Some asshole used ChatGPT to write two novels to finish the series Game of Thrones is based on

[highplainsdem]

George R.R. Martin hasn't commented on it yet. I hope there will be a lawsuit.

The asshole who did this, an independent developer named Liam Swayne, got ChatGPT to churn out more than a million words in those two long novels.

IGN story on this

https://www.ign.com/articles/someone-used-chatgpt-to-finish-the-game-of-thrones-book-series

Which links to this post from Swayne at GitHub

https://github.com/LiamSwayne/AI-Song-Of-Ice-And-Fire

where he wrote:

Disclaimer: This is NOT an attempt to "replace" George R. R. Martin's work. It's an experiment to see how AI writes extensive texts. This project is not intended to push the idea that AI can replace writers.

Bullshit.

Those characters and that story are George R.R. Martin's. They aren't playthings for Swayne to use to finish a series - possibly trampling all over something Martin has already written.

If Swayne wants to write a novel, he should write his own, with his own characters and ideas and writing style.

This is exploitation of Martin's work, done for attention.

And it's despicable.

Especially in the middle of a writers' strike.


EDITING to add that I just logged in to Twitter to check the replies to IGN's tweet about this.

They weren't favorable. People there called what Swayne did "scummy" and "trash" and "the worst." One posted, "Stop using ChatGPT."

And IGN was also bashed for doing a story about it, and linking to it. But other news sites have as well.

[unblock]

1. Meh. Fan fiction is pretty well established.

If it's done for profit that could certainly be a legal problem, but if it's for free, and doesn't really undermine further commercial efforts by Martin, it's probably fine and arguably enhances his brand.

There's a ton of fan fiction for the Star Trek and Harry Potter universes. I don't think the copyright holders are complaining.

[highplainsdem]

3. This is NOT typical fan fic. The use of AI is particularly despicable in the

middle of a writers' strike Martin supports.

[SickOfTheOnePct]

7. The strike is not literary writers

It’s TV and movie writers.

A novel v. a TV script is a big difference.

[BlackSkimmer]

13. Good point. nt

[highplainsdem]

15. Martin is a WGA member, and not the only one who writes novels and

short stories as well as scripts.

The actors and screenwriters are striking in part because of the existential threat to creatives from AI. This affects all creatives (and nonfiction writers).

The Authors Guild is also taking a stand against AI: https://www.democraticunderground.com/100218099306 f

It was almost unbelievably callous of Liam Shayne to do this now. And in the late May date he referred to as apparently the date he started this AI stunt is correct, he didn't begin it until the writers were within days of striking, with AI named as one of the most impirtant issues.

[SickOfTheOnePct]

42. All irrelevant

to the point that writing a book is. It the same as writing a screenplay.

[XorXor]

25. I don't see it as being any different than fan fiction

I haven't read any of the output, but I'm going to guess it's not going to be awesome. This will not take away from sales/ audience when the real author decides to finish his stories. Also, had no one reported on this guy's little experiment with ChatGPT, then hardly no one would have known about it.

[hunter]

49. Words are cheap and easy to avoid, whatever the source.

I've managed to avoid all of George R.R. Martin's Game of Thrones stuff.

[MorbidButterflyTat]

59. "...but if it's for free,

and doesn't really undermine further commercial efforts by Martin, it's probably fine and arguably enhances his brand."

That sounds like the identical argument used when people were stealing music on Napster years ago.

Of course copyright infringement undermines the copyright holder!

It doesn't matter if the work is a novel, a short story, a screenplay, a poem, a song, a non-fiction work, etc...it is ALL copyrighted and belongs solely to the writer. People don't get to help themselves to other people's property and then smugly insinuate the theft made it better.

[unblock]

70. It's not at the same thing

Napster was simply a venue for theft of 100% copyrighted products. There was no creative add or fair use, it was simply stealing the entire copyrighted work.

That clearly deprives the copyright holder of revenue.

What we're talking about here is, broadly, new creative works that include, refer to, build on, or extend sone copyrighted elements in a new work.

There's not a simple blanket answer as to whether or not it's completely legitimate "fair use" or if it's copyright infringement. It mainly depends on questions I mentioned, such as does it harm the copyright holder commercially and does it add new creative content.


