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Nevilledog

(55,081 posts)
Sat Sep 9, 2023, 07:58 PM Sep 2023

A New JFK Assassination Revelation Could Upend the Long-Held "Lone Gunman" Theory

https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2023/09/new-jfk-assassination-revelation-upend-lone-gunman

No paywall
https://archive.ph/rTivH

He has kept his secret for 60 years.

Paul Landis was one of two Secret Service agents tasked with guarding first lady Jacqueline Kennedy on November 22, 1963—the day President John F. Kennedy was assassinated. In a new book, The Final Witness, to be published in October, Landis claims to have seen something that afternoon that he had never publicly admitted before. His secret, coming to light only now, will certainly reorient how historians and laymen perceive that grave and harrowing event. His account also raises questions about whether there might have been a second gunman in Dallas that day.

After much prodding and reflection, Landis, now 88, made the decision to begin laying out his recollections for publication. Because I have written three books on presidential history, and because Landis’s publisher, Chicago Review Press, happens to be my publisher, an editor there asked me to read a copy of the galley and offer my comments, which I did quite eagerly. In fact, I was so taken with Landis’s backstory and, upon spending time with him, so drawn to the facets of his tale that are not answered in the book (whose details were first reported in The New York Times), that I probed further, maintaining a healthy dose of skepticism.

And yet, as I got to know him during more than a dozen meetings this past year, I was won over by his integrity and by the way his account of what he witnessed in Dallas—and in the grave months of American mourning that followed—remained consistent and unwavering. Over time, Landis and I became close. As a result, I am writing this assessment of his narrative (and of his motives for coming out with his story) not only as a historian and armchair investigator but as Landis’s confidant.

Twenty-three-year-old Paul Landis applied to become a Secret Service agent in 1958. He came from Worthington, Ohio, a suburb of Columbus, and had graduated from Ohio Wesleyan University 15 months earlier. A neighborhood boy, Bob Foster, who was friends with Landis’s sister, had joined the Secret Service two years before. After speaking with Foster, Landis thought being in the Secret Service sounded like the “coolest job in the universe.”

