an insurrection against our duly elected government?

How fucked up is it that this man tried to bully and threaten state election officials, in his own party, to overturn their state's elections?

How fucked up is it that this man took sensitive documents with him when he left office and refused to return them in direct violation of the espionage act?

How fucked up is it that Donald Trump can receive 44% or 45% of the vote in two national elections and by anyone's best estimate, will receive at least 40% of the national vote if he is the Republican nominee and probably will receive at least 50% of the vote in Republican primaries.

The Philippines has its political problems. Marcos Sr. and Duterte. I get it, it's not a perfect world. But the Philippines doesn't pretend to be the shining beacon on the hill that all democracies should follow. Their new constitution was approved in the late 1980's. But they do have one provision that is better than the US; there is no Electoral College. They have a novel Democratic principal which is different than America. The person with the most votes wins. (Sarcasm intended)

In a mature Democracy (234 years old), to think a piece of shit like Donald Trump, can be the overwhelming favorite to receive the nomination of one of the two major parties and have about 40% of the citizens think it's a good idea for him to run the government is, well, fucked up.

As I said in my intro, my wife and I decided to retire to the Philippines long before Trump emerged as a political figure. So, I didn't leave America because of Trump. But it's because of Trump, and the millions of Americans who support that asshole, that I don't miss my homeland.

And that's fucked up.

