I think being "woke" ought to make white people feel bad

[cyclonefence]

As Frank Zappa put it, "I'm white, but lots of times I wish I was black."

Of course little children, white or black, shouldn't be made to feel bad about the color of their skin. But they ought, white or black, to be taught what happened. Slavery is a fact, and hiding that fact doesn't do anybody any good.

But by the sixth grade, white and black children ought to understand that what helped make--maybe more than anything else--the US the economic powerhouse it became from the late 18th century to today is the *fact* that rich white Americans had the inestimable benefit--over the rest of the world!--of not having to pay for labor in the production of some of the greatest money-making exports of the time: cotton, indigo, tobacco. Imagine the advantage of not having to pay workers!

Whether or not your family owned slaves--even if you spring from the loins of the greatest white abolitionists of the time--if you are white, you benefited from slave labor. Slave labor gave rich white men, like the Founding Fathers, the wealth and leisure time to become highly educated (ironically, it was the Enlightenment, Rights of Man and all that) while making sure the labor force continued to be unable to read.

It of course should not be presented so baldly to young children, but they ought to begin to learn about white debt--America's debt--to the black contributions to our wealth and greatness. By high school, I think children should have an understanding of systemic racism, why it is wrong, and white people's embracing of it--consciously and unconsciously--and what we all can do to begin to address it.

"Woke" is something all children by 18 ought to understand, and if it makes them ashamed to be white--well, good. That's impetus to find out what to do about it, and reading Ta-Nahisi Coates is the best way I know to begin.

[ismnotwasm]

1. This country was literally built on white supremacy

The modern concept of race was always about power. It’s a long, ugly history that many people don’t care to examine. It hurts

[wryter2000]

2. Hogwash

First of all, why did Zappa want to be black. Did he think he'd get something out of it?

Second, I learned about slavery, the holocaust, the genocide of the people who lived here originally. I never, ever felt anyone was blaming anything on me. I felt plenty about it. Anger. Sadness. And sometimes helplessness in my inability to do much to change things.

I never felt anyone blamed me. I never felt I'd done anything to create these horrors. I do recognize the privileges I get from being white, and I speak loudly to white people who want to deny their white privilege.

I do what I can to change things. That's all I can do.

I continue to feel anger, sadness, and helplessness. I do not feel shame. I do not feel picked upon when someone points my privilege out.

On the morning after Trump was elected, I thought, "I hate white people." That was just anger speaking. I don't hate white people, and I don't hate myself.

[Stardust Mirror]

5. Zappa didn't say he wanted to be black

Here is the quote from his song "Trouble Every Day" which refers to the Watts riots:
"I'm not black but there's a whole lots a times I wish I could say I'm not white"

Here are the complete lyrics:

