Life-saving equipment for Titanic sub search caught in red tape, Explorers Club says

[Effete Snob]

https://www.nationalgeographic.com/science/article/titan-submersible-rescue-delay-explorers-club

Efforts by the Explorers Club to send potentially life-saving technology to locate and retrieve the missing Titan submersible have been delayed by the U.S. Coast Guard since Monday, according to exclusive information provided to National Geographic.

----------

There must be a Wheel of Fortune apparatus where they get to pick:

- "Red Tape"

- "Job-Killing Regulations"

- "Nanny State Socialist Rules"

...in an effort to attempt to blame government from what is a failure entirely created by the failure to heed that "red tape" in the first place, and to structure their business to be beyond the reach of that red tape.

This is, of course, ignoring the fact that if they had all the remote robots in the world, they would not have the first clue where to send them in order to search for the submersible.

For all we know, the submersible is bobbing on the surface of the water somewhere, with the occupants sealed in from the outside. But the attempt to portray this as an inadequate government rescue is simply desperate.

They don't care if anyone gets killed in the course of trying to go after this foolhardy outfit's victims. They are, like all spoiled rich brats, simply going to throw a tantrum at anyone other than those who are to blame.

[EYESORE 9001]

1. Looks like there shoulda been MORE 'red tape'

in the form of safety regulations that may have prevented this accident in the first place.

[RKP5637]

4. Absolutely! K&R!!! n/t

[MarineCombatEngineer]

2. Hate to say this,

but this rescue operation is now, almost certainly, a recovery operation, the O2 probably ran out sometime last night as despair and panic set in if they even survived whatever caused the complete loss of comms.

[LonePirate]

12. Yes. People need to adjust their terminology as we're in a different phase now and likely have been.

[Ocelot II]

35. Or else the vessel's structure failed suddenly under the pressure of the water

and there never was a possibility of rescue.

[MarineCombatEngineer]

36. Yep,

and that's why I said if they even survived what caused the sudden loss of comms.

IMHO, they were dead as of Sunday.

[Hugin]

3. It is the other edge of the big gubberment sword.

A government that doesn’t have the resources to feed grade schoolers doesn’t have the resources to rescue five people in an emergency.

[WhiteTara]

5. self-imposed emergency

[XanaDUer2]

6. This nt

[getagrip_already]

10. That's a bs attack, imho.....

The incident occurred roughly 900 miles from the us shores. It is literally a spec in the middle of nowhere. The seas out there are not kind, even to very large ships.

The us coast guard is once again risking their lives attempting to rescue dilatonts who had more money than brains.

The last thing anyone needs is a bunch of joy riding cowboys running amok, putting themselves at risk, and potentially needing rescue themselves.

I'm sorry, but I am offended by a false relationship between rescuers and politicians.

[Hugin]

16. I believe that you have misunderstood my thought.

You can’t argue that it isn’t politicians who determine the number of rescuers. Which is my point.

[yardwork]

18. I read your post and the one you're replying to as saying the same thing.

Basically, everybody in this thread seems to have the same take. This company didn't believe in safety, didn't want government oversight, and now appears to be blaming the rescuers.

[RAB910]

7. These people might have been alive if there had been some "red tape" ensuring safety

[Buns_of_Fire]

8. Rich entitled jerks looking to blame everyone and everything

for their own bad judgment.

Soon they'll blaming big, bad government for the whiplash they're suffering between "You aren't the boss of me!" and "Why didn't you stop me from doing something monumentally stupid?"

[Baitball Blogger]

9. In this case, maybe an AI would have helped, because the humans were overpowered

by greed that subverted their common sense.

[Maru Kitteh]

27. At this point I'm thinking we should hand AI over to the orcas and

accept our collective fate.

[Deep State Witch]

11. There's an actual "Explorer's Club"?

Sounds like something out of the Victorian Era.