If I go to a comedy club and make a few jokes about a copyrighted movie or tv character, then pocket $100 for the gig, that's still fair use.

In this particular case, I don't see any damage to Marin's franchise or revenue, and while I haven't read and have no intention to read this chatgpt version, I expect it to be a substantial creative add. Plus if it's for free the author isn't profiting off Martin's characters.

Now, if this chatgpt version included entire chapters of martin's works verbatim or nearly so, that would certainly be a problem, and knowing how flawed chatgpt is, that is certainly a possibility. But if it avoids problems like that, I really don't see a problem in practice.


I should note, again, that most fan fiction actually promotes the original works, which is one big reason why it's not a problem in practice -- the copyright holder usually benefits rather than being damaged.

[JohnSJ]

2. Martin kept fans on hold promising two books that he never delivered. I don't have too much

sympathy if he is upset because someone did something he procrastinated on

Perhaps these books have a better ending then the crap ending HBO did

[highplainsdem]

4. It's Martin's series. It isn't owned by the fans.

And doing this with ChatGPT shows contempt for real writers.

If Swayne had written over a million words himself, it would have been a labor of love. Stupid and misguided, but still a labor of love.

This was a stunt, harmful to Martin and other writers.

You can bet the producers are applauding this stunt.

So are the AI peddlers who stole so much intellectual property for their data sets.

[JohnSJ]

6. Let him sue. Whatever chapGPT produced it is still Marin's work because it is derived from

his mediocre books

[XorXor]

50. Is he upset by it? I would imagine the people most upset are those who write fan finction

as this is basically who it is competing with. If Martin released a new book then no fans are going to say "I don't need to read this, I already read that AI nerd's little experimental project"

However, people who spend a lot of their time writing fan fiction might legitimately fear that this will spark the moment in which their community is filled with AI generated content. Which I can sort of understand, but I don't have much faith in it producing stuff that I'd find compelling to read.

[JohnSJ]

60. Good analysis

[TreasonousBastard]

5. And I see political ads putting words into mouths.

[highplainsdem]

9. We'll be seeing much more of that, too. With AI, this next election

will almost certainly be the nastiest we've ever seen.

[pinkstarburst]

8. If he had written the million words himself

and posted them to a fanfiction site (provided Martin doesn't forbid fanfic of his work to be posted--some writers do) then I wouldn't have a problem with it. There are extensive fandoms for just about every major series out there and fics continuing a series on past where the author has left off are one of the most common types of fics. It's been over a decade since Martin has written anything and he's getting old. It would not surprise me if he never finishes his series and good fanfics are all that fans get if they want "what's next?"

What makes this despicable is that he used ChatGPT. ChatGPT was trained using original material written by real writers, artists, bloggers... every single output ChatGPT produces is formed using stolen material. There should be no debate on whether ChatGPT is okay. Its use exploits real creators.

[highplainsdem]

11. I agree that using AI is the main problem here. Btw, fanfic writers are upset with

AI being trained on their writing, too: https://www.nytimes.com/2023/07/15/technology/artificial-intelligence-models-chat-data.html , Archive page https://archive.ph/Uhv5W .

But the fact that some fans think it's OK to use AI to pressure artists, either to release new work or do a certain type of work, is also a problem. I've posted articles here on music fans creating new music "by" their favorite artists with AI in the hope that will force them to cover a song they haven't covered yet, or collaborate with another artist they haven't collaborated with - or even collaborate with the fan. This misuse of AI requires little or no time, and little or no talent from the fan, but it turns them into artists' puppet masters (or wannabe puppet masters) who can flood the internet and get their AI garbage going viral.

I don't know how much Martin has written to finish his series so far, but others publishing fanfic will make it more difficult, if he feels he needs to steer clear of some plot development he was working on because it's become a well-known fanfic plot.

Think how you'd feel if you were telling a lengthy personal story and the people listening to you all interrupted with different versions of where they think the story's going. At best that's annoying. At worst it might tempt you to give up on finishing the story.

Writers trying to finish a series probably shouldn't even look at fanfic trying to predict where they'll go, since it might interfere with their own creativity.

If AI is used to continue or finish popular series, that will make it more likely writers and publishers will feel they have to take legal action against fanfic authors and sites, especially those using and allowing AI.