Well, I'm about to get sick
From watchin' my TV
Been checkin' out the news until my eyeballs fail to see
I mean to say that every day is just another rotten mess
And when it's gonna change, my friends, is anybody's guess
So I'm watchin' and I'm waitin'
Hopin' for the best
Even think I'll go to prayin'
Every time I hear 'em sayin'
That there's no way to delay that trouble comin' every day
No way to delay that trouble comin' every day
Wednesday I watched the riot, I seen the cops out on the street
Watched 'em throwin' rocks and stuff and chokin' in the heat
Listened to reports about the whisky passin' 'round
Seen the smoke and fire and the market burnin' down
Watched while everybody on his street would take a turn
To stomp and smash and bash and crash and slash and bust and burn
And I'm watchin' and I'm waitin'
Hopin' for the best
Even think I'll go to prayin'
Every time I hear 'em sayin'
That there's no way to delay that trouble comin' every day
No way to delay that trouble comin' every day
Well, you can cool it you can heat it
'Cause, baby, I don't need it
Take your TV tube and eat it
And all that phony stuff on sports and all the unconfirmed reports
You know I watched that rotten box until my head began to hurt
From checkin' out the way the newsmen say they get the dirt
Before the guys on channel so-and-so, further they assert
That any show they'll interrupt
To bring you news if it comes up
They say that if the place blows up
They'll be the first to tell
Because the boys they got downtown are workin' hard and doin' swell
And if anybody gets the news
Before it hits the street they say that no one blabs it faster
Their coverage can't be beat
And if another woman driver
Gets machine-gunned from her seat
They'll send some joker with a brownie and you'll see it all complete
So I'm watchin' and I'm waitin'
Hopin' for the best
Even think I'll go to prayin'
Every time I hear 'em sayin'
That there's no way to delay that trouble comin' every day
No way to delay that trouble comin' every day
Hey, you know something people?
I'm not black but there's a whole lots a times I wish I could say I'm not white
Well, I seen the fires burnin' and the local people turnin'
On the merchants and the shops who used to sell their brooms and mops
And every other household item
Watched the mob just turn and bite 'em
And they say it served 'em right
Because a few of them are white
And it's the same across the nation, black and white discrimination
Yellin' "you can't understand me!"
And all that other jazz they hand me
In the papers and TV and all that mass stupidity
That seems to grow more every day
Each time you hear some nitwit say
He wants to go and do you in
'Cause the color of your skin
Just don't appeal to him
No matter if it's black or white because he's out for blood tonight
You know we gotta sit around at home and watch this thing begin
But I bet there won't be many left to see it really end
'Cause the fire in the street ain't like the fire in the heart
And in the eyes of all these people don't you know that this could start?
On any street, in any town, in any state if any clown
Decides that now's the time to fight
For some ideal he thinks is right
And if a million more agree, there ain't no great society
As it applies to you and me
Our country isn't free
And the law refuse to see if all that you can ever be
Is just a lousy janitor
Unless your uncle owns a store
You know that five in every four
Just won't amount to nothin' more
Than watchin' rats go across the floor
And make up songs about being poor
Blow your harmonica, son!

PS I am a HUGE Zappa fan. I own over 100 off his officially released cds, plus vinyl, books, videos, etc.

[wryter2000]

9. I have no problem with that

Thanks

[NowISeetheLight]

6. Exactly

I feel great sadness and anger at how other people have been treated. I don't feel responsible. My grandparents came from Scandinavia via Ellis Island and settled in Northern Minnesota about 30 years after the Civil War. They were farmers and beyond poor. My Dad was the first in his family to attend college and I was the second. Most of his relatives are still farming. My Mom had English, French and Iriqious in her background. They came down via Canada. Years ago I had 23 & Me testing done. The ancestorial migration map is very cool.

I guess what I don't understand is WHY knowing about something should make you feel guilty? You should feel bad about injustice... thats being human. The fact some people DO feel guilty indicates to me they are hiding something. Do they really harbor beliefs of racial superiority? If so then the fact they feel guilty may be their subconscious telling them its not right? It makes me suspicious.

[wryter2000]

10. IMHO, the whole thing about children feeling guilty is made up

By racists who want everything by black/lgbt/marginalize groups censored. The same for history they find embarrassing.

[NowISeetheLight]

11. Agreed

I agree about children. They learn hate.

[cyclonefence]

18. As so often happens here at DU

(and I'm guilty of it myself) members often react to the title of a post and that colors their reading of the post itself. I hope you understand that I agree with you that no one should feel ashamed of their color, and we agree more than we disagree.

The RW justification for withholding information about slavery and the Black experience in America begins, as I understand it, with the idea that if we know about the truth, we will feel ashamed of being white. That was the take-off point of my post.

I am often not good at communication when the topic is something I feel strongly about. Thanks for your comments.

[Iggo]

21. Often enough, that's the desired effect.

Have a nice day.

[wryter2000]

31. I read the post

Did it not conclude with the thought that maybe white should feel guilty?

[cyclonefence]

38. Nope

My idea is that white people should face up to the fact that we have *all*--all us white people--benefited from slavery, whether we are descended from slave owners or not, whether we ourselves owned slaves or not, whether we ourselves behave in a racist manner--whether we consider ourselves racists or not--we benefited and continue to benefit from slavery, and we should face up to the fact that we are complicit in systemic racism, whether we like it or not. If it makes us feel bad about ourselves, we should figure out what we're going to do about it.

Ron DeSantis et al. feel that we, and our children, should be shielded from the facts because it will make us feel bad about being white. Well, maybe we *should* feel bad about being white if it's the impetus we need to face the truth and get off our asses and do something about it.

