So I just lost any sympathy for the Palestinian cause and Gaza

[orangecrush]

Saw actual footage of the treatment they gave the hostages they took.

Women and children stripped, beaten and killed as they were paraded.

Fuck Hamas.

They are getting exactly what their hand calls for

[Tomconroy]

1. Agreed. Last week I felt differently. People here are post shaming me

Because I no longer give a fuck about the Palestinians. But I'm not gonna lie. I don't give a fuck.
They should have taken Bill Clinton's deal.

[LiberaBlueDem]

48. Blaming all of Gaza for a few terrorists is not cool

Israel paper says Netanyahoo has used Hamas to create chaos.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/

[boston bean]

68. Its not just a few. They were voted into power.

[Bev54]

98. 10 years ago and nothing since and even then it was a dodgy election. Hamas would not even have

a foothold if there was some hope in Gaza. I hate Hamas but I would never ever put that hate onto the repressed Palestinian people.

[boston bean]

99. It was not a dodgy election.

Sorry.

Plus have you seen the videos of men and women in GAZA celebrating the capture/rape/murder and f those kidnapped. Sure looked like a lot of citizens.

[Bev54]

112. Sorry but yes it was and it was basically a coup taking over the Palestinian government.

I don't agree with the celebrations and wonder how many of those are actual families or members of Hamas. Do you think these families in Gaza want Israel to bomb the shit out of their neighbourhoods? There is a very very big difference from the Palestinians and Hamas. just watching images on tv does not provide an understanding of these very complicated issues.

[boston bean]

115. No. I am sure they want sqfety for themselves.

But not others.

And again it was not a dodgy election. And polls recently show almost 60% supporting Hamas in Gaza.

[MorbidButterflyTat]

153. Yeah

We've seen the polls here showing Slobby with a huge lead over Prez Biden. Totally legit.

Please explain how you know the elections for Hamas weren't "dodgy."

[boston bean]

165. Go read. It was huge turn out. There was mo violence. And Hamas won.

And they won decisively.

[paleotn]

74. A few?

[LiberaBlueDem]

117. 2 million in Gaza

yeah, a few took up arms

[Cha]

211. ".. a few took arms.." Please Don't

Minimize.. They did A LOT MORE Than "take up Arms".

This Shit is On HAMAS.

[Igel]

102. Am I allowed to think poorly about the thousands of Gazans

in the crowds that cheered them on?

Or those that said how much they admired and supported their brave murdering rapist heroes?

Or must I assume they're automata and without will or agency?

[Fichefinder]

2. I'd rather be dead....

..than live in an Israeli Apartheid State.
Is that your final solution for the Palestinians? Kill them all?

[MarineCombatEngineer]

6. I'd rather be living in Israel than under the jackboot of Hamas.

My solution is to hunt down and kill each and every last Hamas leader and any Palestinians that participated in the slaughter of innocent civilians, and that includes not just Israelis, but Americans, German and any other foreign visitors that Hamas slaughtered.

[moonshinegnomie]

37. i agree. and i wouldnt stop with hamas

id include irans leaders in the mix. they have been a sponsor of terrorism throughout the work. its time to end them. take out their leadership. if they try and block the straits of hormuz eliminate their military.

[MarineCombatEngineer]

8. Fine, don't fucking live there,

I'm sure Israel has no problem with you not wanting to live there.

[Tomconroy]

9. They could have had Bill Clinton's deal. And prevented all of this.

[MicaelS]

10. Horseshit.

Life is better than death.

[Arazi]

14. You don't have any right to speak for everyone

[MarineCombatEngineer]

17. Well, he speaks for me

and I suspect for the majority of DUer's.

[MicaelS]

22. I am speaking for those with common sense.

YMMV.

[MorbidButterflyTat]

156. How condescending

And rude.

And WRONG.

[orangecrush]

25. Welcome to DU

The actions taken by Hamas are the cause of the deaths to come.

[GP6971]

43. Really???

Why should they?

[marble falls]

67. He's no daisy ...

...

?si=OkYnlabb2ume50WG


Some historians claim Ringo shot himself when his horse ran off with his trousers and boots and rifle.

[MarineCombatEngineer]

44. Welcome to DU.

Just for kicks, what toppings do you prefer on your pizza?
Asking for a friend.

[GP6971]

70. They're not getting a choice tonight...

just what's available.

[MarineCombatEngineer]

72. LOL!!!

[mcar]

128. ...

[Cha]

213. lol Old School

[LuckyCharms]

45. You don't seem like you like to play nice.

[egduj]

60. Found this one at the bottom of the drawer, didn't you.

[paleotn]

75. Stop murdering innocent Israelis.

How about starting with that?

[Orrex]

108. Alternatively, or additionally, stop murdering innocent Palestinians

Plenty of murders of the innocent to go around.

[Beastly Boy]

111. Somehow I suspect that you will quickly change your mind

once you see a mass murdererer point an AK47 in your face as you are surrounded by a mass of dead civilians.

[Straw Man]

215. How would you feel ...

... about living in an Islamic fundamentalist theocracy? Y'know, like Iran, who are behind a large part of this shitshow.

[question everything]

3. And wait until they start executing for the world to see. Worse than ISIS

[speak easy]

86. Worse than ISIS ?

No, the same as ISIS - the naked face of evil.

[MyNameIsJonas]

4. Wait. You had sympathy for Hamas?

[Celerity]

11. +1

[orangecrush]

28. Edited for clarification

[Celerity]

31. So now your are holding 2.1 million Gazans, 1 million + who are teens and younger, to account

for the actions of a terror group?

Not to mention the 3.2 million Palestinians in the West Bank?

Holding them to account in the hardcore RW Israeli version may well means the deaths of tens (perhaps hundreds) of thousands of civilians.

Are you willing to support that level of carnage and mass killing?

[speak easy]

89. Collective punishment is a war crime.

[Celerity]

105. and yet I see some advocating for it, either openly or via nebulous framings

it is quite dismaying

[Frasier Balzov]

93. The German people were bullied into accepting the Nazi Party's grab for power.

The German people paid a terrible price for allowing it.

It seems to me that sympathy for the Palestinian population should similarly fall along those lines.

[Celerity]

126. As previously and correctly stated by multiple posters here (including on this very thread)

collective punishment is a war crime under international law.

Hamas and the Palestinian people as a whole (especially the civilians) are not interchangeable terms.

