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HAB911
(10,440 posts)
Red Mountain
(2,343 posts)Sooner this is done the sooner people can get back to their lives.
We should be prepared to de mine the conflict area.
former9thward
(33,424 posts)People are still being killed or mutilated in Cambodia by mines after 50 years.
Bernardo de La Paz
(60,320 posts)If your county (USA?, Ukraine) is invaded by murderous, sadistic foreign troops who don't give a fuck about war crimes, then sure, you'll use anything including cluster bombs to get them out.
If you can get them out without cluster bombs, great!
If you have to use cluster bombs to get them out, well, it is more important to get them out and de-mine later. If the choice is hundreds of thousands killed or tortured or child-kidnapped or brutalized in dozens of ways versus hundreds killed later by cluster bombs, go with the hundreds. The first option is unacceptable.
The perfect is the enemy of the good.
Bernardo de La Paz
(60,320 posts)...
as reported by the BBC, Russian cluster munitions reportedly have a ‘dud rate’ of 40%, meaning large numbers remain a hazard on the ground, whereas the average dud rate is believed to be close to 20%.
The Pentagon estimates its own cluster bomblets have a dud rate of less than 3%.
https://metro.co.uk/2023/07/08/what-is-a-cluster-bomb-and-why-are-they-banned-19091577/?ico=trending-module_tag_russia-ukraine-conflict_item-2 (not much more there)
former9thward
(33,424 posts)Unlike the majority of the world. Unlike our allies UK, Canada and most of the NATO countries.
Xolodno
(7,349 posts)
CaliforniaPeggy
(156,619 posts)It's regrettable that Ukraine needs them, but they do.
We cannot allow Russia to win this illegal, horrifying war.
womanofthehills
(10,988 posts)Picking up unexplored cluster bombs?
In Syria, one third of all the injured from cluster bombs were children. Little children become victims of these bomblets by finding unexplored ones on the ground. They can remain lethal for decades - this is one of the reasons why 110 countries have banned them. They are inhumane!!
Maru Kitteh
(31,759 posts)Last edited Sat Jul 8, 2023, 11:04 PM - Edit history (1)
Ukraine on Ukrainians by the Russians. Allowing Russia to continue endlessly only ensures more Syrias, more Ukraines. The munitions we are sending have a 2% fail rate. Nobody wants any of this, but it has to stop.
Celerity
(54,407 posts)
Aristus
(72,184 posts)If the Russians don’t like being cluster-bombed, they’re welcome to go home and start thinking about the sum of reparations they need to offer Ukraine.
womanofthehills
(10,988 posts)Aren’t these things banned?
Since cluster munitions spread over a large area and often explode long after they are deployed, they can indiscriminately harm civilians, which Mr. Castner said was a violation of international humanitarian law and a potential war crime.
—
Because of those risks, more than 100 countries — though not the United States, Russia or Ukraine — have signed a 2008 treaty known as the Convention on Cluster Munitions, promising not to make, use, transfer or stockpile them. Since the adoption of the convention, 99 percent of global stockpiles have been destroyed, according to the Cluster Munition Coalition.
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/07/06/world/europe/ukraine-cluster-munitions.html
Bernardo de La Paz
(60,320 posts)86,500 people world wide in 78 years? That's 1,108 per year. Or 728 per year lower estimate.
Versus 16,000 children kidnapped Ukraine. In one year.
Don't lose a realistic perspective. The Russian presence is heavy and murderous. They need to hounded out of the country and it has come to the point where cluster bombs are needed against the Russian cluster bombers.
ShazzieB
(22,582 posts)
Hekate
(100,133 posts)…maternity and pediatric hospitals; by kidnappers (about 3/4 of a million children taken to Russia), and by torturers (yes, you can identify if a dead body has been tortured — there were young kids who had their teeth knocked out and bones broken). There are many credible reports of wholesale rape of children and adults.
These are all war crimes, and there are credible accounts going back many years that this brutality is the policy of both the Russian Army and the Wagner mercenaries.
We had some intense discussions here at the beginning of the invasion by people who thought the Russians would stop and be happy if the Ukrainians would just cede Crimea. The answer is no — appeasement never works. Never, never does it work. Russia has a very genocidal history with Ukraine and Crimea — look up Stalin’s manufactured famine.
