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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsHas everyone over-looked the possibility of a counter-intelligence operation?
Instead of simple domestic terrorism, such as the attack on our Capitol, it was planned well in advance?
Is it possible we were, and are, being played by a foreign country?
Is it possible the documents were stolen, not for ego or personal collectible reasons, but for the benefit of another country?
If we over-looked even the possibility of a counter-espionage act from within, would that be wise?
What did you think when the president of the United States was in the Oval Office alone with Russian diplomats? Were you a bit suspicious when the president of the United States stood on the stage with another foreign leader, and praised his intelligence and truthfulness over that of the United States government?
How about the secret meetings where no notes were taken and no one in our country knew what was discussed?
Did any of that raise an eyebrow?
In my opinion, we cannot overlook the possibility.
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Blues Heron
(8,838 posts)
gab13by13
(32,324 posts)I cringe when I hear that Trump took documents for trophies, bullshit, he sold them.
Time matters Kentuck, the American people need to see the national security threat that Donald Trump poses before the election, and because of Merrick Garland's inaction that probably won't happen.
Trump should not be allowed near the Oval Office, he is a fucking traitor and a trial would show that.
Trump has been and still is being treated with kid gloves.
I was told that when Garland decided to represent Trump in the E. Jean Carroll case that Garland didn't have a choice because Bill Barr already made that decision. That idea sure turned out to be a lie. We don't need an institutionalist as AG, we need a prosecutor.
Rant off.
TigressDem
(5,126 posts)But yeah, whether he is just rich and dumb and buying people off, selling documents to foreign agents because he can and jamming up the system or being manipulated by foreign agents to do so, you're right.
tRUMP should NEVER be allowed near the Oval Office EVER AGAIN.
HE IS A TRAITOR of the worst kind.
He took an oath to defend The Constitution and he sold US out over and over again.
gab13by13
(32,324 posts)he originally chose to defend Trump against Carroll in her first lawsuit, because of Garland Carroll had to delay her trial because it was tied up in the Appeals court. Garland is way too cautious to be an AG. he should have been a SC justice.
TigressDem
(5,126 posts)Aaaand while I am as impatient as anyone to see tRUMP in an Orange Jumpsuit paying for all of his crimes it may be caution was required.
I don't think America was ever able to envision any pResident that would violate his oath of office so severely, that anyone who could get elected to the highest office in the land would have SO FEW Morals that he would throw US into this chaos and let Americans die in a pandemic so his "optics" didn't suffer.....
So making sure that anything and everything thrown at tRUMP STICKS is of highest importance.
Documenting him confessing to his crimes and getting found guilty over and over again in ACTUAL courts vs the alternate world of MAGA loons may have required getting lots of lower level convictions and his conspirators first.
It has now been proven that tRUMP lied about E Jean Carroll. Before, as pResident and former pResident, he was "presumed innocent" and IF he had been truthful, then his statements could have been legally construed as defending himself even if they were egregiously stated.
I wonder if this whole "kid gloves" treatment isn't MORE to preserve FUTURE Presidents from being ripped apart by their political opponents. Showing that tRUMP got all the leeway in the world but was still found guilty of everything he did makes it harder to allow another DOJ to ACTUALLY be weaponized.
This is assuming we can keep him out of Oval Office in 2024.
Frasier Balzov
(5,062 posts)It's official now, right?
I was also puzzled why Trump destroyed all translation / transcription notes of his meeting with Putin.
Things that make you go Hmm.
kentuck
(115,407 posts)The writing was on the wall. We just didn't want to believe what we were reading.
gab13by13
(32,324 posts)13 Russian Nationals
3 Russian companies
Konstantin Kilimnik
12 Russian GRU officers
Showbizkid
(118 posts)I thought he was a bullshit artist then.
It’s possible, I guess, he’s some kind of Manchurian Candidate/Lonesome Rhodes. It just seems like they would have picked someone smarter, savvier, less obvious.
I still think we have Mark Burnett to thank for all this nonsense more than Putin.
I’ll also go to my grave thinking his 2016 campaign was a publicity stunt that got out of control.
kentuck
(115,407 posts)Was there any outside influence? Is it possible?
gab13by13
(32,324 posts)Showbizkid
(118 posts)He was a relatively unknown billionaire whose main outlet was a quirky talk show on basic cable.
Why did that happen?
He got 30 percent in a GOP field with 57 candidates. And then ran against the most vilified politician in American history….and lost the popular vote.
