And it turns out, she was totally right.

[ItsjustMe]

[50 Shades Of Blue]

1. I remember watching and whooping my ass off when she did that!

She was brave as hell and I was just in awe that she did that even though she would be getting a ration of shit for it.

[stopdiggin]

2. more than a ration

effectively ended her career ...

there's some good bios out there. worth a read.

[peppertree]

3. A woman ahead of her time.

[keopeli]

4. Is that a fact? Do you have a link for that? I can't find it on google. Thanks! I want to read about

about that!

[peppertree]

5. To be fair to him it was never corroborated

Although the parishioners did force him out of town.

I read it in a magazine many years ago.

[keopeli]

6. Plausibility and confirmation bias make me want to believe it's true! But, I'm much more skeptical

and cautious these days.

Thanks for sharing some peripheral vision about JPII's history. I suspect there is much we do not know about his history that would compromise his legacy greatly.

Aloha, Peppertree!

[peppertree]

7. You're welcome

I hope it's not true. But it's possible - and his musical chairs policy as Pope did tremendous harm to so many youths, as well as the Church itself of course.

[sheshe2]

12. see post 9

[bottomofthehill]

17. I am missing something somewhere

Parishioners forced who out of town?

[ShazzieB]

19. To be fair to who?

I remember hearing about her tearing up the photo but not why she did it.

I never followed her career closely, and not being Catholic, I haven't always kept up with everything going on in/with the Church, so I'm kinda lost, lol.

[sheshe2]

9. Found on google.

In the now-infamous performance, O'Connor sings a slightly altered a cappella rendition of Bob Marley's song "War," which condemns the racism experienced by Black people worldwide. However, O'Connor used the song to protest the rampant abuse in the Catholic Church, which she later said in her memoir was going unnoticed at the time.


To prove her point, O'Connor held up a photo of Pope John Paul II while singing the word "evil," and then proceeded to rip up the picture and throw the pieces at the camera after she was done singing.
ttps://www.insider.com/sinead-oconnor-saturday-night-live-pope-picture-backlash-2023-7

Link to tweet

[Gaugamela]

20. (Psst . . . looks like the dementia unit discovered the internet. We're all just politely ignoring.)

[Farmer-Rick]

47. Yeah, pedophilia in the Catholic Church was always a badly kept secret

I was raised Catholic and I can tell you the alter boys were victimized and abused. We kids use to talk about it all the time. We knew which priest you had to avoid. It was just sooo obvious.

That pope hid it all. Moved pedophiles around to hide how they raped the children. The Catholic Church is a corrupt and abusive institution that should just go away.

And she told the world. She made people wonder why and question the status quo pedophile rings of Catholic priests. And then the priest pedophile rings became all so obvious.

Glad she was part of the world, even for a moment.

[JanMichael]

71. I remember people telling me that there was a "bad" priest house in Sarasota

This was a long time ago and apparently they've been doing this all around the world for decades maybe centuries.

So I imagine the top priest at any given time probably knew.

[bhikkhu]

22. I was raised a Catholic, 8 years in parochial school

Which all took some time and processing. But I also remember that moment, and I've always been a fan. She did what she thought was right, which is all you can ask of anyone. I always looked up to her.

[Sky Jewels]

44. Same!

My husband and I cheered when she did that.

The Catholic Church is so fucking corrupt and evil that it's breathtaking.

[spike jones]

8. Here is the clip. Fight the real enemy.

https://vimeo.com/181480371

[Celerity]

10. fuck the paedo enabling bastards

[Iris]

11. Just said this to my spouse tonight

[mzmolly]

13. I remember watching live

as it aired. You could hear a pin drop in the live audience, for what seemed like an hour.

[progressoid]

24. executive producer Lorne Michaels ordered that the applause sign not be used

Saturday Night Live had no foreknowledge of O'Connor's plan; during the dress rehearsal, she held up a photo of a refugee child. NBC Vice-president of Late Night Rick Ludwin recalled that when he saw O'Connor's action, he "literally jumped out of [his] chair". SNL writer Paula Pell recalled personnel in the control booth discussing the cameras cutting away.[93] The audience was completely silent, with no booing or applause;[94] executive producer Lorne Michaels recalled that "the air went out the studio". He ordered that the applause sign not be used.[93]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sin%C3%A9ad_O%27Connor#Saturday_Night_Live_performance

[mzmolly]

35. Wow

I read the photo was one here Mother had. She resented the church and her Mom, understandably so.

