Some truth in the fog prevalent this morning

[justaprogressive]

Israel’s military advance on the Gaza Strip, West Bank, Golan Heights and Egyptian Sinai in 1967 sparked fresh bloodshed and saw the UN Security Council pass Resolution 242 ordering it to withdraw from territories it considered occupied. The council was ignored.

Following the Yom Kippur War, the Security Council would pass another resolution, 338, calling for a ceasefire and again demanding Israel retreat from its 1967 incursions. Again, Israel refused.

On 30 March 1976, Israeli land confiscations were met with uprisings, strikes and further violent reprisals in towns from the Sea of Galilee to the Negev, a date commemorated by Palestinians ever after as “Land Day”.

snip

Then, in summer 1993, the Oslo I Accord was signed by Israeli PM Yitzhak Rabin and PLO chairman Yasser Arafat, providing for the creation of a Palestinian interim self-government, the Palestinian National Authority, and the withdrawal of Israeli Defence Forces from zones still widely considered occupied. A second agreement, Oslo II, followed in 1995 and granted Palestinian autonomy in certain parts of the West Bank and Gaza but, again, did not offer statehood.

An uneasy truce held until a second Intifada saw Israel reoccupy West Bank cities in 2002, a destabilising event that would be worsened by the death of Arafat in 2004, a great blow to the Palestinian cause.

Since that time, violence has returned, with Israel declaring war on Hezbollah in Lebanon in 2006 and launching repeated assaults on Hamas in Gaza, including Operation Cast Lead (2008), Operation Pillar of Defence (2012) and Operation Protective Edge (2014). Further violence blew up on Nakba Day in both 2017 and 2018, the latter severe enough to merit a UN war crimes investigation.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/palestine-israel-conflict-explained-b2426348.html

Two sides to every story...

[Happy Hoosier]

1. Disgusting. There are no "two sides"

These are heinous atrocities. Don’t “both sides” the murder of 260 people at a peace music festival.

They had nothing to do with Israel’s earlier transgressions.

Fucking disgusting!

[Martin68]

43. There are most definitely two sides. If you don't understand that this conflict has ben going on

since 1948, with atrocities committed by both sides, then you haven't been paying attention. To blithely declare "they had nothing to do with Israel’s earlier transgressions" is just willful blindness. Until both sides recognize it is their own interests to stop fighting, it will continue. Under Netanyahu Israel has been building more and more settlements on Palestinian land in contravention of UN votes and international law. Is Israel allowing Palestinians to build settlements on Israeli land? The grudges go back millenia.

[Happy Hoosier]

45. None of that justifies these atrocities

I am a long-time critic of the Israeli government in this matter. I understand the long history, so you can stop with the pedantic sanctimony.

It’s fucking gross to both sides this.

[Martin68]

53. It is gross to deny that both sides have committed atrocities during this endless conflict. Israel

responds to missile and terrrorist attacks by bombing urban areas, invariably killing civilians and inflicting more casualties in retaliation than they suffered. Until both sides realize it is in their best interest to stop, neither one will. Meanwhile, Israel is taking away Palestinian land by building settlements there, provoking more attacks.

[Happy Hoosier]

58. Where did I deny that? I didn't

I have been very critical of Israel’s policies and war crimes.

And your response was a bullshit straw man. Find one single fucking example of me denying historical Israeli atrocities or apologize.

[Martin68]

60. I apologize. Upon re-reading your post I see the I completely misunderstood your stance.

You are right.

[Happy Hoosier]

71. Thank you! I very much appreciate your integrity!!! NT

[AntivaxHunters]

70. You're looking at a symptom

Not the disease itself.

You're hooked on what Hamas did. Yes it's wrong. But this is just 1 instance of many, MANY things.

Are we to ignore the atrocities Israel has committed against the Palestinian people? Are we going to forget all the innocent kids who were killed by snipers simply for being Palestinian?
This has been a titt for tatt war for decades. What we need is peace.

[CaliforniaPeggy]

2. Greatest Page for your very important post, my dear justaprogressive. Richly deserved. nt

[MarineCombatEngineer]

3. Wow!!!!

As I live and breathe, a bothsiderism thread.

There is only one entity to blame for this massacre currently going on in Israel and that would be Hamas, period.

[justaprogressive]

4. How many declared wars and attacks would you have them go through...

Since you back Ukraine...?

[MarineCombatEngineer]

7. Who? Israel?

Since I back Ukraine?
WTF does that have to do with this heinous terrorist attack on Israel?

Maybe if Hamas would quit lobbing rockets into Israel, or renounce their stated goal of the destruction of Israel and Jews, then I might find some sympathy with your thread, but you seem to be blaming Israel for this cowardly attack by Hamas on innocent civilians, including foreigners who were attending the concert.

