'I can't believe we're having this conversation': the states pushing for 14 yr olds to serve alcohol

[marmar]

(Guardian UK) In the small town of Freedom, Wisconsin, Buzz’s Pub and Grill – a local sports bar whose logo features frothing beer mugs in the colors of the American flag – has been short-staffed since the pandemic. Jeff Baker, the owner, says he “could use one more bartender, and probably two more cooks”. He hasn’t found takers in over a year of running “help wanted” ads, so he’s made do by working extra shifts in the kitchen and paring back the menu.

Baker could soon get more job applicants thanks to a new proposal that would lower Wisconsin’s minimum age for alcohol service to just 14 years old. It would “absolutely” be a welcome change if children applied, he says. “Not as many kids work as much as they used to. Back in our day, more kids were needed, and more parents made their kids work.”

Wisconsin is just one of a growing number of states where predominantly Republican lawmakers are making quiet moves to roll back the alcohol service age, so that kids who can’t legally buy alcohol – or in Wisconsin’s case, even drive a car – would be allowed to serve hard drinks to customers at bars and restaurants. In addition to alleviating the labor shortage, lawmakers behind the bills argue letting kids serve alcohol would give them valuable work experience.

That’s left some opponents of the bills at a loss for words. “It’s bizarre. I can’t believe that we’re even having this conversation,” says Ryan Clancy, a Democratic state legislator who represents parts of Milwaukee, where he also owns an entertainment center that serves alcohol. He’s seen how drunk customers can harass workers, and “the idea that we would expose Wisconsin’s children to harassment through this is just unconscionable. It’s not only an erosion of labor, but our willingness to protect our kids.” .............(more)

https://www.theguardian.com/law/2023/jul/31/republicans-child-labor-bars-alcohol-service-age-wisconsin

[Bucky]

1. But they'll balance it by not letting them vote to they're 26

[jimfields33]

4. Don't give them any ideas.

With many things going to age 21, you know someday they will challenge the amendment. Probably during the next constitutional convention.

[LiberalFighter]

2. What will be next? Minors dispensing Rx at a pharmacy without a license?

[LiberalFighter]

3. What will they be paid?

[former9thward]

39. What are they paid now?

They can work at a restaurant. The issue is alcohol.

[multigraincracker]

5. If you need them that bad,

pay them what they are worth. Minimum wage for 16 and under…$30 per hour.

[Eliot Rosewater]

22. That would solve this problem, the last thing cons want is to actually pay people

[former9thward]

47. Do you want to drive restaurants out of business?

That will really go over with our voters. Yep.

[multigraincracker]

59. Lots of restaurants have no kids

working there and do fine.

[former9thward]

67. So ban all "kids".

Since the topic here is alcohol that means anyone under 21. I guess I go to different places than you.

[Elessar Zappa]

61. Uh huh.

You sound like a Republican.

[former9thward]

68. That sounds like a personal attack which is against DU's TOS.

[Autumn]

6. This is not fucking satire?

[Diamond_Dog]

7. Old enough to bring drunk adults more beer

But don’t let them read a book! We must protect their innocence!

[Zeitghost]

24. How is that different

Than bringing the drunks another plate of nachos?

Kids shouldn't be behind a bar. But brining out drinks in a restaurant doesn't seem like a huge problem. Especially if they are already interacting with customers who are drinking.

[Hugh_Lebowski]

8. Not exactly sure why the distinction of actually bringing drinks to the table

is pertinent to question of whether or not the kids could be harassed by drunk patrons. If the kids work at the place where alcohol is served, in any front-of-the-house capacity, such as host, expediter, or busser (being actual waitstaff would be very rare at that age) ... that risk is the same. It's in no way dependent on the kid being the one who carries the drinks to the table, as someone else would be doing it ... if they did not.

If potential harassment is the real reason for the objection then don't let kids that young work in the dining/drinking area when/where alcohol is served, period. That simple to me really.

[Diamond_Dog]

26. Hugh, I think the worry is

that servers in a bar setting, who are predominantly female, might feel as though they have to curry favor with customers in order to get good tips. And that a 14 year old may be taken advantage of by older males who have maybe had a drink too many. “Smile and turn around, honey, and I’ll give you a nice big tip”, etc. What man would want his 14 year old daughter putting up with that every night?