The Practical Guide to Humanitarian Law

https://guide-humanitarian-law.org/content/article/3/collective-punishment/

https://casebook.icrc.org/a_to_z/glossary/collective-punishments

[Frasier Balzov]

127. Well Mister President, I would say that General Ripper has already invalidated THAT policy.

[Celerity]

175. The fictional General Ripper was an arch villain. Fuck ALL war criminals.

[Frasier Balzov]

179. But was Buck Turgidson?

[Celerity]

183. Yes.

[Beastly Boy]

158. Send a copy to Mr. Haniyeh, won't you?

[Celerity]

172. So now we are going to base our moral & legal stances upon the actions of a butcher terrorist?

Are you willing to stand by and watch tens upon tens (or even hundreds) of thousands of civilians potentially annihilated?

Hell, might as well go for the full 2.1 million in Gaza, and then start to cull the remaining 3.2 million in the West Bank.

'No Palestinians, no problems!', chortled Netanyahu and his cronies.



If that is indeed the outcome, and if the US were to stand by and allow even the lower ends of that level of slaughter to happen, then the country has truly become the evil it has laboured so hard against in the past.

Astoundingly distressing that some seem to be ok with allowing openly brazen war crimes and yes, genocide, on a mass scale, a scale that quite potentially dwarfs anything done by the Palestinian leadership in their entire history, as long as it is against the 'right' group of folk.

[Beastly Boy]

190. By what perverted logic do you propose I base my moral and legal stances on anything other than

actions of a butcher terrorist? Is it not Hamas that bares full responsibility for putting 2 million Gazans in peril?

Are YOU willing to stand by and watch 2.1 million Gazans potentially annihilated? No? Then why don't you call for Hamas to leave Gaza alone, surrender their weapons and face justice? Or is there something in your moral or legal stance that prevents you from holding Hamas accountable for their war crimes? If they all surrender today, I assure you, the hostilities will end tomorrow. Other than disarming and holding the criminals accountable, IDF has no interest in Gaza.

Of course, you know full well that Hamas will keep terrorizing Gazans with their presence. And this, notwithstanding the bizarre notion of Israel's culpability for Hamas' crimes, does not absolve Hamas from their role in endangering Gazans.

[Celerity]

193. Collective punishment is a war crime.

All due care must be made to minimise civilian deaths as much as is possible whilst the murderous Hamas terrorists are (as is necessary) rooted out in toto and destroyed.

[Beastly Boy]

195. And clearly, Hamas cares nothing for minimizing civilian deaths.

A war crime in the making.

[Celerity]

197. Chalk and cheese. Hamas signed their own death warrants. The vast majority of civilian Palestinians

did not.

[Beastly Boy]

203. Hamas signed all the death warrants, including those for the vast majority of Gazans.

I thought I made it abundantly clear, with no room for deflecting. The ice you are on is getting awfully thin.

[Celerity]

206. My ice is thick, yours is damn near shattered.

Hamas signed all the death warrants, including those for the vast majority of Gazans.

Just madness I am seeing statements like this here.

If we define 'vast majority' as low as 60%, then you are literally arguing that it is morally and legally acceptable for around 1.3 million civilians to be slaughtered if Israel claims that is the cost of their definition of 'settling' the matter.

Talk about being on the wrong side of both justice and history.

[Beastly Boy]

209. Did I ever argue that it is acceptable for civilians to be slaughtered?

Do you see no difference between this and me saying Hamas is legally and morally accountable for civilians to be slaughtered? Or are you fully aware of the fallacies in your argument and are just messing with me?

This is not funny, and it is getting painfully repetitious.

[GhostHunter22]

101. Thank you for your post.

I’m sickened by the disgust and bloodthirst toward innocent Palestinian civilians here.

Perhaps this is not the place for me. It feels a great deal like I’m on a far-right hate site than a place where Democrats gather to discuss issues with depth and understanding.

[MarineCombatEngineer]

103. ......

[MustLoveBeagles]

146. I'm sorry you had to witness this

I'm also beginning to wonder if I belong here.

[MorbidButterflyTat]

168. +1

Callous naked bigotry. It's sickening.

[Igel]

160. A few disparate comments.

(1) I don't know how to define "innocent." If you picnic while celebrating a lynching (of a Jew, black, or Italian person) are you "innocent"?

(2) You shun the family of a man that your uncle unjustly accused so that in Stalin's Russia he'd get his uncle--you--a good job in a good city in the raspredelenie? Are you innocent?

(3) You train your kid to celebrate disempowering the powerful. Then your kid comes come saying, "I saw somebody rape and kill the factory owner. I cheered!" Are you innocent? Is your kid?

(4) You have a kid. He's 9. But you're wife is a member of the hated Kzinti, who slaughtered millions of humans (you're human, the Kzinti aren't; no, they're not from Earth, it's a fictional race from a Larry Niven novel). So your son is Kzinti and others find out. His race is guilty of attempted genocide--do you defend him? Is he innocent?

(5) They come for your wife, who sat out the Kzinti wars. Do you defend *her*? Is she guilty?

(6) 1 person wants your wife and son dead. Do you kill that would be murderer of two innocents--if they're innocent?

(7) 10 people want your wife and son dead? Do you kill the 10?

(8) 10,000 want your wife and son dead? Do you kill the 10,000?

Moral choices are hard.

They're especially hard when ideology declares a priori the victims and victimizers, but people can't make explicit the ideologies involved.

Stay at DU or not, there are fora and threads that most can find a 'home' in and most feel fairly alien to.

[Cha]

214. I'm Sickened By the Slaughter of

innocent Israelis by the GD EVIL HAMAS TERRORIST SHIT Org.

They Own This SHIT.

[Beastly Boy]

135. Does it ever occur to anyone that Hamas is solely responsible for the fate of

one million Gazan children?

It was their decision to turn Gaza into a weapons depot. It was their decision to cross into Israel and murder civilians. It was their decision to take hostages and hide among the Gazan Palestinians.

It is Hamas that doesn't give a fuck about Gazan children.

They can still come out of their tunnels, surrender to the mercy of the International Court and spare the lives of 2.1 million Gazans. But something tells me this ain't gonna happen. Something tells me they don't give a fuck about the 2.1 million Gazans.

[MarineCombatEngineer]

139. It's occured to me that some

just refuse to acknowledge this and go to the bothsiderism argument, which is pure bullshit.

[Marius25]

141. A member of Congress who was in Israel just pointed out

Israel is doing roof knocks and sirens with arabic warnings on where Gazan civilians can hide from incoming attacks that aren't near Hamas buildings.

Something Hamas would never do for Israeli civilians.

Both sides are not the same no matter how many people want to pretend they are.

