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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsCan I please explain "innocent until proven guilty" for a President?
"Innocent until proven guilty, beyond a reasonable doubt" is a standard we use only for incarceration. It is not the standard one uses for electing a President.
Let me make a slight analogy. I represented workers who occasionally were disciplined for workplace violations. I was a union Business Agent. Often, the disciplined worker would say, "they can't prove (fill in the blank)", thinking that the alleged infraction had to be proved beyond a reasonable doubt. I explained that the infraction only had to reach a 51% threshold, "was it more likely than not to have occurred". The employer could use past job performance (if it was bad) and I could use past job performance (if it was favorable).
I mention this because supporters of President Trump seem to think if he can "beat the rap", he's qualified for President. I contend Trump is already disqualified under the workplace standard. After all, he wants to be re-instated to his previous position.
Trump is not accused by rumor. He is accused of violating the espionage act by "willful retention" of sensitive national security information, refusing to return it to the government (the employer) when requested and then demanded to do so. He also obstructed the investigation. Trump was already found to have passed that "51%" threshold (probable cause) by a grand jury of his peers, after they carefully reviewed the information. This is a serious violation of his employment responsibilities.
In addition, in a civil case, which uses at least the 51% threshold for "more likely than not, to have occurred" Trump was found responsible in committing sexual abuse (sexual assault, in actuality) unanimously by a jury of his peers. Who would hire, or in this case, rehire, an employee found guilty of such a charge.
Put aside his racist and misogynistic public posts, both past and recent, and no board of Directors, HR supervisor, or manager at any level would dare recommend such a person to be employed in any position in a company, never mind the CEO. Please take note, that I'm not talking about some rumor, innuendo or anonymous allegations on some internet blog. But a true deliberation by an impartial panel, after looking at all the facts, in two very serious cases.
I fully stand by the "innocent until proven guilty" and "reasonable doubt" standards for incarceration. But the standard for electing a President of the United States has to be much more decerning.
onenote
(46,143 posts)is majority of the house and 2/3 of the senate
Pototan
(3,134 posts)As a voter, I can use any criterion I want.
And using a reasonable workplace standard, Trump is disqualified for my vote.
What you describe is removal from office. We already voted him out, now he wants back in (rehired).
When I say disqualified, I mean from my vote. The electorate are the final arbiters of Trump's reinstatement.
onenote
(46,143 posts)Including voting for a nominee who is a convicted felon
Pototan
(3,134 posts)If anyone with Trump's record applied for a job with the company you work for, he would not be hired.
How could you consider such a person for President?
OJ Simpson was found "not guilty" for murder. Would you object if your child's high school hired him to chaperon a week-end field trip for the students?
LudwigPastorius
(14,728 posts)they can be the physical embodiment of Satan himself as far as the Constitution is concerned.
...and I know a shitload of Republicans who would vote for the old Angel of the Abyss.
Pototan
(3,134 posts)...I've said on this blog many times. The arguments I make are to be used to try to convince the 8% of independents who are reasonable.
that's who controls the election. I know I can't convince "Squeaky Frome" that Charles Manson's not the guy for her. Or the residents of Jonestown not to follow Jim Jones. Telling the Branch Davidians that David Korish is full of shit is of no use.
But reasonable people should not flock to these cult figures. My case is not to be made to MAGA cultists, but to the 8% to 10% that make the difference in an election.
onenote
(46,143 posts)Pototan
(3,134 posts)onenote
(46,143 posts)And when it comes to Trump, I think the number of voters deciding between Trump and Biden is smaller than the number of people deciding whether to vote for Biden or not vote at all. So spending a large effort trying to convince them not to vote for Trump is likely to be less effective than trying to convince the undecided voters why they should vote for Biden.
Pototan
(3,134 posts)...as a matter of fact, our base vote was down from 2018.
The difference was persuadable Republicans and Independents who were pre-choice, pro-democracy and anti-Trump.
I think the opposite as you do. If I have to convince young voters, gays, women and minorities to come out and vote against Trump and in their own best interest, I find that a waste of time. If they don't get it by now, they never will.
Igel
(37,535 posts)"Innocent until proven guilty" is only an optional part of the standard, as viewed from outside the voting booth.
"At least 5 foot, 11 inches" is no more required a priori than "innocent until proven guilty" or "if accused, then LOCK HIM UP!"
What a voter thinks in the voting booth varies. "He's not white and blue eyed" in that case can be every bit as essential as "if I vote for him I'm voting for the first ______ and I'm effing making history!" or "no, I think I need to protect democracy from the fascists" or "Blood and soil!" or whatever else passes through the voter's grey matter.