[TxGuitar]

13. or off the back of a kids' cereal box! nt

[Ilsa]

26. I'm awaiting my secret decoder watch. nt ;-)

[obamanut2012]

37. It literally is

A friend of my great uncle's was a member. British guy he met during WWII in someplace like Burma. My great uncle was somehow attached to the OSS, but that's all we ever really knew.

[Taylor Picker]

65. Josh Gates is a member & had a Discovery Channel show, "Tales from the Explorers Club" last year

Hamish Harding, who is on the missing sub, is a member of the club's board of trustees.

Josh Gates has apparently been on the missing sub himself and said it did not perform well.

[Igel]

81. Incorporated 1905, per their website.

So a few years post-Victoria.

Officers at https://www.explorers.org/about/club-officials/ .

Current president is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Garriott .

[Faux pas]

14. ...

They're rich enough not to pay taxes, but expect tax payer's money to bail them out????? FUCK THAT SHIT.

[MarineCombatEngineer]

21. You do realize that the paying passengers aren't US citizens?

[Faux pas]

76. I do

I've read and heard that the submersible company was asking for help from our government.

[onethatcares]

24. my thoughts eggzachery

the History Channel has a Titanic special on about every 90 days. Crack a bottle of whatever you're drinking and use the bathroom whenever you want. No rescue needed.

I'm old enough to remember the Thresher and the time and solemnity afforded those men but that was before we used the terms "billionaires on an expedition"

[Faux pas]

77. ...

I like the term billionaires folly myself.

[XanaDUer2]

15. Are there any Americans onboard? Nt

[obamanut2012]

39. No

UK and French.

[XanaDUer2]

41. Ah

Well, they're probably deceased. I hope they didn't suffer, but probably did unless it imploded. Nightmare stuff

[treestar]

61. The CEO is American

though he's not a passenger. Otherwise, why are we as a country responsible at all? LOL these people. What nerve.

[sarisataka]

67. He is on board

So will share the fate of his paying passengers.

[treestar]

71. only too true, and given his

bemoaning the nanny state regulations he tried his best to avoid, it's a chance he decided to take and so his fate was his own choice.

He's quoted as saying something like, if you want total safety, don't get out of bed in the morning.

[yardwork]

17. Blaming the government they didn't want interfering in the first place.

I read that they launch from international waters precisely because they wanted to be outside Coast Guard oversight. Now it's the Coast Guard's fault that they aren't fixing this.

Unbelievable.

[getagrip_already]

19. And a government that has no real responsibility to assist....

None of the vessels are us flagged. None of the tourists are us citizens.

The rescue zone is 900 miles from us shores.

So it is rich indeed to blame the uscg for failing to bring in unlimited resources for what has been a recovery operation from the start.

Remember that flight that went down off new Zealand? It was a frigging jumbo jet with transponders and underwater locators. They never found it. How the hell were they going to find something the size of a pickup truck made of carbon fiber at 4000 meters?

[yardwork]

20. ...which is probably way smaller than that at this point, if it imploded.

And I hope it imploded, so that the passengers never knew it was happening.

[Hugin]

25. That's my hope for them as well.

Every other outcome at this point is unconscionable.

[Hugin]

22. Yep. n/t

[sboatcar]

23. That's really the risk you take when you do something so niche like this

There's just not that many resources available at all to rescue people from so deep. They all knew what they signed up for, and the rescue is best effort, but by no means likely. If you don't want the red tape, its probably best to follow all the rules and regulations. Given the high profile of the victims, I imagine the company will be sued out of existence pretty much immediately, if they don't close up shop first.

[Buns_of_Fire]

30. And especially when you have a dipshit CEO who doesn't

really think that safety is all that important.

OceanGate CEO Stockton Rush, whose Titan submersible took tourists down to see the seafloor wreck of the RMS Titanic, once told a reporter that "at some point, safety is just pure waste."

Now that sub — with Rush and four other people reportedly on board — is missing during an expedition to the Titanic wreckage.

