A stunning infographic from UN on Israel & Palestine

[AntivaxHunters]

This is something else
Here's the article https://www.statista.com/chart/16516/israeli-palestinian-casualties-by-in-gaza-and-the-west-bank/]

[JI7]

1. Hamas uses civilians aa human shields

[AntivaxHunters]

2. Very true

[wnylib]

28. Your OP headline is misleading.

The graph is published by Statista, not by the UN. Statista collects data and produces graphs, charts, and reports.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statista

[kevinore]

36. You might want to check with the UN data

Statista does use valid data. In this case, it comes from the United Nations Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs https://www.ochaopt.org/data/casualties, which matches the numbers in the graph.

[wnylib]

38. I'm just advocating for truth up front in posting.

The OP should have said that Statista has produced a graph from UN data.

[electric_blue68]

8. That is so cowardly, and plain wrong. (No support for Netanyahu, either)

Oh, and ai was wondering why such a high injury count on the Palestinian side?

Is that many human shields? Or IAF action?

[PhylliPretzel]

13. There have been many documented cases

of Israeli soldiers using Palestinian children, both in the West Bank and Gaza, as human shields. All participants in war commit crimes against civilians.

[Beastly Boy]

18. Link, please?

If you know these instances are documented, you must know how to locate this documentation.

[progressoid]

35. I hadn't heard about this either, so I Googled it.

This is 10 years old but apparently it happened.

Palestinian children tortured, used as shields by Israel: U.N.

Reuters June 20, 2013 6:25 AM Updated 10 years ago

GENEVA (Reuters) - A United Nations human rights body accused Israeli forces on Thursday of mistreating Palestinian children, including by torturing those in custody and using others as human shields.

...snip...


During the 10-year period, an estimated 7,000 Palestinian children aged 12 to 17, but some as young as nine, had been arrested, interrogated and detained, the U.N. report said.

Many are brought in leg chains and shackles before military courts, while youths are held in solitary confinement, sometimes for months, the report said.

It voiced deep concern at the “continuous use of Palestinian children as human shields and informants”, saying 14 such cases had been reported between January 2010 and March 2013 alone.

Israeli soldiers had used Palestinian children to enter potentially dangerous buildings before them and to stand in front of military vehicles to deter stone-throwing, it said.

“Almost all those using children as human shields and informants have remained unpunished and the soldiers convicted for having forced at gunpoint a nine-year-old child to search bags suspected of containing explosives only received a suspended sentence of three months and were demoted,” it said.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-palestinian-israel-children/palestinian-children-tortured-used-as-shields-by-israel-u-n-idUSBRE95J0FR20130620

[BidenRocks]

20. True or False

The vast majority have nothing to do with this,
Most are also victims.
Like Vietnam. Which is the enemy?

[wnylib]

30. If you can't produce links to back up that claim, you should delete your post.

[AkFemDem]

3. The same UN that Iran, Russia and China are in?

The one that refuses to condemn the human rights violations and aridities perpetuated this week by Hamas on Israel?

Sorry, I’m a little cynical.

https://apnews.com/article/un-security-council-israel-palestinians-hamas-us-424d0e859ca5a815f86203208416e51d

[wnylib]

32. You should be cynical. The chart was produced

and published by Statista, not by the UN. Stst8sta is a company that collects data and produces graphs, charts, and reports. Its primary market is business and finance, but it also produces materials for academics and research.

Here's a look at Statista. The info in the graph might be accurate, but I am wondering the OP presented it as produced by the UN instead of by Statista.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statista

[mahina]

40. I don't understand the chart. The numbers dont make any sense

It must be in thousands in the little inset box w flag icons but i dont see where it says so. Do you understand it? Thanks.

[edisdead]

4. Oh well in that case its no big deal

And yeah that was sarcasm.

[David__77]

5. The costs of the conflict have been so high.

…

[lapfog_1]

6. how many of those palestinians

died as a result of Israelis attacking a concert and executing unarmed people trying to escape? Picking them off as they tried to flee? 200?

some things are just not part of any equation.

I don't like the "open air prison" that is the gaza strip... I really don't like the hard line government in Israel. But Hamas deserves whatever is coming their way. This attack did not advance the Palestinian cause.

[AntivaxHunters]

7. Fair point

But at the same time I tried to see if there was a more recent infographic of this but didn't come across one. This one is from 2020

[roamer65]

9. Dead is dead.

Sad that people don’t see the deaths equally.

