What if Donald Trump's conspiracy is even more sinister than we suspected?

[dalton99a]

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/what-if-donald-trump-s-conspiracy-is-even-more-sinister-than-we-suspected-opinion/ar-AA1fECoo

What if Donald Trump's conspiracy is even more sinister than we suspected?
Story by Thom Hartmann

There was, it increasingly appears, a conspiracy involving some in the most senior levels of the Trump administration to end American representative democracy and replace it with a strongman oligarchy along the lines of Putin’s Russia or Orbán’s Hungary.

This would be followed, after the January 20th swearing-in of Trump for a second term, by a complete realignment of US foreign policy away from NATO and the EU and toward oligarchic, autocratic nations like Russia, China, Saudi Arabia, and Hungary.

As the possibility of this traitorous plan becomes increasingly visible, the GOP, after a frantic two weeks of not knowing what to say or do, has finally settled on a response to Trump’s theft of classified information: “Hillary did the same thing, and she didn’t go to jail!” I heard the comparison made at least a half-dozen times this weekend on various political shows.

(For the record, Hillary did nothing whatsoever even remotely close to Trump’s theft of classified materials. Among the 50,000+ personal emails on her server, Republicans found three that had markings indicating they were at one time classified, none had to do with espionage or compromised national security in any way, and all three were clearly there because she had replied to somebody using the wrong account in error. But we can expect this to be the distraction line coming from Trump and the GOP all this week.)

So, what did Trump do, and why did he do it? And who helped him and why?

...

[FarPoint]

1. It is bigger than bigley..in my opinion

It has roots with Putin. See, I look for who has the most to gain from the destruction of the USA/ Democracy...I firt think, Putin does..

[DENVERPOPS]

29. We will come to know a lot

unless Trump gets back in power, or some other RightWing wantabe dictator.

Years ago, I was having a political discussion with my college kid and I said we probably don't know one thousandth of what is going on.
He laughed and said: "Yea, and a a ton of it we probably DON'T WANT TO KNOW".......

For instance, there has been literally nothing about Ivanka and Jared's massive grifting for the entire time Trump was in the white house.
Just imagine how much those two made as "middle men" profiting from all the PPE they took control of during the pandemic and doled out to the highest bidders and Republican States.........

[Farmer-Rick]

76. This is why I don't believe Putin is the biggest winner

It is the current American filthy-rich who would make the most from the destruction of American democracy. They would be openly oligarchs. They could flout their power without worries of repurcusions to their wealth extraction systems, the corporation. They could just order us to give them our money without having to trick or con us

They would be able to run America like a kingdom with no worries about laws, rules or morals. They would have no constraints and could be as abusive as possible. No fear of sex trafficking or pedophilia charges. No fear of courts going after them for theft and cons. The Walton's won't have to hide driving drunk and murdering people. The Kochs won't have to worry about those global warming protests and efforts to save human habitat. Private equity firm CEO Leon Black, and Les Wexner of Bath and Bodyworks won't have to worry about didling little girls. And Kissinger can continue to be free of war crimes.

So, I guess Putin would benefit from the destruction of American democracy but our own American made filthy-rich would be the biggest winners.

[geardaddy]

78. Excellent insight

I believe you are correct.

[Artcatt]

77. Some of us want to know ALL of what's going on. Every pus-filled bit of it.

[Deuxcents]

2. I'm of the opinion we don't know the half of it

And I wonder if we ever will. What we do know is shocking but I think most of it will be taken to the graves by the people who wanted to destroy our country and set up authoritarian rule.

[wnylib]

9. It might come out. Most of the parties involved will not be

charged or prosecuted, but after the known ones today are convicted, the whole story needs to be told. Preferably, that would be done in books and films. But publishers and filmmakers would back away from such a project out of fear of being sued by people depicted in the wider story.

However, one way around that would be to simply lay out the documented facts, without accusations, and ke5 people decide for themselves.

[onetexan]

26. THIS!!☝️

[lindysalsagal]

48. This is probably only the tip of the iceberg.

[rubbersole]

57. And I bet Leonard Leo has the tip of that iceberg up his ass.

His network of 'donors' constitute the real deep state.

[lame54]

59. Your distant relatives will

[Solly Mack]

3. K&R

I think there's a lot that we don't know - yet.

[gab13by13]

4. Thank you for posting this,

I cited it twice here today, but you did it properly.