I remember working in a department store as a 16 year old and even there, male customers would leer and make crude comments. It’s something almost all young girls endure that many men don’t realize. And, adding alcohol to the mix IMO is just not a good idea.

My two cents …. 😉

[Hugh_Lebowski]

27. Fair enough, but I rather doubt any place is going to employ a 14 year old as an actual server

As in the main point of contact, the one taking the orders, cashing them out, etc.

They're going to be hosts, expediters, and bussers (they cannot be bartenders). The 'negative risks' for them are basically exactly the same whether they swing by the bar and deliver the drinks ... or not. Same drunk people, same exposure to drinking lifestyle, etc.

I'm more arguing that if you think 14-15 is too young to bring a drink out with a meal, then it's actually logical to conclude they're also too young to work front-of-house in a place that serves alcohol, period.

[Diamond_Dog]

29. Of course

It depends on the individual place of business, clientele, maturity of the 14 year old, things like that.Maybe it would work out in some situations. I have a feeling passing a law allowing 14 year olds to serve hard liquor will just encourage some business owners who are desperate for help to put them in a server job or cover shifts.

I’m sorry but overall, I think it’s just a bad idea.

[Hugh_Lebowski]

30. And I'm saying the arguments for not letting them bring alcohol to the table (e.g. serving)

Are the same as the arguments to not let them work in that environment period. Because if they're not bringing it, someone else will be.

14-15 yo's in restaurants that serve liquor should probably strictly have back of the house jobs.

[Diamond_Dog]

32. I agree.

But this Wisconsin bill says let them serve it. And that to me is a bad idea.

[Hugh_Lebowski]

33. And then again you'd have 15 year olds that are like holy shit I can buy so much stuff I want

and save money for the very expensive education I want that my drunk daddy can't afford (or my foster family isn't paying a dime for), just by wearing a black or pink bra and letting it show a bit when I bend over to put the drinks down, it's worth it for a few leers and off-color comments once or twice a week ... I make double what I'd make at McDonalds!

This is one of life's many conundrums to me when it comes to questions of this nature.

[Diamond_Dog]

34. Well I suppose that's true

A girl like that would be playing with fire, though …

[ExWhoDoesntCare]

48. Most pubs and nightclubs do not have hosts and expediters.

I was a cocktail waitress for a brief time back in the old days, and here's what I remember of the experience:

Nightclubs had someone at the door to check IDs. That is *not* a job for a 14 y/o, for obvious reasons. Which is why having 14 y/o servers asking people for IDs is also a bad idea at establishments which serve all ages, but also have alcohol available. Some of the tensest moments I ever had as a server were the alcohol ID checks, and I was an adult. I can't imagine a 14 y/o facing some of the people I had to refuse (or cut off).

At regular pubs without servers, bartenders did the ID checks.

I don't know about now, but back in the old days, we servers did the vast majority of the bussing, with some help from the barback when things got more hectic than usual. Only the biggest and busiest establishments had bussers.

Most pubs didn't have expediters, and they'd give you a strange look if you even said the word to them. The busiest pubs had the owner/manager keeping the orders straight and flowing smoothly on busier nights, but, most of the time, servers placed the orders with bartenders directly, first come, first serve.

Changes for the better: The last time I was in a fairly busy pub, the servers didn't have to leave the main floor to place the orders--just send it over a computer tucked in a cubby nearby, and the bartender would get to it when it came up. The pub must have had some kind of signal system to let servers know when orders were ready, because they somehow knew when to pick them up. No expediters necessary, and managers probably aren't as necessary at peak times, either.

I envy these modern servers the steps they're saving by not having to go to the bartender to place the order then going back to picking up orders, too. I bet their feet don't hurt nearly as much as mine did.

[Hugh_Lebowski]

57. Maybe I have this all wrong but I'm operating under the assumption that nobody is talking

about 14 year old's working in pubs (aka bars in US parlance), and certainly not acting as someone who 'cards' people.

If I have that wrong I apologize but I don't believe that's what we're talking about here.