[Big Blue Marble]

10. What will advance the Palestinian cause?

They have been abandoned by most of the world. If they're quiet, they are ignored and suffer in silence.
If they become violent, they are condemned and vilified. No one speaks for them and they cannot speak
for theirselves as no one cares.

[Cha]

11. HAMAS Terrorists Attacks on

Innocent Men Women and Children Sure as Fuck didn't "advance" them.

[Big Blue Marble]

14. No actually these horrific attacks endanger Palestinians lives as well.

But I ask the question after nearly 80 years who will help these people have autonomy?
They have been abandoned by the world and they know it.

[brush]

33. No ethnic group puts up with apartheid for forever.

[wnylib]

37. This is true. You need to look back at the history of the establishment of Israel

in 1948 to see how Palestinians ended up where they are today. They rejected the offer of an independent state for themselves in a two state solution to breaking up the old British Mandate of Palestine. Instead, they claimed the entire former British territory for themselves and vowed to destroy Israel to achieve that end. They they allied themselves with surrounding Middle East nations in wars and terrorist attacks against Israel.

Israel retaliated with severe consequences. Hamas, the PLO, and other groups have kept up the Palestinian hatred for the existence of Israel and encourage terroristic acts. Israel has become hyper defensive and inflexible in its treatment of Palestinians. So, yes, Palestinians suffer under Israeli occupation. The outside world needs to intervene to broker enforceable resolutions on both sides. But Palestinians initiated the hostility and attacks on Israel from the start, 75 years ago. For many years, they refused to negotiate at all.

Most of today's Palestinian people were not around at that time. They only know what they are told by older generations and Hamas.

[mahina]

41. If I'm not careful about it, I can still be angry with Britain for what they did to my great great

Grands. My grandfather was still angry when he died, and we learn these things.

[Hieronymus Phact]

16. PEACE is the answer.

Their leadership walked away from every peace accord for decades. They have left the Israelis at the table numerous times. I remember when Arafat walked out on Clinton, I remember when Abbas walked out on Olmert. It's never perfect enough.
The Israelis haven't been perfect either, but they've been much more amenable to the idea than the Palestinians have.
When the occupation began in '67 after the 6 day war the Israelis offered unconditional peace. The Arabs/Palestinians said no. It's been no different since.
They need to get over their loss. They lost the war, their 'friends' don't care about them, and never really did, the Zionist entity isn't going anywhere. It's over, even an imperfect peace is better than endless occupation and tragic never ending war.

[Big Blue Marble]

19. It is impossible to negotiate from a position of weakness.

And that is where the Palestines have been since 1046. They have never been offered
a true autonomous state. They have continued to lose the remaining land that was to them in the
original UN partition. The Israelis never intended to share Palestine. They always intended
ethnically cleanse Palestine of all Palestinians and at least those in the far-right still do.

Most of these people live quiet lives of desperation. How cruel to say they should just get over it.
That desperation is what puts the lives of Israelis most at risk.

[Hieronymus Phact]

29. You're wrong about a few things...

It's not impossible to negotiate, that's a BS excuse, it's just impossible to get everything you want from a position of weakness. And what's the alternative? They are the weaker side. They lost the war. Should they be given an air force, and have their armies rebuilt just so they can negotiate from some imagined position of strength? Did we do that for japan when they lost? Did we do that for Germany? Do you really think they would then choose to negotiate?

The Israelis were in fact planning on a large Arab population (around 45%) during the war of independence, this is documented. It was only later that it became clear that it wasn't going to happen, and the civic planning boards were told to make other plans.
Its just propaganda and historical revisionism to say They always intended ethnically cleanse Palestine. Many Israelis and Arabs too begged them to stay, but many simply fled. Some left out of fear of being a minority, and some fled to make war easier. And some were driven out as a matter of Israeli survival as result of that war. This is all well documented in actual history books. If that was the plan all along what stopped the Israelis from driving out the current Arab-Israeli population since '48?

How can the Israelis be on the hook for things that happened in 1046 before there were any "Palestinians" in the modern sense?

They were offered a autonomous state, they rejected that because it would coexist along side an autonomous Israel and that was unacceptable. They gambled it all and they lost. (When i say "they" i mean the Arab league, not necessarily the local Palestinians who were used as pawns.)