And publishers might feel they need to have a planned series - at least shorter ones - completed before any of a series can be released, so the sequels to the first book can be released at the same time as the first one, to stop people from using AI to immediately create sequels before the actual sequels are out there.

That puts a serious burden on writers. Especially newer writers working on a story that will require a few more books to complete. Publishers will be less likely to gamble on being able to get that series launched successfully, if AI-written fake sequels will proliferate before the second book can be finished.

[pinkstarburst]

55. I understand all this

-AI stealing fanfic is no different than AI stealing published work. You're still stealing someone else's content that they wrote and using it to train the AI.

-Another issue in big fandoms with people publishing fanfic continuations of the established series past where the author has written to date is that if when the author does continue, if the storyline happens to coincide in some respects with one of the fics (and this is likely to happen in huge fandoms where there are hundreds of thousands of fics, especially if those fics are being careful to write in canon and extrapolate off foreshadowing the author has left), the fanfic writers have sometimes gotten pissy and claimed the author "stole" their ideas. So many authors who do allow fanfic of their work don't read the fanfic fans write. And there are a fair number of authors who say fanfic is not allowed of their work, which at least prevents it from being posted on the major sites.

Amazon needs to get serious about the AI issue and put more safeguards in place. AI books (full of gibberish) are already flooding KU and they're using click farming to drive them up in the rankings, which is taking revenue away from real authors. Amazon could easily solve this by putting extra screenings on any author who publishes more than a certain number of books per year, say 3, but so far they are doing nothing.

[sir pball]

10. Maybe ol' Georgie boy should have written them himself, if he's so worried

Without commenting on the AI issue other than to say it might actually be an interesting concept with unfinished works from dead authors, The Winds of Winter is already ten years behind, and A Song of Spring doesn't even have an estimate yet – I'd honestly be surprised if it ever comes out, given that GRRM is 74; he'll still have to be banging away in his mid-90s at this rate.

It's all kind of a moot point anyway, he dragged his heels so long that the TV series gave us the ending. It's not like anyone, GRRM, fanfic author, or a chatbot, is going to spoil much of anything. Sure, the books will take a different path, but the destination and major stops along the way are already known.

[highplainsdem]

12. See reply 11. And please show more respect for artists.

[sir pball]

14. Your feelings are noted. nt

[highplainsdem]

16. So is your lack of concern for artists.

[sir pball]

18. If that's how you feel I think, good for you.

[highplainsdem]

19. I have seen you praise some musical artists, but now I have

to wonder if you'd think it was OK for people with zero musical talent to use AI to copy them and alter their work, or have AI show them doing covers or collaborations they'd never do (as one jerk used AI to have Elvis and Frank Sinatra sing NSFW lyrics they would never have sung)...or to pressure the artist to release new work on the fan's schedule.

If you're OK with this being done to a writer you're happy to belittle as "ol' Georgie boy" you're basically okaying that kind of thing being done to your favorite musicians and singers.

[BlackSkimmer]

23. Lol.

I didn't see any disrespect; after all this is a discussion board.

But it IS a discussion board, so if someone wants to show "disrespect" for some millionaire or other, it really shouldn't be a problem.

[highplainsdem]

24. Wow. So calling him "ol' Georgie boy" was meant to be respectful, along with

suggesting Martin deserved this?

And belittling him when he's ripped off is fine since he's been successful?

Better go tell all the successful artists supporting the strike, as Martin is - he's also made it clear he's against the use of generative AI for artwork - that they don't deserve any respect or concern for their rights.

[BlackSkimmer]

26. Sorry, I'm not nearly as worked up about all this as you seem to be.

I don't know the guy, but he's successful. It seems very unlikely he's as upset as you are lol.

If he is, he's got plenty of resources to take this person to court.

[highplainsdem]

43. I have met him, long ago, and I read a lot of his early work,

before I burned out on science fiction in general. He was never one of my favorite SF writers, though he won some awards then and I respected his work.

But he, like all writers, deserves to have his work and creativity respected. He could sue - he has that legal right, as I pointed out in reply 40 below, and he isn't one of the writers who's fine with fan fiction based on his work.

