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bluesbassman

(20,042 posts)
Fri Jun 30, 2023, 10:24 PM Jun 2023

This will offend some people, and for any offence I apologize.

I will not apologize for the truth of what I’m going to say however. We have been a secularly governed for 247 years. To be sure there have been religious zealots in positions of power at various times, but their ideological goals were mostly tempered by the common understanding of and adherencethe separation of church and state.

This didn’t mean that there wasn’t individuals and groups dedicated to bringing the United States under theocratic control. They understood that any group of people who would follow a belief system based on unverifiable faith would be easily controlled if that faith could be bound to the rules and laws backed by the government. You see the government IS backed by something other than faith. There is of course the Constitution and it’s amendments, there is 245 years of documented jurisprudence, the various bureaucracies that enforce the laws and maintain the system.

The takeover of the USSC by conservative theocrats was a stroke of luck through the unlikely election of undeniably the most corrupt and incompetent man to ever hold the office of President. He accelerated the plan by installing three individuals who are committed to overthrowing our secular government from within, and decisions like today’s web developer’s anti gay lawsuit is exactly the incremental step toward achieving that goal.

If one is religious and that belief and faith encourages and sustains them, more power to them. Religion, however deeply held the belief in it is, has no business commanding, directing, or managing the governance of any large group of diverse people. Today’s ruling should make that abundantly clear.

42 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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This will offend some people, and for any offence I apologize. (Original Post) bluesbassman Jun 2023 OP
Indeed! nt Wounded Bear Jun 2023 #1
You nailed it. Spread it. blm Jun 2023 #2
I'm religious, and I couldn't agree more. summer_in_TX Jun 2023 #3
Exactly. My religion is a guide to *my* life. Not anyone else's. unblock Jun 2023 #4
You are impressive, TY! arthritisR_US Jun 2023 #7
force others to life by their religious rules keithbvadu2 Jul 2023 #26
You will get no argument from me. I think you are spot on. LoisB Jun 2023 #5
Basically moniss Jun 2023 #6
Thank you for being so considerate of other people's feelings! But NO apology is necessary. calimary Jul 2023 #8
I Feel The Same ProfessorGAC Jul 2023 #19
Well. I count Kindergarten and Pre-Kindergarten as well as 1st-12th grades. calimary Jul 2023 #20
Our School Didn't Do Pre-K or K ProfessorGAC Jul 2023 #22
My biggest longterm takeaway from Catholic school was/is calimary Jul 2023 #23
The court's derision (sic) is establishment of religion. usonian Jul 2023 #9
I completely agree. dchill Jul 2023 #11
K&R Blue Owl Jul 2023 #10
Well Stated Luck Counts Jul 2023 #12
Welcome to DU, Luck Counts! calimary Jul 2023 #24
Did Jesus rail against homosexuality and abortion? Martin Eden Jul 2023 #13
NOPE. TigressDem Jul 2023 #15
As they drive more people away from their religion Martin Eden Jul 2023 #17
True TigressDem Jul 2023 #30
Very Well Said Martin Eden Jul 2023 #32
Thank you for the clarification. TigressDem Jul 2023 #37
Alas, even here at DU the broad brush is used all too often Martin Eden Jul 2023 #42
LOL You really think that he was against harming children ExWhoDoesntCare Jul 2023 #21
Yes. Because I know the difference between the Old Testament and the New Testament. TigressDem Jul 2023 #29
Honestly, separation of church and state protects both. TigressDem Jul 2023 #14
'protects both' keithbvadu2 Jul 2023 #28
Right. TigressDem Jul 2023 #31
When the 'right' religion takes over. keithbvadu2 Jul 2023 #33
I am not promoting that ANY religion should "take over" - just to clarify. TigressDem Jul 2023 #38
Agree. keithbvadu2 Jul 2023 #39
Not Offended at All NowISeetheLight Jul 2023 #16
AGREE! bluestarone Jul 2023 #18
I fixed your post for you Mosby Jul 2023 #25
Luck??? Are you serious? edisdead Jul 2023 #27
This Christian agrees with every word of your post. 11 Bravo Jul 2023 #34
People who are not religious at all may discriminate treestar Jul 2023 #35
Religion was given the boot in a lot of governments over time. Xolodno Jul 2023 #36
Good post. I would disagree about the "stroke of luck" comment... Caliman73 Jul 2023 #40
I agree with your points. Mine was specifically about Trump. bluesbassman Jul 2023 #41

unblock

(54,473 posts)
4. Exactly. My religion is a guide to *my* life. Not anyone else's.
Fri Jun 30, 2023, 11:10 PM
Jun 2023

It's not my place to shout at people that they're sinners because they eat bacon. It's not my place to refuse to do any kind of business with them because they're sinners.