In a November 2022 episode of CBS journalist David Pogue's "Unsung Science" podcast, Rush discussed the Titan sub's mechanics and build.

He said there was a "limit" to safety, telling Pogue: "You know, at some point, safety is just pure waste. I mean, if you just want to be safe, don't get out of bed, don't get in your car, don't do anything. At some point, you're going to take some risk, and it really is a risk-reward question."

https://www.insider.com/missing-titanic-sub-ceo-told-reporter-safety-pure-waste-2023-6

[NowISeetheLight]

33. Reward

Guess we're seeing that "reward" he was talking about

[Buns_of_Fire]

42. Even if the dive had gone without a hitch,

I still don't understand what the "reward" would be. Risk my life just to see the Titanic in person? Sorry, that "risk/reward" equation seems a little lopsided.

I understand that some have a higher tolerance for risk than I do, but this just strikes me as being off the scale.

[malaise]

47. We will never understand the bragging rights of

the super wealthy.

[NowISeetheLight]

59. Yachts

Agreed. Just look at the megayacht race. Some of them are like small cruise ships in size. One currently under construction is over 728 feet long. It has apartments, so probably multiple owners. For $600m + it better.

https://yachtbible.com/somnio-yacht/

I compare that to the Navy ship I ended my career on. It was 522 feet.

These megayachts are one of the biggest bragging rights thongs for the super-rich. The only one I've ever liked was Paul Allen's Octopus. It was set up for research and he actually let scientists take it for expeditions. It had an ROV and submarine. Sure it was a rich guys toy, but also was used for research, went on expeditions, rescued people, recovered the bell from the HMS Hood wreck and found the Japanese Battleship Mushashi, among other accolades. Cool stuff. After Allen died some pharmaceutical rich guy bought it. I haven't heard about it since so it's probably not being used for science anymore. What a waste

[sboatcar]

58. From the video I saw though, the toilet is right next to the window

So you can see the titanic while you're doing your business.

[allegorical oracle]

62. Some guy who's been on the Titan said there was no bathroom..."we used bottles." nt

[snowybirdie]

28. And Ill have a

moment of silence for the 300+ souls who perished in the Mediterranean Sea when a ferry boat capsized within the last few days. Bless them!

[MarineCombatEngineer]

29. We can do both,

silence for those 300+ and silence for the 5 souls on board that doomed submersible.

[snowybirdie]

31. Silence for the innocents

but a sad shake of my head for five millionaires who wasted so much money on a vanity trip. Sad for their families for sure, but all this media and money and resources spent to rescue is ridiculous.

[MarineCombatEngineer]

34. +100. nt

[obamanut2012]

40. Feel bad for the 19-year-old kid

That's it.

[we can do it]

64. He's an adult.

[Silent Type]

32. I'll blame the submersible company and "explorers," but I wouldn't totally discount

possibility of some "turf" protection by Coast Guard, or others, during the rescue.

[bluesbassman]

45. It's not "turf protection", it's procedure.

The USCG, just like every branch of the military, has procedures in place for virtually every scenario. This ain’t their first underwater rodeo. Now one may not like the procedure, but that’s too bad. Those procedures are in place to 1) achieve the mission, and 2) ensure additional lives are not put at greater risk.

It’s offensive that you think it’s a turf war.

[Silent Type]

50. Sorry, I've worked around "procedure" often. And sometimes, "procedure" ain't the best/right way.

I have no idea whether that is the case here, nor do you, but I don't discount that it might have happened.

[bluesbassman]

55. You ever serve in the military?

I have, and my son is currently active duty Navy.

Your thinking is faulty. I’ll leave it at that. Good day to you.

[Silent Type]

56. Military is a great place to practice following blind/flawed procedure. Good luck to your son.

[sarisataka]

68. So no,

You haven't been in the military...

[Silent Type]

72. Like 93+% of population. But I did work for government. Great job, except for flawed "procedures."

Not really a "yes, sir" kinda guy when the procedure(s) is wrong.