Everyone should read this article, it lays everything out in a manner that makes perfect sense.

Trump worked with foreign governments, the military was involved, Christopher Miller and Michael Flynn's brother, the Secret Service was involved.

There was a lot of deleted, erased, trashed. communications from J6, not just the Secret service deletions.

This article should be an hour documentary on TV, it is breathtaking and scary as hell.

Trump planned to get out of NATO and join forces with China, Russia, and Saudi Arabia, also with Egypt and Hungary.

This is still the Magat plan.

[Grasswire2]

21. But there's also Jared's alliance with MBS at the same time.

The two of them reportedly wanted to re-shape the world map, and plotted together.

And the Ivanka-Jared connection to Israel. How does that fit in?

Scary on many fronts.

[gab13by13]

31. The article says that SA

could have funneled money to Trump also without being detected. Trump had possession of a lot of valuable top secret documents.

[patphil]

5. I think we need to look beyond Trump to the Federalist Society.

They're the puppet masters; pulling strings behind the scene.

[gab13by13]

15. Well, Leonard Leo is being investigated.

[Kid Berwyn]

6. Investigative Journalist Rule of Thumb

Last edited Wed Aug 23, 2023, 01:49 PM - Edit history (1)

Multiply what we know by ten for an idea of scale.

For example, Ginni Thomas and all her rabid Reich fiends.

[rurallib]

7. My opinion - Trump was just feeling around on how to install himself

as the strongman leader in his first term. Were he not so stupid and vain he would have come up with a strategy besides his ridiculously insane stolen election BS.

The concern is that given another shot at the White House he will turn the election into a farce. If he does somehow get placed in the presidency, he and his criminal cronies will simple run over the government and put conies in all major positions.

While Trump has been on the sidelines, he and his henchmen have been working on strategies to end democracy.

[gab13by13]

16. It wasn't that insane, it almost worked,

read the Alternet article. Trump had help from foreign countries, still does, the insurrection is ongoing.

[rurallib]

30. Sorry - I meant that it seems insane to normal folks

Your right - it wasn't insane and with just a few changes it would have worked.

[lastlib]

39. Project 2025........

Halloween too far away for you? Google "Project 2025 Heritage Foundation" for a REAL scare! Those bastards need to be charged with seditious conspiracy YESTERDAY!

[Delphinus]

69. Oh,

I don't know if I'm ready to do that ...

[lastlib]

72. It is TERRIFYING. It outlines a plan of virtual repuglikan dictatorship.

It should give all the motivation anyone needs to fight these bastards to the death, if need be.

IT IS ABSOLUTELY VITAL THAT WE DEFEAT THEM IN 2024!!

[milestogo]

8. His followers will still love him.

Kind of like the women who pursue romance with convicted serial killers and rapists.

[AKwannabe]

10. I feel like I have to make a move to get out of this country

Before tRump steals another residency in the WH.
No decent country will take shithole Americans if that happens again.

[Mister Ed]

25. No place on Earth will be safe...

...if the U.S., with all its military might, should turn to fascism and align itself with the dictatorships of the world.

[Trueblue Texan]

33. EXACTLY!!!!!nt

[2naSalit]

71. Silver lining...

The biospheric collapse will happen sooner if they take control in which case we'll all be dead much sooner.

[moniss]

65. I was checking the last time

and it is not as easy as it used to be to leave here and be welcomed long term in other developed countries. If we want to go long term most are requiring proof of finances/job/living arrangement etc. Short term you can still get into most places for a few months. In order to renew your "visiting visa" you have to go someplace else and let some time pass. Some places are a bit more lenient. Here's a couple of sites that have more info and also about how to buy your way in. I have no hope of that but there are other sites like this that also have more info.


https://www.globalcitizensolutions.com/easiest-countries-to-get-citizenship/
https://www.internationalcitizens.com/citizenship/

[flying_wahini]

75. I'm checking on it, too.

I think we would be remiss if we didn’t.

[Blue Owl]

11. Wouldn't surprise me one bit -- there is no limit to his egomaniacal depravity

[LakeArenal]

12. I think we only know the tip of the hamberder.

[erronis]

13. It's a mistake to call it "Trump's conspiracy" - he was a imbecile puppet controlled

by others. The fact that he was so self-image motivated and lacking in human empathy made it easy for him to be manipulated.