*snip*


103 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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A New JFK Assassination Revelation Could Upend the Long-Held "Lone Gunman" Theory (Original Post) Nevilledog Sep 2023 OP
"Those boys on the grassy knoll were dead and buried when in three hours" Hotler Sep 2023 #1
Best movie line ever from an otherwise mediocre movie /nt localroger Sep 2023 #9
JFK? I thought it was great. I loved the collection of character actors LymphocyteLover Sep 2023 #97
It wasn't from JFK, it was from Shooter. /nt localroger Sep 2023 #100
Love that scene. I was in high school algebra glass the day Kennedy was shot. Second row from... usaf-vet Sep 2023 #22
Clint Hill was assigned to Jaqueline Kennedy and he was the one who jumped on milestogo Sep 2023 #2
That and "eyewitness" account at are notoriously unreliable FreeState Sep 2023 #4
I'm very skeptical that somebody comes forward like this after 60 years. yardwork Sep 2023 #57
The article says he has suffered PTSD ever since Captain Zero Sep 2023 #87
I wish he had proceeded with the correct chain of evidence and also given testimony to the Commiss. Boomerproud Sep 2023 #3
The Commission would have ignored him dflprincess Sep 2023 #17
But, he would have been on record. yardwork Sep 2023 #58
Wow. After reading I am on the believer side he placed the bullet on Kennedy's stretcher. boston bean Sep 2023 #5
Especially since that other guy testified Tree Lady Sep 2023 #34
Imagining a Secret Service agent Mr.Bill Sep 2023 #6
It would be interesting to see the historical market for these things Effete Snob Sep 2023 #31
Unless he thought he did what was appropriate and that it would be given due attention. Igel Sep 2023 #73
He should have left it alone and told the proper people where it was. Mr.Bill Sep 2023 #78
60 YEARS later, NOW you want to change everything? Wow Shanti Shanti Shanti Sep 2023 #7
Well Anne Desclos waited until her 80s before admitting she wrote Story of O /nt localroger Sep 2023 #10
That is a totally different situation. yardwork Sep 2023 #59
Everything was never known at the time. Nowhere near Everything. Srkdqltr Sep 2023 #11
Jack was going to reveal that aliens and UFOs are real, that's why the CIA took him out Shanti Shanti Shanti Sep 2023 #14
JFK was going to do something that a certain cabal did not want done. roamer65 Sep 2023 #21
That has always been... 2naSalit Sep 2023 #32
RFK Jr said JFK hated the CIA & it was mutual womanofthehills Sep 2023 #41
I remember, at the time there were reports that were sealed to be opened 50 years after the death Srkdqltr Sep 2023 #8
I thought they would be opened when Arlen Specter died. nt Autumn Sep 2023 #12
Could be Srkdqltr Sep 2023 #16
John Connally didn't die until 1993 Wednesdays Sep 2023 #93
Definitely interesting. I feel sorry for the guy and can understand why this happened--why he failed hlthe2b Sep 2023 #13
proof is on hunter bidens laptop dembotoz Sep 2023 #15
Snort! paleotn Sep 2023 #18
... Nevilledog Sep 2023 #26
LOL! 2naSalit Sep 2023 #33
In his book, "Man of the House", former Speaker Tip O'Neill dflprincess Sep 2023 #19
I've visited and sat in Dealey Plaza. roamer65 Sep 2023 #23
So have I. As many pictures I have seen of that place, Mr.Bill Sep 2023 #39
+1 roamer65 Sep 2023 #48
O'Donnell opted to H2O Man Sep 2023 #40
If there was a grassy knoll shooter, he missed William Seger Sep 2023 #43
Oliver Stone promulgated a lot of falsehoods. yardwork Sep 2023 #61
We'll likely never know the truth. blue neen Sep 2023 #20
K & R Bookmarking - thanks for posting this! FakeNoose Sep 2023 #24
Over sixty years, witnesses die; memories evaporate and reorganize; physical evidence struggle4progress Sep 2023 #25
Thom Hartmann, the most fact backed person in media today, rubbersole Sep 2023 #27
If there was a Mafia connection dflprincess Sep 2023 #28
Havng just watched Ken Burns Tree Lady Sep 2023 #36
This message was self-deleted by its author elocs Sep 2023 #53
I was surprised also after all the Tree Lady Sep 2023 #66
A lot of people do things they'd rather not. Igel Sep 2023 #74
This message was self-deleted by its author elocs Sep 2023 #95
RFK Jr says his Uncle hated the CIA womanofthehills Sep 2023 #42
JFK showed no indication of wanting peace during his term. yardwork Sep 2023 #60
Watch Ken Burns doc Tree Lady Sep 2023 #67
I will check it out. yardwork Sep 2023 #69
When I was looking at all his docs Tree Lady Sep 2023 #70
✔️ ✔️ ✔️ ✔️ ✔️ n/t msfiddlestix Sep 2023 #65
Thanks for posting this, I read the entire article. Rhiannon12866 Sep 2023 #29
It's not even October yet Effete Snob Sep 2023 #30
K&R 2naSalit Sep 2023 #35
"My own conclusion is that Landis's story..." William Seger Sep 2023 #37
Hopefully I'm not the only one moniss Sep 2023 #38
I don't think we will ever know the exact facts of this. Xolodno Sep 2023 #44
Cold. Igel Sep 2023 #75
Hard to predict and track? former9thward Sep 2023 #81
Could not open the non-paywall site Sanity Claws Sep 2023 #45
try this Celerity Sep 2023 #86
Abraham Bolden said most fellow Secret Service didn't like African Americans in 1963. Kid Berwyn Sep 2023 #46
I have something to say about this... PCIntern Sep 2023 #47
+1 H2O Man Sep 2023 #51
Thank you PCIntern Sep 2023 #52
phantasm saturation of society H2O Man Sep 2023 #54
Oooh ... Ionesco. Igel Sep 2023 #76
I was 10 and when Ruby shot Oswald dflprincess Sep 2023 #79
Facts do change during an investigation, and initial facts put out by media are not always the shrike3 Sep 2023 #90
Yes. My mother is no conspiracy theorist but always thought the official JFK story was bunk LymphocyteLover Sep 2023 #98
Who did the coup? ecstatic Sep 2023 #99
I was seven y/o watching TV on the evening of 11-22-1963 and saw this scene of LE displaying a rifle John1956PA Sep 2023 #102
The magic bullet was always bullshit. Voltaire2 Sep 2023 #49
The Warren Report was always a bullshit coverup FakeNoose Sep 2023 #55
The simple, boring story of a single killer is the most plausible, but it doesn't sell books 60 Chainfire Sep 2023 #50
The reason why the warren commission went with the magic bullet Voltaire2 Sep 2023 #64
This message was self-deleted by its author elocs Sep 2023 #56
He claims to have "seen something". Well, that solves the mystery of the ages. Aristus Sep 2023 #62
Conspiracy theories never die Silent3 Sep 2023 #71
Good story but... jcgoldie Sep 2023 #63
True there might not have been Tree Lady Sep 2023 #68
Article said he did meticulously avoid the topic over the years due to PTSD Captain Zero Sep 2023 #88
yeah I read that jcgoldie Sep 2023 #89
Film NowISeetheLight Sep 2023 #72
the thing I learned about the assassination was that J. Edgar Hoover hated three men and those demigoddess Sep 2023 #77
❤️ ✿❧🌿❧✿ ❤️ Lucinda Sep 2023 #80
Mahalo for this.. It doesn't Cha Sep 2023 #82
I have no interest in "solving" a 60-year old mystery. brooklynite Sep 2023 #83
Is there any conspiracy that you could even entertain as being possible? Polybius Sep 2023 #84
My wife's Uncle was an engineer at Boeing. He was brought in to investigate TWA 800... brooklynite Sep 2023 #85
The FBI came in in the middle of the night and moved parts, and said to keep quiet Polybius Sep 2023 #91
They told you that, did they? brooklynite Sep 2023 #92
Highly reputable officials have said it Polybius Sep 2023 #94
Why was he so scared to talk it about until now ? Who threatened him ? Mr. Sparkle Sep 2023 #96
Murder Most Foul retread Sep 2023 #101
This Is Bullshit The Magistrate Sep 2023 #103

