For those saying there's no reason for Trump to be detained

[Marius25]

Just a reminder, Jack Texeira is being held in prison without bail for showing his friends classified documents (documents far less secret than what Trump had).

So what is the legal argument that Texeira was detained without bail, but Trump isn't?

[WarGamer]

1. Bail is intended to guarantee someone shows up for Court.

Trump, arguably is the most recognizable person on the planet... and there is ZERO reason to believe he won't show up in Court.

He misses a Court date... take him into custody and establish bail.

Bail is NOT punishment. Being held before trial is NOT punishment.

[Marius25]

2. That's not the only reason. He's a threat to the community and national security

He needs to be detained to prevent him from doing more damage.

[WarGamer]

6. Apparently the Court and the DoJ doesn't agree.

[Marius25]

8. Well, I wouldn't trust the Courts as far as I can throw them.

We know that element of this trial is going to be corrupted.

And DoJ has been treating Trump with kid gloves since day one.

[TheRealNorth]

14. I don't know if I 100% agree with your sentiment...

But I think it's fair to say that justice is not blind and that TFG is getting preferential treatment.

[brooklynite]

34. Ack to square one...

Who needs a methodically investigated tatted and prepared indictment that lays out the basis of every charge when the armchair prosecutors “knows” there was enough evidence last year?

[onenote]

84. And, I guess, you don't trust Smith either.

[Marius25]

85. Smith isn't Superman. He's a good prosecutor, but he can't stop a corrupt judicial system

[onenote]

86. Except you seem to be suggesting he's corrupt since he didn't demand Trump be held without bail

[Marius25]

87. I never suggested any such thing.

I just don't agree with Trump being treated with kid gloves, and that's exactly how he's being treated by the entire justice system and has been for years.

He's a walking threat to national security, and the judge telling him he can't talk to witnesses is stupid. Everyone knows he's not going to listen.

You or I would never be arraigned on Espionage Act charges, and then be allowed to go hold a rally at a Cuban restaurant in Miami right afterwards followed by a wine and dine fundraiser at our resorts.

The American justice system is broken and corrupt. It's worse than the healthcare system.

[onenote]

88. You and I aren't a former president.

Hate to break it to you that not every situation is the same.

Folks here have no trouble understanding that there not every situation is the same -- that's why we understand that attempts to equate the Clinton emails or the documents found at Pence or Biden's properties are bogus.

And its why attempts to equate every situation in which someone is accused of unlawfully possessing documents is not the same. For example, Sandy Berger took classified documents from the Archives, lied about, got caught, but never spent a day in custody. Or why Robert Birchum, the retired air force officer who was just sentenced to three years for unlawfully taking classified documents, wasn't held in custody during the six year period between the search warrant that uncovered his crime and his being sentenced. It appears he wasn't even remanded to custody after entering guilty plea several months earlier.

And as for whether you are or are not suggesting Smith is corrupt, you attribute the fact that Trump isn't being held without bail (something that the federal rules reserve for cases where the accused is serious flight risk or poses a threat of violence to the community) to corruption. And since Smith didn't seek to have Trump held without bail, you are, at very least implicitly suggesting he is part of that corruption.

[Marius25]

89. Being a former president should have nothing to do with it

Presidents are not kings. They are public servants. They should be treated like everyone else.

I'm not addressing the rest of your post.. The fact is, you are admitting the US has two different justice systems, and you're fine with that.

[onenote]

90. So you don't think there should be any discretion to treat different situations differently?

Everyone should get the same sentences, no matter any differences in the situation.

Bill Clinton was fined $90,000 after a federal judge found him guilty of civil contempt for intentionally giving false testimony in the sexual harassment case brought against him by Paula Jones. In some instances where someone has perjured themselves in a civil case no prosecution was brought, while in others it not only is prosecuted but the penalty includes incarceration of varying lengths and types.

Should no one be prosecuted for perjury in a civil case? Should everyone? Should everyone get exactly the same penalty? Why do statutes typically state that the penalty for various offenses is a fine "up to" or "not more than" a specified amount or a jail term of "up to" or 'not more than" a certain number of years. Should those laws be changed so that no matter what the circumstances, the same penalty applies to every violation of a particular statute?

