Watching the videos coming out of Israel today and reading

[Tomconroy]

Descriptions of kidnapped, raped and murdered hostages, I think it fair to say that the two state solution died today.
Israel can not tolerate this terrorism anymore than the US could after 9/11.
What's next? The occupation of Gaza? Maybe dealing with the Hamas masters in Iran somehow?

I'm pretty sure this is an existential moment for Israel.

[FalloutShelter]

1. All I know is it's Biden's fault.

[Marius25]

12. Rick Scott is literally on Twitter saying just that.

[FalloutShelter]

21. Shocker, right!

MSM is all over the “ it’s Biden’s fault” bullshit.

[Cha]

70. Of course he is.. Both Ends Blame

Pres Biden for Everything.

[wnylib]

87. I listened to Biden's speech today on NPR.

Immediately after he finished, a reporter asked, loudly, if this attack was a failure of Biden's intelligence info. He was not taking questions so he did not answer her.

[Cha]

89. Wonder where that reporter was from.?

[wnylib]

90. No visual since it was NPR and their reporters did not identify the

woman who asked the question.

[Cha]

91. Thanks.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

2. "The occupation of Gaza" -- lol what would you say its status is now?

[Tomconroy]

3. Just watch and see. The law of FAFO.

[hlthe2b]

7. No one can defend HAMAS (or its Iranian masters) but kindly don't forget all that has transpired--

Last edited Sat Oct 7, 2023, 02:21 PM - Edit history (1)

even in the past year-- among the Palestinians at the hands of Israelis. A lot of the reporting I've seen makes it seem like violence is unheard of--that this event is beyond unprecedented and without context or history. Indefensible, yes, but there is certainly context. BBC appears a bit more measured, but even Ayman Mohyeldin-- appearing this morning-- with Ali Velshi, referenced the warnings he had received to not venture too far from the rather one-sided view held by most of the network PTB.

Perhaps you have missed the history of occupation of the Gaza? Palestinian territory – encompassing the Gaza Strip and West Bank, including East Jerusalem – has been occupied by Israel since 1967. They left the settlements in 2005, but they control territorial waters and airspace--as well as the northern border, making the evacuation of settlements a bit of an inconsequential point

There is pertinent history to know. There are no sanctified hands in any of this--even if Hamas is rightfully denounced NOW.

[Tomconroy]

9. I'm mainly talking to the visceral reaction that Israelis will

have to these events and the truly shocking videos.
I haven't expressed my own views about the Israel Palestine conflict, which are actually pretty mixed.

[hlthe2b]

10. There is no doubt about that.

[bigtree]

15. wtf did civilians in Gaza do to deserve retaliation?

...they've already been bombed, snatched off the street and detained indefinitely without charges, children killed and maimed by Israeli soldiers and settlers.

When I see this shit in the U.S. I wonder just wtf do we think we're doing advocating for Israelis to retaliate, cheering them on?

It's mostly civilians who will be underneath the bombs, on either side. But there really aren't a great deal of primarily military targets in Gaza, just residential areas full of unarmed Palestinian civilians.

They've been 'finding out' for decades and decades that I've been alive. I wonder how many folks cheering Israel on to more violence have taken the same time to express outrage about the men, women, and children living in the oppressively surrounded Gaza who suffer so many more of these indignities, outrages, and violence at the hands of the Israeli military on a regular basis, especially in retaliation?

I live in America, and I remember when we used to regard this as a tragedy on all sides, and refrained from encouraging violence from either side, even in the face of unthinkable violence, death, and mayhem.

[Celerity]

79. +10000000000000000

[Marius25]

13. There hasn't been anyone occupying Gaza for 14 years.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

20. Fair -- open air prisons aren't necessarily an occupation.

[EX500rider]

30. Does Gaza not share a border with Egypt not under Israeli control? nt

[Marius25]

41. Egypt is blockading Gaza too, yet nobody ever complains about that.

[hlthe2b]

22. No They only control the northern border, the airspace and territorial waters. Not an occupation...

at all (in some parallel universe, at least)

[former9thward]

94. Gaza was not occupied.

What would you say it was?