91 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
How fucked up is the USA? (Original Post) Pototan Jun 2023 OP
Kickin' Faux pas Jun 2023 #1
I saw a car with a cheerleader-parent insignia and a profane epithet against POTUS and VP. John1956PA Jun 2023 #2
And that is a good example of how normalized hate and gun violence has become. Evolve Dammit Jun 2023 #72
If Trump wins in 2024 you will see millions of folks leaving the USA... including me. honest.abe Jun 2023 #3
The Philippines is not above criticism... Pototan Jun 2023 #7
I didnt mention that but my wife has made the same comment to me. honest.abe Jun 2023 #9
They also don't claim to be a shining city on a hill, choie Jun 2023 #30
Same. Initech Jun 2023 #83
Excellent rant PJMcK Jun 2023 #4
This message was self-deleted by its author PJMcK Jun 2023 #4
Never forget... Donald Trump is but a symptom of the disease. WarGamer Jun 2023 #6
That's my point Pototan Jun 2023 #8
+1000 absolutely. WarGamer Jun 2023 #11
Kinda' what I was thinking. As has been said... Septua Jun 2023 #23
The Underbelly of a dead bottom-feeder is always yellow. czarjak Jun 2023 #54
Trump's a focal point; he validates their hate. patphil Jun 2023 #55
K&R musette_sf Jun 2023 #10
How fucked up? Totally fucked up. CaptainTruth Jun 2023 #12
Absolutely NowISeetheLight Jun 2023 #13
I agree with you... Pototan Jun 2023 #15
It's so unbelievable and just so sad. Funtatlaguy Jun 2023 #14
Thank You Teammate BOSSHOG Jun 2023 #16
All. Iggo Jun 2023 #17
Wow TexasDem69 Jun 2023 #18
it is a sick country, for sure NJCher Jun 2023 #19
Thank you for posting these many points. It boils down to our media TeamProg Jun 2023 #20
To be fair, the Philippines has its own political issues to deal with at the moment. keopeli Jun 2023 #21
+1 betsuni Jun 2023 #22
Except that Duterte is now and afterthought... Pototan Jun 2023 #37
Yes, there was. Your Presidents serve one term. And Duterte handed power to F. Marcos' progeny. keopeli Jun 2023 #51
Marcos has proven to be far different from Duterte or his own father Pototan Jun 2023 #75
I could not be happier for my Philippino friends that your politics have settled. keopeli Jun 2023 #89
It should be obvious to any decent person of normal intelligence Martin Eden Jun 2023 #24
Yes, it is pretty fucked up, but it is a minority of the US that is so DemocraticPatriot Jun 2023 #25
The minority can destroy a country though. Marius25 Jun 2023 #59
excellent point Evolve Dammit Jun 2023 #73
Iloilo: The City of Love Pototan Jun 2023 #86
The Philippines produces 1/3 of all the plastic waste in the oceans. Mosby Jun 2023 #26
But we don't swear in the guy who comes in second... Pototan Jun 2023 #34
This point is not even close to the point made by the author. LakeArenal Jun 2023 #52
I was just sharing info Mosby Jun 2023 #74
it's fucked because of the poison of Fucks News LymphocyteLover Jun 2023 #27
Anyone who watches FOX... Pototan Jun 2023 #35
Yes, but they become addicted and Fucks News supplies their drug LymphocyteLover Jun 2023 #45
These people were around before Fox existed ExWhoDoesntCare Jun 2023 #61
These are all valid points my friend FakeNoose Jun 2023 #28
The point of the OP... Pototan Jun 2023 #32
Agree-- that is clearly a huge and depressing problem LymphocyteLover Jun 2023 #46
You're preaching to the converted GenThePerservering Jun 2023 #29
Great post. Ferrets are Cool Jun 2023 #31
You forgot the former Vice President that was directly under attack by the insurrectionists, Bluethroughu Jun 2023 #33
Oh, I'm sure there is much more than I listed... Pototan Jun 2023 #36
I fully understand, but some of these people are beginning to get it. Bluethroughu Jun 2023 #38
Not really. Axelrods_Typewriter Jun 2023 #39
Maybe you should have a talk... Pototan Jun 2023 #40
A seriously good post malaise Jun 2023 #41
What Republicans do doesn't affect what I think of the U.S. and its culture. betsuni Jun 2023 #42
I'm A blue dot in red County JustAnotherGen Jun 2023 #44
My husband is from Italy JustAnotherGen Jun 2023 #43
The biggest problem with Italy is its far-right government Marius25 Jun 2023 #60
They leave the South for the North JustAnotherGen Jun 2023 #84
+1 betsuni Jun 2023 #87
what's more fucked up is we let him JuJuChen Jun 2023 #47
So spot on. Akacia Jun 2023 #48
*rump is the quintessence of Oligarchy Uncle Joe Jun 2023 #49
Give me a break! Stop with the good, old days. They were never good. Wonder Why Jun 2023 #50
Maybe the author speaks of "his" good old days. LakeArenal Jun 2023 #53
I guess he forgot about these "good old days" in Boston Wonder Why Jun 2023 #64
I didn't mention "good 'ole days" in my OP Pototan Jun 2023 #76
My point was that it never has been good old days. We have just come upon our Wonder Why Jun 2023 #77
During your lifetime, which President do you believe was worse than *rump? n/t Uncle Joe Jun 2023 #56
None. Not a single one was close. Not Bush. Not anybody. but that doesn't Wonder Why Jun 2023 #66
I just didn't get the impression Uncle Joe Jun 2023 #68
Yep world wide wally Jun 2023 #57
Sums it up orangecrush Jun 2023 #58
Have friends who are moving to Portugal. Enoki33 Jun 2023 #62
My family and I want to move to either Portugal or France too Marius25 Jun 2023 #70
Check requirements for Portugal. Maybe a Enoki33 Jun 2023 #79
Excellent rant! pandr32 Jun 2023 #63
Exactly! SouthernDem4ever Jun 2023 #65
Bookmarked!!! BigmanPigman Jun 2023 #67
The really fucked up part is you can't buy off a cop with a c-note anymore Snooper9 Jun 2023 #69
Maybe you should also compare the Enoki33 Jun 2023 #80
Excellent post. All the best in your lives. Evolve Dammit Jun 2023 #71
thanks for telling us what we already know GenThePerservering Jun 2023 #78
Sometimes it's so incremental... Pototan Jun 2023 #85
That pot has always been there. betsuni Jun 2023 #88
87%. n/t Harker Jun 2023 #81
Correct answer: oswaldactedalone Jun 2023 #82
Whatever KentuckyWoman Jun 2023 #90
I'm 70 years ole and I've fought for 50 years... Pototan Jun 2023 #91

John1956PA

(4,723 posts)
2. I saw a car with a cheerleader-parent insignia and a profane epithet against POTUS and VP.
Fri Jun 2, 2023, 08:49 PM
Jun 2023

The stying of the F-word contained silhouettes of two AR-15 rifles. The insult against our VP (rendered in small letters which could be read only up close) is not something which I care to repeat. So much for traditional family values of the parent of a high school cheerleader.

