Plan to slice New York pizza oven emissions by 75% causes backlash

[Wicked Blue]

By Max Matza
BBC News

A proposal to slice emissions from coal and wood-burning pizza ovens in New York City by 75% has left a bad taste in the mouths of some locals.

A rule change proposed on Friday would require pizzerias to evaluate whether they can install emissions control devices for their kitchens stoves.
...

On Monday, a man tossed slices of pizza at New York City Hall in protest.

"Give us pizza or give us death," shouted conservative activist Scott LoBaido, in a reference to an anti-British Revolutionary War slogan.

[BlueTsunami2018]

1. Yeah, that's not going to fly.

You don’t mess with New York pizza.

[marble falls]

2. Of all the sources of pollution in NYC to go after.

[Disaffected]

3. Why would you need coal to cook a pizza?

I suppose wood smoke might add some flavour but coal??

Mmmm, sulphur and coal tar...

[Eugene]

14. Traditional New York and New Haven-style pizzas use coal fired ovens.

The slightly smoky taste is one of the features along with better crispness.

[Disaffected]

21. Yeah, I get wood fire smokey taste but

coal? Maybe the taste is better than the smell of burning coal(?).

[Eugene]

32. Coal was a dominant energy source for cooking and heating

well into the mid-20th century. Coal was abundant and economical, especially around 1905 when the first pizzeria opened.

Coal heats the oven faster than natural gas and was not as scarce as wood at the time. Most of the smoke goes up the chimney, not into the oven. The big smoke problem is the outside environment.

[Celerity]

47. it is hard anthracite coal

https://blog.slicelife.com/coal-fired-pizza-oven/

Ovens use high-quality hard anthracite coal, which emits far less of the bad stuff than soft bituminous coal – with far less ash and sulfur, it burns hotter and cleaner than all the rest. Also, pizzerias tend to use high-tech air filters to further cut down on pollutants.

[Zeitghost]

15. Tempreature

Coal fired pizza ovens are hotter and produce awesome pizzas. My favorite place (and the best pizza place in the world), Tony's in San Fransisco uses gas, wood and coal fired ovens to produce their various pies. The menu lists the type and temp for each. Their cocktails are also amazing.

Love this place and have made 7 hour round trips for lunch just to grab a pizza.
https://tonyspizzanapoletana.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/06/TPN_Menu_601623.pdf



Al Pastor tacos are also better from a coal fired trompo.

[Disaffected]

22. I understand that coal fires can be hotter than wood or gas

because of the higher carbon content but hotter than what could be achieved with electric heat?

I'm also curious about it because AFAIK I've never had a coal fired pizza.

[Celerity]

48. Al Pastor tacos are also better from a coal fired trompo.......YES!

[edisdead]

44. coal fired pizza is delicious.

[SYFROYH]

4. wood fired pizza ovens are a relatively recent bougie thing

[edhopper]

7. No

They are bringing Napoli style pizza to NY. Which rather than new is centuries old.
Like saying bringing wood smoked BBQ to NY is a recent bougie thing.

[SYFROYH]

9. I was speaking of NYC methods - the topic of the OP.

Obviously, baking and roasting anything in wood-fired or coal ovens is a very old thing.

[edhopper]

20. again, no

These are Pizza restaurants with Neapolitan pizza ovens, often imported from Italy. It is done the same way as in Napoli.
The difference would be places like Lomardos or Grimaldis which were the first pizza makers in NY and the go back over a century when their families first started making pizza in NYC.
Not new or bougie.

[sir pball]

16. Cola-fired is one of the oldest NYC styles, it's been around for well over a century.

Lombardi's opened in 1905, it's far from a "recent bougie thing". Gas-fired deck ovens are the new toy, if any. Regardless, this is kind of ludicrous – it's roughly $10,000 per floor to have filtration installed in a kitchen ventilation system, and very few NYC restaurants have ducts that cross only one floor.

[ZonkerHarris]

29. Pepsi pizza?

[sl8]

34. It's that darned slippery slope. First Detroit hotdogs, then NYC pizza - where will it end?

Actually, I bet coke-fired stoves would tend to run cleaner than coal-fired.

[ZonkerHarris]

38. How about root beer or cream soda?

[sl8]

42. I'd try it. Once, anyway. :) nt

[sir pball]

36. Posting before coffee is risky! nt

[edisdead]

45. uhhh say what?