[rollin74]

4. K&R

[RocRizzo55]

5. Gaza is already occupied

In case you didn’t know

[Tomconroy]

6. You may think it is. And you may be in for a shock.

[hlthe2b]

8. Please read some history. PLEASE!!!!! Gaza (and West Bank) have been occupied since 1967!!!!!!!!!

[Marius25]

14. No, they haven't.

Israel gave Gaza back in 2009. They have not had any presence there since.

[hlthe2b]

19. Not for lack of trying as Israel established 144 settlements in the West Bank, including 100 the UN

considers "illegal." Over 25K Israelis have established settlements in the Golan Heights. And despite the agreement after the 1979 peace agreement with Egypt, Israel held on to settlements in Gaza until 2005, not 2009 (though you might be referring to considerable loopholes not closed until then). Given the frequent Israeli blockade of GAZA and the fact, it controls the northern borders and all territorial airspace and water -- the lack of physical settlements would seem little more than a technicality.

[Igel]

42. Settlements, control of government, the police, taxation, military presence ...

It doesn't help that the official government at the time picked up and left under duress, as well.

[Marius25]

43. Egypt is blockading Gaza too, but nobody complains about that.

The Golan Heights belongs to Israel - Syria lost it when they attacked Israel during the 6 day war.

[hlthe2b]

47. Again, I refuse to argue with those who will not examine the excesses on both sides.

And that is quite clearly you on this subthread, at least.

[toesonthenose]

25. When Israel evacuated the settlements, the first thing the Pals did was destroy the hothouses.

That should tell you all you need to know. Handed the keys to a vibrant industry and destroyed it all within days.

[EX500rider]

32. Gaza has not been occupied by Israel since 2005 nt

[hlthe2b]

34. If you read the subthread before posting:

Not for lack of trying as Israel established 144 settlements in the West Bank, including 100 the UN
considers "illegal." Over 25K Israelis have established settlements in the Golan Heights. And despite the agreement after the 1979 peace agreement with Egypt, Israel held on to settlements in Gaza until 2005, not 2009 (though some might be referring to considerable loopholes not closed until then). Given the frequent Israeli blockade of GAZA and the fact, it controls the northern borders and all territorial airspace and water -- the lack of physical settlements would seem little more than a technicality.

If those living in GAZA are fully contained/controlled, it is merely semantics as to whether or not they are "occupied." A difference without distinction. I don't think it should require ANY OF US to have experienced such full containment ourselves to understand this.

[EX500rider]

35. Impossible for Israel to blockade Gaza when they don't control the border with Eqypt.

[hlthe2b]

38. Hardly. And they have in all the impacts that implies.

I don't put Israelis or Palestinians over the other. I see the "sins" committed by both. It sounds like that may not be the case with you if you can't recognize the plight of vanquished people at the hands of a massive force. Which has left them abysmally vulnerable to the terroristic HAMAS.

It has always been curious that so many among us can see the sins of the US, our people, and our policies, but refuse to see similar with respect to Israel. I just don't get it.

[EX500rider]

39. The fact is Gaza could do all the trade they need thru the Egyptian border...

...if they were good neighbors with Eygpt, but is Eygpt has found their main export is terrorism.

[hlthe2b]

52. "They" is HAMAS but I guess you just lump the entire population together.

Easier that way, I guess if you want to justify persecuting an entire vanquished people.

[EX500rider]

74. Maybe voting Hamas in in the 1st place was a bad idea

Though not like they are the only terrorist group in Gaza.

Palestine Islamic Jihad
Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigade
Harakat al-Sabireen
etc

If you let terrorists be your government don't be surprised when bad things happen.

[hlthe2b]

75. I can't wait until you educate all of us on how they could have stopped them.

Some real parallels in history which I'll refrain from citing.

[EX500rider]

76. yes, no way to overthrown a unpopular government, never been done in history

[hlthe2b]

77. Your advocating violent coups is noted. Is that what you think the US should do? The world asks

how the US could ever have elected Trump and his terroristic MAGATs... after all, and our final reckoning is yet to come.

Apparently, you think the overthrow of a Hamas-controlled and heavily armed government--not to mention all the other terrorist groups you cite-- by the civilian populace-- is as matter-of-fact as your gun-toting cartoon avatar.

