Some very serious stuff from Seth Abramson

[AntivaxHunters]

This is a hell of a thread.

[lindysalsagal]

1. Exactly what I was wondering.

We used to believe our newspeople were politically neutral. What if they're not? This is why some online content might be better for everyone if they fell under federal communications law.

But freedom of speech? How free? When? Where?

We need media ethics arbiters.

[Thunderbeast]

2. I believe the word you are looking for is...

TREASON

[crickets]

3. 👆

[elleng]

12. HELL YES.

[dchill]

34. But he can still be a traitor, right?

If he's not, I don't know what a traitor is.

[DENVERPOPS]

58. Or

the word sedition works pretty well also.......

[Mr. Mustard 2023]

63. Adhering to their Enemies...

...giving them Aid and Comfort. I think "Aid" applies.

[Farmer-Rick]

67. Levying war is not what most people think it is.

It only requires force and a conspiracy of people to try and stop the US government from fulfilling a legal function. The attack on the capitol meets this requirement.

But Aside from that, let's look at the other requirements after the or. Adhering to their enemies means an intent to betray. Seems clear to me that Musk has already gone over to the other side with his constant positive remarks about Putin and disparaging comments of our support of Ukraine. His intent is pretty clear if you read his Xs.

Then there is aid and comfort which means to render assistance or counsel. Well he has counseling sessions with Putin. It seems clear he talks to the dictator very frequently. You don't talk to a ruthless dictator that often if you are not being supportive.

Now as for witnesses, well every American can read how much Musk loves him some Putin. There are a lot of witnesses to his praise and support of Putin.

Just remember we have given Musk over $15.3 billion in government contracts. Is this a man who should have such easy access to our space technology secrets? What has he passed on to Russia?

[H2O Man]

23. Yes, in the common

use of the word. But definitely not in the legal sense, as the US is not in a declared war with Russia. This does not make it less offensive, of course.

[Thunderbeast]

53. Just as Inmate P01135809 was not technically a rapist.

...however, Judge Kaplan refused to consider a defamation claim against E. Jean Carrol when she stated that he raped her.

The legal definition of rape in New York State does not perfectly match common usage.

The same is true of treason. While common usage would support the charge, it would not survive the proper scrutiny of a prosecution.

Musk should, however, pay dearly for his interference in US foreign and military policy. Innocent people are dying at the hands of the Russians.

Subsidies for Space-X and Tesla should be on the table. TWIT-X should receive major scrutiny.

[H2O Man]

57. Inmate?

Who is this inmate you speak of?

[Hermit-The-Prog]

55. The U.S. Constitution makes no mention of a declared war in defining treason.

It does not define "enemy", either.

[H2O Man]

59. While that is true,

it overlooks that the specific wording of the Constitution is not what defines constitutional law in this country.

[Hermit-The-Prog]

60. The U.S. Constitution is the supreme law of the land.

It gets redefined all the time, correctly and incorrectly.

The Constitution doesn't include in its definition of treason a requirement for armed conflict or declared war.

It does leave it to Congress to define the penalty for treason. However, Congress didn't elaborate much when setting that penalty:

18 U.S. Code § 2381 - Treason
Whoever, owing allegiance to the United States, levies war against them or adheres to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort within the United States or elsewhere, is guilty of treason and shall suffer death, or shall be imprisoned not less than five years and fined under this title but not less than $10,000; and shall be incapable of holding any office under the United States.

Where is the definition of "enemy" to be found? An entity that tries in multiple, wide-reaching, long running attacks to subvert and divert our election process to its own advantage must surely be considered an enemy of the United States.

[H2O Man]

61. I will assume

that you are familiar with constitutional law, which is hardly "redefined all the time."

[Hermit-The-Prog]

62. See Dobbs.

[H2O Man]

69. Right.

There are several examples of when it has changed. But zero per treason.

[calimary]

33. Works for me!

[Dan]

44. actually Sedition

we are not in a state of war.

[wendyb-NC]

48. That's the right one

[noiretextatique]

50. Indeed nt

[Roc2020]

65. that's the word

[delisen]

4. I think we have a huge problem. nt

[FSogol]

6. Musk will have to pull out all the stops to ensure GOP victories in the upcoming election. n/t

[Joinfortmill]

5. Yeah, he's in for a world of hurt.

It's coming if only half of this is accurate.

[spanone]

7. K&R

[Martin68]

8. Good points. Where does the right to free speech and to sell your companies products to whomever you

want to end, and where does betrayal of your country begin?

BTW, the US is not in an alliance with Ukraine, and I don't believe actions Musk takes to help Russia or hinder Ukraine directly impacts any NATO member directly. So it's not cut and dried.

