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[EYESORE 9001]

This message was self-deleted by its author (EYESORE 9001) on Sun Oct 8, 2023, 05:04 AM. When the original post in a discussion thread is self-deleted, the entire discussion thread is automatically locked so new replies cannot be posted.

[no_hypocrisy]

1. It's about time.

Violence is NOT a form of "free speech".

[Hugin]

2. Let me guess...

He was angry about Barack Obama being overwhelmingly elected President 15 years ago too?

[EYESORE 9001]

3. Your guess is as good as mine at this point

A cursory perusal of social media has been so far fruitless.

[Hugin]

4. A tenuous and circumstantial clue is an attack on Amtrak.

Amtrak drives these sorts out of their minds for some reason.

[machoneman]

8. No, it was Hillary marrying Bill that set him off!

[bucolic_frolic]

5. However they caught him, more power to the authorities, the Surveillance Society always wins

[malaise]

6. K & R

Lock them up

[ancianita]

7. Thing is, though, that calling destruction of property 'terrorism' skews the original definition

of terrorism as destruction to strike fear in humans toward a political end.
MAGA will try to make a case that he's not a terrorist because he tried only to destroy property or strike fear into a business entity.

Maybe for that reason I'm not as impressed by the label here. Because this isn't as easy a terrorism conviction as it looks. Prosecutors will still have to prove that this guy's motive was to kill humans and not just to destroy property.

Glad the FBI probably saved human lives indirectly, and one hopes that saving human lives should be what drives the FBI to prevent property destruction.

MAGA terrorism is real, as Wray has said under oath.
But if a terrorism upgrade in sentencing hasn't been all that successful in Jan 6 sentencings, I'd think that any conviction might be overturned if there isn't more terrorist convictions that have held on appeal through Jan 6 courts. If defense teams can show that prosecution can't prove motive, they can help MAGAts wiggle out of a terrorism charge.

Now the courts have to build a body of precedent -- I can't find the terrorism enhancement sentencing stats yet, so maybe they have -- so that future charges/convictions will hold with MAGA.

Invoking the terrorism enhancement typically adds about 15 years in prison to a defendant’s recommended sentence, sets the minimum calculation at 17 and a half years, and also flips the person charged into the criminal-history category used for serial offenders.

While prosecutors have yet to actually call for the enhancement at a sentencing for a Capitol riot defendant, the terrorism-related provision is playing a significant role behind the scenes.

At pretrial hearings, defense attorneys have indicated that they were unwilling to consider plea deals for their clients because prosecutors would not agree to refrain from seeking the domestic terrorism charges. In other cases, prosecutors seem to have dropped the enhancement, in exchange for cooperation from particular defendants.

Critics say giving prosecutors the authority to pursue or not pursue the massive sentence booster in cases stemming from political protests gives too much power to prosecutors in the process of negotiating a plea.

“It’s just lying there as a cudgel if they want it,” said Karen Greenberg, director of Fordham University law school’s Center on National Security. “It can be used so many different ways.”

Indeed, the range of crimes that can trigger the sentencing enhancement is sprawling. Under current law, 57 offenses are on the list, including such crimes as hostage-taking, destroying an aircraft, using fire or explosives to destroy a buildingband computer hacking that creates a public health or safety threat or impacts national security systems. Some of the so-called predicate offenses are quite obscure, including producing smallpox virus or assaulting a Nuclear Regulatory Commission inspector.

https://www.politico.com/news/2022/01/04/doj-domestic-terrorism-sentences-jan-6-526407

[mopinko]

9. he targeted a train full of employees and their families!

no, he wasnt trying to cost amtrak money.

also, your link is old. there have been terrorism enhancements of j6 defendants.

[ancianita]

12. Fine. As long as the FBI can prove that human death was what he intended.

It's an older link that still applies, though. Of course there have been terrorism enhancements of Jan 6 defendants. The question is, have there been enough -- do you have the number? I can't find it yet -- terrorist enhancement convictions to set enough precedence to withstand any appeal overturn on other FBI terrorism charges like this one.

[DontBelieveEastisEas]

40. Goal posts moved a little.

Previously you said, "the original definition of terrorism,,,
.. strike fear in humans"

Now you say, "prove that human death was what he intended"

Trains being targeted would strike fear in people that were considering being passengers, and their loved ones.

[ancianita]

45. Oh, yeah. I see. I equated "death" with fear. Okay. Yes, they'd have to prove that

he intended to strike fear into rail users. But what do people fear? Loss, harm, damage for the railway, leading to bodily harm and death for humans on the railways. Goal posts do wobble a bit, but I don't think I actually moved them.

I must've been thinking of the 'death' intention (toward congress people and officers) of Jan 6 convicts who still got terrorism enhanced sentences. Because they were there for a lot of reasons, and fear wasn't the only one.