 

honest.abe

(9,238 posts)
3. If Trump wins in 2024 you will see millions of folks leaving the USA... including me.
Fri Jun 2, 2023, 08:50 PM
Jun 2023

In fact we are probably leaving before the election not so much because of Trump but we just want to get out of here. The ugly politics, the high cost of living, high cost of health care, the high cost of housing, the traffic, the stress of working, the gun culture, the violence, I could go on and on. In fact we are likely to move to the Philippines as well and may actually end up in Iloilo area where you are located. My wife is originally from the Philippines as well. Of course the Philippines isnt perfect and has many issues of its own but for us its a much better situation than here. Maybe we will see you there Pototan!

Pototan

(2,959 posts)
7. The Philippines is not above criticism...
Fri Jun 2, 2023, 08:56 PM
Jun 2023

...but they don't shoot their children in schools.

 

honest.abe

(9,238 posts)
9. I didnt mention that but my wife has made the same comment to me.
Fri Jun 2, 2023, 08:59 PM
Jun 2023

We have a young child and we are so afraid of something like that happening here. My wife said she has never heard of a school shooting in the Philippines ever in her lifetime.

choie

(6,520 posts)
30. They also don't claim to be a shining city on a hill,
Fri Jun 2, 2023, 10:28 PM
Jun 2023

the beacon of righteousness and compassion or the model of democracy on earth. Along with fascism, American exceptionalism is what is killing our democracy.

Initech

(107,219 posts)
83. Same.
Sat Jun 3, 2023, 06:32 PM
Jun 2023

Trump will take a flame thrower to what's left of the United States after that. He will enact his wildest revenge fantasies and there would be no one to stop him. That's when I enact my exit strategy.

PJMcK

(24,613 posts)
4. Excellent rant
Fri Jun 2, 2023, 08:51 PM
Jun 2023

Thank you for articulating many of my own thoughts. It’s fucked up that so many Americans are in thrall to this criminal.

Good for you for getting out. We’re thinking of Spain.

Response to Pototan (Original post)

WarGamer

(18,216 posts)
6. Never forget... Donald Trump is but a symptom of the disease.
Fri Jun 2, 2023, 08:54 PM
Jun 2023

He's the green crap you cough up at night.

But he's not the illness.

Septua

(2,948 posts)
23. Kinda' what I was thinking. As has been said...
Fri Jun 2, 2023, 09:51 PM
Jun 2023

..by other more politically astute personalities, Trump didn't create the "Crazy Caucus", he revealed it. They were always there, waiting for a character like Trump to come along and take them back to 1950 when the world was less complicated and the white skinned people comprised 90% of the US population.

I've summed up the situation numerous times with the OP's same sentiments; the Country is fucked up. But the Country is actually fine...it's that crazy caucus segment of the population that's fucked up along with a bunch of fucked up R politicians whose only agenda is to stay in office.

You can't change the minds of the voters but you can vote out the politicians...if they don't completely change the laws to the point we can't vote.

patphil

(8,660 posts)
55. Trump's a focal point; he validates their hate.
Sat Jun 3, 2023, 10:23 AM
Jun 2023

He gives them permission to express the evil they have always held in that dark lump they call a heart.
He has become their god.

Pototan

(2,959 posts)
15. I agree with you...
Fri Jun 2, 2023, 09:12 PM
Jun 2023

...there is hope in the future.

Unfortunately, I don't think there will be enough improvement in my lifetime.

NJCher

(42,291 posts)
19. it is a sick country, for sure
Fri Jun 2, 2023, 09:43 PM
Jun 2023

I've never expected much out of this country because it's economic system and values are based on greed.

I expect it to be fucked up because the operating system, so to speak, is all wrong.