When i say get over it i mean Get over the dream of eradicating the Israeli state.

Peace is the only Answer. in time it could lead to whatever autonomy you envision, but the alternative only leads to more destruction.

[Big Blue Marble]

44. The evidence does not back your claims.

Your simplified version whitewashes the fact that Israel was founded in terrorism and violence
that led to the expulsion

https://www.theguardian.com/news/2021/may/18/a-jewish-case-for-palestinian-refugee-return

"The Israeli historian Benny Morris notes that David Ben-Gurion, soon to be Israel’s first prime minister, “clearly wanted as few Arabs as possible in the Jewish State”. As early as 1938, Ben-Gurion had declared: “I support compulsory transfer.” His logic, concludes Morris, was clear: “Without some sort of massive displacement of Arabs from the area of the Jewish state-to-be, there could be no viable ‘Jewish’ state.

The inhabitants where expelled by the thousands with violence and acts of terrorism by the
Haganah and other militant groups. And then their homes and land was confiscated.

" "The scale of the land theft was astonishing. When the UN passed its partition plan in November 1947, Jews owned roughly 7% of the territory of Mandatory Palestine. By the early 50s, almost 95% of Israel’s land was owned by the Jewish state."

Your very statement: "How can the Israelis be on the hook for things that happened in 1046 before there were any "Palestinians" in the modern sense?" is racist. These were people living both in their villages an in
urban neighborhoods driven from their homes. 1000's died and many more were injured. Rape was common
and looting was rampant. It does not matter what you choose to call them. They were ethnically cleansed from their land and their homes.

[Hieronymus Phact]

45. So i'm a racist now for asking why the Isrealis are on the hook for events of 1000 years ago?

The Palestinian people (Arabic: الشعب الفلسطيني, ash-sha'ab il-filastini) are an Arabic-speaking people with family origins in the region of Palestine. Since 1964, they have been referred to as Palestinians (Arabic: الفلسطينيين, al-filastiniyyin), but before that they were usually referred to as Palestinian Arabs (Arabic: العربي الفلسطيني, al-'arabi il-filastini). During the period of the British Mandate, the term Palestinian was also used to describe the Jewish community living in Palestine. -wikipeida

I'll repeat without the quotes:
How can the Israelis be on the hook for things that happened in 1046 before there were any Palestinians or Israelis in the modern sense? You didn't answer that, and instead chose to call me a racist.

And i covered the expulsion in my statement, which you righteously ignored. You and others love quoting Benny Morris but you never want to include his conclusions because it's an inconvenient truth: They were expelled because they left the Jews no choice for their own survival in a war they chose to initiate. Horrible things happen in war. The answer is not to dredge up things that happened 1000 years ago or 80 years ago as an excuse for more war, but to bring Peace now.

You seem to have a 1000 excuses why peace can't happen and why even negotiations can't happen. if everyone thought like you all wars from history would still be raging and we would all be living in the rubble, plotting our next attack. You ignored the fact they they walked away from every Peace opportunity instead choosing to rehash old grievances. How's that working out?

You asked: "What will advance the Palestinian cause?"
I answered: Peace. Peace is the Only Answer.
You seem to want another answer. Good luck with that.

[Big Blue Marble]

46. You may act as indignant as you choose.

Last edited Mon Oct 9, 2023, 08:03 PM - Edit history (1)

You can revise history also. You only choose to share part of the story. The truth is that the peoples of this land
regardless of what you call them or their history have been forced from their homes or left for fear of their lives
That is documented by facts not just Morris. They were not allowed back as is required under international law
and their descendants live in refuge camps to this day.

Simplistically throw around the word peace as if it were a magical balm. Peace can only be achieved when
two parties are willing or one is subjugated by violence and is forced to submit.

The current Israeli government and the West Bank Settlers have no intention of agreeing to a true sovereign
state of Palestine of a kind that Palestines seek and deserve. Their choice is the status quo of restriction and
brutality or the removal of these people. (Do you rage as intensely at the violence of the settlers and suggest
they might live in peace with their Arab neighbors? You signal only contempt for these people and their loss
of both civil and human rights.)

Israel have been moving in this direction since the formation of the State of Israel and the map proves it
as the areas that are Palestinian are smaller and smaller, surrounded by military bases and illegal settlements
subsidized by the Israeli Government.