[EX500rider]

78. Advocating violent coups against terror orgs who never hold elections again..

....and keep starting wars with their bigger better armed neighbor?
Yes.
Just like the Germans & the Japanese would have been better off doing so.

[hlthe2b]

80. Who has the guns among the populace in the region? Hmm? It really isn't like your cartoon avatar.

This is beyond ridiculous and you seem incapable of serious discussion of the real issues. Bye.

[Celerity]

103. The United Nations disagrees with you and others

https://www.ochaopt.org/



The occupied Palestinian territory (oPt) is a protracted political crisis characterized by 55 years of Israeli military occupation. This crisis is exacerbated by a lack of adherence to international humanitarian and human rights law, internal Palestinian divisions, and the recurrent escalation of hostilities between Israeli forces and Palestinian armed groups. The results are chronic protection concerns and humanitarian needs which will continue in the absence of a sustainable political solution and opportunities for further development. At the same time, the oPt has undergone rapid demographic growth and urbanization, trends that will continue for the foreseeable future. The absence of and barriers to livelihood opportunities are subsequently driving a cycle of aid-dependency and reliance on negative coping strategies to meet basic needs. The high reported levels of debt, and use of savings to meet basic needs further exacerbate the financial precariousness of households and may reduce their resilience or ability to recover from future shocks.

In the Gaza Strip, the Israeli occupation and years of movement restrictions, including an Israeli-imposed blockade, and recurrent escalations between Israeli forces and Palestinian armed groups have contributed to dire living conditions. In June 2007, after the 2006 legislative elections and following the takeover of Gaza by Hamas, the Israeli authorities implemented a blockade citing security concerns, virtually isolating Palestinians in Gaza, 2.2 million people as of 2023, from the rest of the oPt and the world more broadly. This land, sea and air blockade on Gaza intensified previous restrictions, imposing strict limits on the number and specified categories of people and goods allowed through the Israeli-controlled crossings. Restrictions imposed by the Egyptian authorities on the movement and access of people and goods at Rafah, the Gaza-Egypt crossing, further exacerbate the situation. Rapid population growth, coinciding with challenges to development gains and limited resources, has resulted in further deterioration of living standards and development prospects in Gaza.

In the West Bank, including East Jerusalem, Israel’s military occupation continues to impede basic human rights of Palestinians. Under the Oslo Accords, most of the West Bank was divided into East Jerusalem and Areas A, B and C, whereby each area is governed by different administrative and security regulations. In 2002, the Israeli authorities initiated the construction of a barrier, 712 kilometres long, with the stated aim of preventing violent attacks inside Israel by Palestinians from the West Bank. In 2004, the International Court of Justice found the route of the Barrier to be illegal where it runs inside the West Bank. It is now a key component of a range of restrictions imposed by the Israeli authorities on the movement of Palestinians, which are implemented using physical obstacles, permit requirements and the designation of areas as “restricted” or “closed” to be used as firing or military zones. The Barrier has transformed the geography, economy, and social life of Palestinians living in the West Bank, including East Jerusalem. The geographic and administrative fragmentation in the West Bank isolates families and communities from each other and from needed services, directly affecting the wellbeing, both physical and psychosocial, of Palestinians.

More generally, the ongoing conflict, the conduct of hostilities by Israeli forces, Hamas, the Palestinian Islamic Jihad and other armed groups, where concerns have been raised on indiscriminate, disproportionate or otherwise unlawful use of force, alongside a series of occupation-related practices, including the possible excessive use of force, demolitions, evictions, settlement expansion and settler-related violence – all drive insecurity, reverse and prevent socioeconomic progress, breed a climate of mistrust and tension between Palestinians and Israelis, and undermine political solutions. Moreover, the intra-Palestinian divide between Hamas (in Gaza) and the Fatah-led Palestinian Authority (in parts of the West Bank) that began in 2007 remains unresolved, deepening territorial fragmentation between both areas, and reducing the capacity of local institutions in Gaza to deliver basic services. Political divisions and a sense of disenfranchisement in the West Bank are further entrenched given the absence of elections since 2006, the dismissal of the Palestinian Legislative Council in 2018 and the issuance of Presidential decrees.