[obamanut2012]

9. We do not have Pre-Crime in this country

I love Minority Report even though it stars Mr. CoS, but I do not want to live it, even to take Trump down.

[Marius25]

11. Again, why was Jack Texeira denied bail for the same crimes?

[obamanut2012]

16. Because he is a flight risk -- folks keep telling you that

Of course Trump is getting kid glove treatment, but releasing him ROR is not part of that at all. He is not the type of flight risk that matters. He is one of the most recognizable people in the world.

I think he should have been given some travel restrictions, but he isn't deemed a flight risk. Texeira definitely is. Reality Winner probably also was, but she cooperated quite a bit, and should have been given the chance for bail imo.

[AZSkiffyGeek]

23. Because they weren't the same crimes?

Texiera shared classified information online. Trump was charged with keeping documents, lying about them and obstructing the DOJ from recovering them. He was not charged with sharing them with the Saudis or Russians, although that is certainly a possibility, even a probability.
There IS audio of him showing something to someone - we don't know who, we don't know what, but he wasn't charged for that. Jack Smith likely knows more, and perhaps is trying to get Nauta to flip to testify regarding that, but that is NOT what this case is about.

[inthewind21]

24. Because

He's 20 something years old military living at home, was charged with retaining and TRANSMITTING defense intel, had stockpiles of guns and other weapons and was a disgruntled person POSTING DEENSE INTEL ONLINE and has a court appointed attorney. I got ALL of that from the link you provided in the the other threads you are all over.

[Darwins_Retriever]

70. He is not a former President of the US

Should Trump be treated the same, yes. Will he, no. Why, because he is a former President of the US and an announced candidate. If/When he is convicted will be be jailed? Probably not. Do I think he should, yes.

[Disaffected]

10. Exactly - he was charged under the espionage act was he not?

He could also skip the country (his passport wasn't taken nor does he have an ankle bracelet).

[inthewind21]

25. Sure

He'll go un-noticed because hardly anyone knows who he is. When he skips, will he take the SS with him?

[Disaffected]

32. Do we really know how much control the SS

Last edited Tue Jun 13, 2023, 06:23 PM - Edit history (1)

has over him? Is he watched 24/7 or are the SS agents as close by as he sees fit? Even so, the court imposes no passport or travel restrictions - can the SS override that? On what legal basis? It's not that they would be keeping him from danger, quite the opposite (danger from conviction & imprisonment).

And ISTR that Barack Obama declined SS service after a certain period of time(?).

Anyhow, that was not the gist of the comment - the more important issue is he was charged with acts of espionage and therefore is a significant risk for more of the same unless he is detained and especially denied further access to his "boxes".

[ExWhoDoesntCare]

60. FFS

If TFG tries to go to the local McDonald's, Secret Service has to contact all kinds of people to ensure safe passage from point A to point B and then back again. They are not alone in protecting him. They rely on all kinds of local, state and federal people, as necessary, to coordinate transporting the Fat Fuhrer.

How is he supposed to escape when the SS will report if he makes any attempt to go to an airport, even on the QT? They will have to coordinate the flight plan, the landing at his destination, and his transit from that airport to wherever he goes after that, too. That means contacting people about all of those moves across multiple agencies and jurisdictions--and few of them friendly to TFG. The SS must--and will--have all that info sewn up and cleared , even before they let him pack a bag. So even if he tried to escape, the people who matter can be in place to intercept him, wherever he tries to bolt.

Since you're the one who thinks he can someone "get help" from SS to escape, you're the one who has to explain how someone can plot an escape when every step of their transportation is under that much scrutiny and planning.

We know exactly when he will try to escape--when he tries to dismiss his SS detail. That's the sign he's about to bolt--and, again, the people that matter are prepared for that boneheaded move, too.

Unlike most of America, the DOJ isn't so dang stupid that they can't predict every move this moron will make.

[Disaffected]

67. FFS, you are missing the point.

Last edited Wed Jun 14, 2023, 11:28 AM - Edit history (1)

It doesn't matter whether or not the SS has to do a bunch of stuff b/f he travels anywhere. Because there are no passport or travel restrictions imposed on him by the court, he can go pretty much anywhere anyone else could go, no?. Saudi Arabia for example or, any other country that does not have an extradition treaty with the US or would not extradite him even if they did.