But fan fiction is written by people who really are fans, who love particular characters and fictional universes. They put time and effort and their own creativity into it. Though their creativity would be better spent on writing original stories and books, and some fanfic authors eventually do.

ChatGPT enables people who aren't fans and have little or no interest in writing to just pick some fictional universe by some author who can get them attention, and then prompt the chatbot to just churn something out.

Which is why magazines suddenly got bombarded by people with zero interest in being writers, who thought they'd just use ChatGPT to spit a story out and submit it to every market that pays. Markets including the SF magazine Clarkesworld, which had to shut off submissions for a while. Self-publishing platforms like Kindle have been flooded by AI crap.

Fake writing via AI is making life more difficult for real writers and editors.

And that's in addition to all the theft of intellectual property by the AI companies, who are refusing to reveal what's in their training data sets for that reason.

[BannonsLiver]

30. He's too lazy to finish them.

[Elessar Zappa]

17. Is the one who used the AI profiting from it?

If so, I agree it’s wrong. But if it’s just for fun I have no problem with it.

[highplainsdem]

21. It isn't "just for fun" when generative AI is used.

Last edited Fri Jul 21, 2023, 12:07 PM - Edit history (1)

Generative AI companies are profiting from the greatest theft of intellectual property ever. And they're doing so very deliberately. I read a story about the ethics team at either Microsoft or Google advising that the company AT LEAST make it impossible for users to have generative AI copy living artists, but their recommendation was ignored and the ethics team was disbanded.

They've also been exploiting underpaid workers in Third World countries to manually find and weed out the most disturbing images and writing scraped from the internet, to try to limit how often these mindless AI spit out such material, and that work is not only underpaid but traumatizing for the people doing it.

Generative AI companies are peddling their products to employers as a way to cut costs by eliminating employees, while publicly claiming AI is intended to help but not replace workers.

Generative AI companies are saying publicly that AI needs regulation and new laws, while lobbying against that behind the scenes.

Generative AI companies express concern about the student cheating their products are used for, after dumping the products on society, free of charge and available to any student, knowing how kids would make this go viral.

Generative AI companies have made deepfakes, include deepfake porn, easy for anyone to create, usually in minutes.

Generative AI companies have, as one expert pointed out, polluted our information ecosystem by making misinformation and fake news much easier to create and spread.

But hey, generative AI lets people pretend to be creative, in little or no time and with little or no talent or effort, so isn't it FUN! Isn't this new toy, free or almost free for now, so much FUN!

So be sure to praise generative AI and try to get others to use it, and discourage lawmakers from doing anything about it - and don't back the people being harmed by it - because it's so much FUN to have it spit out a poem or a short story or an image for you. Though you can expect to pay more for that "fun" in the future, once the companies think you're hooked. They're not doing this to entertain you for free indefinitely.

[Prairie_Seagull]

20. How long before AI fills the internet with with very positive reviews of AI?

Has it already begun? If not you know it will. These are folks seeking to make/save money, not to benefit the host of humanity.

IMO

[highplainsdem]

22. +1,000,000

[brooklynite]

27. You've apparently never heard of fan fiction...

Every popular story franchice generates books, films, TV scripts etc. if you don’t try to monetize them, what’s the harm?

Here’s an entire Star Trek TV series written and produced by fans. https://www.startrekcontinues.com/ Paramount had no objection.

[highplainsdem]

37. Have been hearing about it for over 50 years, since the days when fanzines

were mimeographed.

AI-generated fan fiction is different, especially during a strike with the use of AI a major issue.

[brooklynite]

39. Again, is there any evidence of an intent to monetize?

[highplainsdem]

41. People who create fan fiction can be sued even if they aren't making money

from it. See reply 40.

[brooklynite]

71. Martin hasn't apparently chosen to sue at this point...

...and the work of a fan or a publishing experiment has no relationship to the current writers strike.

[Polybius]

28. It's just fan fiction, only that the fan is a bot

I've written fan fiction myself, and didn't profit off of it.

[BannonsLiver]

29. Martin is too lazy to finish the books so this will probably be the closest to an actual ending.

Not that big of a deal though. Certainly not as big of a deal as you’re making it, screaming bloody murder in the OP.

