Men, we like you, Buddies!

[gulliver]

I think a lot of times you have to tell people things directly. That's especially important if there is ambiguous "subtext."

I don't think it's silly to think that a lot of working- and middle-class men simply need to hear that the Dem Party likes them. Or at least they need to hear it more often. We can't let some J-random, off-the-wall someone talk about "toxic masculinity," for example, and then be silent with the obvious, necessary, counterbalancing, "but most Dems think that's dumb and ignore the people who say it." If we don't say that, out loud, we leave the all-important "Dem personality subtext" to whoever self-elects themselves to be a rude loudmouth.

We could get droves of men, good, solid people, back to voting for bread-and-butter issues with the Dems with a fairly simple appeal, imo. "Tell him about it!" (Apologies to Mr. Billy Joel.)

[NoRethugFriends]

1. OH. Then there is no toxic masculinity?

If they're good solid people, they aren't Trump/DeSantis voters eevr.

[gulliver]

3. Not really

It's just not good phraseology and not a workable label for purposes of critical thinking. It's the joke that always has to be explained, so it's not a good joke.

And, gotta disagree with you, it's very, very easy to lose good, solid people to Trump or DeSantis, unfortunately. That's the point of the OP. Misunderstanding is a thing.

[Sky Jewels]

4. Yeah, all those "good, solid people" who aren't bothered by

abject racism, misogyny and fascism and think Trump and DeSantis are good options to vote for.

Give us a break!

[gulliver]

6. Well, we can skip those people, of course

But that's not all that many people. Most people don't work on that level or hold those views.

[Sky Jewels]

8. People in danger of being "lost" to Trump and DeSantis

are not good, solid people. That's an oxymoron. If they were good, solid people, they would never consider voting for fascists in the first place. That's my point.

[Beastly Boy]

10. I believe the OP is bringing attention to people being lost to

not voting, or voting for third party candidates. Many of them are good solid people.

The same is probably true of people with narrowly focused sets of good solid issues who are reluctant to get distracted from these issees for the sake of building consensus among Democrats. Good solid people who may also abstain from voting or waste their vote on a candidate who would divide the Democratic vote.

[Sky Jewels]

15. I was responding to post #3, where he said:

"it's very, very easy to lose good, solid people to Trump or DeSantis"

[Beastly Boy]

17. Apparently, he has a point there too

https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/polls/president-general/2024/national/

If he is only 15% right, that would make a big difference in the next election

[gulliver]

13. It's probably not unusual to arrive at that conclusion

It's a pitfall. It's just too easy to write people off and categorize them as "neglect forever" or "hate forever" in our job jars. And if it were only "we discerning judges and first stone throwers" who suffered for it, it might not be a problem.

I just don't think we've got a lot of people who support Trump who, if you fell over in the store, wouldn't rush over and ask if you needed help. Just not that many, regardless of who you or they are. Trump is, imo, a malevolent piece of crap. But a big part of the reason he's so rotten is that he brings out the bad side of people on every side.

[maxrandb]

28. There are a lot of people, take my brother for example

He voted for Obama twice, then went full on flaming MAGAt. His shift happened to coincide with a nasty divorce, so sure, throw in some misogyny.

I have an LGBTQ child. I explained to my brother how his vote for the asshatted xtian white nationalist party was putting my child's (his kin's), very existence at risk.

He doesn't see it that way. In fact he said to me; "you know I love _________, and if anyone came after __________, I'd be the first to defend."

It's the typical "it can never happened here", and the "I'm not a racist, or a homophobic fascist", so "don't lump me in with the crazies in the Retrumplican Party".

So, in my brothers mind, I don't need to worry about the power of the state coming after my child, because "he", my fat, emphasemic, 70 year old brother, will defend them

A lot of Retrumplican voters may be decent people, they just can't seem to grasp that there aren't enough of them to change the white nationalism that is ascendant in their current party.

[Sky Jewels]

30. The "decent" ones don't work to change the white nationalism...

in their party because it just doesn't bother them. ... That's why they're not actually decent. They're racists. Because they're fine with racism.

[LakeArenal]

2. We should flatter men to vote on the right side of history?

The choices could not be any more clear than at this time in history.

Gee, we like you…..done.

[gulliver]

5. Not flatter, simply respect and recognize

I'm not sure the choices are clear. That's what's so grotesque and can be so frustrating.

I'm Biden/Harris and a straight Dem ticket as always. And we'll even get a lot of conservatives Republicans and independents "holding their nose" and voting with us.

But it should be a tidal wave. One way to make the choice clear is to tell men of good faith and comportment that they belong with the Dems too.

And everyone else too, of course.