Who was (and is still) behind this? Obviously the extremely wealthy in the US and western world would like to have financial controls removed. Obviously other nations would like to see the US democracy in shambles. Are they connected?

How deep does this rot permeate the current US governments - and this is federal, state, and local?

[Initech]

14. The entire GOP is in on it. They've been building their brand of fascism since Reagan.

That's my conclusion anyways.

[gab13by13]

18. They are a big part of it,

foreign governments are involved, the MSM is owned and managed by right wing oligarchs, the Federalist Society, the Heritage Foundation, a lot of corporate America like the fossil fuel industry, the Koch Brothers funded a lot of fascists, the Mercers.

I believe that Elon Musk is a big part of the conspiracy now.

[czarjak]

17. "2016 could be our last election." He meant it.

Thanks, Vlad.

[Botany]

19. Trump fired the Sec. of Defense (Esper) after the 2000 elction and installed Cristopher Miller

[TheRealNorth]

27. I remember him doing that too and raising the alarm....

TFG also had the opportunity to put appoint the general for Northern Command (North America) in Aug 2020. But that appointment was a little less fishy as those reassignments seem to happen every 2-3 years.

[DENVERPOPS]

79. Hey Botany

Do you know where I can find a less blurred copy of this document?????????

Thx

[Evolve Dammit]

20. And is Tuberville holding up 90 positions in hope of the Orange One's return?? It ain't over.

[Grasswire2]

24. and why is McConnell allowing that to happen? nt

[gab13by13]

34. My guess is death threats

I fought against powerful people who wanted to frack for gas and strip coal on our pristine watershed. I was just a council member in a small borough and got death threats.

[murielm99]

36. I know about the death threats.

In the past, I have written letters to the editor and received death threats after those letters were published. They were mild letters, too, written in respectful language. The death threats came through the mail and were never signed.

[Evolve Dammit]

37. that really sucks. The contaminants introduced in fracking is so short-sighted. Water is the most

important resource we have IMO. To poison your own water is beyond foolish. Good for you standing up.

[brakester]

63. Atom bombs and fracking

Google it. Early on, some nutcases experimented in Colorado using atom bombs to see if they could be used in fracking.

Don't believe it? Look it up.

It's a comparable attitude to tfg and his minions. Sociopaths who only value money and power. It's a horrific example of uncontrolled government power.

"Project Rulison, named after the rural community of Rulison, Colorado, was an underground 40-kiloton nuclear test project in the United States on September 10, 1969, about 8 miles (13 km) SE of the town of Grand Valley, Colorado (now named Parachute, Colorado) in Garfield County."

Also Google "Project Gasbuggy tests Nuclear “Fracking”

[Evolve Dammit]

83. Rachel Maddow had a portion of "Blowout" that talked about that. Good book

[Evolve Dammit]

35. And why did the GOP contingent go to Moscow on July 4 a few years back?

[LastLiberal in PalmSprings]

68. I hadn't thought of it that way.

Even if the senate caved to his asinine demands he's already set forward his next reason for blocking the appointments of senior commanders: there are too many generals and admirals in the military.

Last week, the GOP senator said on a conservative podcast, “I don’t care if we promote anybody to be honest. We got 44 four-star generals right now. We only had seven during WWII, so I think we’re a little overloaded to begin with.” In other words, Tuberville tweaked his original position, justifying his blockade by suggesting there’s no real need to promote these decorated military officers, even as officials in his own country’s armed forces issued warnings about the adverse consequences the Alabaman has created.

Senate Armed Services Committee Chairman Jack Reed called Tuberville’s comments “a smoking gun confession.” This week, the proverbial gun fired a second shot: Sen. Tuberville takes a new approach to defending his hold on military nominations by emailing out this thread personally attacking individual military officers up for promotion. His office just blasted out this thread highlighting criticisms of the nominees themselves.

Way to go, Coach!!!

[Evolve Dammit]

84. He's a real piece of work. GOP is so anti-American it is really hard to tolerate, nt

[malthaussen]

22. That would be impossible.

Pundits and apologists might try to soft-peddle it, but most people I know are convinced that the coup was a coup involving multiple members of Congress and law enforcement.

-- Mal

[Lonestarblue]

23. Interesting read. And if true we need to be prepared for foreign interference in the 2024 election.

Both MBS and Putin have clear desires to see Trump as president again. And if Republicans are able to manipulate votes (perhaps with the help of Russian hackers) to install Trump as president, he will then consolidate his hold on power by firing anyone competent in the federal government, and Tuberville’s hold on political appointments will be a lot more sinister.