[getagrip_already]

27. It is illegal to be an unregistered agent of a foreign government...

And aiding the military campaign of a hostile foreign government is certainly acting as an agent.

There are lots of laws that could be applied, including sanctions violations.

But that would require doj action.

I'm not gonna stay up waiting.

[Martin68]

31. I don't think there is evidence that Musk is an unregistered agent of a foreign government.

If that were the case, he would have been charged. I'm very curious to know how Musk found out the exact time that the Ukrainians were sending naval drones to attack Russian targets.

[leftstreet]

9. The US hasn't declared war on Russia

so most of the musings aren't really relevant

Maybe (maybe but doubtfully) Logan Act if he was directly negotiating with Russia against foreign policy

[getagrip_already]

28. Fara..... sanctions violations..... restricted technology transfer...

There are hundreds of laws he could have broken.

[Maraya1969]

10. brb Gotta go post a something on Musk's twitter account

[progressoid]

11. SpaceX alone got $2.8 billion in government contracts last year

This gets messy really quickly.

[Tree Lady]

46. Which is why he gets away with stuff like this

he has too much power and money.

[progressoid]

47. Yep. N/T

[ancianita]

13. It is a hell of a thread. Thank you for posting this. Oligarchs tell you what to think of them.

Oligarchs think they know what's best for more than one the country.

But if he's giving aid and comfort to a self proclaimed hostile enemy, and the military puts up with this (and what the f'n hell does that say about our military?!) he must be investigated by the civilian DOJ just like any other American.

Here's The New Yorker's eye opening article on Musk -- "Elon Musk's Shadow Rule" by Ronan Farrow

"
“We are living off his good graces,” a Pentagon official said of Musk’s role in the war in Ukraine. “That sucks.”

... Musk’s influence is more brazen and expansive. There is little precedent for a civilian’s becoming the arbiter of a war between nations in such a granular way, or for the degree of dependency that the U.S. now has on Musk in a variety of fields, from the future of energy and transportation to the exploration of space. SpaceX is currently the sole means by which nasa transports crew from U.S. soil into space, a situation that will persist for at least another year. The government’s plan to move the auto industry toward electric cars requires increasing access to charging stations along America’s highways. But this rests on the actions of another Musk enterprise, Tesla. The automaker has seeded so much of the country with its proprietary charging stations that the Biden Administration relaxed an early push for a universal charging standard disliked by Musk. His stations are eligible for billions of dollars in subsidies, so long as Tesla makes them compatible with the other charging standard.

In the past twenty years, against a backdrop of crumbling infrastructure and declining trust in institutions, Musk has sought out business opportunities in crucial areas where, after decades of privatization, the state has receded. The government is now reliant on him, but struggles to respond to his risk-taking, brinkmanship, and caprice. Current and former officials from nasa, the Department of Defense, the Department of Transportation, the Federal Aviation Administration, and the Occupational Safety and Health Administration told me that Musk’s influence had become inescapable in their work, and several of them said that they now treat him like a sort of unelected official. One Pentagon spokesman said that he was keeping Musk apprised of my inquiries about his role in Ukraine and would grant an interview with an official about the matter only with Musk’s permission. “We’ll talk to you if Elon wants us to,” he told me. In a podcast interview last year, Musk was asked whether he has more influence than the American government. He replied immediately, “In some ways.” Reid Hoffman told me that Musk’s attitude is “like Louis XIV: ‘L’état, c’est moi.’ ”

Musk’s power continues to grow. His takeover of Twitter, which he has rebranded “X,” gives him a critical forum for political discourse ahead of the next Presidential election. He recently launched an artificial-intelligence company, a move that follows years of involvement in the technology. Musk has become a hyper-exposed pop-culture figure, and his sharp turns from altruistic to vainglorious, strategic to impulsive, have been the subject of innumerable articles and at least seven major books, including a forthcoming biography by Walter Isaacson. But the nature and the scope of his power are less widely understood.

More than thirty of Musk’s current and former colleagues in various industries and a dozen individuals in his personal life spoke to me about their experiences with him. Sam Altman, the C.E.O. of OpenAI, with whom Musk has both worked and sparred, told me, “Elon desperately wants the world to be saved. But only if he can be the one to save it.”

The terms of the Starlink deal have not been made public. Ukrainian officials say that they have not faced further service interruptions. But Musk has continued to express ambivalence about how the technology is being used, and where it can be deployed. In February, he tweeted, “We will not enable escalation of conflict that may lead to WW3.” He said, as he had told Kahl, that he was sincerely attempting to navigate the moral dilemmas of his role: “We’re trying hard to do the right thing, where the ‘right thing’ is an extremely difficult moral question.”

https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2023/08/28/elon-musks-shadow-rule

[flamingdem]

14. Musk is not a patriot

He doesn't understand / feel for our country in my opinion. It's all business.