Hotler

(13,747 posts)
1. "Those boys on the grassy knoll were dead and buried when in three hours"
Sat Sep 9, 2023, 08:12 PM
Sep 2023

'boys' plural. " I still got the shovels".

usaf-vet

(7,811 posts)
22. Love that scene. I was in high school algebra glass the day Kennedy was shot. Second row from...
Sat Sep 9, 2023, 10:33 PM
Sep 2023

....the door. Third seat back from the front.

Two years later, I was a USAF Medic scrub in on a surgery when the announcement was made.

milestogo

(23,084 posts)
2. Clint Hill was assigned to Jaqueline Kennedy and he was the one who jumped on
Sat Sep 9, 2023, 08:16 PM
Sep 2023

the back of the limo, pushed Mrs. Kennedy back into and down on the seat, and shielded them with his body for the breakneck drive to Parkland Hospital. He was the only Secret Service agent who did anything at all to protect the Kennedys that day. Nobody else moved.

Never heard of Landis, but I didn't see him on the back of the limo.

yardwork

(69,364 posts)
57. I'm very skeptical that somebody comes forward like this after 60 years.
Sun Sep 10, 2023, 02:28 PM
Sep 2023

I'm not biased one way or the other toward various JFK theories. I'm just immediately skeptical of this guy coming forward now. If all he has to offer are his now-revealed memories, I don't see this going anywhere.

Captain Zero

(8,905 posts)
87. The article says he has suffered PTSD ever since
Mon Sep 11, 2023, 09:35 AM
Sep 2023

He quit the SService within a year of that day.

Boomerproud

(9,292 posts)
3. I wish he had proceeded with the correct chain of evidence and also given testimony to the Commiss.
Sat Sep 9, 2023, 08:24 PM
Sep 2023

Huge mistakes.

boston bean

(36,931 posts)
5. Wow. After reading I am on the believer side he placed the bullet on Kennedy's stretcher.
Sat Sep 9, 2023, 08:33 PM
Sep 2023

It did not come from Connally’s stretcher and there was no magic bullet.

Tree Lady

(13,282 posts)
34. Especially since that other guy testified
Sat Sep 9, 2023, 11:51 PM
Sep 2023

that it didn't come from Connellys stretcher and was forced into saying I am not sure.

Mr.Bill

(24,906 posts)
6. Imagining a Secret Service agent
Sat Sep 9, 2023, 08:37 PM
Sep 2023

picking up the most important evidence of the 20th century, not telling anyone about it then just placing it in proximity to the body is a bit of a stretch for me.

And no, I am not interested in spending my Saturday evening rehashing all the evidence of the JFK assasination. I'll just leave it at that. I hope he sells a ton of books.

 

Effete Snob

(8,387 posts)
31. It would be interesting to see the historical market for these things
Sat Sep 9, 2023, 11:42 PM
Sep 2023

Are there dry spells? Is there a cycle? The publishers know.

He’s gotta pay the bills like everyone else.

Igel

(37,535 posts)
73. Unless he thought he did what was appropriate and that it would be given due attention.
Sun Sep 10, 2023, 04:23 PM
Sep 2023

Addressed late in the article is a justification for his silence--the Warren Commission report wasn't out when he turned away from the entire business and stopped paying attention to it because, Freud and others notwithstanding, sometimes just moving on is the best way to handle trauma. (It's so not the current Zeitgeist, but has a fair amount of disliked research supporting it. It's just that it cuts into psychologists' income and is taken to indicating that you're a bad person for adequately feeling for the vulnerable.)

Mr.Bill

(24,906 posts)
78. He should have left it alone and told the proper people where it was.
Sun Sep 10, 2023, 04:46 PM
Sep 2023

Failing that, he should have at least told someone about it and told them where he found it.

 

Shanti Shanti Shanti

(12,047 posts)
14. Jack was going to reveal that aliens and UFOs are real, that's why the CIA took him out
Sat Sep 9, 2023, 09:18 PM
Sep 2023

I've stuck with that conclusion for 50 years

roamer65

(37,953 posts)
21. JFK was going to do something that a certain cabal did not want done.
Sat Sep 9, 2023, 10:29 PM
Sep 2023

JFK was assassinated and Khrushchev was removed from power and “pensioned off”one year later.

At this point, to me as well the question is WHY was he killed.