The right wing would go nuts if anyone tried anything like that, but they think they're in the right when they force others to life by their religious rules.


In point of fact, I don't keep kosher. But I do believe a fetus isn't an independent life in any moral sense prior to its viability. Pregnancy slavery laws violate my religious views but the right wing doesn't care. They just think my religious views are evil and don't count. Only theirs count.

moniss

(6,429 posts)
6. Basically
Fri Jun 30, 2023, 11:37 PM
Jun 2023

what the SC decision does is set up the ability for anybody in a business to discriminate against any protected group(race, sex, sexual orientation etc.) and claim it is OK because it is something they deeply believe. Put another way they are saying the Constitution prohibits discrimination against you unless somebody really believes you should be discriminated against. The absurdity of such a position would be ripe fodder for a Monty Python sketch.

But what they have set in motion is chaos for their previous rulings about protection for religious beliefs. You can be quite sure that if a business were to post a sign saying "No Baptists Allowed" there would be an immediate run to the courthouse and a 24/7 scream fest would take place on Faux News. But the justices would be faced with the prospect of saying one kind of deeply held belief based discrimination is OK while another is not. But there is no possible basis to make this argument. I know that won't stop them from arguing two contrary things at once but the chaos of doing that would immediately affect a huge amount of other supposedly settled case law. In other words they would be saying the equivalent of 2+2=4 except when it equals something else. Logic is a thing after all and not just words strung together. If it were just that string then any pretense that something was argued and reasoned simply evaporates. So you could apply that chaotic thinking to past cases and dice them how you like. There would be no certainty to anything when you use the "it's OK if you deeply believe it" rationale.

The clear reality is that this court is not going to change any time soon and the exposure of their money entanglements etc. isn't going to lead to a resignation or a successful impeachment. I wish it would but we need to act quickly and aggressively to throw this chaos back in their face. I would strongly encourage businesses to start posting signs excluding religions, Republicans etc. and refusing to do business/provide services for them. The resulting chaos is not something we created. Just exercising our newly expanded First Amendment rights giving us this ability to discriminate as long as we "deeply believe" it.

calimary

(85,100 posts)
8. Thank you for being so considerate of other people's feelings! But NO apology is necessary.
Sat Jul 1, 2023, 12:03 AM
Jul 2023

Fourteen years in Catholic school speaking here. The education was serious, demanding, and uncompromising, but those nuns probably didn't expect that they were developing a bunch of independent thinkers who'd question authority (AND organized religion also). Even so, I'm glad to have had that background - and a lot of crazy stories, too.

ProfessorGAC

(71,385 posts)
19. I Feel The Same
Sat Jul 1, 2023, 05:39 PM
Jul 2023

Also, 12 years of catholic school here. Plus, all but one college was affiliated with the catholic faith.
I never felt (at least in the years where kids start thinking for themselves) religion was pushed hard, nor did it intrude in other subject matters.
We first learned about evolution in 4th grade!
Sure, the Crusades were taught as some big heroic adventure, but kids in public schools were hearing that same stuff. Yes, the slaughter of indigenous Americans was ignored, but it was pretty much everywhere in the mid 60s.
I had friends at the big junior high on our side of town, and they were doing math in 8th grade, we dud in early 7th.
Rigorous academic approach that created people who think independently. But, I think they thought it was their job.
After all, this was during & shortly after the reforms of John 23. The Opus Dei silliness was a reactionary response to those reforms but didn't achieve clout until long after people like me were out of school.
I honestly don't know what it's like in catholic schools now days.

calimary

(85,100 posts)
20. Well. I count Kindergarten and Pre-Kindergarten as well as 1st-12th grades.
Sat Jul 1, 2023, 05:54 PM
Jul 2023

K and Pre-K were a full year each, with nap time in the middle of the day. We may have been let out earlier in the day, it’s hard to remember.