There’s dozens of factors at play here.
Did a foreign power have a finger on the scale? Maybe. But i think Trump is just a chaos agent. We’re eight years into this and i still don’t see a plan of any kind.
stopdiggin
(15,463 posts)there's no reason that you can't look for the proverbial 'man behind the curtain.' (and you can make a good case that our security apparatus, and to some degree public at large, should be vigilant)
But to be intent on 'finding' that dark conspiracy - particularly without any evidence to corroborate - that's heading off into different territory.
Trump was most certainly a chaos agent. (and no doubt Putin and a whole host of others were 'delighted' with his performance) But - as has become ever so clear over the past 8 years - that chaos card and agenda, has a whole legion of domestic supporters, and agents. It (and he) manifested from within.
Showbizkid
(118 posts)It means that someone decided that an obnoxious New Yorker who had been married three times and was often registered as a Democrat was capable of hijacking the Republican Party and making it a weird nationalist isolationist personality cult.
And then got the guy from Survivor to make it happen.
I mean, how do you beat that? Do they already have a Pauley Shore ascension in the chamber?
stopdiggin
(15,463 posts)Trump as occupant of the White House - was simply not a plausible scenario - that any kind of 'power players' were going to buy into. Chaos agent - quite certainly. But destabilization is one thing - puppet master and covert 'control' of the most powerful office in the world - that's an order of a different magnitude.
And I don't think it happened like that. Happy happenstance - no problem. Manchurian candidate - nope.
Showbizkid
(118 posts)Trump is the type to go on Howard Stern and say, "You know, the Russians have been begging me to run for president. Offering me lots of money, believe me."
RFK, Jr. would make a lot more sense as a target for that type of espionage.
ExWhoDoesntCare
(4,741 posts)I don't understand why people want to think the guy didn't want to be POTUS, when he'd made no bones about wanting it--and even going after it--for several decades before 2016.
Pay attention to the history:
1) He kept the letter he got back in the 70s telling him Pat Nixon said he'd be POTUS one day.
2) He put out tentative feeling for a traitor party run in 1988.
3) Somebody printed professional signs about him running for office, an example of it as seen in this 1999 music video (time stamp 1:02):
4) He tried to get the nomination for the Reform Party ticket in 2000.
5) Then in 2015, he realized he accepted that he had to run as an r if he wanted to get anywhere. So that's what he did.
I don't now what it will take for people to realize that nobody tries to run for office that many times, over such a long time period, without wanting that office--and badly.
It was never about publicity or getting a new show or any of that.
He
Wanted
To
Be
POTUS.
I'm not saying he wanted it for good reasons--he's incapable of that. But that he wanted it for the sake of being President and all that came with the office? Absolutely. Only an idiot would think otherwise.
He wanted it. He wanted it more than he'd wanted anything else in his entire life.
Stop overthinking it and making it more complicated than it is--or ever was.
Showbizkid
(118 posts)Until 2015, none of his “strategies” had a snowball’s chance of actually leading to the White House.
I mean, if he really wanted the job he could have started out by running for mayor or governor or senator or trying to get an ambassadorship starting back in the late 80s.
We can do psychoanalysis all day on him. My opinion is he liked saying he would be a great president but never really wanted the job until he realized he could actually win.
He spent all those decades planning it but didn’t know what a “ground game in iowa” was.
stopdiggin
(15,463 posts)beauty pageant promoter, building tycoon, gambling mecca kingpin
The larger parts of this man's entire history (including his family relationships and personal life) - have been composed almost entirely of delusion - and con. His 'political dabblings' were precisely the same - until, entirely by by happy coincidence, he stumbled into the tin foil and Tea Party crowd.
ShazzieB
(22,590 posts)Here's an article (an excerpt from a book) that supports that view: https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2018/01/michael-wolff-fire-and-fury-book-donald-trump.html
Wolff claims that Trump didn't even want to win. I'm skeptical about that, but I can definitely believe he's wasn't expecting a victory that night.
Initech
(108,783 posts)I wouldn't be surprised in the least if both countries have spies and bugs all over Mar-A-Lago. And who knows how many people Trump showed those documents to? That whole place is highly suspect as far as I'm concerned. 
kentuck
(115,407 posts)In my opinion, it would be warranted.
Demanchor
(138 posts)Three countries we know of working against us is the current tally. Are they working in tandem?