In the absence of passport or travel restrictions, on what legal basis could the SS or any other gov't body prevent him from doing so?

[inthewind21]

76. So

Do tell, does he have to present that passport somewhere? Or does he just bail and fly under the radar? If he flies under the radar the passport is meaningless anyway. So when he presents it, will he find the ONE person on the planet that has no clue who he is? Or will you now claim that other countries are in on the great escape?

[Disaffected]

77. You can smack your head if you like but,

I have no idea what your point is. I'll try just one more time:

Whether not he has to present a passport when he goes somewhere is irrelevant.

Whomever he presents his passport to is also irrelevant whether or not that person has "no clue" who he is.

There is no need at all for him to "fly under the radar" to travel to another country.

HE HAS NO PASSPORT OR TRAVEL RESTRICTIONS SO HE CAN GO WHERE PRETTY MUCH WHERE ANYONE ELSE CAN.

[inthewind21]

80. Of course

you don't. That's pretty clear.

[onenote]

47. How is he a present threat to the community?

And what about other cases --

Sandy Berger. Removed classified data from the National Archives in 2003. Was not held in custody after his crime was discovered and ultimately entered into a plea deal in 2005 that resulted in a fine, probation and no jail time.

Robert Birchum. Retired air force officer discovered, via a search warrant, to have taken more than 300 classified documents from their authorized secure location documents, including some top secret documents with information relating to the National Security Agency’s capabilities and methods of collection and targets’ vulnerabilities that the government argued could have caused exceptionally grave damage to the national security of the United States. Although the theft and unauthorized possession of these documents was discovered in 2017, to the best of my knowledge he was not held in custody until he was sentenced to three years in prison in June of this year (after entering a guilty plea in February ). He was given a reprimand by the Air Force in 2018.

Unless the government is prepared to argue that he still has classified material that puts the national security at risk in his possession -- and they have not made that argument yet -- he doesn't present any more of a threat to the community than Berger or Birchum.

[H2O Man]

82. Right.

Thus, the prosecutors did not request that the defendent be held. This is such an obvious answer to the OP's question thatit answers itself.

[TreasonousBastard]

3. I've been wondering why the Rosenbergs got death for less than the Slob.

[WarGamer]

7. Different charges...

[TreasonousBastard]

12. And different times.

[obamanut2012]

17. Yup, and Ethel especially shouldn't have been charged

Her fucking brother should have been instead.

[onenote]

48. Because rightly or wrongly they were convicted of a capital crime

The statutory provisions Trump has been charged with are not capital crimes.

[brooklynite]

75. The Rosenberg's committed actual espionage...

As much as people here “know” Trump has done the same, the DOJ has made not such charge and presented no such evidence.

Violation of the “Espionage Act” does not, in all cases, constitute espionage.

[CanonRay]

4. I believe Reality Winner also never got bail.

One law for thee, another for me.

[Dave says]

13. Absolutely

I don't know how anyone can think otherwise.

[obamanut2012]

15. She was deemed a flight risk

She probably was tbh, but I think she should have been given bail, even if she couldn't afford it.

Trump is not going to sneak through the wilderness into Canada and catch a boat to Siberia.

[inthewind21]

26. lol

Why not, he's completely unrecognizable. Hardly anyone has ever seen him or knows who he is.

[obamanut2012]

42. This thread is driving me crazy lol

[ExWhoDoesntCare]

61. That too

Sheesh. He can't go anywhere without people recognizing him.

Well, he wanted fame--he got it. Now he can live with the price of it.

[CanonRay]

28. No, he can get on his jet

and fly to Saudi Arabia. He can golf and run his criminal empire from there.

[obamanut2012]

41. You don't just get on a jet and leave lol

wth

He is not a flight risk at this time.

[TheRealNorth]

45. He can't????

I mean, is the Justice Department prepared to scramble the Air Force and force his jet to land back in the United States if he did try?

I mean, the fucker could just say he has a business meeting in Dubai, and just remain there.

Seriously, it isn't that hard when you own a fucking airplane.

[obamanut2012]

49. Yes, it is -- you do not just get in a jet and leave

Good lord. People on this site, and y'all are acting like we are Pro Trump.