https://web.archive.org/web/20120508013916/http://www.un.org/News/ossg/hilites/hilites_arch_view.asp?HighID=2059

GAZA STRIP CONTINUES TO BE REGARDED AS PART OF OCCUPIED PALESTINIAN TERRITORY

Asked about the status of Gaza, the Spokesperson said that under resolutions adopted by both the Security Council and the General Assembly on the Middle East Peace Process, the Gaza Strip continues to be regarded as part of the occupied Palestinian Territory. He said the United Nations would accordingly continue to refer to the Gaza Strip as part of the occupied Palestinian Territory until such time as either the General Assembly or the Security Council take a different view.

also see

UpFront - Reality Check: Gaza is still occupied

[Tomconroy]

105. Citing "United Nations" as a definitive source on this issue is a joke.

[Celerity]

107. No, the UN is not a joke on this, and I also posted another discussion that takes on multiple claims

made by those who try to argue that Gaza is not occupied.

[toesonthenose]

24. Yeah, by Hamas.

[hlthe2b]

57. Yes and blockaded there/trapped there by Israel.

[former9thward]

95. They are not "trapped".

I have been to the main Gaza crossing entrances/exits. People from Gaza go into Israel everyday. They go to work, shop, trade and seek medical treatments.

[hlthe2b]

96. Moment in time fallacy--common in those who don't learn history (or statistics, for that matter).

In the past, Israel has implemented blockades. But feel free to tell us all how your day or days or week or weeks or even a month near the Gaza crossing is more accurate than decades of the historical record. I'm sure you will.

[former9thward]

97. At least I don't get my information from people who have never been there.

[hlthe2b]

98. Nor do I. How ridiculous. So apparently you think facts are to be ignored if you did not witness

yourself personally and that reporters report that which they never observe and history is written by those who dream it up? Umm, ok. A bit like the tourists who tell the locals everything about their locale, state, country, and history, because they actually visited for five minutes. But, tell me, did you learn all that AFTER visiting a Holiday Inn Express?

[former9thward]

99. Seems like you are projecting...

[hlthe2b]

100. Another nonsequitur I see

[TexasDem69]

11. Hamas has ensured that there will be thousands of deaths

With their terrorism. The US position is clear. https://il.usembassy.gov/statement-from-president-joe-biden-condemning-terrorist-attacks-in-israel/

“The United States unequivocally condemns this appalling assault against Israel by Hamas terrorists from Gaza, and I made clear to Prime Minister Netanyahu that we stand ready to offer all appropriate means of support to the Government and people of Israel.”

[bigtree]

26. what will actually be accomplished by retaliatory bombings

...of what will undoubtedly be residential areas full of unarmed civilians?

This isn't Germany in WWII, or Japan.

The U.S. should be encouraging a cessation of ALL violence. The posture today, though, is just auguring for more violence against unarmed civilians, and more war.

[TexasDem69]

27. Hamas hides behind civilians

And as the US has said, Israel has the right to defend itself. And I expect it will do so

[bigtree]

31. we live here.

...there's absolutely no excuse for Americans to encourage violence from either side.

We should be asserting that Palestinian civilians have a right to protection from violent attacks, as well.

We used to understand that both sides' violence begat more violence. Now it's all just about Israel's civilians having that right and expectation of safety from attacks.

We can just ignore the fact that Israeli soldiers regulary snatch and detain Palestinians without charges; and that their lives are as under occupation, if not technically in fact.

We're not Israel. We need to make sure we're not just encouraging more violence there, even though many in this country without a stake in that struggle are advocating for it today.

[TexasDem69]

62. Hamas is responsible for any resulting deaths

And Israel absolutely has the right to defend itself from terrorism

[bigtree]

71. no one has a right to kill unarmed civilians

...and in many ways, it's that same military overreaction that's expected to come from Israel which has exacerbated the violence.

Back and forth. Violence and retaliation. The U.S. interest in this should be to urge a cessation of violence on all sides.

It's always amazing to me how much stock people put in killing civilians to achieve an end to warring.