I’ll take things to say no to for $500 Alex

[SYFROYH]

50. II never saw a wood fired oven at a regular pizza place

In NYC during my time there. They seemed to have popped up popularity within the last 20 years.

[brooklynite]

5. The jackboot of the nanny state...

...this is a beyond stupid policy. It can't be sold to the public, and will end up not being implemented.

[The Magistrate]

6. Right Wing Shills Take Opportunity To Whip Up Agita Over Reduction Of Ash In Air

Would be an accurate headline, rather than this stenographic swill served up by Mr. Matza here.

[edhopper]

8. People should read what it says

They don't want to stop wood fire pizza, they want pollution control on the exhaust.

[patricia92243]

10. Bingo!

[former9thward]

23. It would require pollution control so costly it would stop wood fire pizza.

So yes, they want to stop wood fire pizza.

[grantcart]

30. Getting them to read is the obstacle

[FakeNoose]

11. I'm guessing most of the pizza ovens in NYC are gas-powered

Not many pizzas are cooked in charcoal or woodstoves. The city could control most of the emissions by regulating gas stoves, and not worry too much about the others.

[edhopper]

12. Gas stoves are regulated

Restaurants must have exhausts that are up to code.

[sir pball]

17. All exhaust has to be up to code; this is calling for very expensive add-ons.

Code for gas, wood, coal, peat moss, and even electric requires grease filtration and regular cleaning, nothing too fancy. This is calling for exhaust scrubbing, which is extraordinarily complicated and pricey, as in $10,000 for every floor up the ducting extends. It ain't happening. Not like there's a wood-burning stove in every corner bistro, there's already enough red tape surrounding fireplaces/wood ovens that it keeps them relatively uncommon. Source, decade-plus NYC restaurant experience.

[sl8]

13. The article says less than 100 establishments would be affected; link to BBC article:

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-66027038

[FSogol]

18. In that case, just get a grant and give resturants the cash to install the scrubbers. n/t

[former9thward]

24. A grant from who?

[FSogol]

25. Feds or State or environmental groups.

Grant money does exist.

[markpkessinger]

26. If fewer than 100 establishments would be affected . . .

. . . then it seriously calls into question whether this is the best area in which to focus efforts to combat climate change.

[NYC Liberal]

39. The law isn't about addressing climate change though.

It's about mitigating the health effects caused by the air pollution in and around the stores that are using them.

Emissions from wood smoke, discussed below, can cause coughing, wheezing, asthma attacks, heart attacks, and premature death, among other health effects.1 Many of these pollutants can worsen air quality indoors and outdoors.

• Particle pollution. In some places, wood-burning is the major source of particle pollution.
  
• Carbon monoxide. Wood smoke add to the outdoor levels of carbon monoxide, as well as increasing indoor concentrations
  
• Nitrogen oxides. Nitrogen oxides harm health indoors and outdoors, and helps create particle pollution.
  
• Volatile organic compounds. These gases include harmful pollutants and contribute to creating ozone pollution. Some of these gases are carcinogens, including benzene and formaldehyde.

https://www.lung.org/clean-air/at-home/indoor-air-pollutants/residential-wood-burning

[markpkessinger]

41. I stand corrected . . .

. . . But I still question whether it's the best area for the DEP to focus its efforts. These are businesses that operate on very thin margins, and the expense of (a) hiring a professional engineer to assess the feasibility of installing emissions controls in order to achieve a 75% reduction in particulate matter output, and (b) if found to be feasible, being required to install such a system within 180 days of the engineer's determination, is potentially a very large burden to impose on them, particularly when many such businesses are continuing to struggle with the reduction of foot traffic brought on by the pandemic.

[Danmel]

51. Totally agree

This is just overkill.

[Liberal In Texas]

19. The headline writer probably got an ATTABOY from their manager for

working "slice" into the head.





One Aw Shit....