[wryter2000]

45. From the end of the post

"Woke" is something all children by 18 ought to understand, and if it makes them ashamed to be white--well, good.

[Chainfire]

3. How long should we be ashamed for events that we had no control over?

We can't rewrite our history and we can't choose our ancestors, whether they were heroes or cattle thieves. My great grandfather owned a lot of slaves and worked them on land taken from the Native Americans by hook, crook or force. Not my fault, my father, my grandfather or my children.

Reconstruction erased the family wealth completely. My grandfather moved out of Alabama with all of his possessions in one mule drawn wagon, exiled to the wilds of North Florida. My father never owned a house and left this world three months behind in the rent and in a cheap casket bought on credit while I was in high school. (I paid for part of that working nights at Burger King) That is not so much the truth to the investors, traders and banker families in the North, who were able to pass the wealth gained from their participation in the evil institution down to their families.

I am only responsible for how I treat people, and how I raised my children, and I am not at all ashamed of the term "woke" as I understand it. I do not know how to address the social problems that exist today, inequality, distribution of wealth, education, or breaking cycles of poverty and and I don't think that anyone else knows either. The strongest contribution that I can make to the advancement of equality and social justice is to support and vote for Democrats. I will leave guilt to the masters of guilt; Christians.

[NowISeetheLight]

13. Starts with the Children

We can fund programs like education for everyone for starters. Make sure kids don't go to school hungry. Make sure they learn the mistakes of the past so we don't repeat them.

The cycle of poverty is the big thing. I watched a special on YouTube the other day about Appalachia. It focused on Eastern Kentucky and West Virginia. The poverty was incredible. All most of them knew was coal mining. Building schools and teaching cutting edge technologies that will provide good jobs is a start. It'll help America too because it'll allow us to build things like our own semiconductor plants and drug plants so we're not so dependent on other nations.

You are right about the contribution we can each make. We'll put!

I do not know how to address the social problems that exist today, inequality, distribution of wealth, education, or breaking cycles of poverty and and I don't think that anyone else knows either. The strongest contribution that I can make to the advancement of equality and social justice is to support and vote for Democrats. I will leave guilt to the masters of guilt; Christians.

[brush]

17. Just treat everyone fairly in life. It's that simple. No one should be ashamed...

of family history. Learn the facts, know that this nation benefited greatly...north and south...from the centuries of unpaid labor of POCs (mostly Black people), and do what you can to make sure fairness happens to everyone.

[cyclonefence]

39. But don't you see

that a. we (white people living today) enjoy the blessings of this great country due in large part to the free labor provided by enslaved people, whether our families owned slaves or not.

We cannot treat everyone fairly because the institutions created by white people do not allow it. Things have gone on that we are not aware of--forget police brutality and red-lining and all that. For example, I learned a few years ago that there were separate applications, in Philadelphia at least, for welfare for white and black families, based on the idea that black families just didn't need as much money as white people did. Raids to try to catch fathers who were not supporting their families took place at midnight took place at midnight for black families, in daylight hours for white families. This kind of shit has gone on forever under the surface of our egalitarian society, and the more we learn about it the more we learn that while it's commendable that we as individuals do our best to treat everyone the same, white privilege is real and it is insidious. Individual good intentions are one thing--and to be expected, frankly, and unworthy of praise--but they are not enough.

Slavery set all this up and in motion, and we can not ignore it.

[brush]

40. Well of course, but the chances of reparations paid to descendants of...

the enslaved and subsequent decades of jim crow, racism and unequal treatment still on-going is so slight it hardly registers on the scale of probability.

If the law of compounding where debt doubles every seven years is used to compute what is owed, it would break the US treasury as we're talking hundred of years of dawn-to-dusk hours of stolen labor just during enslavement only. The jim crow years and the continuing racism just enlarges the tremendous debt owed. It would amount to trillions in compounding.

How to determine who would get benefits would be argued for years. The Dawes Rolls would be cited as an example of how to do it but again, it would be argued for years vehemently, especially by the racists on the right.

IMO college scholarships to eligible students, business grants to those eligible, job training also for those who want it and community improvements and facilities would be great and probably the most that has an even slight chance of happening. Cutting checks directly to individuals will never happen.