[Retrograde]

31. I think he wrote himself into a corner

and can't figure out how to tie all the plot strings together. I gave up after the third volume, when it seemed to me as if Martin was getting more enamored with minor character and details of his world than with an actual plot.

It would be interesting to see what a predictive algorithm does with the ending, and if it's an improvement on the HBO show, but not enough for me to wade through two large tomes. Maybe somebody can summarize - in a paragraph or two.

[Bonx]

32. Mildly amusing use of AI. Not an asshole.

[TrotskyistTidings]

33. Sounds like fun

I'm gong to try it see what it generates for me.

[Retrograde]

34. If he wants to experiment, have it finish Edwin Drood

Charles Dickens was writing his last novel, "The Mystery of Edwin Drood", in installments when he died halfway through. Since he didn't outline his novels in advance, or leave any notes in this case, the mystery remains unsolved (and given his love of unexpected plot twists and improbable connections, will probably remain that way. Who know what he was thinking?)

So, if Swayne wants to test his program, Dickens has a huge body of work with which to train it - and it's out of copyright. So have at it!

[Snooper9]

35. I think they'll all be okay in the morning

wake up and forget all about it!

[orleans]

36. A.I. ...

can't even begin to express how disturbing i think it is...

and how disturbing it is that people are actually using it

[mainer]

38. If he doesn't make money off it, it's fan fiction

If it's just for fun or a hobby, Can he be sued?

[highplainsdem]

40. Yes, he can be sued.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_issues_with_fan_fiction

According to current United States copyright, copyright owners have the exclusive right "to prepare derivative works based upon [their] copyrighted work."[4] A derivative work is any work, including fanfiction, based upon one or more preexisting works.[5] In the case where a copyright owner chooses to exercise their exclusive right to prepare derivative works against a work of fanfiction, they can sue the fanfiction writer for copyright infringement. To prove infringement, an owner must present evidence establishing that the accused has copied protected elements of the original work.[6] If proven, possible infringement remedies include an order to cease sharing and/or to destroy the work (known as an injunction), or monetary damages. The remedy is dependent on the harm done to the copyright owner, the intent of the infringing person, and the grievousness of the infringement.[7] ...

-snip-

Anne Rice objected to fan fiction based on any of her characters (mostly those from her famous Interview with the Vampire and its sequels in The Vampire Chronicles) or other elements in her books, and she formally requested that FanFiction.Net remove stories featuring her characters.[55] However, in 2012, Metro reported that Rice has taken a milder stance on the issue: "I got upset about 20 years ago because I thought it would block me," she said. "However, it’s been very easy to avoid reading any, so live and let live. If I were a young writer, I’d want to own my own ideas. But maybe fan fiction is a transitional phase: whatever gets you there, gets you there."[56] Similar efforts have also been taken by Annette Curtis Klause, Robin Hobb, George R.R. Martin, and Robin McKinley among others. Many authors do this, they state, in order to protect their copyright and especially to prevent any dilution, saturation, or distortion of the universes and people portrayed in their works.

-snip-

Note that Martin is among the writers listed there who don't encourage fan fiction.

[honest.abe]

45. Has anyone ever been successfully sued over fan fiction?

There is a ton of it out there. Where are all the lawsuits??

[highplainsdem]

46. I don't know. But it isn't legal without the consent of the creatives whose work

the fanfic authors are copying.

[honest.abe]

47. So no. As I suspected.

[highplainsdem]

57. LOL! Where did you get the idea that "I don't know" means "No"? ChatGPT?

Last edited Sat Jul 22, 2023, 12:05 AM - Edit history (1)

I hadn't bothered to google it. I did just now. Looks as though there has been some litigation. Most authors do not want to go farther than cease-and-desist letters. And George R.R. Martin has made his dislike of fanfic well known, something Swayne could have discovered with a few minutes' googling, which makes what he did with ChatGPT even nastier and more insulting to Martin. As I said, Swayne is an asshole.

https://cbaatthebar.chicagobar.org/2022/11/11/the-fine-line-between-fan-art-fan-fiction-and-finding-yourself-sued/

https://www.trademarkandcopyrightlawblog.com/2016/10/10-copyright-cases-every-fan-fiction-writer-should-know-about/

https://kotaku.com/it-used-to-be-perilous-to-write-fanfiction-1826083509

https://www.theverge.com/2017/1/20/14340666/axanar-productions-settled-lawsuit-paramount-star-trek-fanfilm

[honest.abe]

65. None of those links answer what I asked.

[highplainsdem]

69. Sigh. The last link alone, as you can see reading the URL, is about a

lawsuit a fan site was losing, so they settled and admitted having crossed boundaries related to copyright law. The other articles describe various cases that are relevant.