Like I said, there is only ONE entity responsible for this murderous attack and that would be HAMAS.

[JohnSJ]

8. Which undeclared wars are you talking about? The 1956 war, the 1967 war, or the 1973 war, which

we’re unprovoked wars to destroy Israel

[onenote]

9. Closer to one-siderism than both-siderism. Seems to ignore who started the 1967 and 1973 wars

as well as the ongoing terror attacks, bombings etc. perpetrated against Israeli citizens.

[MarineCombatEngineer]

12. +100.

Yep, OP totally ignores the fact that Israel has been under constant threat or attack since the creation of Israel and attempt, rather poorly IMO, to place all the blame on the victim of this heinous crime against humanity.

[RussBLib]

50. You do realize that before Israel was created....

....the area where Israel now sits was known as Palestine.

I agree Israel has been under attack off and on ever since it was created by the UN, and Jews have been attacked relentlessly since that "good book" was written.

I agree with the post from Mehdi Hassan..
https://www.democraticunderground.com/100218341407

Otherwise, I am watching all this with revulsion.

And BTW, this is a long way from WW3, IMHO.

[MarineCombatEngineer]

57. If you're referring to my thread where I brought up that I think WWIII is on the horizen,

I didn't mean just because of the attack on Israel, I'm talking about the whole world situation.

[RussBLib]

62. Understood

...but I also disagree that WW3 is on the horizon. Well, ok, let's say it's on the horizon, but you know how you never quite can make it to the horizon? It's always moving.

Yeah, that's philosophical junk, but I still don't see WW3 anytime soon. There have been regional conflicts since time began. Often several at the same time. Probably only very short periods of time where there were no conflicts anywhere.

It appears Russia is losing steam and might just lose the war in Ukraine, if the rest of Europe sticks together.

China has become dramatically weaker over the last several years. Their economy is in turmoil. Their people are very restless. Yes, times like that can cause leaders to think that a war could "fix" things, but it never does.

Iran has been a thorn since we installed the Shah over Mossadegh. It seems they are close to becoming westernized, but the religious "leaders" won't allow it. We seemed to have things going in the right direction until Trump pulled out of the nuclear deal and assassinated one of their leaders.

North Korea? It's been nuts for decades now.

Vietnam? A relative success story, after shedding 50,000+ American lives there.

I think the trick is to contain the authoritarian leaders and keep them OUT of power. Yeah, like Trump.

The world has been in turmoil since the day I was born and long before. But I'm trying to keep my eyes open.

https://russblib.blogspot.com

[MarineCombatEngineer]

64. Thanks for the reply,

you've set my mind a little bit at ease.

[JohnSJ]

29. Conveniently ignoring I might ass

[Martin68]

44. It sure is easy to say "the latest is ll their fault" as if it took place in a vacuum.

[IbogaProject]

5. Bibi created this mess and worked with Hamas to divide the Palestinian peoples

Netanyahu’s policy of treating the terror group as a partner, at the expense of Abbas and Palestinian statehood, has resulted in wounds that will take Israel years to heal from

https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/

So yet another example of a corrupt right wing criminal making the world worse for all.

[JohnSJ]

6. The 1967 and you Kipper war were unprovoked attempt by the neighboring Arab

nations to destroy Israel.

Because of those wars, Israel captured land. Prior to that Jews were not allowed into Jerusalem, and the Golan Heights was used to launch missiles constantly into Israel.

[MyMission]

14. Because of those wars, Israel captured land

Absolutely correct!
That's how war works.

[JohnSJ]

17. That is correct.

[Alexander Of Assyria]

10. The IDF will withdraw when it's objectives are reached or frustrated, then America will demand

a ceasefire…same as always.

Then the open air Gaza prison will be secured again and the western world will be content with continuing the terrorism and continuing with the 50 year two state negotiations without end,,,sounds like a plan!

[brush]

37. Correct. Wash, rinse and repeat over and over and over...

and so will the inevitable reactions against apartheid.

The Western world being satisfied with the spin cycle only results in the spin cycle.

Time to get all parties, and honest brokers, in peace talks until a two-state solution is hammer out and signed.

[flying_wahini]

11. As long as treaties have been written they have been broken.

Israel can’t be dissolved anymore than it was created.

It is always going to be a conflict until a state is made for everyone.

[malaise]

13. Folks don"t want the truth

It won’t work
There is apartheid and apartheid, fascism and fascism and holocausts and holocausts.
Each has no objective meanings for some folks.
I am almost ready to jump off of this planet.

[mahina]

20. Let's hold a vision of a world

With peace and justice. Please don’t jump malaise.

[malaise]

30. Metaphorically

I’m not going anywhere until they lock up the Slobfather😀😀

[mahina]

34. ♥️

🤙🏼🤙🏼✨🌸

[calimary]

47. Well, there is that.

I’m with ya on that, absolutely.