My comment has always been — what part of the US would you be willing to cede to an invader who claimed it had once belonged to them, and who arrived with tanks and bombs and proceeded to flatten it into rubble? Somehow, all I get is crickets.
I am sorry and sickened that there is a war. But Ukraine did not start it, nor did they provoke it. Nor did we. I am extremely grateful that Joe Biden set about repairing our relationship with NATO and the EU. Russia is nobody’s friend, nor have they ever been. Vladimir Putin was born and raised in the KGB, and witnessed the downfall of the Soviet Union. He believes that was the greatest catastrophe in the history of Russia, and he would like more than anything to rebuild that empire, and to weaken the West — which is why he wants all of Ukraine and has had a hand in Brexit and other schemes to break apart the EU.
Happy Hoosier
(9,535 posts)The Russians. They must be stopped as quickly as possible.
sinkingfeeling
(57,835 posts)
Wounded Bear
(64,324 posts)I trust the Ukrainians far more than the Russians, TBS. They'll be responsible about it.
former9thward
(33,424 posts)The bombs are randomly thrown over a wide area and they kill civilians for generations to come. That is why most nations of the world have outlawed them.
womanofthehills
(10,988 posts)And little children are a third of all civilians killed and mutilated by cluster bombs. The children think they look like pretty balls. The horror of this!!!!
Bernardo de La Paz
(60,320 posts)The Russians need to bug the fuck out, and it has come to this because of Putin and the Russian military.
Russia is already using high dud rate cluster bombs in Ukraine.
ShazzieB
(22,582 posts)I can't blame Ukraine for doing what they feel is necessary. Not after what Putin has done to them and continues doing (and I'm sure we don't know the half of it yet - stuff is going to come out when this is all over that will enough to fuel 10,000 nighmares...or more).
Happy Hoosier
(9,535 posts)It goes with the territory. But munitions like this are extremely effective against targets like troops concentrations and munitions depots.
former9thward
(33,424 posts)On Friday, the US confirmed it was sending the controversial weapons to Ukraine, with President Joe Biden calling it a "very difficult decision".
In response, the UK, Canada and Spain all said they were opposed to the use of the weapons.
Cluster bombs have been banned by more than 100 countries because of the danger they pose to civilians.
They typically release lots of smaller bomblets that can kill indiscriminately over a wide area.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-66144153
Response to former9thward (Reply #10)
Elessar Zappa This message was self-deleted by its author.
ripcord
(5,553 posts)And there is no way Russia is going to stop.
Bernardo de La Paz
(60,320 posts)Hortensis
(58,785 posts)that tRump could become president in 2025.
This isn't just Ukraine's biggest nightmare, it'd be a disaster for all the liberal western democracies who must contain Russia's hegemony.
Regarding our allies who say they disapprove, just a couple days ago one said Ukraine MUST become able to defend itself. Because it'd all fall on their shoulders if we failed and Ukraine couldn't. It might even be worse than the U.S. failing -- we might well actually assist Russia, such as economically. We all know and agree that cluster bombs are bad, but it may be our allies say they disapprove more than they actually do.
Shanti Shanti Shanti
(12,047 posts)It's a no"WIN"scenario
Russia will war for 20 years just because
Bernardo de La Paz
(60,320 posts)Shanti Shanti Shanti
(12,047 posts)Flamethrowers! Oh yeah, strap them on and burn the Russkies, yeah, send them everything
So we can make new stuff, war is business too!
prodigitalson
(3,193 posts)Im sure it wasn't this
dalton99a
(94,115 posts)short of chemical and nuclear weapons
Let them experience what they've been doing to Ukrainian civilians
Mr.Bill
(24,906 posts)against an enemy who doesn't.
LudwigPastorius
(14,723 posts)this is an existential fight for the Ukrainians.
They must do all that they can to win it, and, we should do everything, that doesn't risk global nuclear war, to help them
orangecrush
(30,253 posts)Give Ukraine what it needs.
Tickle
(4,131 posts)Disaffected
(6,401 posts)There are already many unexploded cluster bomb(let)s in most of the occupied areas, courtesy of the Orks, so the few duds added by Ukraine in driving them out won't make much difference, especially since the affected areas will have to be de-mined in any case.