2naSalit

(102,793 posts)
32. That has always been...
Sat Sep 9, 2023, 11:42 PM
Sep 2023

The question for me. It's not so much the who but the why. Because the who part was truncated and left to spawn conspiracies it was left alone to distract from people asking why.

womanofthehills

(10,988 posts)
41. RFK Jr said JFK hated the CIA & it was mutual
Sun Sep 10, 2023, 12:21 AM
Sep 2023

He said RFK told assistants he wished he could abolish the CIA because they wanted him to go to war with Cuba, and put more troops into Laos & Viet Nam.

Srkdqltr

(9,760 posts)
8. I remember, at the time there were reports that were sealed to be opened 50 years after the death
Sat Sep 9, 2023, 09:00 PM
Sep 2023

Of all the Kennedys and Conellys. After all this time I have no clue whatever happened to that.
There were reporters at the time who disappeared from view.
Most people at the time knew there was a lot more than has been ever reported or will ever be reported. Ever.

Srkdqltr

(9,760 posts)
16. Could be
Sat Sep 9, 2023, 09:25 PM
Sep 2023

There were so many stories going around then added too over the years. People were no different then then they are now.

hlthe2b

(113,971 posts)
13. Definitely interesting. I feel sorry for the guy and can understand why this happened--why he failed
Sat Sep 9, 2023, 09:15 PM
Sep 2023

to come forward to correct he record all these years. I am glad that he has--however late, albeit we will undoubtedly never know if a second shooter was involved and if so, who. Too many years and too many opportunities for coverup.

dflprincess

(29,341 posts)
19. In his book, "Man of the House", former Speaker Tip O'Neill
Sat Sep 9, 2023, 10:11 PM
Sep 2023

Last edited Sat Sep 9, 2023, 10:46 PM - Edit history (1)

said that Kenneth O'Donnell & Dave Powers (two of JFK's aides & friends who had been with him for years) told him in 1968 that they both thought two shots were fired from the fence on the grassy knoll.

O'Neill reminded O'Donnell that his testimony to the Warren Commission had been different and, per O'Neill, O'Donnell responded "I told the FBI what I had heard, but they said it couldn't have happened that way and that I must have been imagining things. So I testified the way they wanted me to. I just didn't want to stir up any more pain and trouble for the family."

Since that time O'Donnell's son has said that his father called the Warren Commission investigation "pointless" and claimed shots came from two different directions.

I've always thought if the FBI could pressure two of Kennedy's closest friends into changing their testimony, what kind of effect would they have on ordinary citizens who witnessed the assassination?

Mr.Bill

(24,906 posts)
39. So have I. As many pictures I have seen of that place,
Sun Sep 10, 2023, 12:15 AM
Sep 2023

I was struck by how small it was. Taking a shot from any of the suspected places would not be difficult, and I'm no expert with guns.

H2O Man

(79,052 posts)
40. O'Donnell opted to
Sun Sep 10, 2023, 12:15 AM
Sep 2023

Last edited Sun Sep 10, 2023, 01:50 AM - Edit history (1)

bend to the pressure, Powers did not testify before the Warren Commission. These were war veterans, who immediately understood what was happening. Powers went beyond saying what he heard, and did tell others what he saw come from behind the fence on the knoll.

William Seger

(12,443 posts)
43. If there was a grassy knoll shooter, he missed
Sun Sep 10, 2023, 12:33 AM
Sep 2023

Contrary to Stone's "back and to the left" scene, the Zapruder film actually shows that JFK was in fact hit from behind: His head immediately snapped forward about 2.5" before starting the back-and-to-the-left motion. That motion starts two frames after the hit, and the motion shows acceleration for the first several frames. Neither the delay nor the acceleration can be explained by momentum transfer from a bullet, but they can be explained by muscular spasm. This was first pointed out shortly after the film was made public (and I actually rediscovered it myself), but JFK conspiracy theorists just choose to ignore it.

struggle4progress

(126,156 posts)
25. Over sixty years, witnesses die; memories evaporate and reorganize; physical evidence
Sat Sep 9, 2023, 10:40 PM
Sep 2023

is lost, damaged, contaminated ...

It really doesn't matter what new tales anyone tells now

rubbersole

(11,223 posts)
27. Thom Hartmann, the most fact backed person in media today,
Sat Sep 9, 2023, 10:46 PM
Sep 2023

has a frequent guest (I'm not looking it up right now) who has written books on the assassination back story. His conclusion has a mafia/Cuban connection. Listening to them talk about it is/was fascinating.

dflprincess

(29,341 posts)
28. If there was a Mafia connection
Sat Sep 9, 2023, 10:49 PM
Sep 2023

you can bet there was a CIA connection as well.

Neither the mob nor the CIA were happy about Cuba and, going back to the days when the CIA was called the OSS, the two had a partnership.

Tree Lady

(13,282 posts)
36. Havng just watched Ken Burns
Sat Sep 9, 2023, 11:57 PM
Sep 2023

Vietnam doc the military was mad that Kennedy wanted to stop what was happening in Vietnam. I don't trust them either as Johnson took over and immediately sent a bunch of troops over few months later.