The usual response to fan fiction an author wants removed from the internet is a cease-and-desist letter, and those are usually heeded, for good reason:

https://www.findlaw.com/legalblogs/law-and-life/can-you-write-fan-fiction-without-violating-copyright-laws/

The physical act of writing the fan fiction is not a problem. The problem comes when a person wants to share their fan fiction, and it is an even bigger problem if a person wants to sell their fan fiction. While selling, or profiting from fan fiction requires getting official licensing from the copyright holder, frequently, fan fiction is shared for free without consequence. Below are some tips for fan fiction authors to avoid legal trouble:

Don't publish your work online. While this may be untenable for many, or most, it is the only way to ensure you don't get in any legal trouble for your fan fiction.
Don't get too popular (which seems easy enough for fan fiction). It's the nail that stands out that gets hammered. If your fan fiction piece is getting a lot of attention and ranking in search results for the original content, you may want to consider taking it down to avoid getting in trouble.
Don't ask for, or charge, money. One Star Trek fan fiction has turned into a professional production and has been making headlines for getting sued.
Don't ignore legal demands. If you've published fan fiction online, don't ignore that cease and desist letter, if you get one. Frequently, an initial cease and desist won't request monetary damages, but rather simply a takedown of the content. If money is requested along with the takedown, comply with the takedown, even if you don't plan on paying.

There is, right now, a not-very-bright author of LOTR fan fiction who announced he had started a series of books he claimed were original, though based on LOTR. He.demanded the Tolkien estate discuss a collaboration with him after he described his book. When, for some reason he couldn't understand (the reason being their sanity), they ignored his demands, he hand-delivered a copy of his book to Simon Tolkien's home. Surprisingly, they still didn't beg him to collaborate with them. He decided to start selling his book anyway. They sent him a cease-and-desist letter, which he ignored. Then, with Amazon doing The Rings of Power, the fanfic genius decided to sue Amazon and the Tolkien estate for $250 million for supposedly plagiarizing his fanfic book, with one proof supposedly that a character in The Rings of Power had the same name as one of his characters - who'd had the same name as one of Tolkien's LOTR characters. The Tolkien Estate finally had enough and is suing the creep for selling his unauthorized sequel to LOTR. I wouldn't bet on the fan's chances.

https://news.bloomberglaw.com/ip-law/tolkien-estate-sues-over-unauthorized-lord-of-the-rings-sequel

I don't know what Liam Swayne's intentions were, when he ripped off GRRM. But if Swayne is a freelancer - the articles describe him as an independent developer - he may have thought this stunt would get him publicity and more income. So he wouldn't have to sell the books to still profit from this publicity stunt.

[honest.abe]

73. That case was about someone making money from their fan film.

Of course that’s illegal. What I was asking was about any legal cases where people were doing it for fun not profit. Sorry I don’t make that clear.

[Iggo]

64. "I don't know" does not equal "No."

[honest.abe]

67. In this case it sure does.

[WarGamer]

54. Paramount and Star Trek seem to have no problem.

BTW, STC is outstanding. Trivia note, Mr Scott is played by "Scotty's" actual son.

[highplainsdem]

58. See the last linked article in reply 57.

[WarGamer]

61. that's cool... so Paramount allows fan fiction content with some guidance

Personally I don't think it should be illegal to, for example... write a new ending to GoT last episode on TV and post it to your social media.

[highplainsdem]

63. Fan fiction can cause some very serious problems for

writers. Especially if there's a lot of it covering myriad possible plot directions for an ongoing series. Writers will usually not look at it, so it won't interfere with their own creative process. But even if they don't and they never see some element or plot twist a fan used, if the creator uses it coincidentally they might be accused of plagiarizing the fan writer. So a lot of fan fiction continuing the story a creator hasn't finished can be like tripwires set all over the path ahead.