I think what's under discussion is that in a normal all-ages restaurant setting, where there happens to be alcohol served, that someone 14 y.o. and above is allowed to swing by the bar, pick up the drinks ordered by the actual waiter/waitress (or pull beer bottles out of a fridge if it's like Denny's or something) and put them on the table for the customer, in support of the server.

Which they currently cannot, AFAIK.

Again I could be wrong but I really don't think anyone is talking about 14 y.o. children taking on full-on BAR jobs.

I'm reckoning this is something more akin to allowing the 16 yo girl that works at the Walgreen's down the street from me, who has to call on someone 18 or older to sell me a 6-pack ... being allowed to do the transaction herself. Not making 14 y.o. girls the 'bouncers' at a nightclub.

'Serving' is a VERY general term that simply means 'putting it on the table'.

Again, someone correct me if I'm wrong

[LiberalFighter]

9. I do genealogy which involves Censuses for resources.

I have yet to find anyone under the age of 18 showing up as a bartender or a restaurant worker in any Census from 1900 - 1950.

[ExWhoDoesntCare]

49. I think if you'd looked at some of the mom & pop outfits

You'd find their kids working at the family pub or restaurant. They may not have been "official" employees, but they were definitely helping out.

My paternal grandfather owned a piano bar & restaurant. My useless father had to work there summers and weekends, from quite a young age, busing tables, light janitorial work, running backbar, and so on. Sometimes he even had to pitch in on a school night if an employee quit or didn't show up.

He turned 14 in 1950, and he was definitely "pitching in" well before that, but never on the payroll. If Pop needed help with the family business, you didn't argue. You did what he told you to do, and no aggro. If you had enough energy to argue, you had enough to push a broom.

[LiberalFighter]

62. None of those I spotted had the parent running a restaurant or bar with kids.

[PSPS]

10. LOL. "give them valuable work experience" - I think I've recently heard that elsewhere.

[Snooper9]

52. I got paid 7.5 cents a bail at 13 to throw hay on a wagon

This was close to Herculaneum Missouri circa 88', 89'

Pretty good work experience and I was one of the first ones to get the gun

[Chainfire]

11. What could go wrong with children serving alcohol to drunks?

Note to owner: If you pay them, they will come...

[tulipsandroses]

12. Gee, if only there was a pool of people who really really wanted to work!

Instead of wanting more parents to allow their kids to work, we could just give adult migrants work permits.

I would not allow my 14 year old to work in a bar.

On top of that, we are just going backwards. I got a work permit at 14. My parents had to approve it. The hours I was allowed to work were limited. Don’t remember, but it increased after 16. Also was not allowed to work more than X hours and until X PM. I worked at Burger King and they were really strict about it. I remember wanting to work more hours to buy something and it was not allowed. Rightfully so. Rolling back these protections, is not a good thing.

[viva la]

13. I did some cocktail waitressing and bartending at 18

(the state allowed that back then)...
And believe you me, we were all stealing sips as we poured. And then after the shift we'd stay and party.
It was a quick route to alcoholism. I quit after a few months, but would a 14-year-old be able to make that kind of decision?

[former9thward]

35. Should 14 year olds be banned at restaurant work?

[ExWhoDoesntCare]

42. I'm for banning anyone under 16 from working at any job

Why aren't you?

[GenThePerservering]

45. ::shrugs::

because not everyone agreees?

[former9thward]

46. Because building a work ethic is more important than playing non stop video games.

There is a reason our military has determined 77% of present day youth are unfit for service.

https://www.military.com/daily-news/2022/09/28/new-pentagon-study-shows-77-of-young-americans-are-ineligible-military-service.html

[viva la]

50. It is physically risky work.

Burns, cuts, overheating. I remember getting stabbed by a fork tine through my thumbnail. The doctor had to remove the whole nail, and put me on an antibiotic. It sounds minor, but it was exquisitely painful, and I was off work 2 weeks. No pay, of course.

It's not like working construction, but a restaurant has a lot of hazards and no union protections.

Not to mention the constant sexual harassment from bosses and customers.

[Dulcinea]

14. They'll work for what employers are willing to pay.

Adults want a living wage. Follow the money.