[MarineCombatEngineer]

142. +100. nt

[MorbidButterflyTat]

166. NO

There is no both sides going on here.

Some refuse to acknowledge there is a difference between the terrorists Hamas and innocent Palestinians, trapped in Gaza, and are themselves victims of Hamas. The bigotry is disgusting.

They asked for it? They "voted" for it? Because of course a terrorist organization would be totally honest and legit in their "elections," right? Just as honest and legit as Putin's elections. What happened to Putin's political rival, again? Where is he? Do you even know his name?

The "both sides" accusation is bullshit. NO ONE here is justifying or celebrating or defending Hamas!

JFC

[MarineCombatEngineer]

169. I never said there were some here defending Hamas,

and I've never equated the Palestinian people with Hamas, but there is bothsiderism going on here.

[Celerity]

181. No they are not. Collective punishment is a war crime.

[Beastly Boy]

194. Yes they are. You should read up on the Fourth Geneva Convention

Specifically, Articles 28 and 29:

ART. 28. — The presence of a protected person may not be used
to render certain points or areas immune from military operations.

ART. 29. — The Party to the conflict in whose hands protected
persons may be, is responsible for the treatment accorded to them
by its agents, irrespective of any individual responsibility which may
be incurred

https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/documents/atrocity-crimes/Doc.33_GC-IV-EN.pdf

Hamas is responsible for insuring that their militants provide adequate protection from hostilities to the protected persons (Gaza civilians in this case). If they do not, and deliberately or negligently expose civilians to the dangers of military operations, they may indeed be commiting the war crime of collective punishment.

[Celerity]

196. Good luck pushing that pretzel logic at a war crimes tribunal IF Israel goes in and wilfully

slaughters tens upon tens or even hundreds of thousands (or more) of civilians.

I do NOT think it will come to that, but IF it does (especially if we actually are talking about the higher numbers) then the outcome will be dire for those who ordered such a slaughter.

[Beastly Boy]

199. The Fourth Geneva Convention is founded on pretzel logic?

Mmm-kay, I believe we have reached the bottom of the barrel. Surprise me if you manage to venture any deeper.

[Celerity]

202. no, bur your attempted use of it is though

[Beastly Boy]

205. Are you referring to my attempted direct quote from the document, link included?

I even provided the Fourth Geneva Convention for Dummies version of it for your benefit. But feel free to ignore it if it doesn't benefit you in understanding the referred to articles..

[Celerity]

208. no, I am referring to your twisting of it in terms of application

[Beastly Boy]

210. I cited the damn text verbatim! What in it did I twist?

And what applications other than the text spells out are you talking about? Do you have a version of the Geneva Conventions that spells the applications out differently than the UN version?

[Cha]

216. That's All I've Ever Been

Saying.. so yeah it occurred to me right from the beginning.

I like the way you explained it, though.
🤷‍♂️💕🤷‍♀️💕

[Igel]

149. I had a thought.

It doesn't happen often, so bear with me.

Gazan Muslims killed over 750 Jews and some can't condemn the Gazans. But that means they *accept* the idea of collective punishment for Israeli treatment of Gaza. After all, the hatred/tension/resentment/murderousness ... whatever ... was simmering or building up. Pick your metaphor, it yielded 260 dead vulnerable young adults killed because of collective punishment, with hundreds more. Those killed were not pulling the levers of power. They were killed ...

Killed point blank with glee and joy for ... Collective punishment.

Since Saturday, I don't recall reading a single effing post that pointed out that this Gazan action was entirely ... collective punishment carried out on individuals of the collective. Just as the dead in Gaza from Hamasite actions will not be the entirety of the collective but a finite subset of the collective. Maybe 1000, maybe 20000, but not all 2+ million. One subset matters, the other is apparently chopped chicken liver. Ahem.

The Gazans raped and killed a Jewish woman and displayed her body? Because they hated *her*? No. She was a token, a representative of the collective. Their animus against her wasn't against *her* but against her ascribed *group*. Like in ST: TNG any Borg was just "a Borg." I could see an episode in which a pissed off red shirt killed a Borg in "revenge" and felt good about it. (Might have happened in TNG for all I remember.) The Gazans killed a bunch of individual Jews to avenge themselves on *Israel* the collective. Which individual Jews? Whichever, thems just details, they're all just Yehud. Right? Privatize benefit, socialize cost. Gee.

Hamas held 800+ people responsible in extremis and thousands more were wounded for the actions of the whole. How many voted for Netanyahu? I'm betting few ravers voted for Netanyu, and they were at 20% of the total and bias the average. Their group identity (ascribed from without) was the basis for their death sentence. Truth be told, I'm not sure I'd make choices different from that "whole" over the last 40 years. I mean, if I'm abused in 1920, 1930, 1940, 1950, 1960, 1970 ... you get the point? Palestinians went from overdogs to underdogs but kept the killing and rhetoric. Imagine--relativizing it to you--chants of "Death to Celerity! Celerity is our dog!" when you're weak then when you're in charge--it's repeated often, with consequences, until you're 50 ... I mean, after a while the abuse sinks in, it didn't matter your relative power, you look at your dead and the damage you've taken and you say, "No, you killed my grandfather in Germany, my other grandfather in Hebron, my brother in Joppa ... screw you!" And then you conclude that they don't just dislike you, they want you ethnically cleansed or dead because no good person's name begins with a "C". Not because of *your* guilt but because of *collective* "guilt". You resisted oppression for years. Maybe in the end you were a bit too sensitive, but PTSD and generational trauma and all that. Right?

What's left is the question of, "Who do I value more? Me or them?" So if 10 men came at you to kill you, and the choice was your death or theirs, would you want them dead or just say, "I'm but one person, they're ten--I accept death"? If you have a kid or parents or siblings and you saw that as your relative's choice, would you be okay? "Better my son die than the 10 that want him dead." Your vote?

You know, I'm pretty sure I'd object to that calculus. If I thought my son innocent and I had the skill, weapons, and ammo, I'm not sure what the number of death would-be murders would be that I'd accept before saying, "The lives of the killers are worth more than my son's." Esp if my son were 8 years old. (You know, at 19 we barely see eye to toe, much less eye to eye, and still I'd defend him from people that wanted him dead for identity and not actions.)

A good start would be disavowing genocide or Palestinian supremacy (that's the Palestinian flag--it asserts Palestinian supremacy a from the river to the sea and I've come to think of it as the Levantine equivalent of the "stars and bars&quot .