 

TeamProg

(6,630 posts)
20. Thank you for posting these many points. It boils down to our media
Fri Jun 2, 2023, 09:44 PM
Jun 2023

I think. Drama sells, conflicts sell, we’ve become a nation of rubber-neckers sucking up Fox News or doom-scrolling for the next climate change debacle kind of hoping for something good but thinking that maybe that giant asteroid might just be the best thing ever for the planet.

keopeli

(3,582 posts)
21. To be fair, the Philippines has its own political issues to deal with at the moment.
Fri Jun 2, 2023, 09:46 PM
Jun 2023

I'm not being defensive at all. I admire your choice to live in the Philippines. What a wonderful people and culture! Plus, if I had the option, I would live elsewhere myself.

I'm suggesting that our current global crisis in democracies with populists, nationalists, and resurgent fascism is all related.

Trump isn't the United States' problem. Trump is the world's problem.

As I recall, political extremism from the right emerged at about the same time in both the Philippines and the US.

I can't help but suspect Putin is behind this mess the world is in right now.

Thanks for the rant! I needed that!

Pototan

(2,959 posts)
37. Except that Duterte is now and afterthought...
Fri Jun 2, 2023, 11:12 PM
Jun 2023

...he has no more influence in this country than you or me, even though his daughter is VP.

Sara is not too fond of her father, either.

By the way, there was a peaceful transfer of power after the last Presidential election in the Philippines. How did the US do?

keopeli

(3,582 posts)
51. Yes, there was. Your Presidents serve one term. And Duterte handed power to F. Marcos' progeny.
Sat Jun 3, 2023, 09:25 AM
Jun 2023

I'm not interested in comparing our authoritarians to find out who is worse. I'm describing it ALL as a global problem that many countries have.

Pototan

(2,959 posts)
75. Marcos has proven to be far different from Duterte or his own father
Sat Jun 3, 2023, 02:23 PM
Jun 2023

Raza won her most recent Supreme court case. Marcos has been very pro-American and a favorable ally to the Biden administration. Far more so than Duterte. Where I live, Panay Island and Iloilo City voted 2 to 1 against Marcos (BBM). It's considered the most progressive region of the country.

Before we visit the sins of the father upon the son, remember that RFK Jr. bears no resemblance to his father. And Ronald Reagan Jr. is a far cry from his father.

Time will tell, but this is a politically calm country. Proud and they love America, no matter who's the President.

keopeli

(3,582 posts)
89. I could not be happier for my Philippino friends that your politics have settled.
Sun Jun 4, 2023, 11:03 AM
Jun 2023

If Marcos Jr is good for you, then that's great. I know Filipinos love the US and are a wonderful and kind people. They deserve the best. Nevertheless, you did elect Duterte who was an authoritarian. We, too, rid ourselves of Trump in favor of Biden. But, we all remain vulnerable to the insurgent fascists. We must remain on guard.

Again, I really enjoyed your post about American conservatives supporting Trump. Thanks for the update on politics in the Philippines!

Martin Eden

(15,308 posts)
24. It should be obvious to any decent person of normal intelligence
Fri Jun 2, 2023, 09:55 PM
Jun 2023

... that Donald Trump is egregiously unfit, mentally and morally, to hold any public office let alone the most powerful position on the planet.

Dangerous sociopaths will always be among us. What's really fucked up is that roughly forty percent of American voters want him to be president.

It's like a mass psychosis.

 

DemocraticPatriot

(5,410 posts)
25. Yes, it is pretty fucked up, but it is a minority of the US that is so
Fri Jun 2, 2023, 10:11 PM
Jun 2023

fucked up... We just have to get as many people to vote as possible,

and then it will be not as fucked up as it was from 2017 to 2021, again....



There may be some blood, but I put my faith in law enforcement to handle the situation---
The bloodthirsty magats have, after all, been more talk than action--

and those, that tiny minority who have actually taken any violent action have only made examples of themselves.


I hope your life in the Phillipines is satisfying, safe and happy!

My cousin has married a Phillipino woman whom he brought here, and they have a beautiful daughter...
It has been his longest-lasting marriage by many years, as it turns out...