I am done "debating" with any of you about this. You are wrong,a nd you do not get you sound JUST LIKE THE OTHER SIDE wanting no rule of law for those you are against. I am a lesbian, I hate Trump so fucking muh, bit it is literally not a THING he was released.

[TheRealNorth]

57. Then tell us what would stop him

You sit here and tell us that he could not just get on a plane and fly to another country, but fail to tell us what is actually stopping him. I am guessing that it is blind faith in norms.... the same blind faith that has repeatedly failed us in the past 8 years because we lacked imagination about what this fucker could do.

So please, tell me SPECIFICALLY what is stopping him from hopping on his plane and flying to Dubai?

[ExWhoDoesntCare]

63. Because flight plans aren't a five minute thing

Even people with private jets must file them, and it's not a five minute approval--It usually takes 2 hours to get approval to leave. And do you know who gets notification of and approves (or not) that flight plan? Gee, it's *a federal agency that undoubtedly has instructions to watch for unusual flight plan activity for him.*

As soon as that airport gets word that he's making plans to fly to Saudi Arabia or wherever, the DOJ will get a call, and relevant fed law enforcement will have plenty of time to be in place at the airport to "question" the idiot. And detain him, if necessary.

Even if he filed a flight plan for New York but bribed the pilot to take him somewhere else, guess what? The FBI has agents overseas who can be ready to report to any airport within flight range of that heap of scrap metal TFG flies in. And it won't take long for them to know exactly where he's headed. Do you have any idea how many airplane electronic boxes can tell the entire world exactly where someone is in the air, at any given time?

I do. That was my job in the military--working on those very nav boxes. That's why I know he won't go anywhere without the feds being ready to greet him wherever he lands--and that scrap heap can't make it directly to Saudi Arabia or Russia. He has to stop somewhere to refuel before getting to any of them. And none of those places will turn a blind eye to him trying to use them as a pit stop.

This is why all of the freaking out about him trying to escape is so ridiculous. Jack Smith knew he didn't need to ask for bail or the rest, because he knows Tthe DOJ can cast a wide net to catch him if he tries something stupid.

[Disaffected]

68. So, tell us then the legal basis

for the feds apprehending him, wherever and however he gets there, if there are no passport or travel restrictions imposed on him.

[inthewind21]

72. Because HE'S UNDER EFFING INDICTMENT!

Good lord.

[Disaffected]

78. Yes, WITH NO PASSPORT OR TRAVEL RESTRICTIONS!

Is there a US law that says one cannot leave the country when having been charged with a criminal offense and in the absence of court imposed passport or travel restrictions? If so, please cite it.

Good grief.

[obamanut2012]

79. Thank you -- I just had to stop explaining this stuff yesterday

Because it was obvious people do not want to listen.

[inthewind21]

81. It's way

beyond not listening.

[Disaffected]

52. Why not?

The court has not taken his passport or imposed travel restrictions. What's to stop him?

And, I don't believe the SS would have any legal basis for stopping him as well. Why would they?

[CanonRay]

54. Sorry, I just don't understand your logic.

He pays the pilot. He says fly me to Dubai. The pilot files a flight plan, fuels up and off he goes. What process stops him. What am I missing?

[TheRealNorth]

58. Its the same fucking faith/belief in norms and lack of imagination....

From the people that told us not to worry about Jan 6th.

[Disaffected]

71. Yes, faith and belief,

that Trump will be automatically somehow stopped if he tries to leave.

As far as I can tell, Trump could only be stopped by a successful appeal of the previously applied court conditions. Otherwise there is no legal basis for preventing him from leaving the US.

[ExWhoDoesntCare]

64. That he has to land somewhere

And it won't be in Dubai. His plane can't make it that far without refueling.

Worse, wherever he lands within its range, federal agents can be waiting for him when he gets there. You do realize that plenty of people will know exactly where that plane is headed--long before he gets to his destination...right?

[CanonRay]

66. So he flies to Iceland to refuel

There are no restrictions on his travel. His passport hasn't been sezed. Federal agents are powerless absent a judges order.

[obamanut2012]

5. Because he is not a flight risk

Although I think he should have had travel restrictions put on him.

It is why he didn't have a mug shot: people know who he is, so there is no reason to have a mug shot, and it is actually SOP for the Feds for celebrities. If he breaks the witness restrictions or doesn't show up, he will be brought back in and reassessed.