Now, the Gaza strip may be leveled in terms of buildings, but many can flee. Where? Gazans aren't tied down and if Dresdened, it's not like the entirety would be Dresdened in the same 20 hour period.

Note that Hamas wanted the West Bank--and Israeli Arabs--to rise up and kill the Yehud. That's the official word. Guess that didn't happen. It falls now to other Iranian-backed groupsto take action, may the Buchistas sprout sunflowers next to their greater sciatus notches. (Take that to refer to Iranians or the members of the servile Iranian-backed groups. Igel don't care.)

[orangecrush]

21. Welcome to DU

Edited for clarification.

Thanks for your concern.

[Igel]

110. There's a learning curve.

It's not steep, but moving from the initial assumptions is hard.

[GuppyGal]

5. Why in the world would you have 'sympathy' for Hamas ? You probably didn't want to really

say that. ????????????????

[Tomconroy]

13. If you look into BiBis dealings with Hamas you will be astonished.

And the history goes back farther.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/

[orangecrush]

16. Sorry I meant

For the Palestinian cause.

Edited for clarification.

[onecaliberal]

106. Wow. I guess MAGA speaks for you too.

[WhiteTara]

7. except that about one million "Gaza"

are children under the age of 15. This is their fault? Sure, I agree. Take out Hamas, but all Palestinians will suffer and many are innocent of atrocities done to others.

[roamer65]

23. ...and the violence, death and destruction of today will affect them for the rest of their lives.

Thus giving Hamas and Hezbollah more recruits.

[WhiteTara]

50. so let's wipe themn from the face of the earth?

Isn't that what the Nazis wanted to do with the Jews?

[roamer65]

59. Never ending cycle with us humans, eh?

Sad, sad, sad.

[WhiteTara]

66. It's a damn heartbreak.

[Earth-shine]

12. Let us not confuse Hamas with the rest of Palestinian people.

I have great sympathy for all innocent people on both sides.

My understanding is that the younger Israeli generations want a united Israel. The younglings don't have the ancestral hatred.

Maybe there's hope.

[roamer65]

19. That horse has left the barn here, sadly.

Some people here seem to want war. Let them have it.

…and when the repercussions of the wider war to come starts to hit them personally, just turn and walk the other way as I am going to.

[onecaliberal]

107. 👆🏻👆🏻👆🏻

[Igel]

167. I don't want war.

But I look at the throngs in Gaza that support Hamas and I'm not sure that I think that the innocent are a majority. Kids,women, men--old and young. Cheering murderous rapists. I can't consider them innocent, my gut says 'no'.

I'm a Slavist, so I know that totalitarian, ideological regimes have a great hold over their populations--and don't know what guilt/innocence to ascribe to that state. And I now that many--most?--go along to get along. You don't go along and you're swatted like a mosquito.

What's left is unattested: Most don't agree but are cowed into compliance. Pressure ramps up on the population, but at no point does the "go along" population have the organization or means to overthrow the minority government, popular when risk-free but painful when costly.

Why? If the government works closely with "civil society" there are scant means for any organization. Centralizing governments don't like power centers--"civil society" is composed of large organizations with government ties, not scads of small community-based organizations.

I see no out. It distresses me, but if the ostensible population supports the 10/7 atrocities, they claim guilt for themselves. The alt reality is that they resist the perpetrators because they think the perpetrators of 10/7 are bad and in need of punishment.

[MustLoveBeagles]

155. +1

[ShazzieB]

15. I have no sympathy for Hamas.

But Hamas and the Palestinian people are not synonymous, and I have sympathy for all people who are suffering.

[MustLoveBeagles]

152. Thank you

[MarineCombatEngineer]

161. +100.

That's something i do, I don't lump the Palestinians in with Hamas, except those that participated in the wholesale slaughter of innocent civilians.

[SalamanderSleeps]

18. There are at least 2 million people living in Gaza

I hope you are not saying that everyone there deserves to eat the shit sandwich that they had no hand in making.

It must be a fucking nightmare to be a kid in Gaza.

For many Gaza is an open-air prison with no parole.

[onecaliberal]

113. Yup, they even clarified their position to say "the Palestinian cause"

So fuck those innocent babies. Wrong place, wrong time.

[msongs]

20. your opinion of the cause of millions is defined by the behavior of a small subgroup ok

[hlthe2b]

38. Honestly. Would they have blamed the Jews who failed to vote out/take out Hitler for the Holocaust?

I do not understand this refusal to differentiate victims among the Palestinians as opposed to Hamas and other terrorist groups in the region. Especially the children who have known nothing but conflict and terror their entire lives.

Focus on Hamas and Hezbollah (assuming as I do, that they are part of this and will be a bigger part in the near future). They deserve everything coming to them. But celebrate killing innocent Palestinian civilians and children, while we rightfully are horrified by the deaths, kidnappings, and sexual assault of Israelis, including children? What the hell is going on among some on this thread? Temper the blood lust with just a little bit of reading, historical informing analysis, and understanding of who is REALLY the enemy here. It is not a 10-year-old Palestinian child in Gaza any more than it is a 10-year-old Israeli child on the "right" side of the territories or Gaza Strip.

[Igel]

170. if the population were 100% Jewish ...

I think the hypothetical collapses in on itself.

Sorry.

It's tough. The kids are conditioned to hate and resent, they have an incomplete understanding and they're fed conclusions based on that incompleteness.

After that ... I despise totalizing governments, and Hamas is one of them.

[ForgedCrank]

24. It sucks

to have to say this, but there is only one real way to end this problem. And even that will only be a longer, but short-term band-aid.
I also am afraid that is exactly what Israel is preparing to do.
None of this had to happen, it's an atrocity without excuse. I hope the Palestinians who had nothing to do with this are wise enough to evacuate, and do it very quickly.

[GoodRaisin]

53. Evacuate where?

How are they going to leave?

[paleotn]

81. Then they should exact revenge on those who perpetrated this atrocity.

For some strange reason, I don't see that happening.

[ForgedCrank]

123. No idea.

But personally, I consider that a lesser issue. Movements who are concerned should probably be coordinating with Israel and get some boats moving, and do it real quick.
They even elected Hamas to run the place. There is no peaceful end to this, Hamas just raped and slaughtered 1000 innocent people. My sympathies have waned and there is no good ending to this story.

[Igel]

171. Elsewhere.

Gaza isn't that small. There are open spaces and a (small) number of cities and towns. 5 mi x 25 mi (give or take). Beit Hanoun is pummeled, run a few miles to non-Beit Hanoun. Gaza City is pummeled, be elsewhere.