[LakeArenal]

9. I just don't think men of good conscience are that shallow.

Respect is earned. Then given.

[Beastly Boy]

12. I disagree.

In my experience, most voters, especially but not exclusively men, are pretty shallow. The respect they (we) deserve does not come from acknowledging their intellect or absence thereof, but from recognizing each and every one of them (us) having equal right to their (our) vote.

[LakeArenal]

16. It's a perception that we don't like men. I'm not saying flattery won't help...

And agree to disagree about the shallowness of people.

[Beastly Boy]

18. A negligible number of people don't like men in general. That is not the issue.

The OP brought up "toxic masculinity" as an example only. It is not the issue itself, but the line of narrative it introduces into the general discourse about Democratic ideology. The issue and the narrative are both entirely legitimate, it is the time and the place of addressing it that the OP is questioning.

And regardless of our disagreements on the subject of shallowness, the respect we all deserve equally is rooted in our right to vote. This is the price we pay for democracy.

[LakeArenal]

19. Ok. Just remember Dems like you.

[Beastly Boy]

22. You got it.

[betsuni]

24. Why would men think Democrats aren't respecting and recognizing them?

Do they think Democratic policies helping the working and middle classes somehow excludes them? Why? I don't understand at all.

[betsuni]

27. I know I'll never get an answer, but would like to unlock the mystery of why

anyone thinks Democrats disrespect and ignore them.

[cally]

7. I agree with most of what you say

I do think the Republicans have succeeded with their messaging that the Dems hate white working class men and women. The appeal to many of getting back at the libs (for what), I do think Dems need to promote that we like these men and women. Too often in liberal campaign circles, we get lost in the intellectual arguments and need to focus on getting out voters during an election. I agree with the intellectual debates, but it doesn’t help with messaging at all!

[stopdiggin]

11. Democratic ranks are replete with 'men' who don't

seem to have any problem with messaging. I am skeptical that any appreciable number of males needing 'reassurance' - have any affinity for Democratic values in the first place. If the phrase 'toxic masculinity' is somehow triggering for you - I think there's a pretty good chance that you're a jackhammer, and you know it. (perhaps own it?)

[edisdead]

14. As a man I am pretty fed up with the term mansplaining.

As a man I am pretty fed up with the term mansplaining.

Don’t get me wrong mansplaining is a legit thing (as if I needed to explain that) but it has gotten to be used so flippantly in my experience (and no not just directed at me) that I have witnessed people shutting down and not participating in conversations from personal to professional for fear of getting chastised as a “mansplainer”.

But it is an annoyance that I can deal with in hopes that things even out. I just think sometimes things get dished out extra-judicially and as a trend and that’s understandable so
long as eventually the keep evens out.

Sorry for hijacking this thread a bit and mansplaining my thoughts on the subject.

[NoRethugFriends]

21. I agree with this on mansplaining.

It exists, but it way overused.
However, toxic masculinity is real and needs to be called out.

[edisdead]

26. it is for sure real.

Toxic masculinity has been spiraling out of control for decades. It is disgusting what is considered manliness today.

[Scrivener7]

23. As a woman, I'm pretty fed up with mansplaining.

[Scrivener7]

20. Oh, Lord. This thread.

[Initech]

25. I will never understand people voting to give billionaires more money.

Elon and Jeff Bezos combined have more money than the gross domestic product of entire continents. CEOs make 5,000 times what their average employee makes. And these scumbags just want more money. That isn’t right. We have to start flipping votes. The bad thing, again is that GOP propaganda is so entwined in people. It’s going to take a lot to change minds.

[FakeNoose]

29. That's a very good point

To equate today's economy and politics against the attitudes and mores of the American Revolution....

The colonies revolted against George III, and they started a whole new system of democracy. But the King of England in the 1770's was far less evil and greedy than the billionaires of today. When did we get so tolerant of that selfish and greedy behavior? Nowadays it seems like we almost root for them to become even richer at our expense.

[KentuckyWoman]

31. I'm sorry but all of this whining just needs to stop.

Folks who say they quit voting because the Democratic party dared to stand up for "women and gays" needs a serious wake up call. They are going to like living under dictatorship a hell of a lot less.

I don't mean to belittle anyone's viewpoint or their beef with the party. We can get to fighting about whether we are responding to men's issues, or 20 somethings issues or whatever later. Job 1 is save America. We'll need that to get any of the rest done. The danger before us requires every American to get off their butt, put the work boots on.

The Democratic Party is all that stands in the way of dictatorship.

[Kid Berwyn]

32. Christians, too.

Why alienate when it’s easy to demonstrate why voting for the Democratic candidate is in their best interest?