You have your narrative set and I will not change that, but you are facile with the facts. I will leave it at that and
you may have the last word if you choose on this thread.

[Hieronymus Phact]

47. Fine I'll take the last word

First you called me a racist,
Now you're calling me a liar when I've stated only facts.

You prefer wallowing in 1000 year old grievances to justify current killings.
You never once bothered to address any point i made, all you did was list more grievances to justify more killing.

"Peace can only be achieved when two parties are willing" -correct.
The Israelis DO live in peace with their Arab neighbors:
The Israelis made peace with the Egyptians even though they were also occupied and the settlers were there too.
The Israelis made peace with the Jordanians, and they are working on peace with he Saudis.
They seem willing enough.

There is only one party not willing to even try Peace, and you, with your insults represent them very well.

And yes, Peace IS a magical balm. It stops innocent people from dying. Too bad you're clearly not interested.

[Shellback Squid]

12. what about only showing the deaths, this shows the Israelis showed restraint

[The_Casual_Observer]

15. No matter how many they kill they keep coming back..

[Elessar Zappa]

25. Now Palestine will be decimated.

Israel isn’t going to put up with Hamas terrorists and the population that harbors and supports them.

[The_Casual_Observer]

26. Feel better now?

[mysteryowl]

17. Palistine is an oppressed society. These numbers are horrific!

[Beastly Boy]

21. Palestinian Prisoner and Martyr Payments Explained

The Palestinian Authority’s policy of financially supporting Palestinians who land in Israeli prisons, as well as their families, is a perennial concern for Israeli and American policymakers and a source of disagreement with their counterparts in Ramallah.
Critics of this policy, particularly in the U.S. and Israel, often point to these prisoner payments as an unambiguous case of terror incitement—a government openly rewarding people for committing acts of violence against Israelis.

--snip--

The Palestinian Authority Martyrs’ Fund, the PA’s prisoner payment program, provides monthly stipends to both Palestinians imprisoned or injured by Israel (primarily the Israeli military, but by civilians as well) and to families of those who have been killed. The Palestinian Authority officially introduced this policy in 2004 through the passage of the Law of Prisoners No.19. This policy aimed to support Arab Israelis and Palestinians who were participating in the Second Intifiada, a period of violent uprisings against Israel’s occupation of the West Bank and Gaza, which often took the form of terror attacks against Israeli civilian and military targets.

https://israelpolicyforum.org/2021/04/02/palestinian-prisoner-and-martyr-payments-explained/

"Palestinian Martyrdom" is a transactional death cult. Israel prioritizes keeping its citizens alive.

Any questions?

[AntivaxHunters]

27. Israelpolicyforum sounds very unbiased lol

[pansypoo53219]

23. a phyrrhic attack. hoist by their own petard.

why hamas?

[Demovictory9]

34. Israel..251 total deaths since 2008 then 700 yesterday... shocking

[WhiteTara]

39. Here is some context to the present day madness

https://imeu.org/article/the-sabra-shatila-massacre

On September 16, 1982, Christian Lebanese militiamen allied to Israel entered the Palestinian refugee camp of Shatila and the adjacent neighborhood of Sabra in Beirut under the watch of the Israeli army and began a slaughter that caused outrage around the world. Over the next day and a half, up to 3500 Palestinian and Lebanese civilians, mostly women, children, and the elderly, were murdered in one of the worst atrocities in modern Middle Eastern history. The New York Times recently published an op-ed containing new details of discussions held between Israeli and American officials before and during the massacre. They reveal how Israeli officials, led by then-Defense Minister Ariel Sharon, misled and bullied American diplomats, rebuffing their concerns about the safety of the inhabitants of Sabra and Shatila.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabra_and_Shatila_massacre#


The Sabra and Shatila massacre was the killing in Lebanon of between 460 and 3,500 civilians—mostly Palestinians and Lebanese Shiites—by the militia of the Lebanese Forces. The group was a Maronite Christian Lebanese right-wing party under the command of Elie Hobeika. It committed the atrocity in the Sabra neighborhood and the adjacent Shatila refugee camp, in Beirut. President Bachir Gemayel had been assassinated two days earlier and the Phalangists sought revenge.[4]