But if memory serves, Sister Celenita was our teacher a she spoke with an accent whose origin I never figured out. Shit - now that I think of it, I can still hear her distinctive little voice. We wore uniforms. We had a big “classroom” that was part of the school, alongside a big open patio that led out to the playground areas. When the school put on a performance of “Cinderella,” we were the mice.

ProfessorGAC

(71,385 posts)
22. Our School Didn't Do Pre-K or K
Sat Jul 1, 2023, 06:41 PM
Jul 2023

Most of the catholic schools here started at first grade.
So, my kindergarten was at a small public school near where we lived.
My grade school was the biggest one in the city. 150-160 kids in each grade.
As early as 4th grade, the teachers were single subject. We didn't change rooms, the teachers did.
In 6th - 8th, the kids changed rooms.
7th & 8th grade was in its own building, 1-3 in another, 4-6 in a third.
There were typically over 30 in every class.
We had LOTS of lay teachers.
In 7th & 8th grade, we had one nun that taught language arts. All the other teachers were just folks. Some were young men who were there because the government wasn't drafting teachers or education majors. They told us so. In those 2 years, the nun was the only woman teacher in that building!
The school my wife went to about 2 miles away, had 180 kids in the whole school! And nearly all the teachers were nuns. Quite the difference for 2 miles apart.

calimary

(85,100 posts)
23. My biggest longterm takeaway from Catholic school was/is
Sat Jul 1, 2023, 07:17 PM
Jul 2023

you go to Catholic school to generate material. George Carlin certainly understood that.

They say when you're baptized, you get an indelible mark on your soul - marking you for God, that is, and membership in the you-go-to-Heaven-when-you-die-as-long-as-you-don't-seriously-fuck-up club. And if you DID fuck up but not seriously so, you had to go to "the way station" for awhile: Purgatory, where you had to do some time before your soul was clean enough to get into Heaven.

See? You DO go to Catholic school to generate material!

usonian

(15,576 posts)
9. The court's derision (sic) is establishment of religion.
Sat Jul 1, 2023, 12:03 AM
Jul 2023

It is blatantly unconstitutional.
They (6) are unfit for the job.

Just my IANAL opinion, of course.

I swore once to uphold the constitution, not to distort and defile it so it suits my narrow-minded prejudice.

Freedom of religion is also freedom from religion.

Luck Counts

(40 posts)
12. Well Stated
Sat Jul 1, 2023, 02:10 AM
Jul 2023

Religion may be for some, but it is not for everyone. Hence the fair, reasonable, and desirable, separation of church and state.

The percentage of 'everyone' is an ever increasing number. A number that should not be expected to live their life by the beliefs of a decreasing religious demographic that happens to be in power. Forcing unverifiable religious beliefs on non-believers has a far greater deleterious affect to society than the reverse.

calimary

(85,100 posts)
24. Welcome to DU, Luck Counts!
Sat Jul 1, 2023, 07:42 PM
Jul 2023

Indeed. Religion is not for everyone. It's not even for everyone who went to some sort of parochial school. I just had a lot of silly and fun memories. AND most conniving stuff, too. I learned how to use whatever wiles I had to get privileges. I had the grades so that helped anyway. But things like - if you volunteer to take on the job of writing down all the times for all the swimmers at the swim meet, then you got gym credit without having to change into gym wear and you sure didn't have to get into a bathing suit and then into that ice-cold pool. I sat in the shade at a table with all my time cards and sometimes a snack, and just kept track, comfortable and dry as a bone. And they couldn't do a meet without me!

And if you were the A-student, you got out of tests sometimes, because during every mid-morning recess, somebody had to go downstairs to the kitchen and pick up the mid-morning coffee for the lay teachers, and carry it up on a tray to the teacher's lounge. So I missed mid-morning recess. But the cooks downstairs in the kitchen always had some extra pastry or turnover or eclair or whatever treat the teachers would be enjoying, and I'd always get that! And that daily errand took up most of the mid-morning break, so I had just enough time to eat the evidence before the bell rang and anybody else in my class found out. I bet the ones who are still around still don't know. I found Catholic school, both grade school and high school, was full of side benefits if you could figure out how to work it.

Martin Eden

(13,747 posts)
13. Did Jesus rail against homosexuality and abortion?
Sat Jul 1, 2023, 05:40 AM
Jul 2023

I thought he was more about helping the poor and the sick, welcoming the stranger, and AGAINST the money changers in the temple.