[ProudProgressiveNow]

15. KR NT

[Warpy]

16. We are supplying Ukrainie along with most of the rest of the world

but we're not at war with Russia (yet, and I hope not).

About the most Musk can and should be charged with is being an unregistered foreign agent.

I do believe that carries a hefty penalty should the DOJ choose to levy it.

[dobleremolque]

17. K&R! These questions need much more visibility, as well as

some answers from our political and governmental leaders.

[tinrobot]

18. No war declaration, so technically not treason, but absolutely a Logan Act violation

Any citizen of the United States, wherever he may be, who, without authority of the United States, directly or indirectly commences or carries on any correspondence or intercourse with any foreign government or any officer or agent thereof, with intent to influence the measures or conduct of any foreign government or of any officer or agent thereof, in relation to any disputes or controversies with the United States, or to defeat the measures of the United States, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than three years, or both.

There might be more you could charge him with, but it's a start.

[bucolic_frolic]

19. All of that is true

The only thing I can think of in defense of Musk is the USA is a neutral country, we are not technically at war even though backing up NATO and UKR

[PatrickforB]

20. I did more than wonder about Musk. I wrote a letter expressing concern over this to the White

House. This, to my mind, is treason.

[Alice Kramden]

21. And don't forget Starlink

(Last year)Elon Musk secretly ordered his engineers to turn off his company’s Starlink satellite communications network near the Crimean coast last year to disrupt a Ukrainian sneak attack on the Russian naval fleet

Source: CNN

Elon Musk secretly ordered his engineers to turn off his company’s Starlink satellite communications network near the Crimean coast last year to disrupt a Ukrainian sneak attack on the Russian naval fleet, according to an excerpt adapted from Walter Isaacson’s new biography of the eccentric billionaire titled “Elon Musk.”

As Ukrainian submarine drones strapped with explosives approached the Russian fleet, they “lost connectivity and washed ashore harmlessly,” Isaacson writes.

Musk’s decision... left Ukrainian officials begging him to turn the satellites back on...

[link:/https://edition.cnn.com/2023/09/07/politics/elon-musk-biography-walter-isaacson-ukraine-starlink/index.html]

|

[AmBlue]

29. What if Musk's supposed *generosity" in providing Starlink to Ukraine...

...is really just a way of spying on Ukraine's war strategy so it can be surreptitiously fed to the Russians?

[Alice Kramden]

49. This

Plus he has the means to thwart Ukraine's communications - a lot of power for one very capricious man

[4lbs]

24. This saga sure does have a "Musk"y scent to it.

Has Elon ever been spotted with a sable hat?



Oops. This could be an issue.





Elon Musk Spotted With Pro-Putin Russian TV Presenter at World Cup
December 2022

https://www.businessinsider.com/musk-spotted-pro-putin-russian-tv-presenter-world-cup-2022-12

[niyad]

25. Thoroughly disgusted KNR. But, Seth, it's "foment", not "ferment".

[AmBlue]

30. Was going to say the same...

[LiberalArkie]

26. Since Elon has the keys to the encryption of the internet data on the datalinks,

does he automatically send all the Ukraine Army data also to Moscow?

[Duppers]

52. Good question❗

TY!

[LymphocyteLover]

32. the super rich get away with a ton of shady and treasonous shit and it's sickening

[peppertree]

36. +1

The true fifth column - and the most dangerous, for obvious reasons.

[peppertree]

35. Muskrat puts the ASS in foreign asset

And the Ape in Apartheid.

[Trueblue Texan]

37. LINK??? nt

[PortTack]

38. He, just like tfg is a wanna be dictator. If asked he'd say no. To that I say he's typical rich jerk

Who doesn’t know himself, other than he doesn’t want to be told no.

[dalton99a]

39. Musk is a traitorous asshole.

[Quanto Magnus]

40. Nothing will happen

He's a REAL billionaire, therefore to rich to suffer any consequences...

We don't control the House, so there won't even be a query from them.

[CharleyDog]

41. Musk's advocacy for Putin is the same as *most* Republicans

His position is the same as the Republican talking points and POV. It fits in with their hating wholesome values, like respecting people/boundries and their love of "might makes right."