The cluster bombs supplied by the US are mainly to stop-gap the current shortage of "unitary" artillery until production ramps up by NATO countries to supply Ukraine with sufficient quantities.
Ukraine will be using these bombs on their own territory - not in some other country.
The dud rate for US CBs is about 2.5% vs about 40% for the cheap-ass Russian crap.
Ukraine needs all the help it can get - failure is not permissible.
Duppers
(28,469 posts)TY.
Celerity
(54,407 posts)
much more at the link
Disaffected
(6,401 posts)I was just quoting some guy from the dept of defence or state that I heard giving a presentation on C-Span yesterday.
GoCubsGo
(34,913 posts)I suspect this is more of a kick in the ass to our allies to step up their contributions. "If you're not going to help out more, we're giving them cluster bombs." This seems as much a cattle prod to the others as it is an equalizer for Ukraine.
CaptainTruth
(8,199 posts)...soldiers have done to Ukrainian soldiers, let alone civilians.
I won't describe the worst of it because it's utterly horrifying.
In total I'm sure I've watched thousands of videos recorded by Ukranian troops & there's nothing that cluster bombs will do that they're not already doing, albeit somewhat more slowly.
War is hell, & I hate it, which is one of the reasons I want this one to end as quickly as possible.
AverageOldGuy
(3,833 posts). . . but war has its own calculus.
The big problem with cluster bombs is the little bomblets that do not explode can sit there for years. In Southeast Asia -- mainly in Laos where we bombed the Ho Chi Minh trail mercilessly -- old bomblets are still exploding when disturbed by a person or animal.
We are now involved in WW III with Russia. In total war -- which is what this is -- peacetime standards rarely enter into the combatants' moral calculus — and it's not clear that they should.
Bernardo de La Paz
(60,320 posts)Raine
(31,177 posts)Celerity
(54,407 posts)Between this and Biden’s nomination of the death squad pusher, murderous criminal neocon Abrams, I am dismayed.
BlackSkimmer
(51,308 posts)This is very dismaying, to put it mildly.
Response to Celerity (Reply #44)
Post removed
Celerity
(54,407 posts)Last time I checked there was no 100% march in lockstep requirement on every single issue to be a member of our Party..
Emrys
(9,100 posts)that these munitions are earmarked for the fronts the Russians have already infested with vast amounts of mines and unexploded munitions.
If you're willing to trade Ukrainian lives for a less effective and heinous method of attack that will prolong the war and misery, just come out and say so.
Celerity
(54,407 posts)those undetonated ordinances down the road. Many of the areas that our cluster bombs would be fired into are not saturated as of now.
Also, this entire proposition is based upon a false dilemma. We do not have to resort to using (via proxy) cluster bombs to defeat the Russians. We can ramp up production of non cluster ordinances. The US of 2023 has the largest potential capability for weapons production of any nation in human history. The trillions upon trillions of dollars we have spent on the war/security/surveillance state just since I was born in 1996 attests to that.
If it was indeed the case that one relatively small kinetic theatre of war is indeed draining us to point of munition depletion, then we are in far worse trouble than either you or I can imagine.
As for your statement:
I can assure you that the setting of my moral compass is not predicated upon whether you do or don't.
.
Emrys
(9,100 posts)"We" are not on Ukrainian soil.
"We" are not facing literal genocide, which is what Putin has in mind unless he's just kidding the whole world on.
"We" are not in a defensible position to sit on high horses from afar and draw red lines and second-guess the Ukrainian military which has proven itself extremely competent so far in judging what it needs for the battles essential for winning this horrible existential war
"We" are not sat in an armoured car waiting to assault a Russian trenchline across uncertain mined land with the prospect of seeing our comrades die horribly or meeting death ourselves without any of the air cover which NATO forces can usually rely on when mounting such assaults.
""We", if that, incredibly presumptiously, includes Ukrainians, are indeed in deep trouble, and I don't have to imagine it.
Munition depletion has been a constant theme throughout this war - it's the very reason why this latest tranche of supplies has even been considered.
Time equals lives - innocent Ukrainian civilans trying to muddle through in their homes, brave soldiers who are going though horrors that they'll revisit for the rest of their lives, relatively blameless Russian conscripts caught up in a war they didn't choose, but are helpless to escape because they lack the opportunities or imagination or bravery, it's not for me to judge. And bloodthirsty assholes who just want to rape, pillage, mutilate and kill any Ukrainians who cross their paths.
