"And bombs bursting in air:" a weekend of unusual mortal danger for my family. UPDATED.

[DFW]

Last edited Sun Oct 8, 2023, 03:23 AM - Edit history (1)

A dinner was being held in a social hall/warehouse storage space in a Ukrainian village of about 300 people. Someone told the Russians about it, and Putin must have licked his chops at the opportunity. A missile was sent right into the middle of the dinner, and somewhere between a sixth and a fifth of the village was killed, all civilians. My nephew is still there, and although he was not in this village, with each military setback, Putin is getting his revenge by brutalizing the Ukrainian civilian population to an ever more sadistic degree. If the Republicans get their way, Putin will escape a war crimes trial at Den Haag. I hope he doesn't manage to do it.

Then, down on the Mediterranean, Hamas has decided their grievances were enough to warrant rocket attacks on Israel. Apparently rifle fire is part of the equation, too. My younger daughter and her extended family (her man, their daughters and his three sons) were on a ten day trip down to Israel. From the scenes sent to us last week of water sports at Tel Aviv, we are now getting stories of their children screaming in terror as rocket shells bursting and gunfire has replaced the sound of water skiing and children playing on the beach. They are trying everything the can to get a flight back to Germany, or anywhere else in Europe, for that matter.

I guess one could be forgiven for being so optimistic as to hope that powerful sadists would have realized by now that terrorizing a civilian population for your military/propaganda ends just doesn't achieve it's goal. The Turks didn't eradicate the Armenians, the attack on Guernica didn't make the Basques become fascists or timid, the Vergeltungsraketen (V-1 and V-2) didn't make the British want to join the Nazis or surrender to them, the nail bombs in London didn't make the IRA's cause any more popular, the "ethnic cleansing" didn't maike Milošević a Serbian hero, and these actions won't enhance the reputations or the standing of Putin or Hamas.

I hope I never have to find out what I might contemplate if a member of my family was injured or killed by one of these actions. It's bad enough that the children are screaming in fright. Up to now, they would never have asked who or why. Now, I fear that they will, and so the cycle begins anew.

[hlthe2b]

1. What a literal "wake-up" call this morning. I can only hope for the best for your family members &

all concerned. sigh... It sucks feeling helpless, worried (and angry).

[DFW]

4. Israel apparently has state of the art communications

When they manage to get on their way back here, we should hear of it before the plane leaves. We only hope the children don't suffer any permanent damage. They are pretty resilient, as long as they aren't subjected to seeing body parts flying around. My wife's father was subjected to that at age 18 (one of those body parts was one that used to his), and it affected him (DUH) for life, even though he managed to repress it until the very end of his life, over 50 years after the fact.

[Varaddem]

2. I know everyone here is so sorry to hear that!

Hope your daughter and her family stay safe!

[DFW]

3. When they get back to Europe safely, we'll all breathe a sigh of relief.

Thanks for the comment!

Flights to Europe are, predictably, jammed, and Europeans with big families trying to get out before their scheduled flights are not having an easy time rebooking. German states stagger their vacation times so that the whole country is not on vacation at once, but Hessia, where my daughter lives, has its Fall Break now. Just bad timing, but you could say that about any civilian suddenly caught in a war zone.

[electric_blue68]

5. Yikes! Good luck to your family.

[DFW]

6. Thanks!

The odds are with them, of course, but the odds are with everyone until a missile blows them to bits. We are not taking comfort in the statistics.

[electric_blue68]

7. True, unfortunately. Hopefully they'll stay safe.

[Ptah]

8. I don't know what to add.

[Chainfire]

9. I hope your family gets home safely. I am sorry for the innocent victims.

Events in Ukraine and Israel are, unfortunately, just people being people...

We apparently have a "hateful" gene that is always searching for an excuse to exercise its function. We are always either at war, or preparing for war, and it is not just nations, but in our communities and at times within our on families. Our intelligence and culture, ethics, morals and laws, are supposed to tamp the violence down, but it fails miserably. Rage is a key component to our governments, our religions; we see it in action every day.