TigressDem
(5,126 posts)With all of tRUMP's infatuation with the other dictators (if he wins in 2024) he will be decorating the White House out as CLUB Fascist with Gold Thrones and complimentary TOP Secret documents in every restroom, with a free copy service just outside the door.
But seriously, it's the Good Ol' Boy's Oligarchy and suppression of voting rights that worry me most.
Letting the rich rule US makes America no longer the defender of Democracy that can stand up to the other countries. Sure the rich can send our soldiers to some country and bomb them to bits if they somehow step out of line. But if tRUMP, Musk and crazy Pillow Guy are in charge, this isn't US being "played" by another country. It's an inside job of the tRUMP MAGA Cult selling US out.
WHY would foreign countries even NEED to run any counter-intelligence when tRUMP just sets a price and sells everything to the highest bidder?
And he's so narcissistic and stupid IF they told him any of their plans he'd just find a way to out himself because he's so proud of all the crap he's pulling and "getting away with" FOR NOW.
kentuck
(115,407 posts)He would love to open North Korea to exploitation, in which he would make a lot of money.
Showbizkid
(118 posts)How?
He sticks his name on shitty hotels.
Who is going to North Korea?
kentuck
(115,407 posts)...that was sold for a huge profit and soon, thereafter, was torn down. Once they get the cash, they do not much worry about the transaction.
TigressDem
(5,126 posts)I honestly gag when I even consider that bro-mance.
He could send the military there like he did with the Scottish resort.
https://www.politico.com/story/2019/09/18/military-trumps-scottish-resort-1501877
Military has spent nearly $200,000 at Trump’s Scottish resort since 2017
usonian
(25,325 posts)
MorbidButterflyTat
(4,512 posts)you think when the president of the United States was in the Oval Office alone with Russian diplomats?"
Disgust. But, I never considered that thing the president.
Every posting of that photo with trashy trump and Kislyak and the other guy, has Maria Butina cropped out. Why? She's there, too, to the far right of the trio of Russian men. That always pisses me off, that she's effectively been scrubbed.
And what an obvious Republican-type trolling, her harassing Alexi Nalvany in prison. Utter filth.
kentuck
(115,407 posts)At first, I thought he just didn't give a damn. He had no respect at all for the American people.
TreasonousBastard
(43,049 posts)behind it all.
No need to look further.
Showbizkid
(118 posts)We’ve had other business men be briefly famous and write books. I think my dad wanted Iacocca to be president for a month once.
But this fucker has been in our lives for forty years? Why?
I was joking with a friend a few weeks ago about how weird it was that Bobby Brown was Elvis for like 16 months once. I pulled up his ghostbusters song on YouTube. Trump was in the video.
Watched a documentary on the Tyson-Buster Douglas fight. Trump was in that.
Watched a documentary on the 2004 Red Sox. Trump was in that.
TreasonousBastard
(43,049 posts)a house across the street from Trump pere on Midland Parkway. My mother used to be on speaking terms with his mother at the Daitch supermarket on Union Turnpike. No great friendship, but a mutual respect as people.
But then there was Donnie. At one point if he didn't make page 6 of the Post every day, he'd burn up phones to find out why. He was hated then, too.
stopdiggin
(15,463 posts)if that is what you wish to do ..
But - not sure why it would seem necessary.
The fat bloated tick is right there in the middle of the room. And he has more than amply demonstrated ...
Kid Berwyn
(24,395 posts)The news the CIA extricated a secret agent who worked for decades in the Kremlin to monitor and report Putin’s doings, fearing Donald J. Trump would out an American spy to the Russian president, shows the U.S. national security apparatus doesn’t trust the President to keep secrets from our nation’s enemies.
That fact is amazing. And it reinforces through eyewitness reporting what Mueller documented: Putin and Russia helped elect Trump, Trump welcomed the help, Trump returned the favor through policies and actions to help Putin, and Trump has done nothing but lie about it all.
You are correct, kentuck. The guy is a threat to national security -- and the alphabet soup has been on to his gangster ass a long time.
https://www.democraticunderground.com/100212454737
former9thward
(33,424 posts)They wanted the spy out in 2016. When no one thought Trump would be president.
https://www.npr.org/2019/09/10/759554174/cia-informant-extracted-from-russia-over-growing-security-concerns
Kid Berwyn
(24,395 posts)By Jim Sciutto, Chief National Security Correspondent
CNN, Sept. 9, 2019
In a previously undisclosed secret mission in 2017, the United States successfully extracted from Russia one of its highest-level covert sources inside the Russian government, multiple Trump administration officials with direct knowledge told CNN.