[elocs]

15. Wisconsin: the state that wanted to prosecute the Slenderman girls who were 12

at the time they attacked another girl in 2014 on orders from the cartoon character "Slenderman".

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/jul/27/slender-man-stabbing-wisconsin-girls-tried-as-adults-appeals-court
"A Wisconsin state appeals court ruled on Wednesday that two girls accused of trying to kill their classmate in an attempt to please the fictional horror character Slender Man should be tried as adults.

The girls were 12 years old in 2014 when, investigators say, they lured 12-year-old Payton Leutner to a park in Waukesha, about 20 miles west of Milwaukee, and stabbed her 19 times.
In a pair of rulings on Wednesday, the second district appeals court affirmed a lower court’s determination that it was reasonable to try both girls as adults. Citing the ruling last year, the appeals court said if the girls were found guilty in the juvenile system they would be released at age 18 with no supervision or mental health treatment. The girls, both 14 years old, could appeal against the rulings to the Wisconsin supreme court."

This was at the time when Republicans had solid control of the state.

[Mad_Machine76]

16. The one thing that I am upset is missing from these kind of discussions about immigrants

is that, if we need them so badly to help with our economy (and I'm not suggesting we don't or shouldn't), why aren't we making it easier for them to become citizens and if we're not, aren't we basically admitting that we're exploiting them so that they can do jobs the everybody else supposedly "doesn't want to do"?

[patphil]

17. The biggest problem I have with this is that a 14 year old lacks the emotional maturity needed.

Serving drinks in a bar isn't like serving hamburgers at a fast food outlet. There's a lot of potential for anger and violence in bars where customers have taken in a bit too much alcohol.
The article talks about needing a bartender. Putting a 14 year old in that job is dangerous to the kid, and the bar owner.
Imagine a kid that young telling a customer he's had too much to drink and he isn't going to serve him. That's a confrontation I wouldn't want my 14 year old to be involved in.
If the kid knuckle's under and serves him, the bar could be liable if the customer goes out into his car and gets into an accident. If he doesn't there he could have a violent confrontation.
Lets face it, a 14 year old is not mature enough to handle this job.

[former9thward]

36. Your story is not what is happening.

14 year olds could bring drinks to the customer. They would not be making drink orders. They would not be deciding or telling customers they had too much. They would not be asking customers if they wanted another drink. They would simply be bringing a drink that a customer ordered from the bar area to where the customer was at a table.

[patphil]

43. Ok, but the original post implied the owner of the bar needed a bartender.

Sounded nuts, but then stranger things are happening.

[Snooper9]

54. If you're at a table, not at the bar

It takes a little longer to get your drink. Really don't think they won't say, yep, two more Miller Lights and another round of Fireball shots?

[viva la]

51. Sexual assault also.

Managers groping, customers grabbing.... stalkers too. The manager won't turn away a paying regular.

[Snooper9]

53. +4000

speed read of the thread and this is the correct response...

[Hugh_Lebowski]

58. I really don't think 14 y.o. bartenders is what's being contemplated here

I believe we're talking about young expediters, working in restaurants that serve alcohol, being allowed to physically carry drinks from the bar (or grab beer bottles from the fridge) and put them on the table for the customer.

If you can present something to the contrary, I'm keen to learn. But I think you're making some huge assumptions about what these proposed laws would actually allow

[patphil]

64. The original post doesn't make that clear, but the full article does.

[Hugh_Lebowski]

65. I very often end up having takes that are mistaken because I didn't read the whole article

I didn't even do so this time, but it happens I'd read about these proposals in the past and was assuming I recollected correctly.

Nowadays so many headlines/articles are effectively click-bait, and the most extreme spinning happens at the top of the article to engage you and keep you reading (i.e. viewing ads). Then you read down a ways and you're like ... this really isn't the way it you made it sound in the beginning!

So I totally get it

[Igel]

18. Not a fan.

And this is TX, where legal drinking age for unaccompanied people in public is 21, but servers must just be 18.

(Meanwhile, if I had taken my 6-year-old son out for a beer or a round of tequila years ago and I ordered, took possession of two beers or shots and then slid one over to him ... Absolutely legal. Weirdly, if my kid had raided the tequila when he was 12 and home alone, that would have been a violation--if I had handed it to him, legal. Sometimes TX law is ... interesting.)