I have become disenchanted with the species.

[electric_blue68]

38. you are too cynical for me

[Chainfire]

45. I am sorry if the truth is painful.

[electric_blue68]

48. Er, not necessarily.There are plenty of kind, gentle people in this whole world that either don't

have this "hate gene", or it's so diluted, or weak in them that it'd take an Everest, or half of the Himalayas of (an) experience(s) to move them to a hateful level.

Then there are those who have a short flare of hate that are cognizant, and reject it, diminish it, damp it, and return a level of less anger, or transform it to a rigorous assertiveness.

So, no, I don't buy into your "truth".


And, yeah, I've experienced serious nastiness, even cruelty. No general Pollyanna, here.

[electric_blue68]

49. Er, not necessarily.There are plenty of kind, gentle people in this whole world that either don't

have this "hate gene", or it's so diluted, or weak in them that it'd take an Everest, or half of the Himalayas of (an) experience(s) to move them to a hateful level.

Then there are those who have a short flare of hate that are cognizant, and reject it, diminish it, damp it, and return a level of less anger, or transform it to a rigorous assertiveness.

So, no, I don't buy into your "truth".


And, yeah, I've experienced serious nastiness, even cruelty. No general Pollyanna, here.

[rubbersole]

10. How horrible for your family...

...especially the children. I'm sure you've thought about a safe land route away from danger, but is flying the only option in their situation? I'm with you on my reaction if a family member is injured. Restraint wouldn't be on the top of the list. Good luck to all. Thank you for the post.

[brooklynite]

11. How will Putin face a trial under any circumstances?

Nb: The United States doesn’t recognize ICC jurisdiction in any circumstances.

[malthaussen]

13. The Euopeans do, though. But...

... since neither Ukraine nor Russia acknowledge them, either, sending Putin to the Hague would seem to be a stretch.

-- Mal

[KS Toronado]

12. Sending good vibes for your family members so they return home unharmed physically

[malthaussen]

14. Terrorism rarely works, that's true...

... in fact, it falls so short of its goal, one is tempted to believe that radicals keep using terror only because they're mean-spirited gits who can't think of anything else to do.

Sometimes, terror does work, when applied effectively. The purpose of terror is to cause the enemy's government to crack down on its own people in a futile attempt to stop the attacks and keep their people "safe." The idea is to undermine and disrupt the target government so that it falls of its own inadequacies, not as a result of direct military action, which has little to no chance of success. If not to cause it to fall, create so many disruptions and divisions that it is largely ineffective.

Nope, can't think of a single instance of terror in the past 20-odd years that has had that kind of success.

-- Mal

[yardwork]

19. Good post. /nt

[highplainsdem]

15. I'm so sorry, DFW. Praying they can get a flight home very soon.

[Prairie_Seagull]

16. Put them on a train to a different hub, rent them a car if you have to. Get them safe.

I'll pitch in if needed. Relative to possibilities, I think I know just how you feel. Have they found tickets yet?

[MontanaMama]

17. I'm so sorry your nephew is in harm's way.

This is a mess to be sure. What civilians and especially children are experiencing will not be easily repaired if at all. I worry that their terror will turn to anger and the cycle will indeed begin anew. May those responsible for killing civilians get everything the deserve.

[CaliforniaPeggy]

18. Omigod, my dear DFW!

I am truly alarmed at the situation your family finds itself in. May they find the shelter and transportation they seek, and soon!

My heart goes out to you as you wait out these incomprehensible attacks.

May they all be restored to the peace and tranquility of home.

[yardwork]

20. I'm sorry that this is affecting your family so personally.

I hope everyone will be ok.

[FakeNoose]

21. Putin is a terrorist of the worst caliber

As long as Putin is alive, Ukraine will not be safe. And that's because he'll never stop trying to steal their country from them. As for Israel, the danger is always there from all directions. One wonders how they deal with it on a daily basis.