The only relevant standards are pretty bloodless. Any other purported standard is pretty irrelevant, and actually not necessarily all that pretty.
Pototan
(3,134 posts)for a President to earn your vote.
That's the point. I know the constitution. There is no need to explain it to me. You can hire anyone as an employee if you're a manger of a company, but what standard do you apply in hiring?
One of the reasons I left the USA to reside in a foreign country is because 100 million people (75 million voters) think electing Trump is a good idea. I get it. I can't live among that many racists. The Philippines is not perfect, but they don't shoot their children in school, and I haven't encountered any racism or racist comment in two years here. In America, I never went a day without hearing a racist comment. I'm inter-racially married (Filipina). I get it. I know the constitution allows Trump to run; and OJ and that hateful shooter who was just convicted in Pittsburgh (until he's executed). But, as a voter, I may find their legal problems disqualifying for my vote (I still have US citizenship, a legal residence and vote by absentee ballot. I still pay taxes in the US. "No Taxation Without Representation"
.
Pototan
(3,134 posts)The constitution uses the word "eligible", not the word "qualified"
No Person except a natural born Citizen, or a Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the Office of President; neither shall any Person be eligible to that Office who shall not have attained to the Age of thirty five Years, and been fourteen Years a Resident within the United States.
So, to continue my workplace analogy, let's say an IT job becomes vacant and advertised. The requirements to become eligible are a bachelor's degree in computer science and 3 years' experience in a similar position. An applicant fits those requirements. After a background check on this eligible application, it comes to light that he has been indicted on 31 counts of espionage and found responsible and fined $5 million in a sexual abuse (assault) case.
He is still eligible, but the person (or people) who decide on the hiring, might think he's not qualified.
You, as a voter, decide whether or not Trump is qualified. I believe there is enough credible evidence that every voter who is not part of the Trump cult will determine he is not qualified when his candidacy is explained in these simple terms.
I hope you now understand my point.
Alice Kramden
(2,951 posts)Your points are very good - thanks for posting
Pototan
(3,134 posts)There are quite a bit of recs for my OP, but most of the comments are negative.
I've always found that in politics, especially union politics, that the supporters are numerous and quiet, but the detractors are fewer and loud.
Alice Kramden
(2,951 posts)"workplace standard" logic with a couple of my benighted older relatives. Not that I can stand to talk to them that much anymore, but we're not NOT talking.
Timewas
(2,739 posts)You are using a "normal" standard, this does not apply when referring to and election and especially an election involving t-rump and todays version of "republican".
Pototan
(3,134 posts)...to persuadables. Not MAGAt Cultists.
Just as Biden did in 2022 on Democracy. That argument didn't convince one cultist, but it had a major impact on the 10% of independent voters who made the difference in holding the Senate and preventing a "red wave".
carpetbagger
(5,484 posts)The goal of propaganda is to leave people blanking out on the true fact rather than convincing them otherwise. So presidential elections in the entire Atwater era have left the electorate with a counter smear that blurs the lines.
I've always believed that the one critical element in winning and holding the presidency for Democrats has been whether we choose a likable candidate. Dolly Parton, Tom Hanks, Dave Gohl, Jon Bon Jovi.
Pototan
(3,134 posts)...should be repeated by every Democrat, over and over again.
We, as Democrats, are almost always correct on the issues. But we suck at messaging.
malaise
(296,118 posts)Rec
H2O Man
(79,056 posts)the context of pre-trial and trial up until the jury convicts. It has nothing to do with incarceration.
Pototan
(3,134 posts)...but it does not change the underlying point of the OP.
Far be it of me to argue with a legend of this site.
Thank you for your reply.
H2O Man
(79,056 posts)more inresponse to the defendent's cult members and ass-kissing republicans that blurt it out like sheep. I always refer them to prosecutor Vincent Bugliosi's comments on how in the court of public opinion, there is no "innocent until proven guilty." I saw a film clip of a cowardly punk who executed his three little boys the other day ...... even though he confessed to police once in custody, within the court system, he is still "innocent" until the judge accepts his guilty plea. But we know that he is guilty as sin.
To borrow a phrase from John Lennon, I might be "a legend in my own lunch-time"!
Raftergirl
(1,856 posts)I am under no obligation to follow the standard of innocent until proven guilty, or guilt beyond a reasonable doubt. No one who is not sitting on a jury in any case has that obligation.