I'm agonistic and accepting of personal religious beliefs, but it my view these rightwingers who call themselves Christians are using religion as a false flag of morality to justify their bigotry and greed.

Today's Republican Party, first and foremost, serves Mammon. They purport to be the champions of God and country, and have been very successful in deceiving tens of millions of gullible voters.

But actions speak louder than words. Those who hold sincere beliefs can nevertheless be duped into acting against the highest principles they claim to revere. In this era of Trumpism, that is painfully obvious.

Does the "conservative" SCOTUS majority sincerely believe they are serving both God and American ideals? If so, they and others like them who pull the levers of power are the most dangerous enemies we face.

TigressDem

(5,126 posts)
15. NOPE.
Sat Jul 1, 2023, 03:52 PM
Jul 2023

HE DID say that people who harm children are on his naughty list, paraphrasing.

BUT it seems to me that these are the same tactics used by KKK to whitewash their racism just writ large.

What really does freak me out is how ANTI-Christ their whole message is, and it's being preached from their pulpits.

NOT the Christianity I grew up with, NOT AT ALL.

The MAGA movement is driving MORE people away from church than anything I've ever seen.

Martin Eden

(13,747 posts)
17. As they drive more people away from their religion
Sat Jul 1, 2023, 05:18 PM
Jul 2023

They play the victim card as a persecuted minority.

They are their own worst enemies.

And ours as well.

TigressDem

(5,126 posts)
30. True
Tue Jul 4, 2023, 12:30 PM
Jul 2023

When people use any type of "righteousness" to overpower and abuse others, it's wrong. Pure and simple.

What is sad to me is that I know many Christians who are appalled at what is being done in the name of God.

We should know better by now...


The Crusades.
The Inquisition.
Henry and the Church of England.
Salem Witch Trials.

Church and State are only mixed to empower the State in it's corruption, to prevent the power of the Church from standing against it.
Or to allow the Church to take power and rule. It's never good to mix them up.

Religion should simply be about people figuring out how to live a better life and come together to support each other through the trials of living on Earth. It should NOT be about controlling anyone except your own self and teaching your kids to be decent to one another.

Religion isn't the only place we can learn morality but it was where a lot of our ideas came from and just because things are crazy right now:

Murder is still wrong.
Lying and stealing aren't good things.
Adultery complicates relationships and is another form of dishonesty.
Children obeying their parents is usually a good thing.

So government can and does legislate:

To prevent people from randomly killing others.
To make stealing and lying have consequences.
To allow people to divorce when things don't work out.
To protect and educate children to enable them to learn to be civil in our society.

Because throughout the long history of the World, these are still things most moral people believe make a society function better.

SO THE PEOPLE who actually STAND UP for those values and live their religion on their own time, SHOULD NOT be attacked because there are people who use the name of God to do awful things.

WE SHOULD JUDGE PEOPLE BY THE CONTENT OF THEIR CHARACTER, not the Church they attend or don't.


WE EITHER STAND FOR DEMOCRACY OR TYRANNY.


Freedom OF Religion and FROM Religion is a tough one to pull off, but I hope at least here on DU, some people can manage it most of the time.


I am not your enemy.

Please don't treat me like one.


Thanks.




Martin Eden

(13,747 posts)
32. Very Well Said
Tue Jul 4, 2023, 02:00 PM
Jul 2023

However, the conclusion of your excellent essay indicates you have misunderstood who I meant by "they," so I refer you to the following quote from my earlier post:

I'm agonistic and accepting of personal religious beliefs, but it my view these rightwingers who call themselves Christians are using religion as a false flag of morality to justify their bigotry and greed.

Today's Republican Party, first and foremost, serves Mammon. They purport to be the champions of God and country, and have been very successful in deceiving tens of millions of gullible voters.


In no way did I intend to convey the impression that ALL Christians are my enemies. Though I am agnostic, my wife is a regular churchgoer. And I certainly do not consider Joe Biden to be my enemy, regardless of my views on the Catholic church.


Peace,
Martin

TigressDem

(5,126 posts)
37. Thank you for the clarification.
Wed Jul 5, 2023, 05:42 PM
Jul 2023

It's not as much you specifically, I didn't get that specific vibe from you.