Speaking of sinister, a news break just flashed on my screen that a plane has crashed with the Wagner chief believed to be on board. Putin getting even.

[edbermac]

28. "Follow the money."

At first, everybody thought Watergate was just a “third-rate burglary”

[MOMFUDSKI]

32. Nothing can be discounted.

Orange guy has been a rotter from birth.

[Grins]

38. After being in the Army for a year...

…I was promoted to 1LT. At the O-Club celebration I was asked what I had learned my first year.

I thought, and came up with:

“When the Army says something is great, it’s only good.
If the Army says it’s bad - it is FAR WORSE!!!”

Change “Army” to “government” and it’s still true!

There is so much about the Trump administration and the GOP we don’t know, but whatever it is - it’s FAR worse!

[Sky Jewels]

40. That IS what I suspected!

It seemed pretty fucking obvious.

[malaise]

41. K & R

for truth

[Bmoboy]

42. There have been other treasonous plots

In the Depression rich and powerful men plotted to seize power. They went to a senior general who turned them in. None of them were arrested. One of them became a US Senator, Prescott Bush, the father of George HW and George W.

It goes on and on and the rich and powerful get away with it so the system that sustains them keeps rolling on.

Read "War is a Racket" by the general that turned them in - Smedley Butler.

[SKKY]

43. There's no doubt it is. I suspect there will be several "What the actual f@$k?" moments...

...we have yet to hear about.

[bucolic_frolic]

44. We're finally opening the crypt. Where did all the money come from, and who put it there?

[TomWilm]

45. Might be... but US foreign policy was largely unchanged during Trump

Biden is such a big change in his very smooth and polite approach to the rest of the Western world. Trump was bullying and shouting, but behind all his theatrics he was largely just following the "normal" behavior of the US foreign ministry.

- Noam Chomsky: Biden’s foreign policy is largely indistinguishable from Trump’s.

- In foreign relations, Trump shifts rhetoric but policy largely unchanged.

- U.S. foreign policy under Joe Biden will not be greatly different from that of the past.

... Trump did a lot more damage than just rhetoric domestically, especially his attacks on the democratic institutions, but for everyone outside the US it is more like same same, sorry to say!

[LymphocyteLover]

47. I wouldn't trust Chomsky on this.

Also Congress and the "Deep State" was able to maintain some sense normalcy in the 4 years he was there, despite his efforts to destroy it

[uponit7771]

64. +1

[bagimin]

52. I always thought Chomsky was smart..

wow.

[LymphocyteLover]

46. I have no doubt. He was sent to destroy American democracy

[Mr. Sparkle]

49. also did Russia play a role in the Jan 6th insurrection

I cant imagine Putin sitting that one out

[Botany]

50. Did Russia play a role in the Jan 6th insurrection?

Yes

https://www.splcenter.org/hatewatch/2021/09/23/jan-6-video-suggests-russia-insider-entered-capitol

[uponit7771]

66. +1

[relayerbob]

51. Was this ever even in doubt?

My only surprise was that he didn’t do it in his first Administration

[llashram]

53. damn!

[wiggs]

54. Thom and Seth have been pointing out the global objectives of a handful of countries toward

dictators and EVEN MORE consolidation of wealth and power. Oligarchs everywhere had and have an interest in US democracy falling even further.

Was gives the plan strength is that most of the US don't realize this is happening.

[Bev54]

58. Yes, I am sure I read this piece a day or more ago by Thom Hartmann, maybe on his substack

I have no doubt there is so much more of this than we know and I am not sure we will know in the coming years or ever. There is still the question of whether Trump provided both Russia and Saudi with the list of CIA agents and informants, after so many of them were killed or disappeared. He asked for and received a list of them all, and within months it became noticeable that people were disappearing. I so want Smith to have info on that and charge him.

[creeksneakers2]

55. Wild speculation with little to support it.

Its essential that those going after Trump remain credible. Wild accusations without proof undermine that credibility. There are plenty of things Trump did wrong cited here. None of them prove a plot to establish an oligarchy.

This is the type of attack I expect to come from RW media, not the left If it gets any momentum the RW would be overjoyed to use this attack against responsible people who wish to hold Trump accountable for acts that can be proven. There is already enough to send Trump to prison for the rest of his life. More is not needed.