Response to Tree Lady (Reply #36)

Tree Lady

(13,282 posts)
66. I was surprised also after all the
Sun Sep 10, 2023, 03:27 PM
Sep 2023

good Johnson did with civil rights and medicare. But Ken Burns has a bunch of videos of Johnson throughout the series being a total pro war president especially for Vietnam, it was all about this big bad fear of communism leftover from the 50's. At times he talked to the country lying about how the war was going. Makes me wonder what was up since they showed the main general over there was really screwing up bad choices and lying about how they were doing. They measured success by how many they killed not winning over the people they came to help.

It ended up taking Johnson down and why he decided not to run for reelection.

Igel

(37,535 posts)
74. A lot of people do things they'd rather not.
Sun Sep 10, 2023, 04:38 PM
Sep 2023

Esp. when there's some ulterior motivation.

But sometimes it's just a "slippery slope" sort of deal. You do x, but x + 1 isn't that much different, so, sure, why not? And if x+1 is okay, how about x+2? Then x+10, x+30, and you realize that your original position was nibbled to nothing by harmless guppies.

Then again, a lot of people change their minds and do things that an earlier (or later) self would be furious at.

It's still called "Viet Nam."

Response to Igel (Reply #74)

womanofthehills

(10,988 posts)
42. RFK Jr says his Uncle hated the CIA
Sun Sep 10, 2023, 12:24 AM
Sep 2023

He had big disagreements with the CIA over Cuba, Laos and Viet Nam. CIA kept pushing for war and JFK wanted peace.

yardwork

(69,364 posts)
60. JFK showed no indication of wanting peace during his term.
Sun Sep 10, 2023, 02:32 PM
Sep 2023

He escalated the war in Vietnam. Now, maybe he was personally opposed to it, but it didn't seem like that at the time.

Tree Lady

(13,282 posts)
67. Watch Ken Burns doc
Sun Sep 10, 2023, 03:33 PM
Sep 2023

We are towards the end now Nixons time but Kennedy changed his mind and was about to take troops out right before he was killed, which made me wonder if military was part of who killed him big money in war. Once Johnson took over he escalated and sent more troops.

Tree Lady

(13,282 posts)
70. When I was looking at all his docs
Sun Sep 10, 2023, 03:47 PM
Sep 2023

I read reviews that said this was the best one he made. It's hard to watch the violence but yes made great.

Rhiannon12866

(255,530 posts)
29. Thanks for posting this, I read the entire article.
Sat Sep 9, 2023, 11:16 PM
Sep 2023

I was in elementary school at the time, yet the events of that day are forever etched in my mind - and reading this took me right back. Fascinating read.

William Seger

(12,443 posts)
37. "My own conclusion is that Landis's story..."
Sun Sep 10, 2023, 12:03 AM
Sep 2023
... for several reasons, is not just possible; it in fact makes more sense than the core finding of the Warren Commission, known as the “single bullet” theory.


Well, it makes no sense at all to me -- it raises more questions than it answers. Nor would I agree that the single bullet theory is "the core finding" of the Warren Commission. Rather, JFK conspiracy theorists have tried to make it a key anomaly that would reveal the hoax. The single bullet theory simply was, and still is, the most logical explanation for the evidence, and personal incredulity isn't enough to displace it; you need better evidence or a better story for the evidence we have -- all of it. I'm not seeing it here, since there's no real explanation for JFK's front bullet wound or the whereabouts of the bullet that injured Connally, if that isn't it.

moniss

(9,056 posts)
38. Hopefully I'm not the only one
Sun Sep 10, 2023, 12:09 AM
Sep 2023

here who remembers the Church Committee Hearings on Intelligence etc. conducted in 1975. These hearings were broadcast live on PBS and I remember being glued to them. Then came the part where they were examining the assassination of JFK. The testimony was riveting and their was a huge announcement that the next day former Chicago mob boss Sam Giancana was scheduled to testify. The anticipation nationwide was huge. The following morning the news announced that Sam Giancana had been found shot to death in his home in Oak Park, Illinois. So you would think that when the Committee resumed they would make a big stink about one of their biggest witnesses being killed right before testifying. Not a peep.

Giancana had already done time for refusing to talk about mob business and in fact went to Mexico for years to escape any grand juries etc. asking questions. So it doesn't make sense that someone would kill him because they were worried he would talk about "business". There were other cross links between Sam, JFK and the Intelligence folks though that have been well reported. The main question for me about this aspect is who didn't want Sam talking about the killing of JFK etc.? Run that down and you may be closer to who killed JFK and the why.

Xolodno

(7,350 posts)
44. I don't think we will ever know the exact facts of this.
Sun Sep 10, 2023, 01:34 AM
Sep 2023

The Warren Commission already had a premise and went about trying to prove it. It was a lone crazed gun man. And they may be right, but how they went about their investigation, puts a lot of shade on its objectivity.