Just sayin', though, proof that he intended either seems pretty tough to produce outside an outright confession.

[Farmer-Rick]

11. I'm confused, these trains had passangers too

It's not JUST property damage. There are lives of people at risk if they hit the sabotaged tracks. At a minimum the employees will be hurt.

It's people too.

"typically used by Amtrak, whose trains carry roughly 150-200 people when passing through Cleveland."

If you damage the train while in motion, it will kill or hurt the passangers and employees too.

If one of his sabotaged tracks worked, people would seriously be afraid to use that transportation.

[ancianita]

14. Fine. Let's look at another one -- that guy that shot at Planned Parenthood in MT.

He could claim he was just shooting at the building. Would that fall under the thinking category about humans and transportation? I'm not sure. It's also really fishy that police haven't found the shooter who did it in broad daylight. Almost as if they don't want to catch him.

[Farmer-Rick]

17. It would fall under terrorism because

It makes people afraid to use legal facilities. It keeps people away from resources they need and are afraid to use.

Yes terroism. It has always been terrorism when the crazies attacked abortion facilities and providers. We just like to pretend otherwise because it affects mostly women.

I still don't understand what you are getting at.

If the Nazi right wingers did only attack property not used by people, it may be considered not terrorism. Or if they just had sit ins or protest lines. But usually most pieces of property have a function for use by people. And attacking it hurts people.

[ancianita]

18. Okay. Well, I'm not claiming I'm right, but wondering out loud whether or not

the DOJ has enough conviction precedent to succeed in this new MAGAt zone, is all.

I'm hoping they do, but can also see why these charges might not hold up on appeal. I hope I'm wrong all around, but thought I'd bring the point up about different federal districts' views of Jan 6 terrorism enhancement precedents.

No harm in discussing, right?

[Farmer-Rick]

23. Yea, discussion is always welcomed

Food for thought.

[mopinko]

27. he's also targeting critical infrastructure.

and the fbi generally dont arrest ppl w/o a lot of evidence. in fact, we’ve seen them b outright reluctant to prosecute cases like this in.the.past.
we’re in a different world now.

[ancianita]

33. True.

And yes, we're definitely in the domestic terrorism world now.

Though the FBI has been reluctant in the past, they're bolstered by all the terrorist enhancement convictions over Jan 6, with no overturns on appeal, so that they can now pursue the same charges across other federal district jurisdictions. I'm just hoping domestic terrorism convictions stick on appeal across the other jurisdictions besides the DC District.

Not so much effort to get the MT guy with the shotgun, though, is there. White dude uses a shotgun on Planned Parenthood in broad daylight. But cops just don't know...!

[mahina]

21. I'm listening to the podcast, called The Alphabet Boys in which the FBI entraps Black Lives Matter

Protesters. Iheart media. After George Floyd’s murder, law “enforcement” really did percieve Black Lives Matter protests on a par with 9- 11 in terms of national security risks. Wray’s mendacious testimony in response to Cory Booker’s question about targeting racial justice protesters proves him to be a liar.
https://alphabetboys.xyz/#season-1

A lot of this effort, which was extensive was going on days before Charleston and the chilling “Jews will not replace us” tiki torch march.

Donald Trump and his minions and masters have so harmed our country. May we heal.

[ancianita]

34. I hear you.

I'll put it more bluntly -- this racist, anti-semitic bias by most law enforcement has to be gotten rid of. It's getting cleaned up in the military, but it's needs to be gotten rid of across the 4,000+ county sheriffs, state highway patrols, and police departments.

Top to bottom, this white nationalism double standard of enforcement has got to stop. A country can't heal while its law enforcers are still infected with fascist power ideologies.

[mahina]

57. Word

[jaxexpat]

37. It's in America's DNA to blow up the threat of black people trying to get a fair playing field.

It was this terror in the hearts of white southerners of a slave uprising which gave us our running template for rural law enforcement by local sheriff. Even to the wide brimmed hat worn by 19th century hostlers, planters, slave catchers and modern deputies.

Regarding the effectiveness of statutory enforcement as a deterrent against actual terrorism, I suppose it's on a par with just about any other self-fulfilling prophecy. We've seen the label, "TERRORIST", readily applied to any group, be they in peaceful protest for civil rights or picketing for wages and working conditions. So long as that group is populated by black and/or brown people there has not been much general discussion or a hearing of much dissent prior to placing that label. Such labeling was codified in the administration of Bush the lesser when his very Aryan "Department of Homeland Security" proclaimed a WAR, on all these brown and black people throughout the Earth. Conversely, when Americans are asked to recognize the concept of terrorist applied to Neo-Nazism/KKK or white nationalism or your local and well-armed "camo and ammo" militia chapter, it's usually difficult and oddly, perhaps intentionally, unfocussed. Some progressives call the white supremacy out but few-to-none of the conservatives will. I think this is because Americans generally, in our heart of hearts, prefer to see ourselves as a white nation. Which we are, but only in the sense that wittingly or not we do whatever we can to ignore our non-white minorities. Still, on the face of it and illogically, our law enforcement community focusses nearly all its energies and its presence, onto the black and brown communities, and we wonder why they would be suspicious of LEO, think LEO untrustworthy, fear LEO as if they were terrorists out to put them under their thumb and prevent their much-anticipated and long-awaited uprising.