I was saying it in a general way too.... just a basic hope to not be seen as the enemy by people here.

I was reacting in a general way to the "ALL Republicans are bad" and "ALL Christians are tRUMP worshipers" that gets going around here that is disheartening. In spite of everything there are some people out there in "the party" and "at church" with minds of their own who are as repulsed as we are. Liz Cheney is an odd ally, but she isn't FOR tRUMP or any of his crap for instance.


"The R Party" and "Christians" NEED to stand up and wash off the stink of what is being done in the name of "Conservatism" and "Christianity" so I GET IT.


And I have had some of my best conversations about Christianity with Non-Christians. All that open mindedness is useful in that regard. And I am curious about how other people handle the moral issues without working any religion into it. So I have learned a lot in those situations and appreciate the opportunity to expand my worldview.


Peace,
Tigress

Martin Eden

(13,747 posts)
42. Alas, even here at DU the broad brush is used all too often
Wed Jul 5, 2023, 07:46 PM
Jul 2023

It's much easier to judge a wide swath of people than to articulate a more nuanced and specific behavior when describing those who threaten our rights and democracy. On one level all Trump voters are part of that threat, but they are not all the same.

Regarding how to practice moral behavior without religious influence, I think that is something all human beings struggle with at times. My parents and my mother's older sister who lived with us were not religious. They did not talk against religion, but they did instill in me and my sister a strong sense of right and wrong. Growing up, I observed kids in my neighborhood were more likely to be deterred from bad behavior by threat of punishment rather than inherent motivation to do good. Most of them went to church.

The adults in my home were all of the "greatest generation" and involved in the labor movement. Since my parents worked, I grew very close to my Aunt Kate. She was a wonderful story teller, often with a moral lesson. Born in 1907, she began working in Chicago factories at age 15. It didn't take long for her to become an activist, devoting her life to it. During the McCarthy era she spent 10 months in jail waiting for deportation to Croatia where she was born (my parents were born in the US) but there was no record of her birth in her small village, so the Tito regime refused and Kate was freed -- though never allowed to become a citizen of the America she loved.

Not long before she passed, Kate (Katherine Hyndman) was one of three elderly ladies interviewed in the Academy Award nominated 1976 documentary Union Maids -- which you can watch online, if interested.

 

ExWhoDoesntCare

(4,741 posts)
21. LOL You really think that he was against harming children
Sat Jul 1, 2023, 05:59 PM
Jul 2023
Then came to Jesus scribes and Pharisees, which were of Jerusalem, saying, Why do thy disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? for they wash not their hands when they eat bread.

But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition? For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death. But ye say, Whosoever shall say to his father or his mother, It is a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; And honour not his father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition.

Matthew 15:1-8

So he's saying, you can't talk to me about the laws about washing hands when you're not following the laws about killing disobedient children.

And before you try the, He was pointing out the hypocrisy gambit, then know that he also had this to say about the laws, that every liberal christian out there refuses to admit is in the book, in bright red letters:

Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Matthew 5:17-18

Among those laws is indeed that one must murder bratty kids.

Here:

For every one that curseth his father or his mother shall be surely put to death: he hath cursed his father or his mother; his blood shall be upon him.

--Leviticus 20: 9


And here:

If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them: Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place; And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard. And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.

--Deuteronomy 21:18-21


Those are the laws he's talking about that will last as long as the earth does, if he has anything to say about it.

But maybe your idea of "not harming" children is different from mine.

TigressDem

(5,126 posts)
29. Yes. Because I know the difference between the Old Testament and the New Testament.
Tue Jul 4, 2023, 12:06 PM
Jul 2023

Jesus didn't write or inspire the Old Testament.

What is "fulfilled" is with Jesus' own blood as He stood in place to take on the scourge of our sinfulness.
His death, His sacrifice teaches us that to truly be forgiven we must accept a New Way of living.

It does not require that we disobey the Old Laws, but calls us to a higher standard of living that is in line with the HEART of the law.

Jesus stood there with Pharisees that were like the money grubbing "prophets" of today, who preached whatever filled the coffers and called them on their hypocrisy.

The CLARITY Jesus gave to obeying the HEART of the law was this, "Love one another as I have loved you." John 13:34

Jesus stopped a woman who was to be stoned. John 8:3-11 "Let he among you who has not sinned cast the first stone" He was writing on the ground as he said this and it is thought he was listing out the sins of those present. But at any rate, he made them face their own truth and they left and Jesus didn't choose to hurt her either.