It's well known the Soviets didn't have a hand in it, they were shitting bricks if a mid level KGB agent planned and authorized it. To their relief, none in the department did. And Krushiv being deposed a year later was due to his ailing condition. He could barely rule at that point and when he was deposed, he just came back from a three month vacation. And when he was given the "charges" of his deposition he said "Stop, I know what you are going to do". Rather than go through a show trial, accepted his resignation, then gave him a small farm to cultivate as a hobby and let him live out the last days of his life.

CIA? Let me just ask, do you think you cant trust them?

The Mob, I'm sure they were miffed at RFK's inquiries into them after they did a "favor". But killing a politician is bad for business (their offing of Jimmy Hoffa still haunts them), better to blackmail them to get what you want and I'm sure they had a lot of goods on JFK's escapades.

I definitely lean towards Oswald being just a nut case, the attempted assassin on Reagan was a nutcase as well. And they are hard to predict and track. And if the CIA did have any involvement, fairly sure there will be no written record of it anywhere and those that knew are probably long since dead. And the evidence today is no doubt supportive of the Warren Commission, so there is nothing to be gleamed from it.

But the nostalgia and conspiracy does make a lot of money for some.

former9thward

(33,424 posts)
81. Hard to predict and track?
Sun Sep 10, 2023, 09:37 PM
Sep 2023

Oswald was tracked for years by both the CIA and FBI. He had been assigned to a secret intelligence base while in the Marines and then repudiated America and went to Russia. He supposedly got tired of Russia and asked to come back to the U.S. Despite knowing U.S. secrets and fleeing to Russia he was welcomed back to the U.S. and was not questioned about his life in Russia. Instead he was given a job where the person to be assassinated came to him at Dealey Plaza. With every other assassination the killer had to go to the victim. Not with JFK. He came to the killer. How convenient!

Kid Berwyn

(24,395 posts)
46. Abraham Bolden said most fellow Secret Service didn't like African Americans in 1963.
Sun Sep 10, 2023, 09:59 AM
Sep 2023

And lots of agents were lushes.

Former U.S. Secret Service Agent Abraham BOLDEN was the first African American Secret Service agent to serve in the White House, personally appointed and literally hand-picked by President John F. Kennedy to the White House detail. Agent Abraham Bolden reported overt racism by his fellow agents and outright hostility toward the "n------loving president," quoting fellow Secret Service agents on the JFK detail.

In addition to enduring all manner of personal indignities, he was concerned at the lack of professionalism in those assigned to protect the president and reported his concerns. He was told, "OK. Thanks" by his superiors. When the problems weren't addressed, Bolden requested transfer back to the Secret Service office in Chicago.



President Biden recently pardoned Abraham Bolden



The story of a man who told the truth:



After 45 Years, a Civil Rights Hero Waits for Justice

Thom Hartmann
June 12, 2009 11:52 AM

A great miscarriage of justice has kept most Americas from learning about a Civil Rights pioneer who worked with President John F. Kennedy. But there is finally a way for citizens to not only right that wrong, but bring closure to the most tragic chapter of American presidential history.

After an outstanding career in law enforcement, Abraham Bolden was appointed by JFK to be the first African American presidential Secret Service agent, where he served with distinction. He was part of the Secret Service effort that prevented JFK's assassination in Chicago, three weeks before Dallas. But Bolden was framed by the Mafia and arrested on the very day he went to Washington to tell the Warren Commission staff about the Chicago attempt against JFK.

Bolden was sentenced to six years in prison, despite glaring problems with his prosecution. His arrest resulted from accusations by two criminals Bolden had sent to prison. In Bolden's first trial, an apparently biased judge told the jury that Bolden was guilty, even before they began their deliberations. Though granted a new trial because of that, the same problematic judge was assigned to oversee Bolden's second trial, which resulted in his conviction. Later, the main witness against Bolden admitted committing perjury against him. A key member of the prosecution even took the fifth when asked about the perjury. Yet Bolden's appeals were denied, and he had to serve hard time in prison, and today is considered a convicted felon.

After the release of four million pages of JFK assassination files in the 1990s, it became clear that Bolden -- and the official secrecy surrounding the Chicago attempt against JFK -- were due to National Security concerns about Cuba, that were unknown to Bolden, the press, Congress, and the public not just in 1963, but for the next four decades.

SNIP...

Abraham Bolden paid a heavy price for trying to tell the truth about events involving the man he was sworn to protect -- JFK -- that became mired in National Security concerns. Bolden still lives in Chicago, and has never given up trying to clear his name.

Will Abraham Bolden live to finally see the justice so long denied to him?

CONTINUED...

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/thom-hartmann/after-45-years-a-civil-ri_b_213834.html



After the assassination, he went to Washington on his own dime and reported what he saw to the Warren Commission. For his trouble -- and despite an exemplary record as a Brinks detective, Illinois State Trooper, and Secret Service agent -- Bolden was framed by the government using a paid informant's admitted perjury and spent a long time in prison. The government also drugged him and put him into psychiatric hospitals. His real crime was telling the truth.