I hope that you and your family remain safe, my friend.

[Hekate]

22. Oh my dear friend, may all return to safety speedily and soon...

This is not the world I thought we’d be leaving to our children and grandchildren, yet hope abides.



🪷🪷🪷🪷🪷🪷🪷🪷🪷🪷🪷🪷

[Hekate]

23. Hubby has MSNBC on for news of Israel, where he has relatives. Is your daughter still in Tel Aviv?

Is that where this is happening?

[DFW]

32. That is where they were

They just made it home to Frankfurt late last night, CEDT.

Here on German TV, they showed clips, taken and released by Hamas, of their commandoes taking Israeli women hostage, and one doesn‘t have to ponder long for what purpose. This will not end well, since Netanyahu, ashamed by being caught by surprise despite his hardline stance, will be looking to pay the Palestinians back tenfold. Those who suffer most will surely include many who least wanted to attack the Israelis to begin with.

[Trueblue Texan]

24. I don't pray, but I'm thinking peaceful thoughts of safety for your loved ones. nt

[DFW]

31. Neither do we, but we appreciate the sentiments! n/t

[DFW]

25. The latest is that they have closed the Tel Aviv airport.

That means, in all practical terms, they are stuck. Unless they are on a plane to somewhere at this moment. Maybe they can get overland to Eilat, then overland or via ship to Sharm, and then the Egyptians could let the rescue planes from Europe land and take off from there. For now it’s hurry up and wait.

[dixiegrrrrl]

26. thank you for that airport info.

A dear friend of mine hasher son in law stuck in Israel, so keeping double fingers crossed for her and you.

I can only imagine the levels of frantic happening there right now.

[DFW]

29. They did somehow get people out

My daughter and her family texted late last night that they were home.

We don‘t know which airport they flew out of.

[elleng]

27. Oh my goodness!

Reminds of stories we've heard about refugees in the past (as you surely know.)

[Evolve Dammit]

28. I truly hope they are all returned to safety asap. Take care

[DFW]

30. UPDATE: Thanks for the good wishes, all. My daughter and family made it home, though not undamaged.

A couple of the children are still terrified and suffering from PTSD. They are having trouble sleeping, and will not sleep alone. Everyone is hoping they‘ll get over it soon. Some relatives of friends are still texting from underground air raid shelters. Instead of the usual few dozen rockets, this time there were hundreds or thousands. One German TV report said three thousand. If so, WHERE did they come from? When the Israeli forensics are done finding out where those rockets were built, it is a sure thing that children elsewhere will be having sleepless nights as well.

The comparative tranquility of Western Europe is currently being strained by a Russian-backed Serbian troop build-up on the border with Kosovo. All we need now is another Balkan armed conflict on top of everything else.

[highplainsdem]

33. Oh, thank God they're home! Re the children's PTSD - there's a

stress reduction technique that was developed specifically to help kids with PTSD after natural disasters, and it also helps adults. I heard of it first years ago and have used it myself and recommended it to lots of people who later told me it had helped them.

https://www.debbieaugenthaler.com/butterfly-hug-simple-technique-helping-anxiety/

[DFW]

35. I'm sure that will be a priority.

Being back in a familiar environment will help, too, I‘m sure.

My daughter was planning a quick trip to her sister in the USA (NYC), and then on to our friends in Dallas before flying back home. She was then going to go down to Zanzibar for a few days. Zanzibar is predominantly Muslim, but of a far more laid back nature than that of the Hamas Gazans. Besides, she has been there before, and will travel on her German passport.

[chia]

44. Thank you for this.

[highplainsdem]

34. DFW, would you please add the word UPDATE to your OP, with a note at the top of the original text

to let people know about the update in reply 30? When I first saw your thread near the top of the board again, I thought it had probably just been kicked by a reply from DUers concerned about your family, but I checked anyway and I was so happy to find your update in the latest reply here. But others might miss it.