[MorbidButterflyTat]

55. Finally!

A reason to live!

[Farmer-Rick]

15. All in the name of a God

Humankind is so messed up.

[MarineCombatEngineer]

16. +100.

Religion has killed more humans than anything else historically.

[jaxexpat]

21. People, motivated by many influences, hold the second place trophy......

for most people killings, bad health remaining steady as #1.

[MarineCombatEngineer]

27. Let me rephrase that,

religion has violently killed more people historically.

[Sky Jewels]

18. All in the name of a god...

that is just a figment of human imagination and doesn't even exist in reality.

[malaise]

25. And they wonder why I have none

My parents had sex and I was produced - I am not among the chosen from any of them- egg and sperm mean baby 😀
Eff every single religion.

[Farmer-Rick]

38. Amen

Religion has been the cause of much more suffering than good.

[calimary]

48. Sure does look that way, doesn't it.

I found a quote from Rodney King that I’m gonna use in our next Call to Action email.

“Can’t we all get along?”

So simple and fundamental. The quote was a little longer. I have to go find it.

And I fear the equally simple, fundamental answer is “No”.

[malaise]

65. It is most,y used for control and to enrich the 'chosen' from a variety of religions

Eff them all

[Martin68]

54. While religion is one cause, it is also a matter of territory and who it belongs to. Don't minimize

the importance of the land taken away by the Israelis to build walls and make settlements. don't forget that the biggest sticking point to peace is the Palestinian's insistence on the Right to Return to land taken from them in 1948 when many were forced to leave their homes.

[Mossfern]

61. And Jewish people living in Arab lands at that time

were forced to leave their homes and their properties confiscated by the Arabs.
Some people seem to overlooked that fact.

[Martin68]

67. No, it is not overlooked. I have just been making the point that the conflict is as much about

historical rights to the land as it is about religion. I acknowledge that Jews as well as Muslims had to leave their homes, never to return, when the conflict began in 1948.

[Farmer-Rick]

69. Reminds me of the English and Irish troubles

It was about religion but also about stolen territory.

[Martin68]

72. Indeed. Excellent point!

[Torchlight]

59. And in the name of borders, economics, politics, etc., as well.

Often takes more than one of our imaginary ingredient to make a stew.

[MOMFUDSKI]

19. It is never about picking sides.

It is about the despicable leaders in many, many countries forever power-grabbing. Stop it!

[JT45242]

22. Israel was deemed an apartheid oppressor of Palestinian territories... there are two sides

Both sides have attacked civilians. The US has generally given a free pass to hard liner Israeli military policy.

I am not condoning what has happened -- but this is not a case where Israel has no blame for the cause of the current conflict.

If the UN had actually done something about the illegal occupation and horrific treatment of all non-Jewish Palestinians (the Israeli government is equally willing to illegally limit what Muslims or Christians can do in the occupied territories), we might not be here today.

Somehow a two state solution with a free Palestine needs to be created.

[malaise]

32. Jimmy Carter is correct

And so are you

[duhneece]

39. And you both.

These ARE tough times. Hang in with me, Malaise. I need you.

[redqueen]

23. I would say I'm surprised by the number of people here demonstrating selective outrage

But I'm not

[LexVegas]

24. I can always depend on coming here for some good Israel both siderism.

[sanatanadharma]

26. One must appreciate and not rile the "not me" defenders of all things wrong

Because clearly many seem to believe that there is always one side that is 100% innocent.

The only innocent are the dead. How many dead does it take to make one side innocent?

Answer: No one can prove their righteousness by killing the so-called unrighteous, even those who are wrong.

[XorXor]

28. Seems like your post is only giving one side of the story

Any reason why it only discusses discusses incidents with Israel put in a negative frame? It seems to be lacking some objectivity.

[justaprogressive]

31. You're correct

an actual human wrote this story...no AI.

Aren't there enough posts condemning Hamas and to a lesser degree Palestinians?

I'm old enough to remember equal-time on the airwaves.

[XorXor]

56. I have a hard time trusting anything that skews only to one side

If Israel launched 5000 rockets into Gaza out of the blue, and then someone made a post only cataloging actions of Hamas only in a negative frame w/o any additional context, I would have a similar view of that specific post.

What would be your thoughts on someone who posted something like that in that situation?

[MayReasonRule]

33. Israelites And Palestinians Have Been At War With Each Other Since Their Split In 975 BCE

The 10 tribes of Israel made Jeroboam king and the tribes of Judah and Benjamin, along with the Levites, remained with Rehoboam. The split was blamed on Solomon (1 Kings 11:11-13, 29-39).

The northern 10 tribes kept the name of Israel. The once unified tribes of Jacob were now two nations.