He met her online.


Mosby

(19,211 posts)
26. The Philippines produces 1/3 of all the plastic waste in the oceans.
Fri Jun 2, 2023, 10:20 PM
Jun 2023

That's seriously fucked up.

It's because of poverty and what's called the "sachet economy". Everything there comes in plastic, and most of it just gets dumped in the ocean.

Pototan

(2,959 posts)
34. But we don't swear in the guy who comes in second...
Fri Jun 2, 2023, 10:45 PM
Jun 2023

...and the Philippines doesn't shoot its kids in the classrooms. They have similar gun control laws as Massachusetts, and it's enforced nationwide.

You think climate change has anything to do with America's 125 years of industrial production?

LakeArenal

(29,949 posts)
52. This point is not even close to the point made by the author.
Sat Jun 3, 2023, 09:31 AM
Jun 2023

Not saying Philippines has no problems, that you have to dredge one up to counter his point.

Another case of “what about” ism.

Pototan

(2,959 posts)
35. Anyone who watches FOX...
Fri Jun 2, 2023, 10:48 PM
Jun 2023

...does so voluntarily. Those people choose to be brainwashed. There are easily accessible alternatives. There are no excuses for FOX viewers to be stupid. They choose stupidity.

 

ExWhoDoesntCare

(4,741 posts)
61. These people were around before Fox existed
Sat Jun 3, 2023, 11:15 AM
Jun 2023

They're the people who enacted and enforced Jim Crow. They're the people who fought desegregation tooth and nail. They're people who beat up Civil Rights protesters and lynched black people. They're the people who burned crosses in people's yards and burned down or blew up the churches of black people. They're the same people who were okay with child labor and no rights for adult workers. They're the people who hated it when women got the right to vote and even more when they got the right to have a legal abortion. They're the people who fought tooth and nail for the "right" to enslave black people. They're the same people who enslaved and wiped out most of the Native Americans.

They have always been here. They simply have more means to make their hideous views known now than they ever have before.

FakeNoose

(39,957 posts)
28. These are all valid points my friend
Fri Jun 2, 2023, 10:23 PM
Jun 2023

However I don't believe that Chump will win the Repuke Party's nomination next year. I don't know who will win, but I'm quite sure it won't be Chump.

I'm on DU almost every day and I'm really dismayed with how much "ink" we give to Chump on this website. We spend way more time talking about him than about any worthy Democrats, and to me it seems absurd.

He won't be the Repukes' candidate next year, and he has no chance of winning, even if he were. Let's spend more time focusing on things we Democrats can change and improve.

Pototan

(2,959 posts)
32. The point of the OP...
Fri Jun 2, 2023, 10:38 PM
Jun 2023

...wasn't just about Trump, but about how many Americans agree with him. Who the President is beside the point. I love Biden. It's not about the President. It's about how many of our fellow Americans agree with Trump. 10% is 30 million. 35% is a hundred fucking million. That's almost the entire population of the Philippines. WTF.

Trump could disappear tomorrow, but those millions of people remain. That's the point.

Bluethroughu

(7,215 posts)
33. You forgot the former Vice President that was directly under attack by the insurrectionists,
Fri Jun 2, 2023, 10:40 PM
Jun 2023

because the former President blamed him for not following through on stealing or changing the slate of electors, said he would support the slobfather if he ran again, until now.

Maggots.

Pototan

(2,959 posts)
36. Oh, I'm sure there is much more than I listed...
Fri Jun 2, 2023, 10:52 PM
Jun 2023

...however, it's a sunny 90-degree F Day here in Iloilo Province and I went to the pool, where I will be returning.

I am disappointed in a third of Americans. That's why I don't miss the place.

Bluethroughu

(7,215 posts)
38. I fully understand, but some of these people are beginning to get it.
Fri Jun 2, 2023, 11:22 PM
Jun 2023

And coming from the majority of Americans, we miss you and your involvement here.

I hope you and the wife are enjoying your retirement, I'm sure you deserve it!