It's a different way of thinking than the Old Testament.

Boiled down, Jesus told people, quit being awful to each other and do good things instead. Stop the madness.

Living by rules down to the microsecond won't save your souls.

Changing your whole way of life and rising above the pettiness is the only way.


YOU are acting more like a Pharisee than a mature agnostic or atheist. I know. I've had fruitful talks with many pagans and those of multiple religions. IF Christians were REALLY Christlike, they would NOT HATE anyone.

Jesus went to His death hoping we would allow ourselves to be forgiven and change our ways to treat others with kindness and love.

IF YOU WANT TO PISS ON THAT, go ahead. It's still a free country.

But it does NOT show you to be a tolerant person. AT ALL. So by your own actions you show yourself to be just as unhinged as the REICH WING.

AND I GET IT.

They use the Bible as a tool to beat people with and have driven people crazy with the abuses of power.

But cherry picking verses to make it show what you want it to isn't any type of thoughtful discourse.

I'm not trying to convert you.

I am simply asking for respectful conversation.

Jesus NEVER harmed or told anyone to harm children. You are twisting verses to show how child abusers justify beating their children and saying, "It's in the Bible!" It happens. In that you are correct, but it is at odds with the actual understanding of ALL the things Jesus said and did when you put them together and see it as a whole.

People aren't perfect, but every thoughtful moment can lead to a change in behavior.

Perfection is a long way off, but improvement can happen every day.


Peace.



TigressDem

(5,126 posts)
14. Honestly, separation of church and state protects both.
Sat Jul 1, 2023, 03:43 PM
Jul 2023

It means churches of ALL types are allowed and no one is forced to believe because it's the "law".

Freedom OF religion is also freedom FROM religion.

It's also easier to keep the government OF the People, BY the People and FOR the People IN CHECK.

When leaders can't claim God-Like powers, they come and go via elections and either do their jobs or get fired for failure.

I am a Christian because I see the words and deeds of Christ as a good example of how to live.

If God does not exist, I will still have lived my life as a decent person and good citizen. I'm ok with that.

If He does, then life after this one will be without that blowhard who polluted the Oval Office during the 45th Presidency, because right now, that is my version of Heaven.



keithbvadu2

(40,915 posts)
28. 'protects both'
Sat Jul 1, 2023, 10:08 PM
Jul 2023
http://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/americas-true-history-of-religious-tolerance-61312684/?no-ist= ;

Madison also made a point that any believer of any religion should understand: that the government sanction of a religion was, in essence, a threat to religion. "Who does not see," he wrote, "that the same authority which can establish Christianity, in exclusion of all other Religions, may establish with the same ease any particular sect of Christians, in exclusion of all other Sects?" Madison was writing from his memory of Baptist ministers being arrested in his native Virginia.

TigressDem

(5,126 posts)
31. Right.
Tue Jul 4, 2023, 12:39 PM
Jul 2023

Because there can be one country and one set of Federal Laws, but just as each State has their own authority, separation of Church and State is what allows EACH religion to have it's own authority to govern itself as it sees fit as long as it isn't breaking laws that apply to all.

So, if someone wanted to bring back a religion that practiced human sacrifice, that would be a NO.
Because murder is wrong. Putting a "God" stamp on it doesn't change that.

Otherwise, go be "you" people.

TigressDem

(5,126 posts)
38. I am not promoting that ANY religion should "take over" - just to clarify.
Wed Jul 5, 2023, 05:47 PM
Jul 2023

I believe that freedom OF Religion means:

Pick ANY Religion you wish or NONE of the Above and there should be no problem.

Freedom OF and Freedom FROM are BOTH valid and require Separation of Church and State.



(Saw that the titles could mislead people about our convo.)


bluestarone

(18,663 posts)
18. AGREE!
Sat Jul 1, 2023, 05:32 PM
Jul 2023

I believe what we are seeing today is religion used to take over our country! (by countries that want America DESTROYED) It's been planned for many years. I honestly believe THIS could be the ONLY way another country could even have a chance to succeed.The problem for US, is to many so called good Christians using their faith to allow these so called Christian CULTISTS to win. I just cannot believe what i'm witnessing. I would have NEVER believed these Christians would fall for such a STUPID man to follow! The ONLY waty to defeat these IDIOT terrorists is to come together STRONGER than we ever have before. All Democrats need to get on the same page NO MATTER WHAT!! Straight DEMOCRATS Federal, State, and LOCAL. End of story!!