I get where you're coming from. We're on the same page. I must repeat though, Critical Race Theory is real and is in effect continuously in this nation.

[cyclonefence]

43. I don't dare speak of financial reparations

I don't know how we would begin to accomplish that. It isn't just money--as you point out, that's pretty impossible--but the--well, I have trouble expressing this. Part of my family, like most of our families, arrived here penniless and hungry (in my case, the potato famine), but because the family structure was strong and supportive, we were able to send my forebears to college in some cases, to acquire land to farm--all the steps to success were there, simply because my family came here voluntarily, seeking a better life, "Irish need not apply" not withstanding. I think that changes everything.

Black families descended from enslaved people certainly have a strong family structure, and love and support each other, going to college (when they were allowed to), acquired land (when they were allowed to)--followed all the steps to success that my family did, but with roadblocks, sometimes insurmountable roadblocks, starting (in my lifetime) with (inferior) segregated public schools.

On the other side of my family, we arrived before the Revolution, voluntarily, and were rewarded with about half of Greenbrier County WV for service in the war. Descendants (because we were not smart enough to hold onto the land where the Greenbrier Resort now sits) worked for the C&O and prospered--because we were white. The Brotherhood of Locomotive Engineers did not accept Black men, only the Pullman Porters' Union. My grandfather kept a well-paying job throughout the Depression because of his whites-only union.

My family, despite ups and downs, and individual failures, have always prospered--because we are white in a racist society.

How can we possibly make "reparations" for that? Money, even if it were possible, is worth less imo than the constant--and continuing--"leg-up" my--and all, again imo-- white families have benefited from.

I'm sorry to be so long-winded, but I do think your ideas of scholarships, and help with business start-ups, are excellent and I certainly agree with them, but I think a more radical approach, again as impossible as financial reparations, would be enforced integration of neighborhoods (maybe "enforced" through preferential mortgage deals?) is the first step. We need to get to know each other, to appreciate each other, even (dare I say it) to love each other. I think living next door to the person you count on to help you when somebody gets sick, somebody whose family gets together with yours for backyard parties, who celebrates kids' birthday parties and graduations together--that's where I think we need to be.

I am not sanguine. We whites have it too good to want to share. Republican greed is at the extreme end of that spectrum, but I think Progressive lassitude (and denial, looking at the replies to my OP) is a problem worth addressing, too.

[brush]

44. You understand. Reparations will probably never happen.

Being white in this nation is an advantage that keeps on giving, which is why I posted what I did in my first post that you responded to.

Be kind and fair in one's dealings to all, especially Black people and other POCs. Criminal Race Theory is in effect and has been for the life of the nation from the slave holding founding fathers to now.

Use your white privilege as an ally.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

7. Fostering unpleasant feelings only centers white people in discussions about race, which isn't super

helpful. Dismantling white supremacy is not going to come from people who feel ashamed.

[gulliver]

12. I partly agree with you

It's the epitome of immoral to pick out any one group living now and try to "back charge" them emotionally or financially. It doesn't matter even slightly that there is a rationale of any kind. The question always has to be, "What does this accomplish?" If its results are negative when measured against the principle of maximizing prosperity and minimizing suffering, then it is immoral, regardless of how it feels.

[Sky Jewels]

8. This is counterproductive.

We want white people (and people of all colors) to learn real history and acknowledge that white privilege is real and to have a multifaceted understanding of history and current times in terms of racial dynamics. But if you want to push the "you SHOULD be ashamed of being born white!" thing, then you will only make some white people defensive and angry and create unnecessary backlash. It plays into the hands of the far right.

Nobody has control over their genetics or what their ancestors did. I am, however, in favor of programs that give Black people a boost, a foot in the door, access to affordable higher education, etc., etc., because there is an enormous historical deficit in opportunities and wealth that needs to be overcome.

But shaming people for being born with pale skin is not helpful at all.

[brush]

16. No one should be ashamed, even if family history has...

slave holding in it. Just learn the facts and do what you can to make things right for POCs you have contact/relationships with in your life, whether it be on the job, or just in passing on the street. Treat everyone fairly.

[TheProle]

33. Well put

[Iggo]

22. Depends on what you want to produce.

And with that, I’m out.