[UpInArms]

42. I wonder if this applies

Trading with the Enemy Act of 1917

The Trading with the Enemy Act (TWEA) of 1917 (40 Stat. 411, codified at 12 U.S.C. § 95 and 50 U.S.C. § 4301 et seq.) is a United States federal law, enacted on October 6, 1917, in response to, and precisely 6 months after the United States declaration of war on Germany on April 6, 1917. It continues to give the President of the United States the power to oversee or restrict any and all trade between the United States and its enemies in times of war. TWEA was amended in 1933 by the Emergency Banking Act to extend the president’s authority also in peace time. It was amended again in 1977 by the International Emergency Economic Powers Act (IEEPA) to restrict again the application of TWEA only to times of war, while the IEEPA was intended to be used in peace time.[1]

TWEA is sometimes confused with the IEEPA, which grants somewhat broader powers to the President, and which is invoked during states of emergency when the United States is not at war. The IEEPA was passed in an attempt to rein in perceived abuses by the US President of the TWEA by making the powers subject to the National Emergencies Act (NEA). The NEA included a legislative veto to allow Congress to terminate a national emergency with a concurrent resolution.[2] However, the U.S. Supreme Court found such legislative vetoes unconstitutional in Immigration and Naturalization Service v. Chadha. Following the Court's decision, Congress amended the NEA to require a joint resolution.[3]

The law set the basis for sanctions by the United States.[4] As of 2023, Cuba is the only country restricted under TWEA.[5] North Korea was removed from the provisions of TWEA in 2008, although restrictions under IEEPA authority remain in effect.[6][7]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trading_with_the_Enemy_Act_of_1917

[OAITW r.2.0]

43. I've been thinking about buying a Starlink connection.

I'm at the end of the internet pipeline here in Central Maine. I know Starlink would provide a huge performance boost over my current ISP....but this gives me pause. How the fuck do we know how Musk is using the data on subscibers to his service?

[sellitman]

70. I was interested in his Model 3 Tesla

Was, being the operative word.

Now I'd never buy one. Actually since he let the Nazis back on Xtwitter

Screw him.

[tanyev]

45. I don't think the House GOP is scared to investigate this.

They don't see any reason to investigate because most of them are in complete agreement with Musk.

[Pluvious]

51. Original link

Link to tweet

?

[Blue Owl]

56. Elon Musk can go fuck himself

Can’t stand that fucking prick…

[2naSalit]

66. If he holds US citizenship...

He's a fucking TRAITOR and should be punished accordingly.

[Mc Mike]

68. Deport him. Send half of him to South AFrica, half to Russia.

[live love laugh]

71. Aid and comfort. He should have to repay the $$ sent to aid Ukraine.

[elocs]

72. A Washington Post opinion piece about Musk:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2023/09/07/elon-musk-starlink-ukraine-russia-invasion/?utm_campaign=wp_post_most&utm_medium=email&utm_source=newsletter&wpisrc=nl_most

"The untold story of Elon Musk’s support for Ukraine"
An hour before Russia launched its invasion of Ukraine on Feb. 24, 2022, it used a massive malware attack to disable the routers of the American satellite company Viasat that provided communications to the country. The command system of the Ukrainian military was crippled, making it almost impossible to mount a defense. Top Ukrainian officials frantically appealed to SpaceX founder Elon Musk for help, and the deputy prime minister, Mykhailo Fedorov, used Twitter to urge him to send Ukraine terminals so it could use the satellite system that the company had built. “We ask you to provide Ukraine with Starlink stations,” he wrote.

Musk agreed. Two days later, 500 Starlink terminals arrived in Ukraine. “We have the U.S. military looking to help us with transport, State has offered humanitarian flights and some compensation,” Gwynne Shotwell, Musk’s president at SpaceX, emailed him. “Folks are rallying for sure!”

“Cool,” Musk responded. “Sounds good.” He got on a Zoom call with President Volodymyr Zelensky, discussed the logistics of a larger rollout and promised to visit Ukraine when the war was over.
Lauren Dreyer, SpaceX’s director of Starlink operations, began sending Musk updates twice a day. “Starlink kits are already allowing Ukraine Armed Forces to continue operating theater command centers,” she wrote on March 1. “These kits can be life or death, as the opponent is now focusing heavily on comms infrastructure. They are asking for more.”

Lauren Dreyer, SpaceX’s director of Starlink operations, began sending Musk updates twice a day. “Starlink kits are already allowing Ukraine Armed Forces to continue operating theater command centers,” she wrote on March 1. “These kits can be life or death, as the opponent is now focusing heavily on comms infrastructure. They are asking for more.”

[flying_wahini]

73. And yet nothing ever happens about it.

[DFW]

74. I realize the Trump years went by slowly, but...

Just what “eight year period” was the OP referring to?

[OverBurn]

75. Lock Him the Fuck Up