You may run from rubble pile to rubble pile, but unless it takes a month to reduce the Gaza Strip to an even depth of X meters above sea level you'll find the means to survive.

Then what? Dunno. At that point it's a question of whether it's infrastructure or cell structure that the Israelis want to eradicate.


(Part of me says that the "Flee" comment from the Israeli military was basically aspirational; part wants to say that it was directed really at Egypt. The 1% of me left over wrote this post.)

[GoodRaisin]

176. Glad to hear

they have places there to hide. It looks kind of small on a map for 2 million people to squeeze into. Survive the war, and next survive the humanitarian crisis.

[Dave says]

26. What? I am (maybe blissfully) unaware of that

I know they have hostages, but I was unaware of your second sentence. I hope and pray this doesn't descend into another ISIS sadistic insanity.

[orangecrush]

29. Saw footage

Young boy abducted at gunpoint and young woman wrists taped dragged by hair into vehicle.

Women and kids in bed of pickup truck being paraded and beaten with boards.

Go to YouTube and enter "Hamas hostages".

[Marius25]

58. Um, I'm sorry to break it to you, but Hamas is 100% identical to ISIS-level sadism

Mass torture, mass rape, beheading hostages on camera, etc.

[Dave says]

73. Oh no. That is so terrible to hear.

There is so much violence and heartlessness in the world today, it's very hard to breath.

[Igel]

173. 2nd gen Ikhwan and offshoots.

Okay, maybe 3rd gen. I still think I'm 21 when that was a long, long time ago.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

27. Palestinian, Hamas and Gaza are not interchangeable terms.

[obamanut2012]

32. They seem to be to a chunk of folks here

[WhiskeyGrinder]

34. I've seen the way people here talk about those in red states; it doesn't surprise me.

[hlthe2b]

42. Yup... One can hardly differentiate some of the posts from those on far RW websites lately.

[Igel]

174. Broad brushes are the default.

"Republicans" in the House might mean 7 or 200, but when it's really 7 we still assume 200.

It's the curse of the "bare plural"--is it 2 or more or the "type", the general case?

"Doctors say ...". Is that two doctors, a minority of doctors, most doctors, all doctors without exception? The headline clearly means one, but we clearly assume not-that-one.

You despise clarity, you get confusion.

Ideology and politics both (or the one) like confusion. Simpler that way, doncha know?

Words like "some, many, all, a few" are termed quantifiers. I like quantifiers. Some refer to number, some to time, some to other things. But it avoids the confusion, the ambiguity. It makes thinking and posts harder, to use quantifiers, but that, IMOH, is a good thing.

I've disposed of many a post when I realized that I started with "all" and ended with "a few" and must at some point confused "all = a few". I find the fallacy, swear at myself, and ^W my way to less stress.

[The_Casual_Observer]

96. It's frightening just how quickly this can happen.

"Just kill them all and be done with it! I'm off to bible class"

[Takket]

30. there's a line between Hamas and Palestinians

just like there is a line between Americans and MAGAts.

[Zeitghost]

36. The more apt comparison

Is Republicans and Magats.

The Palestinian people put Hamas in power and keep Hamas in power. Notice, their ex-pat communities aren't condemning these actions, they are cheering them on.

[hlthe2b]

55. The world does not distinguish between Anti-Trump Americans and Tump-supporting MAGATS. All they

see is that "WE"--the Americans--elected that monster. If you are happy with Palestinian citizens-- who have been victimized by, used as human shields by, and hold no power against Hamas-- being treated the same as Hamas and thus equally subject to targeted elimination, then please explain how you can expect that anyone in the world would see Democrats and other anti-Trump Americans less culpable for all that he and his minions have wrought and may well do so again.

[Igel]

178. People are myopic.

it's hard to make a lot of distinctions, esp if you don't know the parameters the distinctions are based on.

You want confused?

Try a Salafi Muslim confronted with a Torah-observant Christian. Jews don't eat pig, Xians do. Jews reject Jesus, Xians don't. A Torah-obervant Xian (a) keep kosher, modified or otherwise; (b) accepts Jesus. There are two bins, *only* two bins, where does somebody like me fit?

Answer, from numerous Salafi/Deobandi Muslims: This Irish-American boy, baptized into Christ and reading the NT (at least often in the past) is Orthodox Jewish. Full stop.

People are myopic. Those Muslims were just people who were being people.

[DontBelieveEastisEas]

76. There is no line between Americans and Magats

Draw a circle and label it 'All Americans'.

Color a portion of the circle red, to represent the Magat proportion.

You will see, no line separates them, they are inside of and part of being an American.

[uponit7771]

129. +1

[Docreed2003]

33. Hamas does not equal Palestinians

[WarGamer]

40. tyvm...

[moonshinegnomie]

41. they kind of do

most Palestinians support hamas.
hamas was voted into power in gaza

i havent seen protests from palestinians or arabs against hamas,only against israel.


maybe the solution is to have saudia arabia or another arab county go into gaza and wipe out hamas. but they wont. so its up to israel

[onecaliberal]

116. Gaza is already wiped out. They've been fucking bombed for decades.

[Igel]

180. Hardly.

They're what? #13 for world population growth?

Gaza is crowded for a reason. It wasn't 50 years ago but is not, alleged "genocide" being contra-indicated.

[uponit7771]

130. No they don't, America doesn't equal MAGA

[inthewind21]

225. So

by that logic Americans=MAGA. Congratulations, you just embraced MAGA!

[WarGamer]

39. But Hamas isn't the folks who live in GAZA...

I mean... if it's OK with you to kill 100 civilians for every one Hamas terrorist... just say it.

But to me that sounds like the Nazis razing villages in Czechoslovakia after the assassination of Heydrich in WW2.

[milestogo]

46. Who is "they"?

Did all Palestinians participate in this?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

49. One can oppose the occupation...

One can oppose the occupation. have empathy for the Palestinians, and hate Hamas and want to see them liquidated.

[orangecrush]

54. Going by what I saw

I saw the streets lined with Palestinians as the pickup truck drove past with the hostages cheering, and some even climbing into the truck bed where the hostages were laying to beat them with fists, sticks, and boards.

I certainly hope there are some decent people in Palestine and that they will not be harmed.

I did not see them in this situation.

[uponit7771]

133. That's anecdotal and even if it wasn't propaganda works, There are streets in America lined with KKK

... and MAGA supporting hate.

That doesn't mean America is hateful or even all Russians want to murder Ukrainians etc etc.