[bluesbassman]

85. I see, so you have no military experience and worked in an office for "the government".

Now, when actual lives are at risk you feel qualified to attack the USCG with an accusation that they engaged in a "turf war" because you saw some office politics action.

What you might think is silly bureaucratic red tape, are actual procedures and rules put in place to make sure that the mission doesn't fail like the diving company's did. Their lack of following "red tape" appears to have been a rather significant failure.

But you you keep bad mouthing the USCG, it's sailors, and the military in general. They'll still protect and rescue you when the need arises.

[Silent Type]

86. Ah, a good "yes" man. Didn't badmouth CG, my preferred branch of military actually because they

do a lot at home, that other branches don't.

If the National Geographic thinks "red tape" might have been involved, I see no reason to discount that. Thankfully, the French robot got deployed, and now we pretty much know what happened.

[haele]

49. If there was enough risk they might have needed recovery equipment-

Why didn't they carry the search and recovery drones and cables to effect a recovery of necessary on the launch ship?
Cameron had built drones to explore Titanic decades ago, so it's not "new" technology;.a couple base model drones on cables could be fitted with external grips to attach to the mini-sub and lift it back to the launch for only a million more or so.

Regulations - "Red, Tape" - for government projects and missions always require backup or emergency planning as part of risk evaluation.
If a commercial company decides that it's not cost effective to evaluate and mitigate risks, it's not the Coast Guard's fault they follow their own safety measures before they risk ships and personnel bailing put some tech weenie's pet "billionaire role play" business failure.

Don't get me wrong, I feel for the passengers and crew of the Titan. RIP. I have long had nightmares of underwater entrapment.
But this situation is solely the fault of a selfish businessman cutting corners for profit and ignoring common sense risk evaluation and safety measures.

Haele

[Ocelot II]

38. Why the hell didn't the thing have an EPIRB?

That's an Emergency Position Indicating Radio Beacon, like an ELT for boats. Almost all boats and ships of any significant size have them, especially ocean-going vessels; it's a basic safety device that when activated transmits a distress signal to the Cospas-Sarsat Satellite System, which identifies your location for SAR personnel. You'd think they would at least have one of those; they aren't even especially expensive.

[obamanut2012]

43. You could toss a damned air tag in it and it would be something

It has been lost before, and still no beacon. It is just.... Jesus.

I carry one when we go hiking, mountain biking, kayaking etc. And, I don't just mean my cell, I mean an actual personal locator beacon.

[sl8]

46. EPIRBs are for surface vessels.

They're released and activated automatically when the vessel is submerged (sinking). That wouldn't work very well for vessels designed to submerge.

There is a version for submarines called SEPIRB, but I'm not sure how they're activated or their maximum operating depth.

[Ocelot II]

48. Some EPIRBs are activated if they get wet. I would assume that the submarine version

would especially do that. My completely uneducated guess is that the Titan's structure failed under the pressure of the water at or approaching the Titanic's location, and that would activate the beacon automatically. I don't know how far the signal would carry through deep water, though.

[sl8]

54. The ones I'm familar with are designed to float free of the ship when it sinks.

So radio range isn't diminished by the depth of the ship.

But that's for the surface vessel version, perhaps the submarine version could be adapted to the submersible, although the pressures encountered by submersibles can be far, far greater than that encountered by submarines.

On edit:
Blurb about SEPIRB:

https://www.navysbir.com/10_1/67.htm

Apparently they're designed to float free when released.

[Ocelot II]

57. If the structure failed the beacon might float to the surface.

I suppose the efficacy of a beacon would depend on the nature of the failure, but it seems to me that they should have had one anyhow. You can get one on Amazon for $500. Heck, if I were going on that trip (which I wouldn't, not on a bet), I'd have brought my own, being a billionaire and all.

[Effete Snob]

66. .

In saltwater, the radio signal might carry a few inches.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communication_with_submarines

Because radio waves do not travel well through good electrical conductors like salt water, submerged submarines are cut off from radio communication with their command authorities at ordinary radio frequencies.