As our own Abe Lincoln said of America's strength:

What constitutes the bulwark of our own liberty and independence? It is not our frowning battlements, our bristling sea coasts, the guns of our war steamers, or the strength of our gallant and disciplined army. These are not the reliance against the resumption of tyranny in our fair land.

All of them may be turned against our liberties, without making us stronger or weaker for the struggle. Our reliance is in the love of liberty which God has planted in our bosoms. Our defense is the preservation of the spirit which prizes liberty as the heritage of all men, in all lands, everywhere.

Destroy this spirit, and you have planted the seeds of despotism around your own doors. Familiarize yourselves with the chains of bondage, and you are preparing your own limbs to wear them.

Accustomed to trample on the rights of those around you, you have lost the genius of your own independence, and become the fit subjects of the first cunning tyrant who rises among you.

[TexasDem69]

82. Israel responding with force to Hamas' terrorism isn't overreaction

But any civilian deaths are the direct result of Hamas’ terrorism.

[bigtree]

93. before that it was the PLO

..it's never been about the Palestine people.

It's a war between the leaders of each side, waged by casting their respective citizenry against each other.

“The war, therefore if we judge it by the standards of previous wars, is merely an imposture. It is like the battles between certain ruminant animals whose horns are incapable of hurting one another....they are not fighting against one another at all.

The war is waged by each ruling group against its own subjects, and the object of the war is not to make or prevent conquests of territory, but to keep the structure of society intact. The very word "war," therefore, has become misleading. It would probably be accurate to say that by becoming continuous war has ceased to exist. ___ 1984

[EX500rider]

33. Israel certainly has the right to strike at missile launching locations, plus..

...weapons storage, Hama's command & control etc.

[bigtree]

36. and they will kill civilians in the process

...women, children, unarmed and unthreatening civilians.

Looking forward to all of the calls to end that violence.

We are not Israel. We don't have to face the consequences of our tough guy calls for retaliation.

There really isn't a direct association between the civilians killed by Israeli bombs and whatever Hamas does. Most people take that for granted when talking about Israeli lives and the abuses of the Israeli military.

We can rationalize all of that here in the U.S. because for most of us this is a video game, or some kind of reality show where we think we have a right to weigh in on the side of killing someone in this unending cycle of violence and recrinination.

In our reality here in the U.S., we have the ability to denounce violence on all sides with as little consequence as the cheerleaders. We have a responsibility to advocate for peace, because we are able.

[EX500rider]

37. Israel is a democracy, unlike Hama's run Gaza.

Their voters will demand the Govt to strike as would any populace under missile attack from their neighbor.

[bigtree]

40. yeah

...Americans cheering on and encouraging Israeli retaliation need to know that Palestinian civilians will be killed with as much viciousness as the images of Hamas violence folks are anguishing over today.

An unending cycle of violent attacks and retaliation.

[EX500rider]

44. They react as any country under attack from their neighbors.

How would the US react if Mexico fired thousands of missiles at US civilian targets and came across the border and killed & kidnapped US civilians?

[bigtree]

46. we are not Israel or Palestine

...I would also note that we don't militarily oppress Mexico and we both recoginze the others' right to exist in peace.

Oct. 20, 2022
U.S. Army North, Joint Task Force Civil Support begin annual exercise with Mexican Army
https://www.jbsa.mil/News/News/Article/3195292/us-army-north-joint-task-force-civil-support-begin-annual-exercise-with-mexican/

[hlthe2b]

59. 👆 This👆

[Happy Hoosier]

60. I'm not unsympathetic to that view, but...

… in a practical sense, Israel WILL strike. And I think Hamas has created a pretext for crushing oppression of at least Gaza. There is plenty of blame to pass around there, but Hamas has unleashed a wave of death and violence that isn‘t going to go unanswered.

[UTUSN]

16. "existential" - potentially for all of us. Will Israel bomb Iran?

[roamer65]

17. More than likely...YES.

[Igel]

45. Less than a 50% chance, I'd say, given just what's public. n/t

[roamer65]

49. Longer it goes, the more likely it becomes.

I think this is the spread of the ME regional instability we have seen for 10 plus years.