Thanks!

[electric_blue68]

39. Glad everyone is back. Poor, kids, though. And -that- many rockets? Yikes!

[Hekate]

41. 💕💕. Thank God they are home. I am so relieved for you. 💕💕

[Violet_Crumble]

37. Ich spreche scheies Deutsch, aber ich bin froh, dass deine Familie in Sicherheit ist

I've started supplementing my high-school German with some lessons on Duolingo, though Google just taught me how to say 'shit'

I'm glad the kids are safe. I'm also glad you mentioned powerful sadists, though, because that's what the Israeli govt is. None of this happened in a vacuum, which is what you'd believe reading some of the posts at DU. I'm no fan of Hamas or their tactics, but what will happen next is familiar because it's happened so many times before. Israel will look away from allowing its extremists to terrorise Palestinians in the West Bank, and work on flattening Gaza. The deaths will be totally out of proportion to Israeli casualties and even the deaths of small children will be justified by trotting out lame excuses like 'terrorists were hiding behind them'. Which is why I hate Hamas so much. They know what will happen, but they go ahead and do this anyway.

I find what's mostly American hypocrisy on Israel/Palestine and Russie/Ukraine to be sickeningly stupid, and it reminds me constantly of why any country would be stupid enough to have millions of its citizens vote for a narcissistic reality tv star who even from the start didn't hide their authoritarian tendencies.

[electric_blue68]

40. tangential feelings re where your nephew was...

I'm a NYC'r all my life. I love cities, and visited some US favorites. Also Paris through a relative's surprise gift!

Have dear relatives in near by medium - big size towns. Travels across the USA into the deep high desert of Arizona, and via motorcycle (a cousin) high up into The Rockies!

With this all (other than now that I think if it in Hopiland '79, not your typical kind of village) to share the context of most of my life's where I live, and visited experiences - I've never been to a village otherwise, until I was invited to visit my aunt & uncle home to make art w her in a small western, a third way up village in Switzerland in '16.

Pop. around 800+ . So, yeah, thinking of your nephew near to that Ukrainian village it would have been about a third of my relatives' village's people dead, should such terror ever rain upon them. A touch of visceral imagination.

Glad he, and your others are safe.

[DFW]

42. Here in Europe, tiny villages are often close to bigger cities.

„Close“ is relative, of course, but less than an hour‘s drive, though you can‘t compare Germany‘s roads to Ukrainian roads.

[DFW]

43. First talk with our daughter this morning. Sounded like an action movie screenplay.

Some intense juggling went back and forth, but they finally allowed a couple of Lufthansa planes to land from Germany, and that‘s how they got home. If the Palestinians had any surface-to-air missiles, they were smart enough to not use them on passenger planes of European airlines.

The sister of our daughter‘s S.O. is still stuck there, as her flight was later. Apparently Hezbollah launched some attacks this morning from Lebanon, so this was obviously more coordinated than previously thought.

One of their Israeli friends was at some big celebration near the Gaza border. There were something like 4000 people there, and this where the killing and abduction of many Israelis took place. He got to his car, but two armed Hamas guys blocked his way. Rather than risk whatever it was they were planning to do with him, he ran them over. His car was a mess, but at least he escaped and made it home alive. He said he was pretty sure they did not.

I‘ve never been to Israel, but I have been told Tel Aviv is a modern, European-style city. It is hard to imagine that this kind of thing happens less than a two hour drive away, or that they have to be prepared for missiles to fall on them at any moment. My Ukraine-based nephew is in the same situation to some degree, minus the abductions and hostage-taking.