A person directly involved in the discussions said that the removal of the Russian was driven, in part, by concerns that President Donald Trump and his administration repeatedly mishandled classified intelligence and could contribute to exposing the covert source as a spy.
The decision to carry out the extraction occurred soon after a May 2017 meeting in the Oval Office in which Trump discussed highly classified intelligence with Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov and then-Russian Ambassador to the US Sergey Kislyak. The intelligence, concerning ISIS in Syria, had been provided by Israel.
The disclosure to the Russians by the President, though not about the Russian spy specifically, prompted intelligence officials to renew earlier discussions about the potential risk of exposure, according to the source directly involved in the matter.
At the time, then-CIA Director Mike Pompeo told other senior Trump administration officials that too much information was coming out regarding the covert source, known as an asset. An extraction, or “exfiltration” as such an operation is referred to by intelligence officials, is an extraordinary remedy when US intelligence believes an asset is in immediate danger.
Continues…
https://www.cnn.com/2019/09/09/politics/russia-us-spy-extracted/index.html
MyMission
(2,010 posts)And I think several foreign players are in the mix.
Russia and Putin top the list, as we've often said tfg was a Russian asset, and Moscow Mitch, who has a wife with serious connections in China, is connected to both. Those 2 large, powerful countries are controlled by dictators, and weakening the US would be a great accomplishment. Or should I say it was a great accomplishment.?
And the Saudis have their own agenda.
It really concerns me, but it's a very scary and dangerous idea to promote. Spies, espionage, counter intelligence, oh my! And so many rethugs are involved, complicit, and some don't even realize it, or don't realize they've been brainwashed and conned into promoting or going along with such anti-american sentiment and actions. Many are now in elected offices, or involved in foreign corporate affairs. I'm not saying the government is full of Russian and Chinese sympathizers, but there are way too many, especially in the GOPQ, and then there are those with no morals who are for sale. While I was never a fan of the gop, it strikes me that they especially have been infiltrated and influenced by foreign interests. The party lent itself to going from corrupt to treasonous. They'd rather be Russian. I've seen the t-shirts!
I also believe there are any number of alphabet and military intelligence agencies that might be aware and monitoring these activities, but it's a pervasive problem. We know about the Russian bots.
Tip of the iceberg. And the Mueller report was suppressed, remember that.
I agree we can't overlook this, but I believe it's a deep rooted problem, not easily exposed or accepted. And I believe it's being looked at.
Warpy
(114,615 posts)as well as who moved the boxes and boxes of them out of the White House.
I have a feeling it was all sold to TFG as his "get out of jail free" card of last resort, be a shame if these fell into the wrong hands, yanno.
I think it has to be assumed they all fell into the wrong hands during the year and a half he stonewalled their return.
Still, I doubt he knew what he had, he just liked to take them out and play with them to convince himself he was still powerful.
We know he was surrounded by Russian, Chinese and Saudi bad actors. We also know he's vain and stupid enough to think he doesn't need this country, he can leave any time, that none of this legal stuff matters because he's so rich.
I hope he's not right about that.
relayerbob
(7,429 posts)Trump's been a Russian asset since the 1980s, they have said so themselves.
Silent3
(15,909 posts)...he planned 1/6, at least not as some long-term goal. We should now realize that while Putin is smarter than Trump (not a high hurdle), we shouldn't be giving him credit any longer for being a master 10-dimensional-chess strategist.
If Putin had his way, Trump would have beaten Biden outright in 2020, no need for a coup.
While I wouldn't put it past Putin to encourage the 1/6 attack, Trump and the slime around him were more than capable of coming up with that themselves, and 1/6 wasn't the goal, it was the last-ditch effort when everything else his cabal of freaks and grifters tried failed.
brush
(61,033 posts)for a while, but it would take someone with a bit more intelligence than trump to not give all of what you mentioned away.
Oh, wait, J6 wasn't specifically planned but trump has sure left his tracks all over the attempted coup. And he's given it away that there was intent in stupidly obvious ways. The documents stored in easily accessed, videod storage areas. The Dec. 2020 heated Oval Office planning meetings with morons like Sidney Powell, the Overstock.com guy, Michael Flynn and other crackpots who somehow were admitted.m
There was also the Jan. 5 WH planning meeting where martial law and alternate electors were discussed. trump also tweeted out his "it'll be wild" message to twitter followers after this meeting.