39. Not really.
Sat Jun 3, 2023, 01:31 AM
Jun 2023

Through my life, I've believed in a dark, depressing world. I was angry, cynical, and nihilistic. Long story short, one day it came to a head. I realised I was really just self-harming, not by cutting or by hitting myself, but with my belief system. I had to do hard work on myself and choose to believe in a bright, hopeful world. To be optimistic even if I had no reason to be and laundry lists of reasons not to be. To believe in the long arc towards justice.

So much of our media, pretty much all of it, is dedicated towards showing the doom and gloom, the extreme cases, the far fringes. I live my everyday life that I've removed most of the media from and encounter very little of it.

I take stock in the Winston Churchill quote "Americans will always do the right thing, only after they have tried everything else." We've been on the ropes many times in our history, and nearly every decade there has been a truly awful event that could have very well been the end of our country. But we've always come back from the brink, held on, and went on. Even from a full-scale civil war with hundreds of thousands dead. Or from a time when there were blacklists of actors and musicians who were censored because of the opinion of a congressional committee. Or from a decade where we had two towers knocked down by jetliners in the first half and a huge recession in the second.

We're still a young country. We're going through growing pains now, moving out of "adolescence" and into adulthood. We've kicked the can down the road in the past with some problems, and other problems are new. But instead of continuing to kick the can down the road, we're beginning to tackle these problems and get things done that should have been done decades ago. That alone is cause for hope.

Pototan

(2,959 posts)
40. Maybe you should have a talk...
Sat Jun 3, 2023, 04:04 AM
Jun 2023

...with a half dozen of my MAFA cousins.

Let's just focus on the extreme cases, 65 million of them (Trump's total vote in 2020 election)

I'm not dark. As a matter of fact, I'm a pretty optimistic person. How else could you explain the confidence of a 70 year old man to move 12,000 miles away to a brand-new country, and it's like paradise here.

44% of American voters voted for Trump, and after 4 years, he's probably not lost one vote. His supporters don't sound like political supporters, they sound and act like cult members.

Listen, the smartest man who lived in the 20th century knew when his society had gone over the edge and MAGA cultists sound and act just like those same Germans did in the 1920's and 30's.

I respect your opinion, but I'm going to follow Einstein's advice.

Since I can't change my country, I've decided to change my country.

JustAnotherGen

(37,475 posts)
44. I'm A blue dot in red County
Sat Jun 3, 2023, 08:06 AM
Jun 2023

In NJ.

The magadonians - the people who VOTE for Republicans bug the shit out of me. They need to stay off my lawn.

JustAnotherGen

(37,475 posts)
43. My husband is from Italy
Sat Jun 3, 2023, 08:05 AM
Jun 2023

I was the favorite daughter in law - so my MIL gave me residency of the townhouse. Its a 450 year old tradition.

He became a new American in 2020 (dual citizenship) and asks himself "why?" every day.

Italy has its problems- but I'm not likely to get shot at the grocery store when I retire.

 

Marius25

(3,213 posts)
60. The biggest problem with Italy is its far-right government
Sat Jun 3, 2023, 11:09 AM
Jun 2023

But Italy has pretty much always been that way since they invented fascism. I've read a lot of young people leave Italy for better jobs in other parts of Europe too, which leads to brain drain.

JustAnotherGen

(37,475 posts)
84. They leave the South for the North
Sat Jun 3, 2023, 09:05 PM
Jun 2023

Then Northerners whine about migrants- but they are folks who are willing to get their hands dirty working in the South.

Italy has an over education problem. Everyone wants to be an architect, no one wants to fabricate and install kitchen cabinets. And that's the problem with Brothers of Italy . . . they don't want their kids doing skilled labor - but they are blocking the people who can fill the gap.

As long as Fed gov doesn't stick their noses in Calabria - we'll be fine. Calabria survived it the first time - they will survive it another time.

They do whatever the hell they want down South!

Akacia

(651 posts)
48. So spot on.
Sat Jun 3, 2023, 08:44 AM
Jun 2023

It floors me that this rapist Donald Trump is ever given a platform to spew his awful thoughts. He is a despicable human being and I still have trouble wrapping my mind around the fact that there are fellow citizens in the country that practically worship the ground he walks on.