[Polybius]

51. I too watched it live with my mom

She was in shock for a good 12 seconds. She then proceeded to call her every curse in the book.

[JoeOtterbein]

14. K n R ! Thanks for posting!...

...I know she was right because I knew the same.

(tears)

[Warpy]

15. I didn't hear a word of censure here in heavily RCC NM

Then again, I don't live in the burbs. I think that's where the howling originated.

Those of us in cities knew she was absolutely right. Cities were where abused altar boys were speaking out.

Besides, we had little use for the RCC hierarchy since they'd been poking their noses into things that were absolutely none of their business.

[vercetti2021]

16. I was too young when this aired

I was 2 years old at the time. But saw this later during reruns as an adult. Joe Pesci made a comment saying he would have smacked her the following week. Like what a weasel. He can play a good one on the screen, but in real life? I guess not.

[markpkessinger]

32. And it wasn't just Pesci . . .

. . . Even before the 1992 SNL incident, all sorts of media and entertainment figures piled on, especially after her refusal in 1990 to perform at the Garden State Arts Center in New Jersey until they agree not to play the US national anthem before the show. And it wasn't even because she was making any kind of anti-American statement; it was merely because she had a policy of not having national anthems played before her concerts because "national anthems have nothing to do with music." But since American troops had just been deployed in Operation Desert Storm, just the fact that she was declining to participate in military boosterism was enough for people to pillory her. It was shameful!

[58Sunliner]

18. Yes, she was. The backlash was telling. How dare a woman hold religious patriarchy responsible-

for it's gross abuses for centuries.

[czarjak]

21. The KKK would've been big fans in 1865.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

28. ?

[Sky Jewels]

45. Oh please. Like the Catholic Church is the victim.

[czarjak]

48. Like The KKK was founded on hatred of Blacks, Jews, C-A-T-H-O-L-I-C-S. Look it up.

[Sky Jewels]

49. Yeah, no kidding, I know the KKK hated Catholics.

That doesn't make the VATICAN, the governing body of the Catholic Church, immune from criticism when they actively covered up and denied the widespread practice of CHILD RAPE by priests and other church poohbahs!!!

I don't hate Catholics. I hate the institution of the Catholic Church though. Why? Because it has a centuries-long history of inflicting misery on millions, especially women. And its evil actions continue to this day and affect us all. Those who subscribe to the misogynistic, women-hating bullshit pushed by the Vatican took away U.S. women's bodily autonomy. The males anti-choice SCROTUS creeps are Opus Dei freaks. Now, I will say, I do hate those Talibanists. Not because they're Catholics, but because of the actions they took against half the population of the United States.

[markpkessinger]

63. I believe her criticism was directed at the Pope and the leadership of the Roman Catholic Church...

. . . and not at Catholics generally.

[Alice Kramden]

23. K&R so true

This clip still gives me chills

[twodogsbarking]

25. In a different time she would have been burned at the stake.

[Delphinus]

30. Indeed. n/t

[mamacita75]

33. Yes

I believe you are absolutely correct.

[Major Nikon]

26. Even today you have people who think organized religion is beyond criticism

And I'm not talking about narrowminded people you'd expect this from, but rather people who you'd otherwise view as very forward thinking.

There were people who thought Sinead was right at the time, and they too were silenced and far more people either said nothing because they knew they would get silenced, or simply agreed with the people who were wrong.

As sad and tragic as her situation was, the silver lining is she stood by her sentiments and they serve as a testament to why we need more people like her.

[bpj62]

27. Irish Catholic Church

The abuse committed by Irish priests was hidden for years and did not come to light until the mid 2000s. The church dominated all aspects of life in Ireland for years. From birth control to divorce the church did everything they could to keep those things illegal.

My father was born in Ireland and when we would go over to visit relatives he would pack boxes of condoms to give to his brother because you had to go to England to get them.
Regarding divorce, couples would just split up and be living with thier new partner because until 2015 you couldn't get a divorce. The downside is that alot of children were born out of wedlock. Per my cousin the youth in Ireland largely turned away from the church because of the abuse scandals.
Sinead was right about the church and she paid a huge price for taking a stand.