Mosby

(18,006 posts)
25. I fixed your post for you
Sat Jul 1, 2023, 08:17 PM
Jul 2023

This will offend some people, and for any offence I apologize.

I will not apologize for the truth of what I’m going to say however. We have been a secularly governed for 247 years. To be sure there have been Christian zealots in positions of power at various times, but their ideological goals were mostly tempered by the common understanding of and adherencethe separation of church and state.

This didn’t mean that there wasn’t individuals and groups dedicated to bringing the United States under Christian theocratic control. They understood that any group of people who would follow a belief system based on unverifiable faith would be easily controlled if that faith could be bound to the rules and laws backed by the government. You see the government IS backed by something other than faith. There is of course the Constitution and it’s amendments, there is 245 years of documented jurisprudence, the various bureaucracies that enforce the laws and maintain the system.

The takeover of the USSC by conservative Christians was a stroke of luck through the unlikely election of undeniably the most corrupt and incompetent man to ever hold the office of President. He accelerated the plan by installing three individuals who are committed to overthrowing our secular government from within, and decisions like today’s web developer’s anti gay lawsuit is exactly the incremental step toward achieving that goal.

If one is religious and that belief and faith encourages and sustains them, more power to them. Christianity however deeply held the belief in it is, has no business commanding, directing, or managing the governance of any large group of diverse people. Today’s ruling should make that abundantly clear.

edisdead

(3,359 posts)
27. Luck??? Are you serious?
Sat Jul 1, 2023, 10:07 PM
Jul 2023

Luck had nothing to do with it. Not a single damn thing.

This is the coordinated actions that the interests (both foreign and domestic) have been pushing fir decades.

Luck my ass. This was a plan firever.

treestar

(82,383 posts)
35. People who are not religious at all may discriminate
Tue Jul 4, 2023, 05:31 PM
Jul 2023

Bigots don't have to be basing it on their religion.

so the odd thing is - what if someone says they just don't like homosexuality so they won't make web sites for gay weddings, but it's not based on religion but just their hate?

Interesting this one thought she had to make it about her freedom of religion (there is also freedom to exercise).

The law in Colorado would supposedly prosecute anyone for refusing to do the website, regardless of motive.

Xolodno

(6,821 posts)
36. Religion was given the boot in a lot of governments over time.
Tue Jul 4, 2023, 07:32 PM
Jul 2023

You had one sect of a religion given complete right to persecute other sects. This can even be found in the Bible, when Saul (before he became Apostle Paul) went out to Damascus to persecute a small Jewish sect called Christians. He was even present for the stoning of Stephen.

Then it was reversed after Constantine made Christianity the official religion and that opened the flood gates of persecution.

Caliman73

(11,767 posts)
40. Good post. I would disagree about the "stroke of luck" comment...
Wed Jul 5, 2023, 06:01 PM
Jul 2023

This has been a coordinated undertaking by the Federalist Society and other right wing groups for a long time. Perhaps fortuitous timing, but definitely not just lucky.

Mitch McConnell unethically blocked President Obama from filling Ruth Bader Ginsberg's seat. The nomination was held up for almost a year because we were in an election season. The same Mitch McConnell pushed through the Coney-Barrett nomination while the 2020 election was literally under way. Kavanaugh's appointment was tainted by an FBI investigation that glossed over likely proof that he was a serial sexual abuser and that he lied in his testimony during confirmation.

Luck had likely little to do with the Court we have now. Conservatives have been planning and coordinating a right wing takeover of the judiciary at every level for decades.

While many Conservatives (at least in leadership) are also fundamentalist Christians, their main objective has always been power. They use the religious element y using religion as a carrot and stick for their followers.

bluesbassman

(20,042 posts)
41. I agree with your points. Mine was specifically about Trump.
Wed Jul 5, 2023, 07:44 PM
Jul 2023

Yes the plan had been in motion for a long time, but it was a perfect storm of bigotry, illegal and questionable activity, and missteps that put Trump in office and accelerated the plan.

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