[CentralMass]

51. The civilians need to reject Hamas. I read th a recent poll showed 58% in Gaza support Hamas.

The number was 42% in the West Bank.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

56. Tough on terrorism, tough on the causes of terrorism

[CentralMass]

91. This is not a both sides issue as far as I am concerned. If the civilian population i supportive,

58% in GAZA support HAMAS, you are going to be subject to the retaliation that Isreal is going to respond with.

[hlthe2b]

61. And if you read the election results & polling in Putin's Russia he won with nearly 78% of the vote

Funny how subjugated populations in countries/states where the controlling factions KNOW how you voted, tend to fall in line. Ditto Erdogan in Turkey...

[TexasDem69]

82. Hamas was elected by the people

In 2006 to rule Gaza

[hlthe2b]

84. They are a subjugated people and have been for decades. "elected by the people" READ MY POST

Last edited Mon Oct 9, 2023, 09:28 PM - Edit history (1)

that is sheer BS. Just as claiming Erdogan or Putin's elections were the 'free will" of the populace. BULLSHIT

Not to mention Hamas has not allowed an election in 17 years! LOOK IT UP!
Please... you badly need to read some unbiased history of the region. I don't mean to be rude, but the disinformation circulating right now is just about to send me over the edge.

[onecaliberal]

120. Same here. So many ignorant comments.

[uponit7771]

136. +1

[Marius25]

163. There is just as much disinformation towards Israel here btw

[redqueen]

182. It's sad how many times this same information is corrected on here

but it just keeps popping up, over and over

[MarineCombatEngineer]

87. Elected by the people?

Thanks, I needed a good laugh today.

[Disaffected]

119. Give it a rest MCE.

Your snark interests few and adds nothing.

[MarineCombatEngineer]

121. Nope,

and kindly quit telling me what to do.

If I bug you so much, then use the ignore function or the alert function.

[uponit7771]

138. +1,

[The Magistrate]

219. The Odd Thing About That Election, Sir

Is that the chief cause of Hamas' success in it was a protest vote against corruption and crony-ism in the Palestine Authority leadership. Hamas, with its religious roots, had the name of honest men when it came to money and distribution of goods. So far as unreasoning willingness to resort to violence, there was at the time little to choose between the two bodies. Hamas was not put into power by any especial popular desire it assail Israel, and of course, once holding public authority, the pious men of Hamas proved every bit as corrupt as their predecessors.

[MarineCombatEngineer]

220. Excellent description sir.

It was a case of meet the new boss, same as the old boss.

[inthewind21]

226. And Trump

was elected in 2016 to sit in the White House. You taking responsibility for that today?

[uponit7771]

134. THIS !!!! ☝🏾☝🏾☝🏾

[Quixote1818]

52. This kind of broad sweeping condemnation of a melting pot of different peoples doesn't help

I get your point but the focus should just be on Hamas, not regular Palestinian people trying to live their lives. Hamas isn't the only political party in Gaza.

[Autumn]

57. The Palestinian cause and Gaza were not responsible for what happened to the hostages.

A lot of women and children will be killed as always and they didn't ask for it. Have sympathy for them. Put the blame where it belongs, on Hamas and Netanyahu.

[DontBelieveEastisEas]

217. Have sympathy for the Men too.

A lot of them didn't ask for it.

Women are often in favor of the violence and help with things. I know there are plenty of Magat women that would help things happen, even if that help is simply taking on more of the children watching duties.

Many times, the men are forced to fight. Put the blame where it belongs.

[Autumn]

221. I do have sympaty for them, I used women and children

as that is what the OP used. The blood thirst I am seeing here is shocking.

[JCMach1]

224. Hamas raised the level of Inhumanity and evil to 10... expect nothing

Short of an equivalent response.

[Autumn]

234. Hamas won't be the ones dying. It will be the innocents. nt

[JCMach1]

235. In war it is always lip service to preventing collateral damage

We shouldn't be talking about red lines without first discussing that Hamas crossed every single one.

Hamas will be effectively eliminated in the same way ISIS was before Israel stops.

Just imagine if 9/11 had been perpetrated by say a terrorist outpost in Palm Beach and Dade county. Would we have even waited a day?

I will only reflect that probably some good will come of this as likely we will be rid of both Netanyahu AND Hamas at the end of it all.

[orangecrush]

69. Your opinion of me

Is none of my business.

[honest.abe]

63. I still have sympathy for Palestinians. Hamas is the problem.

I suspect most Palestinians are horrified by what Hamas has done.

[tritsofme]

78. I'm not so sure. The reason that there haven't been elections in the Palestinian territories since

2006, and why Abbas is in year 18 of his 4 year term is that they know Hamas would win any new election in a landslide.

[honest.abe]

85. According to a PCPSR survey, 58% in Gaza and 42% in the West Bank support Hamas.

That was before what just happened. I suspect Hamas just lost alot of support from regular Palestinians.

https://coopwb.in/info/how-many-palestinians-support-hamas/

[tritsofme]

95. It doesn't give details on where the rest of the support is, but I doubt a large portion is going to

Fatah. Likely a large portion to parties even more extreme than Hamas.

Those numbers alone would be enough for them to easily form a government.

My guess is that this incident makes Hamas more popular, not less.

[honest.abe]

100. It's hard to say whats actually going in there but..

I do have Palestinian friends here in the US who are shocked by the recent events. Hamas is the problem regardless. They need to be eliminated.

[uponit7771]

140. The people didn't choose the current HAMAS leadership, that's a fact not in dispute.

[tritsofme]

145. That's nice, I guess? It's also not something I ever disputed...

If the Palestinian territories held elections last week, which would have been their first since 2006, Hamas would have won in a landslide. Today, they might win an even larger victory.

That’s why elections have been suppressed, not because anyone thinks Hamas would be rebuked at the polls.

[uponit7771]

147. I disagree, "they know Hamas would win any new election in a landslide." is intimating the people

... ****WOULD**** chose HAMAS if they were able by your own speculation.

I'd rather hear from the people and so far we haven't

[tritsofme]

154. Why do you suppose they have suppressed elections for so long?

It’s not because they fear a sea of moderation pouring in…

Abbas, the putative “president” is in year 18 of a 4 year term.

This is no secret. Fatah has known they could not win any new election, and that Hamas would triumph, so they simply cancelled them indefinitely.

Sorry you have a tough time accepting that?

[Happy Hoosier]

177. Not my impression so far...

… but I hope you’re right.

[Thunderbeast]

64. Their God commanded it.

Meanwhile, the Israeli's God "gave" them Palestine...largely because the western world could reconcile not their guilt for letting the holocaust happen, and looked the other way when refugees wanted to settle in their own homelands.