[Auggie]

56. Why did he do it? Money. And power.

[Questions questions]

60. No surprise

I expect MAGA strikes and parades protesting how bad Biden is and how they're not free all while carrying their AR14's, fullmags, with their faces covered cuz they're tough.



Be on the lookout.

[ByebyeTrump]

61. Low road

Great post Dalton99! Hartmann is one of the best.

[drmeow]

62. From a party

which was willing and ready (even if there isn't actually conclusive and definitive evidence that they did) to negotiate with Iran to DELAY freeing American citizens if it would increase the likelihood that they would gain power - this is not in any way, shape, or form more sinister than I thought it was. I have, for a long time, thought that the Republican party wanted one party rule and they don't care how many lives they destroy to achieve it. While I don't believe 9/11 was an inside job, I do believe they didn't try to prevent it because they figured "how bad can it be, and it might help our boy George."

The only reason we have term limits for President is because it wasn't a fascist who kept winning for 4 terms in a row. If it had been Reagan, they would have fought against term limits with everything in their arsenal.

Since Nixon they have considered democracy to be an inconvenient barrier to their perceived supremacy.

I consider Mitch McConnell to be the biggest traitor to the US every in our history. If I could have ultimate power for one day, I'd have him executed.

And the corporate media helps and supports them every f**king day.

[moniss]

67. I have also said all along

that the idea that he just randomly grabbed some classified files and squirreled them away in a box or two is nonsense. There was a definite plan for the kinds of things to take. There is no way he had the knowledge of what to take but some group of people did. They had to be part of the WH staff/Agency personnel etc. and there had to be an overall plan for the use of the documents. Who all is lining this up and paying for it all? We have major security issues because it appears there is a rogue element within the Secret Service that is protecting/hiding all of this. The attempt to delete all texts, a crooked IG issuing a cover up job of a report, the SS detail that he has assigned to him must surely see these foreign characters going in and out but they appear to be completely tight-lipped. I'm sure they are crapping their pants now that Jack Smith indicated he has those supposedly erased texts. It could well be that behind the scenes there is/has been an ongoing battle between the SS and the NSA. The NSA is most likely where Smith went to for the texts. Although it sure would be interesting if the source of obtaining those texts was a friendly foreign government. Either way Smith has them and Wolf and Cuccinelli thought they had this under control but can now crap their pants right along with the field agents.

Remember that in 2019 and 2020 McAleenan, Wolf and Cuccinelli were all part of that illegal "acting Secretary" crap at DHS after Nielsen resigned. They violated the legal succession process for who could be "acting" and they certainly didn't want to go through a Senate confirmation process. Even though the GAO and the Federal Courts found them to be illegally in office they continued in their positions for months afterward. It was during this time that a DHS whistleblower also came forward and complained that Wolf had issued orders to the staff not to issue reports on Russian interference in the US and the election of 2020. That was in a WSJ article from September of 2020. It's behind their paywall. So for over a year and a half you had 3 people with in positions of top authority illegally and with unfettered access to classified documents. Even once the courts issued their decisions that they were illegally in those positions they defied the courts and stayed on for months. What were they doing and for whom?

[dalton99a]

73. +1. One must assume the Trump gang stole/copied/sold many other classified documents while he was

in the White House

[moniss]

82. Absolutely

and early on they played games with the process of people getting security clearances. Jared never qualified under the guidelines for example but was given clearance by demand.

[liberal N proud]

70. When he took office in 2016 he planned to never leave

I suspect the whole thing was laid out in 2016 or shortly thereafter. It was developed to be implemented in 4 or 8 years, whichever was necessary.

We will never know how really sinister it was.

[lambchopp59]

74. this reminds me

Wasn't it GWB ordered presidential records be eternally sealed with only family exceptions?
I've already run out of barf bags with the obvious corruption masked as "patriotism" of all the GOP dipshits.
I suspect someday when/if the lid undeniably blows off TFG's term it will make even many of the MAGA's join us in the emesis chorus.

[Marthe48]

80. traitor couldn't operate a casino

so if there is a large plot/operation to overthrow the U.S., and I have no reason to believe there isn't, we need to find and accuse the traitors behind the traitors. He is just their pretty mouth.

[dlk]

81. For every rat you see

There are fifty you don’t.