[XorXor]

27. I have a few questions that I don't think we're adequately covered in the article

How much does it cost to install the scrubbers? The $20k figure was mentioned, but I'm not clear if that is normal, for a single oven, or confirmed to be accurate. Another is if the scrubbers being installed have any impact on the final product. My hunch is no, but I have no experience with pizza ovens. Lastly, assuming full compliance, what will be the overall impact on reducing emissions? Will it cause a noticable reduction that makes such expenses worthwhile? If it would have a major impact that could save humanity from a climate apocalypse, then maybe we should have the city government pay for the additions

[ProfessorGAC]

37. Saw The 20 Grand Number Elsewhere

That actually seems a little low to me.
Now, I don't know what the regs are for wood & coal at small scale.
But, if they're anything like large scale regs, just scrubbing the sulfur compounds would not be trivial.
Wood contains lignin which contain natural sulfonates. Coal can be loaded with organic sulfur compounds like mercaptans, disulphides, thioethers, sulfoxides, sulfones, thiophenes, sulfonates, ...
Sulfur compounds burn to for sulfur dioxide. That can be either: scrubbed by caustic water solution in a countercurrent tower to form sodium sulfite, which is then oxidized with peroxide to form harmless sodium sulfate solution, or; catalytically converted to sulfur TRIoxide whichbis then absorbed into water to form sulfuric acid.
These options are expensive or MORE expensive.
And, being small complicates the design, so it's not like a quarter million dollar system becomes $10,000 because it's 1/25th of the size.
If those components of the exhaust are regulated, I honestly don't see how they could do it for $20k, installed.

[XorXor]

46. Wow, there's way more involved in that than I thought.

So, I guess the big question remains of does the reduction of pollutants from these warrant the expenditures in money and political capital, or would that effort be better spent on targeting other larger sources of pollutants.

[ProfessorGAC]

52. Depends On Where One Lives

If you live next door to a coal cooked pizza joint, it's probably important.
But, there are probably more important pollutants to control, overall.

[XorXor]

53. What would be interesting and useful to see is some studies of the overall lung health of

people who have worked large periods time within such eateries or close by. I started reading a little bit into this stuff to get a very very very basic understanding of the topic. I saw it mentioned that the filters need to filter out at 75% of PM-10 particles (or whatever the correct phrasing is). From what I've read it looks like those pollutants increase chances of COPD and asthma complications. I tried looking for some studies about this specifically, but I didn't have much luck. I also only half-assed it, though. I also realize that my amateur understanding of anything will be extremely minimal and even if I feel like I understand something, I probably don't understand nearly enough to make any real judgement. What I really want to see are actual experts discuss this and cite/perform studies on it and present the evidence. Being able to cite some concrete data would go a long way toward reeling in some of the hesitations, or it could also go the other way if minimal impact is shown.

Maybe this stuff exists and it just needs to be made accessible. But then again, how many regular folk actually care in the end? I'm just rambling now.

[ProfessorGAC]

54. Your Last Sentence

I think they are better battles to fight.
I can see, however, grandfathering existing systems if owned by the same person.
Want to open a new one, or buy an existing business, the new rules apply.
That would go a long way to deflecting the "nanny state" accusations.

[madville]

28. If the government imposes new restrictions

On an existing business then the government should be on the hook to pay for implementation. Doubt many small businesses there have $100s of thousands laying around to retrofit existing exhaust systems.

[sl8]

31. Proposed rule (PDF), Link to Snopes article:

Proposed rule (PDF):
https://rules.cityofnewyork.us/wp-content/uploads/2023/06/Cookstove-Rules-2023-for-Public-Hearing.pdf

==========

Snopes article:
https://www.snopes.com/news/2023/06/27/nyc-pizzeria-rumors/

Explainer: About Those NYC Wood-Fired Pizzeria Rumors
A proposal that would affect popular NYC pizzerias caught the attention of social media users.

By Aleksandra Wrona
Published Jun 27, 2023

[...]

[maxsolomon]

35. Scott LoBaido can get bent.

ALL pollution should be reduced - even from "special" sources.

Cites are ending new Natural Gas installs, and there is a good reason. The planet is baking.

[Initech]

40. I'm seriously convinced at this point that if the government told people not to inhale toxic fumes..

The MAGAs would be posting videos the next day of themselves inhaling toxic fumes. You can't make this shit up.

[edhopper]

43. The more or less did

during COVID.

[DFW]

49. "Conservative activist" my ass

Any Pizza Patrick who thinks he's Patrick Henry because he throws slices of Pizza at City Hall has more than a few screws loose.

**
"Pizza Patrick" was a humorous, slightly politically incorrect song about an Irishman in New York who got so obsessed with eating Pizza that they couldn't get him out of his apartment to send him home.

"Pizza Patrick, the boy from County Cork
"Pizza Patrick was well-known in New York"