This is who it should work.

[TheRealNorth]

19. I would argue he possesses the means to get away....

Much more than the other cases. I think you could argue his incentive to run is not great because he would be essentially forfeiting all his U.S. property assets, which is probably the major portion of his wealth.

Now if he started selling all his high valued properties (or transferring ownership to the kids), I think that flight risk calculation changes.

[obamanut2012]

21. That has nothing to do with it (ie the means)

I think he should have had travel restrictions, but no way Trump can just leave -- he is one of the most recognizable people on Earth. It's why he didn't have to have a mugshot, either. Which is also SOP for many celebrities.

[prodigitalson]

38. and the SS detail would be a giveaway

[obamanut2012]

43. Yup, and you can't just get on a plane and just fly

Or a ship (because he wouldn't be leaving on a bimini-top fishing boat to the DR with a dufflebag and Melania).

[TheRealNorth]

46. Why couldn't he?

Are we prepared to stop him with jets or the Coast Guard if he tried to run? And would we even be able to react fast enough?

You may say stuff like he has to file a flight plan with the FAA etc. Etc etc. We'll, if that is a barrier to getting clearance to take off from a major airport, he doesn't have to file a flight plan that tells the truth.

[prodigitalson]

50. he is literally surrounded by federal agents

[TheRealNorth]

56. .. That were hand selected by him.

Last edited Tue Jun 13, 2023, 07:45 PM - Edit history (1)

Given that it appears that none of the evidence thus far presented was provided by informers from within his Secret Service detail, it is likely that they are not monitoring his every movement; and/or they turned a blind eye to all the shit he was doing with the Top Secret documents.

[inthewind21]

73. Huh

So you have ALL of the info on what has or has not happened, who has and has not been talked to? Impressive, Smith call you personally?

[Disaffected]

53. You state he is not a flight risk,

yet you still think he should have travel restrictions?

And what difference does his recognizability make to his right to travel? It's not that anyone thinks he could abscond to a friendly country without it being known. Hell, he would probably not try to keep it a secret at all - how could he continue to complain and grift if no-one knows anything more about him?

[Silent3]

69. Trump can't quietly slip away, no, but there's nothing to stop him from blatantly leaving...

...the country and not coming back.

Are you assuming that if Trump had his pilot file a flight plan to, say, Saudi Arabia, that an emergency order would be sought and granted faster than he could escape the country?

[ExWhoDoesntCare]

65. Sigh.

You can't make flight plans and take off five minutes after filing them.

Even if you somehow bribe a pilot to take you off course from flight plans, you won't be able to fly wherever you want, willy nilly, without being tracked. Well before the plane lands, agents will be on alert to report to X airport to arrest him. With each passing nautical mile, the trackers will get a better idea of where he's headed--and you do know that plane of his can't make it to Russia or Saudi Arabia without stopping to refuel...right? That means he will have to stop, and in countries that aren't friendly to him at all.

Once they have a good idea what airport will be the destination, the agents (and local law enforcement) will scramble there. The plane will have to ask for permission to land, and it takes nothing to tell them that they need to circle for a while--as in wait long enough to get agents well in place.

If they want to capture him, they can. It's that easy.

[gratuitous]

18. I know it's a discredited notion, but keep your powder dry

Yes, the prosecution could have raised holy h-e-double hockey sticks about the terms of release for the former guy. To what end? The conditions of release won't be modified, and you're inviting the enmity of the judge by getting all bent out of shape this early in the proceedings. Just pay out the rope, and see if the former guy fashions it into a noose. When the time comes for the prosecution to move for a change in the terms of release, it can be based on the former guy's own misbehavior, not on speculation (no matter how well-founded or in character) about what he might do.

Later, the motion can be, "Your honor, you admonished the defendant not to do X, Y, and Z. Well, on such-and-such a date, he did X and Z. Then two days later, he did Y, as well as conduct not specified in the release order, but which the prosecution believes is even worse than the enumerated prohibitions. We move to lock him up until trial." That's a motion grounded in the court's own ruling, and the former guy's actual failure to comply with the ruling. It also avoids the predictable caterwauling about a "political" or "weaponized" prosecution.