I have no idea how you can claim that, let alone prove it. The Ukrainans need to clear trenchlines to advance and repel the invaders to the extent that they eventually die or get to go home. Those trenchlines are incredibly densely packed with minefields
Or would you prefer that land to be saturated with Ukrainian blood? Because in the absence or adequate air cover or the munitions the Ukrainians know they need and are now being supplied with, that's what you're asking for.
They've shed more than enough already while the West prevaricates.
liberal_mama
(1,495 posts)are approving of this.
roamer65
(37,953 posts)We should give them napalm munitions as well if we still have them.
They would be good for dug in orc positions and it doesn’t leave unexploded bomblets.
dalton99a
(94,115 posts)Celerity
(54,407 posts)Michael Taylor
April 4, 2001
https://www.sfgate.com/news/article/Military-Says-Goodbye-to-Napalm-Pentagon-2935601.php
If any one picture symbolizes the horror of the Vietnam War, it's the photo of a naked 9-year-old named Kim Phuc fleeing her village and screaming in pain from the napalm unleashed by a South Vietnamese plane minutes before. The girl survived, after 17 operations. Napalm didn't. As of today, the Pentagon says it is gone from the U.S. arsenal.
Napalm, a syrupy kind of jellied gasoline, was used in Vietnam to burn forests and villages and people, without discrimination. It burned through everything, at more than 5,000 degrees, and it stuck to people and then burned some more, sometimes down to the bone. And the TV images stuck, too: jets zooming in, almost on the deck, and, in their wake, whole tracts of jungle erupting in enormous orange fireballs, the oily smoke roiling upwards.
"Napalm is a push-button word," said Michael Blecker, executive director of the San Francisco veterans rights organization Swords to Plowshares. "Everything you think about Vietnam and the insanity of that war, and there are certain terms for it -- Agent Orange, Tet, Khe Sanh, My Lai. And napalm."
At a low-key ceremony this morning at the Fallbrook Naval Weapons Station in San Diego County, the final two canisters of Vietnam-era napalm will be recycled and sent on their way to Texas and Louisiana, where they will be blended into fuel used in industrial furnaces.
snip
Xolodno
(7,349 posts)Brenda
(2,054 posts)I thought they were banned.
liberal_mama
(1,495 posts)Emrys
(9,100 posts)Last edited Sun Jul 9, 2023, 04:25 PM - Edit history (2)
Use cluster bombs on Russian trenches and clear them of hostile troops in areas that are already heavily mined and littered with unexploded ordnance, or press on and accept a greater death toll among the solders you send into battle to combat genocide - and that's not hyperbole.
I'll listen to you again when you're faced with that decision and still stand on "morality".
boston bean
(36,931 posts)YMMV
Kaleva
(40,365 posts)madville
(7,847 posts)I’ve been posting here long enough to remember when DU was anti-war. Imagine advocating here for the use of cluster bombs for any purpose back around 2005-2008.
Posters above literally saying it’s ok for innocent children to stumble upon unexplored cluster bombs and get killed years later because “Russia is already using them”. Sickening, logging off for awhile.
Hortensis
(58,785 posts)Invading their nation and setting out to erase it and them as a people and culture (genocide) is a huge ongoing series of millions of crimes against humanity.
I’ll hold off taking a position until I find out theirs. Since this does have something to do with them. I think I can guess how they feel about the relative dangers but don’t know.
However they feel, though, will affect my moral evaluation. They’re also the ones who will be at risk from use of these things, and have to be cleaning up any unexploded bombs.
Red Mountain
(2,343 posts)but I suspect they want anything that will help them kill Russians, evict them from their country and end the war in the most efficient manner.
If our country was invaded that's how I would feel.
It's nice to worry about future generations from the tranquility of our homes but they're worried about the current ones.
Hortensis
(58,785 posts)14M of them returned to the war and try to save what they could.
There are many millions displaced within Ukraine, their homes destroyed or too dangerous to return to.
As you say. Wherever I was, I'm pretty sure my own choice would be to try to save my home and community from obliteration by Russia (if not too late for my own) and work on cleaning up unexploded ordinance once we're home again and peace has been restored. That would be most right for me and any dependents who need all the help from family they can get.