Indigenous People's Day is the perfect time to reflect on how easy it is to rationalize genocide in the name of a convenient diety.

[Marius25]

65. I think the whole world got a massive wake-up call this weekend

Many people have been truly oblivious to how evil Hamas and its supporters are, and what Israel has really been dealing with all these years.

I think that's a big part of why 99% of the world is siding with Israel.

[orangecrush]

77. Fuck them straight to hell

?si=xdl-b2GBVZGvquBP

[Marius25]

79. It's horrific.

Even in other countries, there are supporters of Hamas chanting "Gas the Jews"

This is Australia:

Link to tweet

?s=20

[uponit7771]

143. This is true, I rarely paid attention to ME fights because they all seemed to be too complicated but

... this is cut and dry.

[RockRaven]

71. Conflating Hamas, Gaza, and Palestinians is an unfortunately common error.

Sorry to see yet another example of it.

[orangecrush]

80. Whatever

?si=EwJGGRE78QLkxMMA

[onecaliberal]

122. Posting this does not make your point. Are there 2 million people in your video?

You probably believe Putin is democratically elected too.

[inthewind21]

227. Amazing

Huh.

[PatrickforB]

83. So, after Israel destroys Hamas and brings the terrorists to account, will

you still not 'give a shit' about the Palestinians?

I mean, how long have they lived in these enclosures? Have they had enough food? Enough water? Healthcare? Dental care? Childcare? Decent schools for their kids? Access to transportation? Jobs that pay a living wage? Do they feel safe from Israelis?

See, this is the problem. When people don't have enough to meet their basic needs, they get mad, just like you would, like any of us would. It's called oppression, and while no sane person would EVER condone the actions of Hamas, blaming the Palestinian families in Gaza and on the West Bank that are just trying to make a living and provide for their kids just makes the problems worse.

Everybody in the world has basic material needs, and when these need aren't met because of oppression, then we have an imbalance. When such an imbalance exists, other bad players like Russia and Iran step in and escalate the situation, causing the deaths of hundreds of innocent people.

The basic question we should always be asking when something like this happens is who profits from the carnage?

We live in an oppressive world, one where the greed of a few causes privation among the many. Most of us make it through OK, but ignoring the needs of a whole people just breeds hatred and violence. Is that what we now stand for?

Israel has a right to exist and the right to defend itself. But it does not have the right to systematically oppress a whole people any more than any other government in the world does.

[Marius25]

104. The problem with your argument is other oppressed groups haven't resorted to this

Black people were slaves in America for centuries, and didn't go around mass murdering innocent civilians, raping kids, setting elderly people on fire, beheading people on TV.

I don't recall MLK being a violent terrorist in his quest to obtain equal rights and end oppression.

What Hamas did has absolutely no justification.

[PatrickforB]

201. Well, that isn't quite true.

Here is a list of well-known slave rebellions in North America:
-Stono Rebellion, 1739.
-The New York City Conspiracy of 1741.
-Gabriel's Conspiracy, 1800.
-German Coast Uprising, 1811.
-Nat Turner's Rebellion, 1831.

My point is that blaming all Palestinians for the terrorist acts perpetrated by Hamas is bad policy. By punishing the Palestinian civilians along with the Hamas terrorists, Israel may only be perpetuating the hatred. I'm not trying to minimize the horrors Hamas has inflicted on innocent people. But I am saying, and I am right in saying it because it is a fact, that the Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank have been heavily oppressed for some time, essentially living under a longstanding and sometimes brutal military occupation, and for the most part had nothing to do with this. Yet they will be hurt and will doubtless continue to lack basic human necessities. It is this failure to fulfill basic human needs that plants the seeds of terror in the first place.

When people have peace, decent jobs, clean water and food, electricity, access to transportation, shelter, clothing, decent schools for their kids - a sense there is an actual future for them, then they don't do things like terror attacks. That is the real point here. Innocent people have died and are continuing to die because a few people greedy for money, power or both engaged in long-term economic oppression of a substantial part of their population.

So, yeah, wipe out the Hamas assholes, but don't kill a bunch of innocent Palestinian civilians in retaliation for Hamas killing innocent Israeli civilians. The world had pretty much forgotten the Palestinians, you know. Maybe it is time to remember they too are human, and like all of us, deserve to have the basic material necessities of life as well as being able to hope in a better future.

[inthewind21]

229. The problem

with YOUR argument is you think slaves COULD have gone around raping and killing "innocent citizens." This is the most asinine statement/comparison ever. But you are right, MLK wasn't the terrorist in that battle. The white American citizen was. So by your definition it was ALL white citizens guilty for the acts of slavers/segregationists/Jim Crow,/Lynchings/ Police Brutality (and the list goes on) yes?

And while you're talking about what slaves didn't do, should we give black people the same consideration you are currently advocating for Israel? Should all white people all across the US south be "taken out" to stop the evil that was slavery and the hostility and pure hate of it that is still alive and well in the U.S. to this very day? Is it YOUR fault we HAD a MAGA President, we still have a MAGA House of Representatives in charge and we now have a MAGA Supreme court? After all, America voted them into power. Bottom line, are you willing to take 100% responsibility for all the ills/mis-deeds of America like you are trying to pin on ALL Palestinians?

[onecaliberal]

124. Hear fucking hear!!

[pnwmom]

88. Hamas are evil, but they aren't the average Palestinian. nt

[orangecrush]

92. 58% support

In Gaza.

See post 85.

[pnwmom]

94. That number, from a single poll, came BEFORE this attack.

And, if it's correct, indicates that many Palestinians feel oppressed by the Israeli government. It doesn't represent the portion of Palestinians who supported the Hamas attack on Israel.

[uponit7771]

150. +1, and the number is relatively low seeing they're the only organization to run anything.

[pnwmom]

184. And almost half the population is under 18. Children aren't answering polls about Hamas.nt

[uponit7771]

185. +1

[Celerity]

200. +10000000000000000

[uponit7771]

148. That's horrible numbers for HAMAS, thx for this polling proves there are not enough people behind

... that terrorist group for them to be in control.

[Swede]

90. There's a video of beheaded Israeli soldiers.

One of many ihorrendous videos in this thread I posted earlier.

https://www.democraticunderground.com/100218345769

[inthewind21]

230. Why

would you spread the terror? They thank for you for sharing and getting their word out.