[obamanut2012]

20. Yup, terrific answer

[republianmushroom]

22. 2-tier justice system

No mug shot
No cuffs
No bail

[inthewind21]

27. Nope

It's not. He's not the first. And he won't be the last.

[republianmushroom]

29. I disagree with you.

[Kaleva]

31. See post #30

[republianmushroom]

33. Still disagree with you

I also don't agree with our govt. on everything.

[obamanut2012]

40. You are factual wrong

[Just_Vote_Dem]

55. That's a healthy attitude

It's good to think for yourself at times.

[inthewind21]

74. Disagree

all you want, You're still wrong.

[republianmushroom]

91. DOJ's 'fantastic' red carpet: The Trump case vs. the Reality Winner case - All In - MSNBC

https://www.democraticunderground.com/1017836953

&t=17s

[obamanut2012]

39. It really is not unusual for the Feds

Piper Kerman, for example, did have a mug shot because no one knew who she was, but was released and allowed to turn herself in later at Danbury. She served 13 months for smuggling 50K of drugs for a lover. The ONLY way anyone knows her name is because she wrote a book called "Orange is the New Black," and Taylor Schilling played "her" as Piper Chapman on teh TV series.

My Felon Uncle was arrested on two felony counts of drug smuggling, and he had priors. His bail was $450, and he was released ROR home. He turned himself in a month later after he took care of his affairs. He did have to turn in his passport. This was about 11 years ago.

[onenote]

51. It seems that those complaining that his release without bail, mug shot and handcuffs

reflect a two-tier justice system don't know that much about the justice system or the fact that every criminal defendant is not the same as every other criminal defendant.

To refer back to an example in another post: Twenty-one year old Jack Texeira, who no-one would recognize if he was sitting next to them and who had a stockpile of weapons when he was arrested and minimal ties to the community is not the same flight risk as Donald Trump.

False equivalencies abound in some of these posts.

Snoop Dog was given $1 million bail when he was charged with murder and he was able to post it. There are plenty of people who are charged with murder who couldn't meet $1 million bail. Should Snoop's bail been set so high that he couldn't meet it in order to 'level the playing field'? Or should bail for others charged with murder always be set low enough for them to meet or not required at all if they're indigent? What would be a one-size fits all solution when in fact not everyone is "the same size" in terms of the factors that go into setting bail, keeping in mind that bail is not punishment but a way of ensuring the accused doesn't run.

[Kaleva]

30. Many others were not denied bail

"Teixeira's lawyers noted in court papers this week there have been many Espionage Act cases in which courts have approved release or the government did not seek to keep the person behind bars pretrial."

https://www.cbsnews.com/boston/news/jack-teixeira-pentagon-leak-suspect-federal-court-worcester-massachusetts-judge-decision/

[prodigitalson]

36. Jack Texeira doesn't have a team of cops going everywhere he goes

[orthoclad]

37. Money, money, money, money,

MONEY!
as the song said

[onenote]

44. Let's see:

Jack Texeira is a 21 year old who would lose little by running and who 99.9% of the population wouldn't recognize if he was standing six inches from them.
He was found with a stockpile of weapons, including handguns, shotguns, bolt-action rifles, an AK-style rifle with high-capacity magazine, a gas mask, and other weapons.
The prosecution argued, and the court agreed, he represented a serious flight risk.


Donald Trump is a 77 (as of tomorrow) year old former president of the US with massive assets he would put at risk if he ran and who is one of the most widely recognized persons on the planet.
He wasn't found with a stockpile of weapons.
Donald Trump has Secret Service watching him.
The prosecution didn't argue he is a serious flight risk.


Other than that they're exactly the same (sarcasm).

[TheRealNorth]

59. I think there is a distinction between the means to run and the incentive to run

I agree that (at this point), TFG has no incentive to run. He's not being put in jail and has a lot of potential "outs" that he has yet to exhaust. But if the question is only, "Does he have the means to run," the answer is absolutely.

[Mr.Bill]

62. What I worry about is he still

has the means to continue commiting the same crime. I don't think we have recovered all the documents.

[Disaffected]

83. Yes, that's why (for both reasons) he should be

incarcerated. Or maybe have someone attached to him 24/7 to see he doesn't. Gak, that would be a tough-shit (shit-tough?) assignment.