[IbogaProject]

22. I don't like over broad use either

I don't like over broad use but I think with rail, power infrastructure and certain other select things should qualify.

[ancianita]

35. I hope judges see it that way.

[IronLionZion]

36. Endless excuses for white terrorists

none of this for brown Americans just living life while "looking like a terrorist".

[JanMichael]

10. Dude lives with his dad about 500ft from tracks. Probably just got tired of the noise

And snapped.

1006 E 66th Pl, Cleveland, 44103 Ohio

It is a dead end street not far from the tracks.

He is 43 and lives with his 70 year old dad in an old house on a run down street

Mental health issues? Probably. Terrorism? Not likely. Too many beers and dad screaming about the train noise interrupting Petticoat Junction? Likely.

[liberal N proud]

15. I grew up living 500 ft from train tracks.

Never was bothered by the noise. My bedroom faced the tracks and I could sleep right through it.
Even slept through a train wreck in the back yard.

Clickity clack all night long.

[Farmer-Rick]

25. I know how quickly you can get use to the noise

I had to get temporary housing between orders while in the Navy. It was near Thanksgiving and no long term rentals were available except right by the railroad tracks.

We stayed there 3 months. By the first week, I stopped hearing the trains. They would come by at night around 3 am. It always woke up my spouse but not me. I never heard them but when my spouse would say out loud, "I can't believe you slept through that." I would suddenly wake up.

[ExWhoDoesntCare]

42. I live about 250 yds from train tracks

Not once in 22 years have I felt any need to attempt derailing the trains running on them.

Nor has my white husband. Or any of our white or brown neighbors.

Just because he's a white male doesn't make it okay for him to be a terrorist.

[liberal N proud]

66. Agreed

[Bluethroughu]

16. Don't down play this. He wanted to hurt people, how many is the question.

Those people are just trying to live their lives and get to work to pay their bills. This would freak out that area or reach farther across the country to scare other commuters or spurn copy cat creeps to do this elsewhere.

He should have just got a job or two to keep himself busy.

[orthoclad]

31. Another East Palestine?

[Bluethroughu]

52. I would not be suprized.

[Major Nikon]

24. Might also be a fired railroad worker

The type of sabotage indicates he had knowledge of how the switching devices work.

[Bluethroughu]

53. He shoved a metal object where the track breaks direction, it's not rocket science.

[vanamonde]

39. Didn't think that one through

Headline: train carrying chlorine gas derails in this guy's backyard.

[Bluethroughu]

13. Holy shit!

Lock this lunatic up forever.

[dalton99a]

19. POS tried to kill people.

[Bluethroughu]

54. He looks crazy eyed.

[Historic NY]

20. He lives in an industrial area and the track are a short distance from his home

they have multiple video of him being in the area. He lives in a house purchased in 1988

[ExWhoDoesntCare]

44. And? So?

Plenty of people live near train tracks and don't try to derail them. I live closer to a line than he does, and neither anyone in our household nor any of our neighbours have even thought about doing something so heinous to the rail line.

And who cares what year the house is from? The last house built in our neighbourhood? 19bloody74. Think that would make it right for one of us to derail the trains running by?

He's a murderous terrorist. Being a white male doesn't change that.

[Historic NY]

51. And so wtf is your problem

it means he was familiar with the area. I live an 1/8 of a mile from industrial tracks. Have a nice day.

[onetexan]

26. Mamas dont let your babies grow up to be anarchists

[eallen]

28. Don't jump to conclusions

Maybe his motives are political.

Maybe something else entirely.

I suggest waiting for the evidence, case by case.

:hippie

[onenote]

32. there always are DUers jumping to conclusions

My suggestion is that you ignore them and wait for actual information to come out.

[mahatmakanejeeves]

59. I said a while back that if I ever found myself

in the position of facing a trial, I would choose to have a bench trial rather than a trial by jury.

Many of the replies in this thread only confirm my that I would be making the correct choice.

[orthoclad]

64. Despite his intentions, the thought

of a rail accident is scary. Lot of toxic and hazardous materials get shipped by rail. Think East Palestine and Lac Megantic.

That said, patience and facts are rewarding. I don't think the DOJ is after MAGA, for one thing.

[ExWhoDoesntCare]

47. He has an agenda

You don't sabotage rail lines--critical infrastructure--without one.