[moonshinegnomie]

108. if real evidence is produced showing iran was involved then

israel will remove irans leadership. this is a country that spend 2 decades tracking down and killing the terrorists of munich. they will do the same to iran if they were involved.

[Amishman]

18. I don't think the two state solution died today

I think the idea of a two state solution while Hamas still exists died today.

Also the idea of a more tolerant and compassionate Israel died today.

This will go far beyond prior years Israeli retaliation for Hamas strikes.

[hlthe2b]

23. and Netanyahu...

[Recycle_Guru]

29. agreed

[Igel]

51. HAMAS is firmly "from the river to the sea" thinkers.

Firmly with Iran in worshiping the dhimminishing of all things Jewish, so to speak, both because it's a righteous goal (they'd say) but also because an inferior group humiliated the "best nation" and does so to this day.

While HAMAS has any say, there cannot be side-by-side peace, there can only be abject domination and the required submission, to restore the proper order to the world.

This has always been so. This was obvious 20 years ago. There's a strain of religious or cultural or ideological supremacy present in many cultures. Now it rides high, now it hides in the shadows; but when it gets mixed in with grievance and wounded nationalism, it's especially virulent and it almost always ends badly. That can be German, it can be Russian, it can be Muslim (since for many that's the "real" identity, not trivialities like "Palestinian" or "Persian&quot .

[Recycle_Guru]

28. I think Hamas will be hunted down like al queda and ISIS now

Last edited Sat Oct 7, 2023, 06:18 PM - Edit history (1)

they are done as a political organization

[roamer65]

50. We are significantly closer to a Middle Eastern war today.

If Hezbollah comes in from Lebanon, definitely so.

The hand of Putin is in this action. He wants more instability in the world.

[bigtree]

54. all the more reason for the U.S. to encourage a cessation of violence

...on all sides.

Better that than to encourage more back and forth violence.

[roamer65]

56. We aren't an impartial broker.

I think Turkey, Jordan or Egypt are better suited to get both sides talking.

Hopefully the King of Jordan steps in to help.

[Recycle_Guru]

88. yes. Putin, Bannon, Trump

[Igel]

58. It'll be harder.

Granted, AQ had ISI support, while ISIS funding is a bit more hidden from public view (probably because it uses fewer secular sources than the ISI or maybe because those involved are more faithful to the cause).

HAMAS gets private aid routed through charities (since zakat is good for many "charitable" works, including defense of the faith) but also support from Iran. You help Iran bring in money, it will help Iran's "charitable foreign works" to spread the faith and defend the faith. Even when Iran was in serious economic trouble, they managed to keep their charitable works in action--but with reduced funding. Pressurize the cash pipeline and while the pipeline may gush cash that'll yield a gush of blood, too.

Where's God's Party in all of this--it must be getting ready for a really good bash.

[DavidDvorkin]

53. They've slipped before.

[hlthe2b]

63. Not sure what you are implying, but I've seen no one say Israel does not have the right to defend

itself--which they absolutely DO. I see only those emphasizing that the context and history of this entire abysmal situation need to be accurately discussed. That includes making clear that this was HAMAS--a terrorist faction funded and fully supported by Iran, not the entire Palestinian people, who have been at the mercy and used as the human shields of HAMAS-- for decades. So stop with the "masks slipping" crap. That is so out of line here.

[Tomconroy]

66. Nothing similar has happened on the West Bank yet.

Although judging by Twitter Hamas is trying to get something going.

[hlthe2b]

68. Yup. Yet.

[BannonsLiver]

73. Recollections may vary.

[Behind the Aegis]

65. Like clockwork.

Eventually, attacks against Jews around the world will begin, and, again, like clockwork, the perpetrators will be "excused".

[PCIntern]

61. I normally don't post in Re: Israel because I've been vilified

By some here over the years and I’m tired of dealing with it but this is a very great exception.

As many have said today, this is their 9/11. You cannot discuss equivalency of the Israelis and the militant killer groups such as Hamas and Hezbollah, any more than you can discuss equivalency of Donald Trump and Joe Biden. They will now see the enormous and overwhelming capabilities of a country which once again, like Yom Kippur fifty years ago, was taken by surprise, and made clearly faulty assumptions.