Having escaped the Vietnam War, the closest I have come to anything like this was missing some terror bombings of European airports (Frankfurt, Brussels), but I was never in the thick of it. When I have grandchildren ages 3 and 5 having to go through this, I remember the expression, „it‘s the nature of the beast,“ and have to reflect upon just how little, for all our technological sophistication, we have evolved from being beasts, all the more dangerous for their sophistication. Someone has to do the planning, recruit the attackers, train them, finance their weapons, do the indoctrination, legitimize the cruelty. What blows me away is that so many people find this preferable to going up to the border fence and telling the people on the other side, „hey, let‘s not do this.“

[highplainsdem]

46. I hope your daughter's sister-in-law can get out soon.

The Israeli government had been talking last summer about using AI for military purposes, but I don't know if it's reliable enough yet to help them now, and I'll be curious about whether that had anything to do with the Hamas decision to strike now. I first got online and moderated a political conference in the 198Os, before the end of the Cold War, and one of the subjects of debate then was whether Reagan's
proposed Strategic Defense Initiative or Star Wars - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strategic_Defense_Initiative and https://www.britannica.com/topic/first-strike - might actually lead to a preemptive strike by the Soviets before it could be implemented, if they thought waiting might render their own nuclear deterrent useless. (And there was particular concern about this because there was doubt among scientists that the US could attain any such defense against a nuclear strike at that stage in our technology, but the Soviets might not want to count on our failing and would attack first.)

I've seen a lot of articles this past year, while reading everything I could find on AI, mentioning the risks of terrorists ever using AI, both for cyberstrikes and relatively inexpensive autonomous AI weapons. But I didn't start wondering if the potential use of AI by government forces might lead to terrorist strikes before AI could be implemented, till now. And it may not have been a factor at all. But I haven't seen any explanation of the timing of this attack yet.

The terrorists can't win, and mustn't win. This was a horrendous attack.

[DFW]

47. She was so far safe in an air raid shelter in Tel Aviv

My daughter said practically building and house in Tel Aviv had them as a normal precaution. By the way, I don't know if all buildings now have them in Kyiv, but the one my nephew lives in definitely does, and though his building has not yet been hit, he has to get up and go down there as many as several times a night due to incoming missiles from Russia.

The distances are so small there, it's hard to imagine how quickly one can from one place to another. I've never been, but I'm the only one in my family who hasn't. The husband of my other daughter was born in Russia and lived there until he was 9. His mom then moved to Israel, where he spent most of his youth, and served in the Israeli military. His Hebrew is as fluent, as his Russian. His English is now also fluent, as he breezed through Columbia University undergrad in three years when his mom met an American guy, and moved to New York. We haven't yet talked to him this weekend about his friends back in Israel, but surely there must be some affected.


I know nothing about Jewish holidays, but I looked up a calendar of them, and saw that this weekend was "Simchat Torah" which has something to do with a celebration of the Torah and the reading thereof. A Jewish friend of mine in Belgium learned both Hebrew and Aramaic so that he could read through the whole thing. He said it's not a bible, but more like a vast collection of wisdom. Once he is done reading through it, he starts over again. Anyway, that's a reason, if not the reason, there was so much celebration going on this weekend. There must be something in the mentality of a group organizing such a massive attack on the civilian population during a celebration of a book of wisdom.

The attack(s) were absolutely planned with wreaking devastation on the civilian population in mind. The retaliation will not have the same specific goal in mind, but I doubt Netanyahu will be overly explicit about ordering a maximum precaution to avoid civilian casualties. Not after something like this. The bloodshed has just begun, I fear.

[DFW]

52. The latest was that she had gotten to Istanbul on a Turkish Airlines flight

There are many flights from Istanbul to Germany. It’s just a question of finding one with a free seat. It is the end of the fall school break in several German states, and flights (even some trains) are often fully booked. I had to run down to Spain yesterday, and was lucky to get the last seat on the evening flight back to Düsseldorf. Otherwise, I would have been firced to spend the night and mess up my week’s schedule.

[Marthe48]

51. Thank you for the update

I was hoping to see good news, and missed this post.

Hope you know by now that all of your loved ones are safe.

[Marthe48]

50. Please let us know when your loved ones are safe

Too overwhelming for words.