Uncle Joe

(64,062 posts)
49. *rump is the quintessence of Oligarchy
Sat Jun 3, 2023, 09:09 AM
Jun 2023

He couldn't respect government any more than he could respect the people he bought.

Relatively speaking, (for him) when you can buy representation that easy, democracy is a sham.

That's why he trashed it.

Thanks for the thread Pototan



Wonder Why

(6,512 posts)
50. Give me a break! Stop with the good, old days. They were never good.
Sat Jun 3, 2023, 09:24 AM
Jun 2023

Manifest Destiny years

Civil War years

Massacre of Native American years

Return of the South and terrorism and massacre of Black Americans years

The Oligarchs of the early 20th century years

More Return of the South and terrorism and massacre of Black Americans years

Depression Years

More Return of the South and terrorism and denial of rights to vote of Black Americans years

Civil strife and Vietnam War years

One could go on and on.

The "best" countries are not perfect countries and all have their dark side. Some just hide it better. Were Sweden and Switzerland "good" countries that stayed neutral while 30-50 million or more people died?

We still have the freedom to do something about this country's problems. And we still have the freedom to leave to go to a better country if we want - and take all our money with us so we become the rich in a poorer but "better" country. And remember, as bad as we may think this country is, the number of people leaving because of "how bad things are now" is nothing compared to the people who come here because

"Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost[sic] to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

and have done so in spite of our history of being "not as good as we think we are" because those that are doing well don't see the viewpoint of those that are not.

There is NO SUCH THING as "a normal time in America" unless you consider these times to be normal. And, yes, I'm in my late 70s. Previous times were only "normal" if one could not see or would not see or would read only sanitized history. We are what we are and we need to do better but that doesn't make thee times any worse than the past nor does it justify tuning one's back because of imperfection because things will never be perfect.

LakeArenal

(29,949 posts)
53. Maybe the author speaks of "his" good old days.
Sat Jun 3, 2023, 09:43 AM
Jun 2023

I had them around 1992. While Clinton was president we had great jobs. Great income. Bought a lively house. Saving the most into my 401K.

Then 2009 hit. George W’s housing and bank bailouts. Lost my job. Almost lost the house. Lost 75% of retirement. Paying $2000/mth for Cobra insurance with $2000 deductible. Needed two hips replaced. Had to refinance the house. No real profit when we sold it.

We call those years before W my good old days.

We did not move to Costa Rica because of politics but it’s been paradise compared to US. Especially during COVID.

Pototan

(2,959 posts)
76. I didn't mention "good 'ole days" in my OP
Sat Jun 3, 2023, 02:45 PM
Jun 2023

America has always had racism and wasted young men and women in needless wars.

But Presidents and other politicians had shame. Nixon resigned, LBJ refused to run and gave up the Presidency.

In normal times most people laughed at Archie Bunker. In 2016 we elected him President and still, today, Trump gets indicted, and his poll numbers go up, at least in the Republican party. Tell me which President or Presidential candidate could have survived even one of the scandals I listed in the OP.

That's my point.

As for Boston, my father we an administrative assistant for Senator Edward W. Brooke. My father was on the side of integration and that's where I got my background in fighting for social justice and workers' rights.

Wonder Why

(6,512 posts)
77. My point was that it never has been good old days. We have just come upon our
Sat Jun 3, 2023, 03:25 PM
Jun 2023

current nightmare, different from, but not necessarily worse than our past.

Wonder Why

(6,512 posts)
66. None. Not a single one was close. Not Bush. Not anybody. but that doesn't
Sat Jun 3, 2023, 12:43 PM
Jun 2023

mean those periods were any better than our one-man-nightmare. In those days, it was

an almost-all-the-South nightmare with murders, federal troops having to stop lunatics, bombings of children, police repeatedly publicly beating up peaceful protesters even as it was shown on TV, cities and states publicly defying the courts and more.

a country divided over an unpopular war that cost 50,000+ of Americans to die needlessly in a foreign country

Americans treating veterans like dirt because they got drafted instead of being rich enough to run to Canada or join the then-safe National Guard like two of our later presidents

Segregation, by law in the South and by custom, threats and pressure in the North.