[Sympthsical]

14. People should be ashamed of their skin color?

Feels like things have gotten to the stage of "Can't tell if Onion parody or not . . ."

Don't feel bad about who I am. Not ashamed.

We do what we can where we can. That's all any human can do. And if people want to gaze at a Benetton of navels, there's nothing I can do about that.

[brush]

15. Great post. So well stated.

[treestar]

19. bad messaging

The past had a lot of bad things and no one today needs to be shamed or credited over it. This stuff tries to continue the victimhood, it does black people no good. Quit teaching black kids they are victims of racism and they won't feel like they are. They are getting taught that they are still victims. It's not helping.

[Tickle]

24. Agree 💯👍 NT

[Stardust Mirror]

26. "Quit teaching black kids they are victims of racism and they won't feel like they are"

they won't feel like they are victims of racism until they witness/experience
the police beat them up for nothing
the bank won't cash their paycheck
the bank won't give them a home loan
the car dealership charges them more than white buyers
I could go on and on..

Point is black people don't need to be taught about racism in school, they experience it in their lives constantly.
White people are the ones who need to learn about racism and to stop their racist actions.

[treestar]

27. how often does that happen in the 2020s?

and some of those could be about something other than race alone. It's making it about race all the time - black person doesn't get what they want - it's racism.

Any white person who says or does anything racist loses their job.

[Stardust Mirror]

29. how often do blacks experience racism in the 2020s?

Pretty much constantly.

"black person doesn't get what they want - it's racism" is pretty much minimizing all claims/instances of racism, seeming to imply that actual racism isn't pervasive in the United States.

"Any white person who says or does anything racist loses their job" - unless they are in the police, the church, the legislature, the corporate boardroom or the Republican Party.

[treestar]

35. the police were tried and do lose the job

the church? What's that done? What stories came from the other places? The Republican party is not a job.

You seem to take for granted that actual racism is "pervasive." Merely because the internet can make rare occurrences seem common by videos of these things going viral. And the white person always loses their job.

[brush]

42. Teach the truth. And teach also of the great successes of Black people...

Lewis Howard Latimer invented a process to improve the filaments in Edison's light bulbs. Madam C.J. Walker borne in 1867 was the first Black millionaire. Teach about the Greenwood district in Tulsa, Ok, aka as black wall steet. Hardly anyone knew about this until recently when the hundred year anniversity of of the race riot where envious white racists bombed and burned the prosperous community down and killed hundred in the process.

And also of the dozens of other race riots in other states where envious whites destroyed prosperous Black communities.

Black people were/and are still victims of racism. CRT is in effect. But teach the whole truth, don't hide it, but also teach the successes. There are many Black billionaires now. We just had a Black president.

Don't hide the racism. Black kids and white kids need to know the truth and the successes.

[Iggo]

20. Well, that's a weird thing to say.

[tritsofme]

23. If we didn't write nonsense like this, the RW would have to invent it.

[DFW]

25. Well, I see I'm late to the party again

Damn German media just doesn‘t inform us like it should.

I read about Governor De Doo Ron Ron wanting to outlaw „woke,“ and I STILL don‘t know what is meant by that.

In 1970, I entered college with two black roomies who were friends from high school, and I wasn‘t reading Coates, but rather Ishmael Reed (Yellow Back Radio Broke-Down, still one of the five coolest books I ever read). Needless to say, not all of my college education took place in the classroom.

Both my grandfathers were of Southern origin. One was born the son of a poor tailor in Charleston, South Carolina, an immigrant from Eastern Europe. He worked his way through college up north as a janitor. The other was the grandson of deadbeat Mississippi Riverboat gamblers who fled north to escape their debts. He never got near a college, but always was a great wit. Had he been born 60 years later, he might have made it as a stand-up comic. As it was, he got a job that utilized his comic wit as best as possible for the day: he got a job with an advertising agency. „Quick as a wink, you‘re in the pink“ was his, among many others. Several of his best quips never made it into famous ads. In the 1960s, when big topics were the War On Poverty and the Population Explosion. He said he was going to start a War on Puberty to stop the Copulation Explosion. Maybe that passed as „woke“ for the era? At age 99, he sent out Christmas cards encaptioned „Compliments Of The Seasoned.“ At age 99, that‘s Betty White or George Burns level stuff.