The nut left easily traced bread crumbs all along the way.
There's also his sitting in the WH watching the Capitol assault o TV for hours without lifting a finger to stop it or call the Nat'l Guard until forced to.
Maybe you're right. trump is not the smartest boy but he's all the Russians had to go with.
moniss
(9,056 posts)Joe came out and publicly announced in February of 2021 that the Orange Ruski would no longer receive any intel briefings like has been done with all previous former Presidents. Joe cited erratic behavior as the reason and stated it predated Jan 6. Some authors of books written about the final months say he never got one after Thanksgiving of 2020. That makes me wonder if the intel community, which had been wary all along, got on really heightened alert from any intel they were getting about what was being plotted by the crazies. I include a link here to the NYT article and apologize for the pay wall etc. I'm too old to remember how to defeat it.
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/02/05/us/politics/biden-trump-intelligence-briefings.html
Chainfire
(17,757 posts)
leftyladyfrommo
(20,005 posts)muriel_volestrangler
(106,212 posts)They are activities carried out to prevent espionage. In the USA, the FBI is primarily responsible for carrying out counter-intelligence - see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Counterintelligence
So when you say we've "over-looked the possibility of a counter-intelligence operation", are you saying the FBI isn't doing its job, and the US public hasn't been insisting that it should?
kentuck
(115,407 posts)Counter-espionage?
muriel_volestrangler
(106,212 posts)From most of your OP, you seem to be saying that we're not giving enough credence to the idea that Russia (or whoever) were manipulating the Jan 6 crowd into the attempted coup.
In which case I'd say the term might be "espionage" - there's no "counter" here. Or (since "espionage" has a primary meaning of finding information, as does "intelligence"
, "external subversion"?
kentuck
(115,407 posts)Russia, for example.
spanone
(141,618 posts)allegorical oracle
(6,480 posts)obvious that tfg was catering to Russia before, during and after he was out of office. Why, is the key question.
Believe he was in trouble with Russia. Putin already had dirt on him; drumpf had been traveling there for years. Rumors floated that tfg was enjoying the nightlife in Moscow and other cities on his visits. In Florida, and possibly New York, he was doing business with Russian oligarchs. That handed Putin even more dirt to hold over drumpf.
When tfg unexpectedly lost the 2020 election, he became desperate. That's why he concocted The Big Lie. Not because he believed it, necessarily, but to provide a plausible alibi to Putin. That's also why he stole documents -- to remain useful to Putin.
Now that Putin appears weakened by possible health problems and recent events in his own country, he may not be as interested in whether tfg gets elected again. But we'll probably never know how much damage drumpf has done, and could do if re-elected.
Showbizkid
(118 posts)If Putin can buy an American that easily AND insert him into the White House, we're pretty much already defeated. He's a Marvel-level supervillian.
kentuck
(115,407 posts)Donald Trump. All we can do is look at the facts. It is reported that he made over $600 million while in the White House. Of course, he did volunteer to give up his salary of $400K per year. Sounds like a fair swap, huh?
And Jared and Ivanka made more than $600 million as "senior advisers" in their short stint. As a comparison, Jimmy Carter had to give up his peanut farm to sit in the White House.
allegorical oracle
(6,480 posts)massive fraud involving high-ranking officials in another country. Whatever it is happened or began years ago. It could involve one or more of his children. What we do know is that we have no idea how low this odious man is capable of sinking.
Showbizkid
(118 posts)I kinda feel like we know exactly how low Trump would go. Because he eagerly tells us.
He finds his daughter super sexy. He grabs women and just kisses them. He takes top secret information because it's his.
I'm deadly serious. If Trump was involved with human trafficking, it somehow would have come up in an interview with Hannity.
"You know, Arab sheiks love my girls. Just love them. Say they are the best. They come to me and say Donald, "We only want to buy teenagers from you."
Mr. Ected
(9,714 posts)We are probably only privy to the criminal investigations. Matters of national security aren't being litigated in public. But be assured, the powers that be are quietly gathering their own evidence...and may end up with their own remedy as well.
kentuck
(115,407 posts)I would not be surprised if the response does not involve what is happening in Ukraine. Or perhaps Putin thought there would be no consequences?
Irish_Dem
(81,271 posts)Then you have the answer to you question.