[librechik]

19. they want slavery back SO BAD

with themselves as fat potentates!

Wait, they have that already. They just want to harden it into law and make everybody else comply.

[mzmolly]

20. Yet, they shouldn't vote until they're 25.

Do I have that right?

[LiberalArkie]

21. They are probably wanting better looking people instead of the obese and meth-addled ones

[redqueen]

23. Republicans' shameless enthusiasm for child labor is disgusting nt

[former9thward]

37. This is about alcohol not child labor.

14 year old can work at a restaurant already and no one is debating that. Republicans or Democrats.

[moondust]

25. 10-year-olds working unpaid until 2 a.m. at McDonald's.

May 3, 2023

More than 300 children, including two 10-year-olds, were found working at McDonald's restaurants across Kentucky and several other states in violation of federal labor laws, the Labor Department said Tuesday.

In one case, investigators found two 10-year-olds were working unpaid and until as late as 2 a.m. at one McDonald's restaurant in Louisville operated by Bauer Food LLC, which is based in Louisville, the department said in a news release.

The two children prepared and distributed food orders, cleaned the store, worked at the drive-thru window and operated a register, investigators found. One of them was also allowed to operate a deep fryer, a task prohibited for workers under the age of 16 under federal law.

Most of the restaurants, 45 of the 62, were in Kentucky, according to data released by the department.
~
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/10-year-olds-hundreds-children-found-working-mcdonalds-rcna82583

[Red Mountain]

28. The REAL groomers at work

[Iggo]

31. Can a 14 year old be sued for over serving?

[former9thward]

38. First, employees are not sued.

Businesses are. Second, the 14 year old is not taking orders or deciding whether a customer should have a drink.

[Hekate]

40. 14?! Isn't jail-bait even a thing anymore?

[ExWhoDoesntCare]

41. Nobody wants to work for you because you're a cheap wanker

Pay people, treat them right, and they'll line up to work for you.

[GenThePerservering]

44. I have no problems with kids working limited hours

I started working at 14 doing alterations and short-order cook at 15, both times hours that worked with my schoolwork.

But not serving alcohol, no - for the biggest reason that there are too many male predators. And from my experience, it makes a big difference if you're bringing food or if you're bringing alcoholic drinks. Back of house, sure - limited hours.

As for this "“Not as many kids work as much as they used to. Back in our day, more kids were needed, and more parents made their kids work.”

That's bullshit. I REMEMBER "back in our day".

[Initech]

55. Should children be working restaurant jobs for shit wages and no benefits serving alcohol?

The correct answer to that question is go fuck yourselves. Fuck the MAGAs.

[Brainfodder]

56. Exploitation for profit motive.

If you need cheap labor, IMHO your business is not needed.

Over priced booze and drunk driving is still a thing.
Be weird if there was some type of connection?

Mass shooters are now common and guns are readily available.
Guns are dangerous, be weird if there was some type of connection?

[Celerity]

60. Movie about that town (Freedom, WI) is coming later this year.

Freedom, Wisconsin

https://m.imdb.com/title/tt16420072/

Storyline

Freedom, WI is a coming-of-age story about a young woman who has experienced a great deal of loss during her lifetime while growing up in small-town Wisconsin. As she enters adulthood still grappling with her grief, she meets and forms a tentative bond with a struggling writer from the big city who disrupts her routine and becomes a catalyst for her journey to self-discovery. Written and directed by a former Wisconsinite who will always call the Badger State her home, Freedom, WI is a darkly-comedic love letter to the unique spirit, scenic landscape, and timeless beauty of Wisconsin.

[bronxiteforever]

63. Kick

A serf-supporting and self-respecting democracy can plead no justification for the existence of child labor, no economic reason for chiseling workers' wages or stretching workers' hours.

Franklin D. Roosevelt

[Torchlight]

66. Creepiness has leading indicators.

I think this is one of them.

I'd guess there's a pretty big overlap between legislators pushing for this type of bill and those pushing laxer age-of-consent laws.