My parents both being very open-minded—not surprising, considering their backgrounds, always sent me and my siblings to integrated schools. This got us the predictable half-way there. We always experienced black folks, just never the black experience. With very few exceptions, I think this is as close as most white Americans, of whatever ancestry, can or will ever get. We may think we understand, but we‘ll never know.

Even so, if you‘re White, and have the time and inclination, read Ishmael Reed‘s Yellow Back Radio Broke-Down. It is not only very funny, it will bring you a step closer.

[maxsolomon]

28. Actually, the Zappa lyrics are

I'm not black
But there's a whole lots a times
I wish I could say I'm not white

The thing about "feeling bad" or guilty or shame over the historic iniquities of American history, is that EMOTIONS PASS. That's one of the basic truths of Buddhism.

[ShazzieB]

41. That makes a lot more sense than him saying he wished he was black.

Especially in the context of the rest of the song.

Personally, I don't think I've ever literally wished I wasn't white, but I understand the sentiments Zappa was expressing. In a situation like the Watts riots, I might have felt the same. But in 1965, when those riots happened, I was a high school kid who didn't follow the news or have a very good understanding of current events, and I lived about 2000 miles from LA, so anything that happened out there seemed pretty remote to me (rightly or wrongly).

One thing I'm sure of is that I've never felt personally guilty for the actions of my ancestors or white people as a whole. When I started becoming aware of atrocities committed by whites in the past, my reaction was along the lines of "Fuck those assholes!"

I don’t think any of us should feel personally responsible for decisions made or actions taken by people who existed before we were even born. What we are responsible for is our own decisions and actions and whatever we are doing to try to leave the world a better place than it would be otherwise.

[Raine]

30. No thanks, I'm not playing that game. nt

[BannonsLiver]

32. I think the term woke is hopelessly cheesy and lame

Eye roll inducing. American culture is such a dumpster fire.

[Torchlight]

34. I s'pose if I've ever felt pride towards the actions of my ancestors,

then its corollary is also well-earned.

[hunter]

37. I know people whose parents and grandparents were actual Nazis. Should they feel bad?

The framing of the question is all wrong.

We all have to examine our own history and determine what we ourselves must do to make the world a better place, even when our ancestors did not.

My great grandparents were all Wild West. They claimed not to hate Indians, "Colored" people, Chinese, Mexicans or anyone else, and would in fact hire them and treat them fairly, same as their white employees. They were "woke" for their time.

It never occurred to them that they might give their land, which had been taken by the U.S. Army for white homesteaders, back to the Indians.

Under the surface my "colorblind" family was actually racist. My grandfather had a fit when my wife and I announced our engagement. In HIS family men didn't marry "Mexican girls." (His words.) He boycotted our wedding. To his credit he got over it.

The funny thing is that as an officer during World War II, working on secret military stuff he never did explain, he frequently carried a get out of jail free card for various misfits deemed essential to the war effort -- some of them gay men caught up in police sweeps, uppity women, and non-white men jailed for not being white, etc.. His affection and respect for all sorts of people was genuine.

My grandparents were all "woke" for their time.

My other grandfather was a pacifist. During the World War II he got beat up by the cops for protesting the internment of his Japanese neighbors. He was a welder. His great compromise during the war was to build and repair ships for the Merchant Marine. He wouldn't touch warships or weapons. His wife, my grandma, was a welder too.

When my grandma was retired, a widow, living alone, and somewhat housebound she'd ask her Black and Filipino neighbors to buy her booze and cigarettes but never her white neighbors because she was too proud or something. I'm pretty sure she still felt that even as a chain-smoking drunk her social status as a white woman was still higher than that of her Black and Filipino neighbors.

[ecstatic]

46. after watching Joy today, I was wondering if maybe the real reason tiny d is against black history

isn't so much about protecting white kids from feeling bad but about fears that little black and brown kids might want revenge? Is that what he's worried about?

[cyclonefence]

47. I think there's truth in what you say

In my younger days, we'd mutter "up against the wall, motherfucker, the revolution is coming"--and we were middle-class white kids.

Doc Rivers, coach of the 76's, said tearfully in an interview after George Floyd's murder that he didn't understand why the country he loved hated him so much. Broke my heart.