[geardaddy]

29. The country was furious?

The whole country? I think just the right-wing Catholics were.

[markpkessinger]

34. Actually, much of the country, including non-Catholics . . .

. . . were indeed furious with her, not over the photo of the pope, but from an incident two years earlier, in 1990, where she refused to sing at the Garden State Arts Center until the center agreed not to play the national anthem before her concert, unlike their usual policy. It wasn't any kind of anti-American statement; it was simply that she had a policy of not having national anthems of any country played before concerts because, in her words, "national anthems have nothing to do with music." But, since U.S. troops had just been deployed in Operation Desert Storm, the mere fact that she was declining to participate in America's military boosterism was enough to make her a target of dozens of prominent media and entertainment figures. It was shameful!

[HubertHeaver]

37. Only those who worship the right-wing Pope

[Act_of_Reparation]

40. lolwat?

I "think" you're having difficulty recalling just how popular Pope John Paul II was in 1992.

[geardaddy]

41. Not in this household.

[ExWhoDoesntCare]

55. Yeah, they were furious

Even liberal Catholics and non-Catholics ranted and raved about it, because christians so many times circle the wagons if any of them, even from another sect, comes under attack.

Happens all the time. Same principle at work with whites getting outraged back in lynching days. White people would suddenly transform even the lowest class and most despicable white woman into a fragile flower of white womanhood if a black man touched her, even if she'd made the first move. To Kill a Mockingbird might have been fiction, but it was 100% in keeping with actual events that happened during Jim Crow.

Same idea, just replace christian with white woman.

Dominant groups never ever welcome an attack on one of their own, not even for the ones they despise.

We non-christians and other marginalized groups know that, better than anyone.

[obamanut2012]

31. I watched that live!

[markpkessinger]

36. Much of the country was already furious with her . . .

. . . over the incident in 1990, when she refused to perform at the Garden State Arts Center in NJ until they agreed to drop their requirement to play the national anthem before her concert. She wasn't attempting to make any kind of anti-American statement, it was just that she had a policy of not having any country's national anthem be played prior to her concerts anywhere, because, in her words, "national anthems have nothing to do with music." But this was just a couple of weeks after Bush I had deployed troops for Operation Desert Storm, and the mere fact that she declined to participate in this country's pathetic military boosterism was enough to get her pilloried!

[ExWhoDoesntCare]

56. Most of the country

Neither knew nor cared about that event. Even those who had heard about it weren't all that upset about it. Artists had been speaking out against the flag and anthem and all that for decades by then. That barely caused a ripple.

Really.

If that had mattered, she would have never been on SNL in the first place. This is the same show that banned Rage Against the Machine for displaying the flag upside down during their appearance, so if SNL had cared about her not wanting the anthem played elsewhere, or if they thought audiences wouldn't approve of having her on after that, they wouldn't have let her on the show at all.

[Lunabell]

38. While I applauded this move.

How does one go from one misogynist religion to another? I found her conversion to islam confusing.

[TexasBushwhacker]

39. I was just going to say ....

[Coventina]

42. On paper, Islam is more liberal than Christianity.

Women are given specific, inherent rights that Christianity does not give them.

When Islam is practiced on purely doctrinal lines, it is much more liberal than most Christian sects and definitely more liberal than the RCC.

Under Islam women are given: specific property, education, and inheritance rights and the right to divorce their husbands.

All the stuff about dress, non-educating, subservience, etc. is all cultural trappings.

What might have really drawn Sinead to Islam is the lack of any sort of priesthood in Islam. Imams are not priests, they are just educated (but no degree required) people that the mosque deem responsible enough to teach and lead prayers.
Islam stresses the individual's relationship with god directly, with no intermediaries. That is something the RCC is directly AGAINST.

on edit: typo

[Lunabell]

43. I'm not going to debate which abrahamic religion is most misogynist.

N/T

[Coventina]

46. Well, you asked the question and I posed some possible answers.

[Act_of_Reparation]

61. Religion doesn't exist "on paper"

It exists in practice.