Which is unfair to the creator. Even if the fanfic author meant no harm.

[obamanut2012]

44. Well, considering GRRM hasn't written a new book since Bill Clinton was President

Good. His disinterest after the first season or so lead to that fucked up last season. The two novels can't be any worse.

And, I am correct: he wrote a monstrous manuscript, which became the last three GOT books, and they were all written decades ago. It is crazy.

Thank God Diana Galbadon and the Starz folks are more respectful of Outlander.

Now, if this dude is selling them, he needs to be sued to Hell and back.

[Sympthsical]

48. Dance of Dragons was released in 2011

But you're right, he started writing that half-book in 1999 with Feast of Crows. But yeah, I've given up on the series. When I saw this thread title, I was like, "Well, someone should write them."

The man broke a lot of my fantasy reading for me. I just won't start unfinished series anymore*. Even if Winds of Winter were released tomorrow, there's no point. I've forgotten everything that happened in the previous books. I am not re-reading that whole mess again. Why? So I can forget again in 12 years when the last book comes out by whichever ever author manages it after the man dies?

House of the Dragon is pretty good, tho. Won't lie. And that source material is pretty much done.

But reading anymore of his written work? Done. He's not going to finish any of it. He made his millions and his true passion is television projects. He's tapped out.

*I inadvertently started the Dandelion Dynasty by Ken Liu before it was finished. It recently finished. It's pretty good.

[WarGamer]

51. fan fiction is nothing new...

ANYONE can legally write Game of Thrones books... or create Star Trek movies... as long as you're not selling anything.

[highplainsdem]

53. Not true. See reply 40.

[WarGamer]

52. FWIW, I bet AI did a better job than the TV runners on HBO.

[MorbidButterflyTat]

56. I am

right there with you.

I cannot believe the flippant comments on this thread. If someone steals your car, can the thief say, "Well...it's a crappy car anyway and you said you wanted to sell it!"

NO. Stealing intellectual property is stealing, period. Raw, ugly entitlement to copyright infringement.

[highplainsdem]

62. I'm stunned that some DUers seem to have little respect or concern

for writers and other creatives.

[Silent3]

66. I don't have the patience to slog through two AI-written novels, but I find it hard to believe...

...that, when forced to go to full book length (especially if they're as hefty as the human-written tomes), the writing or the plots or the character development could possibly hold up to what a half-decent human author would create.

Am I wrong? Has anyone read any such thing and found it satisfying? From what I understand about LLM technology, and as amazing as it can sometimes be, it's still in many ways a glorified version of autocomplete, creating plausibly-human sounding text that doesn't always excel at facts or even self-consistency.

[leftstreet]

68. DURec

[AnyFunctioningAdult]

72. Fan Fiction is awesome

I honestly cannot fathom being upset by this if the person doing it is not profiting.

[highplainsdem]

74. It isn't usually awesome for the creator of that world. See

replies 11, 55 and 63 above.

It's also, IMO, a waste of time for the fanfic writers.

I believe aspiring writers should create their own worlds. Not invest too much time and energy into someone else's. Right now there's an LOTR fan who put too much time into his fanfic, told the Tolkien estate about it and demanded a collaboration and even hand-delivered a copy of his book, started selling it and got a cease-and-desist letter he ignored, filed a crazy $250 million plagiarism lawsuit against the estate and Amazon, and is finally being sued by the Tolkien estate, which has had enough of this nonsense.

I have no idea how well that LOTR fan writes. But he might have been able to get started on a successful fantasy series of his own if he hadn't been spinning his wheels creatively with fanfic.

Of course now generative AI, based on the greatest theft of intellectual property ever, can enable even people who aren't really fans, and aren't willing to put any real effort into writing, to have a machine vomit out text. Which is already hurting aspiring writers who are self-publishing (there's a tsunami of this garbage on platforms like Kindle) and will also hurt professional writers and fanfic writers.

AI can churn out fake creative results in seconds. One AI music company alone already has about 15 million tracks on Spotify.

[ripcord]

75. If GRRM had gotten off his ass and finished the series it wouldn't be a problem

He is probably too busy counting his money to finish.