I don't care what the agenda is. Once you attack critical infrastructure and put innocent lives at risk for injury or death, you're a bloody terrorist.

[mahatmakanejeeves]

62. I know of cases where this has been done solely for amusement. NT

[MagickMuffin]

29. I did a search and found several articles and videos

This link has a lot of info.




https://www.cleveland.com/court-justice/2023/10/fbi-arrests-cleveland-man-accused-of-trying-to-cause-train-derailment-by-wedging-metal-in-tracks-track-switches.html

[orthoclad]

30. Trains now. Was the power grid -

A number of terror attacks on substations, including a coordinated plan to plunge a whole city into darkness with multiple attacks (Baltimore).

But their running dogs in Congress raise hell when DOJ addresses Reich wing terror.

DOJ has reluctantly treated an attempt to overthrow the government on J6 like a mafia drug cartel. It's "terror", not "crime". These weren't shoplifters.

There are plenty of Reich wing moles in the FBI, SS, LEO. I bet if they ever get serious it will be environmental activists and union organizers who will be first to feel the hammer.

[FakeNoose]

38. The linked articles don't say anything about him being MAGA

He's just a terrorist and an anarchist, but he's not doing it for Chump. At least we don't know that he's doing it for Chump by what's stated in these news items.

More info is needed before we can assume the motive for this crime.

[ForgedCrank]

41. Is it

just me, or am I failing to see a "MAGA" connection here?

[ExWhoDoesntCare]

48. I'm not seeing it yet, either.

All I know is that people don't attack critical infrastructure this way without a decided agenda.

[Nevilledog]

43. Here's a good resource tracking extremists

The Slow Burn Threatening Our Democracy

https://www.lawfaremedia.org/article/the-slow-burn-threatening-our-democracy

[wnylib]

46. When did the FBI declare "MAGAtry" to be domestic terrorism?

Do you have a link about that FBI declaration? Something besides a vague, dubious claim in the RW Newsweek article that was posted on DU a few days ago?

And how is this arrest due to MAGA terrorism when there is nothing that identifies the politics or motives of the perpetrator?

I agree that it is an act of terrorism because it is an attack on infrastructure that would result in multiple deaths. I just question the claim that the FBI has officially declared MAGAs as domestic terrorists. That is a RW talking point promoted in RW publications like Newsweek and the NY Post to support their complaint that DOJ and the Biden administration are making political attacks on RWers. And I question the claim that this instance was an attack by a MAGA terrorist.

D

[ExWhoDoesntCare]

49. V much in this queue

I'll wait to see what the exact agenda is. He has one, but, right now, it's impossible to know what it is, exactly.

[wnylib]

50. A simple, easy search does not turn up ANY

declaration by the FBI or any other government organization that MAGAs have been declared domestic terrorists.

[EYESORE 9001]

55. Welp...

Exclusive: Donald Trump Followers Targeted by FBI as 2024 Election Nears

The federal government believes that the threat of violence and major civil disturbances around the 2024 U.S. presidential election is so great that it has quietly created a new category of extremists that it seeks to track and counter: Donald Trump's army of MAGA followers.

The challenge for the Federal Bureau of Investigation, the primary federal agency charged with law enforcement, is to pursue and prevent what it calls domestic terrorism without direct reference to political parties or affiliations—even though the vast majority of its current "anti-government" investigations are of Trump supporters, according to classified data obtained by Newsweek.

More…

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/opinion/exclusive-donald-trump-followers-targeted-by-fbi-as-2024-election-nears/ar-AA1hFVH2

[wnylib]

56. I refer you to my #46 where I asked for sources

besides the vague claims in the RW Newsweek article. The article, which was the topic of a recent DU OP, reads like Trump speak, "People are saying ..." It conflates the the FBI's targeting of RW domestic terrorist groups with Trump's claim that DOJ is targeting him and his followers for political reasons. In truth, the FBI is targeting domestic terrorists for their crimes, not for political reasons.

[mahatmakanejeeves]

58. This is a copy of the article from Newsweek.

Repeating foolishness does not confirm it.

The assertion is becoming a part of the DU Lost Cause mentality. Soon we’ll be erecting monuments to it in front of the courthouse. To suggest that it is not true will be regarded as heretical.

[EYESORE 9001]

60. I may be ignorant, but foolish?

I don’t recognize this place sometimes.

[mahatmakanejeeves]

61. The foolishness was on Newsweek's part, not yours.

I had not meant to suggest otherwise.

MSN automatically reran the story without challenging it. So much for MSN as a source.

Collectively, though, this theme has been circulating at DU for three days running. It really needs to die.

[EYESORE 9001]

63. I'll never mention it again

But I’d still like to know more about this one.

[WalterMatthews1776]

65. Registered Democrat

since 2012