From approximately 18:00 on 16 September to 08:00 on 18 September 1982, a widespread massacre was carried out by the militia, while the Israeli Defence Forces (IDF) had the camp surrounded.[5][6][7][8] The militia had been ordered by the IDF to clear Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO) fighters out of Sabra and Shatila, as part of the IDF's maneuvering into West Beirut. As the massacre unfolded, the IDF received reports of atrocities but did not take any action to prevent or stop the massacre.[9]

snip


The Sabra and Shatila massacre was the killing in Lebanon of between 460 and 3,500 civilians—mostly Palestinians and Lebanese Shiites—by the militia of the Lebanese Forces. The group was a Maronite Christian Lebanese right-wing party under the command of Elie Hobeika. It committed the atrocity in the Sabra neighborhood and the adjacent Shatila refugee camp, in Beirut. President Bachir Gemayel had been assassinated two days earlier and the Phalangists sought revenge.[4]

From approximately 18:00 on 16 September to 08:00 on 18 September 1982, a widespread massacre was carried out by the militia, while the Israeli Defence Forces (IDF) had the camp surrounded.[5][6][7][8] The militia had been ordered by the IDF to clear Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO) fighters out of Sabra and Shatila, as part of the IDF's maneuvering into West Beirut. As the massacre unfolded, the IDF received reports of atrocities but did not take any action to prevent or stop the massacre.[9]

In June 1982, the IDF had invaded Lebanon with the intention of rooting out the PLO. By 30 August 1982, under the supervision of the Multinational Force, the PLO withdrew from Lebanon following weeks of battles in West Beirut and shortly before the massacre took place. Various forces—Israeli, Lebanese Forces and possibly also the South Lebanon Army (SLA)—were in the vicinity of Sabra and Shatila at the time of the slaughter, taking advantage of the fact that the Multinational Force had removed barracks and mines that had encircled Beirut's predominantly Muslim neighborhoods and kept the Israelis at bay during the Beirut siege.[10] The Israeli advance over West Beirut in the wake of the PLO withdrawal, which enabled the Lebanese Forces raid, was in violation of the ceasefire agreement between the various forces.[11] The Israeli Army surrounded Sabra and Shatila and stationed troops at the exits of the area to prevent camp residents from leaving and, at the request of the Lebanese Forces,[12] fired illuminating flares at night.[13][14]

According to Alain Menargues, the direct perpetrators of the killings were the "Young Men", a gang recruited by Elie Hobeika (the Lebanese Forces intelligence chief and liaison officer with Mossad), from men who had been expelled from the Lebanese Forces for insubordination or criminal activities.[15] The killings are widely believed to have taken place under Hobeika's direct orders. Hobeika's family and fiancée had been murdered by Palestinian militiamen and their Lebanese allies during the 1976 Damour massacre, itself a response to the Karantina massacre of Palestinians and Lebanese Muslims at the hands of Christian militants two days before.[16][17][18][19] In all 300–400 militiamen were involved, including some from Sa'ad Haddad's South Lebanon Army.[20]

In February 1983, a commission chaired by Seán MacBride, the assistant to the UN Secretary General and President of United Nations General Assembly at the time, looking into reported violations of International Law by Israel concluded that Israel, as the camp's occupying power, bore responsibility for the violence.[21] The commission also concluded that the massacre was a form of genocide.[22]

In February 1983, the Israeli Kahan Commission, appointed to investigate the incident, found that Israeli military personnel, aware that a massacre was in progress, had failed to take serious steps to stop it. The commission deemed Israel indirectly responsible, and Ariel Sharon, then Defense Minister, bore personal responsibility "for ignoring the danger of bloodshed and revenge", forcing him to resign.[23]

[lapucelle]

43. So the Iron Dome missile defense system works.

From your link:

Violence has broken out after weeks of tension stoked by violent clashes between Israeli police and Palestinian protestors in Jerusalem. Israel has carried out heavy airstrikes in Gaza with the Hanadi tower, a combined office and apartment complex owned by Hamas, targeted and destroyed.

The militant group has fired rockets towards major Israeli cities including Tel Aviv, Ashkelon and Beersheba with one volley of 130 projectiles thought to be the single largest barrage ever seen. Footage posted on social media shows Israeli Iron Dome missiles intercepting many of the incoming rockets as air raid sirens blared in the background.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Imagine what the casualties would have been if Congress had voted to cut off funding for the Iron Dome missile defense system.

https://rollcall.com/2021/09/23/house-passes-israel-iron-dome-funding-with-some-democratic-defections/