There have been wars and wars of retribution between the tribal sects ever since.

Lies and hate are two edged swords, they always cut two ways. Ain't no way to end one's days, bitter to the grave.

[Farmer-Rick]

41. Oh, wow, you even quote scripture

To explain these never ending religious wars.

Religion seems to promote wars. Perhaps it is really the root cause of the current atrocities.

[MayReasonRule]

51. We're On The Same Page Farmer-Rick

My personal experience is that of being beat to hell, then lifted out, odd to say both times by doubt.
When I rejected doubt I was beat to hell by reality's reason.
When I embraced doubt I was lifted out by reality's reason.

Doubt is a seed for reality's reason.
If one rejects doubt, one is rejecting reason.

Faith rejects doubt and embraces delusion.
Delusion divides.
Reason embraces doubt and rejects delusion.
Reason restores.

It took myself, my wife and our daughter nearly thirty years to escape the tenacious clutches of the Abrahamic Blood Cult of Christ in which we'd been reared and inculcated from birth.

We are the only members of either side of our families that we're aware of that have had the great fortune to succeed in that arduous task. All the rest of the members of our families remain varying flavors of Nationalist Christians in the vilest sense of the term.

There's no easy way out as hard-core believer when you trust in the schemes of the fools and the dreamers. It's a real gut-punch to realize that one has been living within a delusional construct. At that juncture one recognizes that reassessment is the first order of the day.

When my jubilant elation met ultimate sorrow, catastrophe's joy took me decades to swallow.

Today our savior is doubt and our god is reason.

Which is why my mantra is, 'May Reason Rule'.

Laissez bon temps rouler y'all no matter what you do!

[ripcord]

35. You forgot to add that Palestinians have been trying to violently overthow Israel since the 40s

There were contingents of Palestinians in everyone one of the attempted genocide attacks on Israel by the Arabs.

[question everything]

36. You forgot to mention the butchering of citizens in large groups

of taking elderly in wheelchairs and babies hostages

[justaprogressive]

63. You mean like this:

On December 27, 2008, Israel launched Operation Cast Lead, a massive, 22-day military assault on the Gaza Strip. The ferocity of the attack was unprecedented in the more than six-decade-old conflict between Israelis and Palestinians, killing some 1,400 Palestinians, most of them civilians.

In the aftermath of the offensive, a UN-appointed fact finding mission found strong evidence of war crimes and crimes against humanity committed by both the Israeli military and Palestinian militias. Investigations by human rights groups such as Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch came to the same conclusion.


FACTS & FIGURES

According to investigations by independent Israeli and Palestinian human rights organizations, between 1,385 and 1,419 Palestinians were killed during Cast Lead, a majority of them civilians, including at least 308 minors under the age of 18. More than 5000 more were wounded. Thirteen Israelis were also killed, including 3 civilians. (See below for a more detailed breakdown of casualties)

https://imeu.org/article/operation-cast-lead

[leftstreet]

40. DURec

[Mosby]

42. This article is Palestinian propaganda

There are too many errors to go over, but the most egregious is the description of 242. It most certainly did not order Israel to leave the occupied territories. It requires the two sides to reach a permanent settlement, which the Palestinian refuse to do, even today. In fact the Palestinian leadership has tacked on preconditions to talks, in violation of international law.

Describing the war of independence where the Arabs tried and failed to kill all the Jews as a civil war is just sickening and unethical journalism.

Jordan didn't offer administrative control in 1950, they fucking illegally annexed the West Bank, again completely illegal. Note that they didn't offer control to the Palestinians, which they could have up to 1967 when the Israelis LIBERATED the WB from the illegal Jordanian occupation and annexation.

[Beastly Boy]

46. This is not truth. It's pure spin.

Quit pretending.

[Mr.Bill]

49. These two peoples will fight each other

as long as one of them is left standing. Our country doesn't even know who will be leading us a year and a half from now. We are playing a very short game while they play the long game. That's why we have difficulty understanding this mess.

[calimary]

52. This. There will never be true peace in that area.

One piece of land. Two different (and opposing) claims to it. One side gets a temporary win and the other side gets a temporary grievance. And the one with the grievance doesn’t give in or go away, but plots revenge. And so it goes.

Oy. I’ve already seen enough.

[lapucelle]

66. There's no mention of Amin al-Husseini in the article.

Editorial decisions on what to include and what to leave out of what purports to be a comprehensive telling are so interesting.

[AncientOfDays]

68. Problems both sides

I see problems on both sides - but I think the real problem is that we need to figure out some incentives for BOTH sides to cease hostilities. I don't know if complete peace can be achieved after thousands of years of war in the region, but if both sides have something they really like that they could lose, perhaps they could find their way to a truce.