Americans know the Truth: the country hasn't been the same since Nov. 22, 1963. President Kennedy kept the nation out of Vietnam and started toward the moon. He made clear that ALL Americans were equal under law. Imagine what the New Frontier could have become for us today? Certainly would not be a time where "money trumps peace."

PCIntern

(28,369 posts)
47. I have something to say about this...
Sun Sep 10, 2023, 10:09 AM
Sep 2023

Nothing anyone says is going to change the minds of those who, for whatever reason, think that Oswald was the lone shooter, acted on his own, and that Jack Ruby the mobster, wanted to avenge the death of the president of United States by saving Jackie Kennedy, the “misery“ of enduring a trial of the supposed assassin. Nothing.

But I’m gonna tell you this… we knew they were lying to us watching TV at the time in the same way that we know that Trump lies to us now. I will never forget watching TV and having everyone, and I mean everyone talk about the Mauser rifle they found which suddenly changed to a Mannlicher-Carcano , despite the protestations of all the sheriffs, deputies and police who saw the weapon. What a bunch of bullshit and it only got worse from there.

It’s been 60 years and in the same fashion that you almost had a coup d’état a few years ago, you had a successful one then. If you don’t believe it, I don’t really give a shit.

PCIntern

(28,369 posts)
52. Thank you
Sun Sep 10, 2023, 01:19 PM
Sep 2023

I’m really sick of the bullshit. It’s like the people who go on air now and claim that Trump went down to the 9/11 wreckage and helped out and gave money and even assisted the excavation. We know this was a lie because he was on the phone with media discussion how tall his building were relative to the WTC. But it doesn’t matter to them. It’s like an absurdist French play.

dflprincess

(29,341 posts)
79. I was 10 and when Ruby shot Oswald
Sun Sep 10, 2023, 05:39 PM
Sep 2023

I remember hearing my dad say to my mom, "Someone doesn't want him talking."

It didn't mean much to me at the time, but as time has gone by I'm inclined to think he was right.

 

shrike3

(5,370 posts)
90. Facts do change during an investigation, and initial facts put out by media are not always the
Mon Sep 11, 2023, 11:55 AM
Sep 2023

correct one. I see it happen locally, and nationally, today. Facts get jumbled. People insist they saw what they actually didn't see.

That said, I remember what the late Senator Pat Moynihan said about the Warren Commission. An expert on the Lincoln Assassination told him that if investigators were not transparent, if they were not completely honest with the public from the get-go, their findings, whatever they turned out to be, would be forever tainted, and likely disbelieved. Which of course it was, is.

Moynihan went on to muse that every scrap of evidence collected by investigators, even that tangentially related to the assassination, were released, it would still not be believed because too many lies were told. He declined to speculate on what he thought happened.

LymphocyteLover

(9,847 posts)
98. Yes. My mother is no conspiracy theorist but always thought the official JFK story was bunk
Tue Sep 12, 2023, 07:07 AM
Sep 2023

she was 24 in 1963, I was 1

John1956PA

(4,964 posts)
102. I was seven y/o watching TV on the evening of 11-22-1963 and saw this scene of LE displaying a rifle
Thu Sep 14, 2023, 12:44 PM
Sep 2023

Voltaire2

(15,377 posts)
49. The magic bullet was always bullshit.
Sun Sep 10, 2023, 10:57 AM
Sep 2023

It was and is the glaring defect in the Warren report.

FakeNoose

(41,634 posts)
55. The Warren Report was always a bullshit coverup
Sun Sep 10, 2023, 02:22 PM
Sep 2023

I was 12 years old when Kennedy was killed, and even I thought it was bullshit.

 

Chainfire

(17,757 posts)
50. The simple, boring story of a single killer is the most plausible, but it doesn't sell books 60
Sun Sep 10, 2023, 11:57 AM
Sep 2023

years later.

Voltaire2

(15,377 posts)
64. The reason why the warren commission went with the magic bullet
Sun Sep 10, 2023, 03:18 PM
Sep 2023

is that the rifle oswald was using, according to the same report, was incapable of firing fast enough to account for the multiple victims using the obvious method: multiple shots. So if 'magic bullet' doesn't work, then there were multiple shots and there is a glaring problem with the single shooter using oswald's rifle. Substitute 'implausible' for plausible. Its has always been the problem with the official story.

Response to Nevilledog (Original post)

Aristus

(72,187 posts)
62. He claims to have "seen something". Well, that solves the mystery of the ages.
Sun Sep 10, 2023, 02:52 PM
Sep 2023


Don't they know it was the CIA, teaming up with the Mafia, the Cubans, and aliens, who all gathered under an invisibility cloak on the grassy knoll, drew 'DEATH' from a deck of Tarot cards, and then unleashed a magic death ray on JFK?