Building bigger and better bombs and having nuclear air raid drills instead of nutcase shooters

All the evils described in the OP were not one person but they all existed.

Uncle Joe

(64,062 posts)
68. I just didn't get the impression
Sat Jun 3, 2023, 01:00 PM
Jun 2023

that the OP was implying that those events didn't happen or matter.

It was just about the greatest threat to modern day American Democracy and should he or someone like him be successful, all those evils that you listed are significantly more likely to return or be exacerbated.

Enoki33

(1,605 posts)
62. Have friends who are moving to Portugal.
Sat Jun 3, 2023, 11:34 AM
Jun 2023

Their reasons are similar to those discussed here. However they do have a grim outlook for the future because of the corrosive influence of legalized bribery known as lobbying, the destructive influence of American oligarchy and the corruption of the educational system are some they mentioned. The supreme corruption of the courts was also prominent. They also singled out the propaganda of Fox and that the likelihood of American democracy becoming a farce offers favorable odds. Hope they are very wrong.

 

Marius25

(3,213 posts)
70. My family and I want to move to either Portugal or France too
Sat Jun 3, 2023, 01:14 PM
Jun 2023

Really hard to do though, and not sure I'll get approved.

Unfortunately no English speaking countries have independent means visas.

Enoki33

(1,605 posts)
79. Check requirements for Portugal. Maybe a
Sat Jun 3, 2023, 04:23 PM
Jun 2023

bank account/ investment and provable income can qualify you.

 

Snooper9

(484 posts)
69. The really fucked up part is you can't buy off a cop with a c-note anymore
Sat Jun 3, 2023, 01:08 PM
Jun 2023

Like you can in the Philippines LOL

Enoki33

(1,605 posts)
80. Maybe you should also compare the
Sat Jun 3, 2023, 04:43 PM
Jun 2023

likelihood of being shot. We lost the self given right to question other developing democratic countries in 2016. Also lost was much of our civility.

Pototan

(2,959 posts)
85. Sometimes it's so incremental...
Sun Jun 4, 2023, 02:55 AM
Jun 2023

...it's like the old adage. A frog will boil to death if you raise the temperature just a little bit over a long period of time. However, the frog figures it out in time, he can get out of that pot before he boils to death.

It's been 8 years since Trump came down that escalator and made racism, bullying, unfounded conspiracies, bigotry and intolerance acceptable to too many people in America. Look a Florida and tell me things are not getting worse.

I decided in my twilight years to jump out of the pot.

KentuckyWoman

(7,365 posts)
90. Whatever
Sun Jun 4, 2023, 11:07 AM
Jun 2023

Slinking off instead of fighting to make it better doesn't win you any points in my book.
Trash whatever you want to trash. I'll stand behind and defend your right to do so but if you think America has a corner on being a hot mess, then I can't agree with you at all.

Pototan

(2,959 posts)
91. I'm 70 years ole and I've fought for 50 years...
Tue Jun 20, 2023, 06:07 AM
Jun 2023

Last edited Tue Jun 20, 2023, 10:36 AM - Edit history (2)

and lately Americans are moving backwards.

There was a time that we used to laugh at what Archie Bunker said. Who thought so many Americans thought he was a prophet?

There was a time when we laughed at Dennis Rodman, when he said that he "loved Kim Jong Un". Who thought so many Americans would support a guy who incorporated Rodman's expertise into his foreign policy?

No place on earth is perfect, but very few other countries contend that their country is a model of "Exceptionalism" or that they are the "arsenal of Democracy" or claim they are "the shinning city on a hill".

I participated in politics in Massachusetts my whole life and now it's the most progressive state in the US. Every statewide elected official is a Democrat. Both Senators and every member of Congress is a Democrat. Both state legislative bodies have a Democratic super Majority. I've done my part for 50 years. Now it's your turn.

Good Luck.

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