I am old enough to remember the Six Day War, and how many otherwise intelligent and gifted people we’re hoping that the Arab coalition would “make things right“ over there, the people having been “displaced“. When the Israelis annihilated the Egyptian Air Force for starters and proceeded to militarily humiliate the Pan-Arabist efforts of Nasser, people had to concede that Israel was a force to be reckoned with. Well, nothing has changed. I would be surprised if Netanyahu, who has been looking for a real excuse to do this, did not embark upon a campaign to annihilate Hamas, the entire body politic, much as the United States annihilated the Symbionese Liberation Army when they kidnapped that judge from the courtroom and murdered him.

The second time in fifty years…Israel only gets one fatal mistake. They know this and hey are on the warpath and because of who the PM is, it’s most likely going to be merciless.

[Johnny2X2X]

64. 3838 deaths to 168

Since 2005, 168 Israelis and 3838 Palestinians have been killed in this conflict. Doesn’t excuse the attack from Hamas, but is also worth mentioning.

[DavidDvorkin]

67. Israelis, not Israelites.

[Mosby]

69. What's so special about 2005?

1000 Israelis were murdered between 2000 and 2005.

24,000+ Israelis have died defending their country.

[TexasDem69]

83. Why?

Does that excuse Hamas’ terrorism?

[Johnny2X2X]

85. What?

I literally posted that this doesn’t excuse the Hamas attack.

[TexasDem69]

86. Sorry

My question is why is this worth mentioning? I don’t understand how these deaths over the past 18 or so years are relevant to Hamas’ terrorism.

[EllieBC]

92. They if you're trying to derail

the conversation. Or make people look at something else.

[Cha]

72. It was Stupid & Suicidal to Attack

Israel u.. wth did they think would happend?

[Bmoboy]

81. Just a thought

As I listened and watched the reports from lsrael and Gaza, I kept thinking how it reminded me of a prison riot.

Gangs in a prison, established to dominate their fellow prisoners, sensing they have nothing to lose, agitated and motivated by decades of senseless violence, strike out in a suicidal spasm of retribution and macho insanity.

[brettdale]

84. Faux news just blamed

Biden

Yeppers.

[RANDYWILDMAN]

101. Israel is no angel

The US are their main financial supporters

Neither side is invested in a two state system including Israel.

Has Israel ever stopped building settlements in the west bank ????

[Tomconroy]

102. And people on DU complain about bothsiderism.

Time to choose sides.

[RANDYWILDMAN]

104. Why ?

Israel refuses to stop building on disputed lands

The US supports Israel with money

I think the people of Israel, Gaza and the West bank want peace, I don't think their leaders do...

Don't quite see what you are advocating for ?

[Tomconroy]

106. I stand with Israel like Joe Biden said today.

[RANDYWILDMAN]

110. We can disagree can't we

My country Supports Israel but they Also supported a Pinochet lead Chile. (that didn't work out so well, did it ?)

We need to talk more about both sides of these issues

Israel and Palestine have many issues, but if we don't see both sides of the issues they will never coexist

We as a country focus a lot on Israel (the good guy) against Palestine the (bad guy ) far too much

Let's talk about how both sides can work to coexist, it seems like you are not interested in having that conversation ? Am I reading that wrong ?

Follow and support Israel or else...

[Tomconroy]

111. Yes. You are reading that wrong.

But the rights and wrongs of what happened today are clear.
PS: Did you notice Palestinians on the West Bank had no part in what happened today?

[moonshinegnomie]

109. after 9/11 we went nuts

attacking everything we could. that was after an attack that killed 3000 people.

the hamas attack killed 300. in a country of less than 10 million people. that would be like 10k people in the US. imagine what our response would be.

I think this is the end of hamas and anyone else involved. Israel is going to erase them from the planet

[RocRizzo55]

113. I think

That Israel is going to erase ALL Palestinians, Hamas or not. It’s what Bibi said he wanted to do.

[ZonkerHarris]

112. Israel will never going to agree to a 2 state solution. Bibi's policies led to all this.