[Ocelot II]

79. That's why EPIRBs float.

[Effete Snob]

82. Then I don't see the point

They are not designed to survive at a depth of 2 miles where the pressure is 400 atmospheres. This would have to be a one-off design. An ordinary EPIRB is designed to release automatically in a couple of feet of water, because it is attached to something that is not supposed to go underwater in the first place.

So, this specially designed radio beacon is attached to the exterior but is released how? Manually, through some kind of feed-through to the outside? Or automatically, under detection of some sort of condition again involving the operation of a mechanical release mechanism to let it go, and hoping that this system does not fail with the vessel systems generally.

Then, once released, it is hyrdrodynamically designed to go straight up through the entire pressure gradient, and does not tumble or have any surfaces that deflect it from a straight vertical path. Because, again, at a depth of two miles, this thing is not going to indicate the location of the vessel when it reaches the surface.

Then, once it reaches the surface, it does not drift with currents or winds, but remains for many hours directly over the vessel location.

Is that the general idea, or am I missing something?

[bluesbassman]

52. I heard a past passenger (and current investor) the company..,

Say last night that the craft had several layers of redundancy in the ballast dropping system that allows the ship to achieve positive buoyancy in order to surface. One of the components he mentioned was a “necklace” that I assume connected them all and would activate in an emergency dropping the lead ballast and force the craft to surface.

Just my opinion, but if that system didn’t deploy, it means they either imploded or had a total systems failure. Hard to square that “only” their life saving systems would selectively fail all down the line, but leave them alive.

[Effete Snob]

69. It may have worked

They could be bobbing around on the surface somewhere, bolted in airtight from the outside.

Getting to the surface is one thing. There's no way to open it from the inside. So, again, one is looking for a very small object in a very large ocean.

[bluesbassman]

75. That's a good point.

How screwed up would that be, to make it two miles up to the surface only to suffocate because they have no way to open it from the inside. I don’t know if that’s an industry standard design feature, but if it is I’d really like to know the reason why you’d intentionally build craft that traps the occupants with a limited air supply.

[calimary]

84. Good point. That's just one of many aspects of this misadventure

that’s bothered me.

But the unapologetic landlubber in me would be bothered about it anyway.

[malaise]

44. You nailed it

Rec

[JI7]

51. Does it require sending people down there ?

After everything that has happenend they are making the right decision if it means sending people down.

[Ocelot II]

53. I think it's too deep for divers - it would have to be another submersible.

[treestar]

60. They are trying to say that more government

means red tape which means delay.

It's out of US waters, right, so that means they can go in anyway. So long as they are properly compensated, they can help (only those who can afford it can get their help).

Libertarian paradise.

[Effete Snob]

73. Yes, this calls for a market-based solution

If there is enough demand, the invisible hand of the market will supply a rescue.

[we can do it]

63. Fuck these libertarian assholes. I have zero sympathy and not sorry.

[ZonkerHarris]

70. I think keeping more people from getting killed Here is the priority.

[Johnny2X2X]

74. Debris field

Presser coming soon, the area they were looking in has debris. Seems clear this is over and the sub was likely crushed.

[sarisataka]

80. Completely unsurprising

That there is a debris field. It is the site a 46,000 ton ship sank.

Now if the debris is small and several miles separate from Titanic it may be meaningful.

I know the group that recently published the gigh resolution scans of the wreck were trying to get on site to assist. I believe they would use their equipment to try to find something different than what they had previously scanned- suspecting it may be the submersible.

[Effete Snob]

83. They were on their way to see a debris field, yes.

That's kind of the point of going there. To see the debris.

[Recycle_Guru]

78. agreed. libertarians are the worst

I am my own self made person. Yes, I may conduct my business using roads built with taxes, breathe clean air brought about by regulation of industry amd fly from place to place reasonably certain of getting to my destination safely, but don't you dare touch my property.