[Coventina]

62. Islam, just like Christianity, is not a monolith. There are a vast variety of practices in both.

There are millions of fundies in both religions, and there are millions of liberals in both.

I'm sorry if the phrase "on paper" was confusing. I meant what is expressly stated in the Qur'an and in other foundational texts in Islam.

[Act_of_Reparation]

64. I never said that it was.

The point is religious texts don't define a religion. That religion's adherents do.

[Coventina]

65. Which adherents?

As I said, religions have adherents that practice many different things.
Islam especially so.

[Act_of_Reparation]

66. Every social group has members that believe many different things.

That's why I suggest a statistical approach.

Otherwise, we could define any social group, including our own, in exactly the same way: a group of people who believe and practice different things.

[Coventina]

67. So, Islam (in your definintion) is defined by whatever the majority of self-proclaimed Muslims

practice?

If you apply that description to every religion, 99% of what is said about Christians on this board is nonsense.

Also, you might find yourself in some descriptive trouble as about half of Muslims (possibly more) drink alcohol, whereas it is supposed to be forbidden.

[Act_of_Reparation]

70. Would you agree that religions are social constructs?

[Coventina]

72. Ultimately, yes, because I don't believe "God" told anyone "the rules."

However, when a religion has written doctrine that is widely accepted as foundational to the religion, you can't just ignore it in favor of only what is practiced.

Like I said, that would make almost everything people say about Christians on this board unfair. There would be no such thing as criticizing Christians for being hypocrites. "That's just the way Christianity is practiced," would be the defense.

[eppur_se_muova]

50. I remember seeing this at the time.

I'm not Catholic, and didn't know what she was protesting. But I thought, meh, a little over the top, but there's no law against criticizing the Pope. I had no idea she was banned by NBC and not just the SNL producers. Seems like pretty chickenshit retribution.

[Polybius]

54. She would have been banned from NBC for destroying a Torah or Koran as well

A statement is one thing, but this was way over the top, especially for 1992.

[ExWhoDoesntCare]

57. What nonsense

It's a picture of a human being. Not a holy book.

Big difference.

[Polybius]

58. Imagine if she ripped a picture of prophet Muhammad

The reaction would have been much greater, with legit threats towards her. At least with Catholics, there was just outrage.

[Act_of_Reparation]

60. To many Catholics, the Pope is not just another human being.

And to many people holy books are just, well, books.

Whether there's a "big difference" really depends on who you ask.

[Polybius]

53. While it hurt her career, just imagine if she had done the same thing in England..

To a drawing of a certain Muslim prophet...

[Iggo]

59. She was right from the get-go, and everyone knew it.

What followed was the most massive tone argument I’ve ever seen.

[sarcasmo]

68. I don't know no shame, I feel no pain, I can't see the flame, but I do know Mandinka.

[maxsolomon]

69. It was taken as an attack on JPII, not the RCC in general. People didn't get it.

At the time, he was immensely popular even with non-Catholics. I have no idea if he was part of the quashing of pederasty investigations.

It's not like she was the 1st person to accuse priests of abusing kids.

She'd have been better advised to tear up a photo of St. Peters in Rome.

[Coventina]

73. He was very involved in the cover up. n/t

[maxsolomon]

74. That wasn't particularly well known at the time, or even today.

Do you think that Shahuda meant that JPII specifically was "the real enemy", and not the church as a whole? I don't.

It wasn't even clear from the SNL appearance, which I watched live, that her issue was the pederasty scandal.

[Coventina]

75. I think she somewhat overestimated her audience's knowledge.

She had been very outspoken about the RCC's abuses and the cover-ups by the hierarchy, however, to most of the audience watching SNL that night, she was a "newcomer" who was relatively unknown to American audiences.

I had already been a fan for several years by that point, so I knew. At the time I thought anyone bothering to watch would have known but in retrospect, that was dumb of me.

Americans are almost always ignorant of anything outside their shores. (Or beyond their noses).

[maxsolomon]

76. Well, most of us America post-Catholics were certainly aware of pederast priests

in 1992, as well as a number of active Catholics like my parents. Certainly not all Catholics, though.

JPII was already a "3rd Rail" because of the assassination attempt (and because of recent collapse of the Soviet Empire).

It was definitely American ignorance that played a huge role in the backlash.