A lone ex-Marine with a rifle could no more assassinate the President than an obscure artillery officer could rise up and conquer half of Europe and crown himself Emperor.

Man, when is this idiotic conspiracy theory going to die?
 

Silent3

(15,909 posts)
71. Conspiracy theories never die
Sun Sep 10, 2023, 04:07 PM
Sep 2023

They don't, unfortunately, even fade very much either.

jcgoldie

(12,046 posts)
63. Good story but...
Sun Sep 10, 2023, 03:04 PM
Sep 2023

...the whole "I just didn't bother to read the details of the warren commission report and just assumed it was true" for 50 years seems very unlikely. I mean he'd have to be living in a cave not to come into contact with the controversy.

Tree Lady

(13,282 posts)
68. True there might not have been
Sun Sep 10, 2023, 03:41 PM
Sep 2023

the internet but everyone watched Walter Cronkite nightly. Hard to believe he didn't being the upright guy this article said. Unless being bothered by it he turned off tv every single time they talked about JFK.

Captain Zero

(8,905 posts)
88. Article said he did meticulously avoid the topic over the years due to PTSD
Mon Sep 11, 2023, 10:14 AM
Sep 2023

from the event.

He was one of two agents who convinced Jackie to let go of JFKs bloody head and leave the car so they could get him out.

jcgoldie

(12,046 posts)
89. yeah I read that
Mon Sep 11, 2023, 10:48 AM
Sep 2023

I still find it hard to believe that someone could have lived for 50 years in the United States without having any exposure to the concept that there was an ongoing debate over Kennedy's assassination and that the official findings were controversial. It does not seem very believable to me.

NowISeetheLight

(4,002 posts)
72. Film
Sun Sep 10, 2023, 04:20 PM
Sep 2023

Watching the Zapruder Film its pretty clear the killing head shot came from the front. I've shot at watermelons as a kid and I've never seen one where all the debris flew backwards toward the direction the bullet went in. Especially at the velocity with thru and thru. If you watch the video (below) you can see the impact on JFKs forehead BEFORE the back of his head blows out. (Link below,).

A couple decades ago I bought a book called The Killing of a President. It was very detailed and included JFK autopsy pictures. I was amazed it was even released. I'm not a fan of conspiracy theories but a lot of stuff made sense. It at least raised questions that I was able to research and decide it was likely there were more shooters.

It's available on Amazon.

https://www.amazon.com/Killing-President-Photographic-Assassination-Conspiracy/dp/0140240039



https://m.

&pp=ygUNemFwcnVkZXIgZmlsbQ%3D%3D


demigoddess

(6,675 posts)
77. the thing I learned about the assassination was that J. Edgar Hoover hated three men and those
Sun Sep 10, 2023, 04:42 PM
Sep 2023

men were the most successful assassinations in the 60s. JFK, RFK and Martin Luther King Jr. And the FBI was supposed to be guarding them from assassination.

Cha

(319,077 posts)
82. Mahalo for this.. It doesn't
Sun Sep 10, 2023, 10:17 PM
Sep 2023

bother me that it's 60 years later.

I know not everything happens when we want it to.

And being 86 doesn't seem to get in Paul Landis' way.

So I'm not disbelieving it out of hand.

 

brooklynite

(96,882 posts)
83. I have no interest in "solving" a 60-year old mystery.
Sun Sep 10, 2023, 10:20 PM
Sep 2023

I rank it up with the disappearance of Judge Crater and the location of Amelia Aerhart's plane.

Polybius

(21,901 posts)
84. Is there any conspiracy that you could even entertain as being possible?
Sun Sep 10, 2023, 11:34 PM
Sep 2023

Not even TWA Flight 800?

 

brooklynite

(96,882 posts)
85. My wife's Uncle was an engineer at Boeing. He was brought in to investigate TWA 800...
Mon Sep 11, 2023, 08:27 AM
Sep 2023

No missle.

Polybius

(21,901 posts)
91. The FBI came in in the middle of the night and moved parts, and said to keep quiet
Mon Sep 11, 2023, 12:13 PM
Sep 2023

Definite conspiracy of some sort. Engineers aren't experts when it comes to missiles destroying things, especially detecting sulfur.

Polybius

(21,901 posts)
94. Highly reputable officials have said it
Mon Sep 11, 2023, 12:24 PM
Sep 2023
Another of the whistleblowers, former senior accident investigator with the NTSB Hank Hughes, said in a preview of the documentary that FBI agents were spotted on surveillance cameras going through the hanger where the crash evidence was kept "in the wee hours of the morning... for purposes unknown."


Documentary Alleges TWA Flight 800 Cover-Up

It's 100% terrorism, and I'm no big conspiracy guy at all, besides maybe JFK I don't believe in many at all.

Mr. Sparkle

(3,711 posts)
96. Why was he so scared to talk it about until now ? Who threatened him ?
Tue Sep 12, 2023, 06:40 AM
Sep 2023

I think we know the answer and it points to a cover up.

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