[Swede]

238. Because this stuff has to be witnessed.

nt

[TheRickles]

109. Cutting off water and electricity to Gaza will kill hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians.

Not to mention the intense bombing raids that are sure to follow. We (the US) have to stop Bibi's massive over-reaction before it's too late. As angry as we may all be at Hamas, this is a primitive response that leads nowhere. Hopefully Israel will wake up from its trauma trance and look beyond violence for a solution.

[TexasDem69]

233. What solution would you propose

For the individuals who beheaded babies?

[applegrove]

114. Palestinians are not all Hamas.

[mactire]

131. If you think you're not confused then you really don't understand what's going on

Before 1948 that part of the world, under British dominion, was known as Palestine. It was a land made up of native Palestinians, Christian sects, and Jews of ancient heritage. Sometimes it’s been referred to as “the holy land” ) gulp). Under the auspices of the United Nations it was given to “Israel”, for Jewish descendants, and in 1948 a seed was planted, in which 530 Palestinian villages were besieged,with 13,00 Palestinian civilians killed, 750 thousands expelled from their homes becoming refugees; in other words a Zionist ethnic cleansing. The US position was wrong ( like our position with Iran in 1953) , and the result has led to so much turmoil and violence[I don’t condone] . Many of the Palestinians in the oppressed occupied zones don’t condone or support Hamas just as many Israelis don’t support Netanyahu or Zionism[I get frequent notices from JVP, Jewish Voices for Peace] . It is a fucked-up situation, like so much of that part of the world , that is hard to understand, but so manipulated by outside influences that have no morality or empathy. I stand with all the innocent victims that have no voice that can be heard over the cacophony of the so- called leaders of the differing factions.

[Fiendish Thingy]

118. That blanket lack of compassion is precisely how genocide begins and is justified

Hamas is not Palestine, just as Netanyahu is not Israel.

[liberalmuse]

125. This situation is horrific.

I understand the reactions, the anger, disgust and anguish over Hamas actions which are inexcusable. This is exactly the reason terrorists do what they do, to inflame and cause the opposition to escalate and continue the cycle of brutality they use to justify their actions.

This is why the more corrupt and opportunistic politicians gleefully jump on horrible acts of terrorism like this for their own gain. Think tanks figured out long ago that triggering raw emotions in people through bombardment of incendiary media is a great way to control them like Pavlovian dogs.

It’s important to step back and look at the overall history, not to absolve or justify, but to try and understand. The fact is, people who just want to live their lives in peace are the ones who have and will continue to suffer the greatest. The Palestinian people and even a number of Israelis and others are being used like disposable pawns to further agendas on both sides.

[tornado34jh]

132. I don't care what anyone says, screw Hamas, screw that bastard Likud party

They are all at fault for this conflict. Who do you think is in the Likud party, the one currently in power? The only reason Netanyahu is in power is because he courted the religious zealots. What, I'm expected to give sympathy for that right-wing government? Look, the Palestinians have a lot of blame, but yet in the UN, the representative isn't Ismail Haniyeh, the chairman of Hamas or even Mahmoud Abbas of the Fatah party. It's Riyad Mansour. Look, while we are at it, when are we going to start blaming Iran, Qatar, and Libya? Even if there were no Palestinians supporting Hamas, you think Hamas isn't not supported by other countries? There is more than one political party in Palestine, not just Hamas. But Hamas is getting weapons from Iran, Syria and likely Qatar. When are we going to start blaming those countries? Remember, Fatah and Hamas had a civil war in 2007.

Even if Hamas is gone and the Palestinians were to stop supporting Hamas, you think this would change anything?

[TeamProg]

137. It's difficult to not get emotional, but the Palestinians have been in a living hell for decades. No

real freedom, occupied, lack of movement.

You wrote: ""They are getting exactly what their hand calls for "" - that is what they have been getting all along.

When all peaceful options are done, violence is the only other answer.

Um, what would you do if the GOP became a violent authoritarian mob and took away any right to vote and other rights of true freedom? Would you just sit back and take it?

Seriously, what WOULD YOU DO??

[tornado34jh]

159. The Israel government IS a right-wing government, people here seem to forget that.

Let's face it, Palestinians have tried peaceful things, that didn't work, plus there is settler violence. When they have nothing to lose, there comes a point where it is basically kill or be killed. Hamas didn't just come out of nowhere. It came out of the First Intifada when they were then part of the Muslim Brotherhood. If the GOP was an authoritarian mob (and it probably will be at the rate this is going) and taking away my rights, I would fight back. What do the Palestinians have to lose? They are outgunned, and all that. Besides, Hamas doesn't even control all of Palestine. They control the Gaza Strip. While the Palestinian Authority controls the West Bank (i.e. the Fatah). We're acting like Hamas controls all of Palestine when they don't.

[MarineCombatEngineer]

164. So because Israel has a RW govt.

Hamas was justified to kidnap, beat, slaughter hundreds of innocent men, women and children?

[TeamProg]

187. More than a RW government, get a life. nt

[MarineCombatEngineer]

188. Get a life?

Is that the best you can do?

Pretty weak sauce there.

Again, so because Israel has a RW govt. Hamas was justified to kidnap, beat, torture and murder innocent men, women and children?

BTW, I've had and still am having, a very fulfilling life so far, but thanks for your concern.

[MorbidButterflyTat]

228. Why are you so condescending?

The poster did NOT say Hamas was justified. YOU said that.

Stop bullying people who disagree with you. It's ugly.

[tornado34jh]

189. No, I do not think it was justified

However, I do not think that the government of Israel has helped. Even the US has been critical of the settlements program going on in Palestine. I think Palestinians need to make a decision on who they support. I don't believe that putting Fatah back in power would have done much better. But as I said, Hamas doesn't control all of Palestine. This occupation had been going on long before Hamas was even founded. Tell me, outside of Fatah and Hamas, what other political parties exist in Palestine? Even if the Palestinians rejected Hamas, and Hamas was eliminated, other than Fatah, who else is there? Also, who do you think is supplying weapons to Hamas? We're acting like Palestine supposedly is the only state that Hamas is supported by. I don't believe that putting Fatah back in power would have done much better. As the previous poster pointed out, if you had a government that was taking your rights and was taking your land, should you just take it and not fight back? Again, I do not condone what Hamas has done. But to say that the Palestinians are the only ones responsible for this conflict is being stupid. There is plenty of blame to go around, and it's not just Israel and Palestine that are at fault.

[MarineCombatEngineer]

192. I never ever said that the Palestinians are the only ones responsible,

what I've said is that Hamas is 100% responsible for the massacre in Israel.

[tornado34jh]

239. That I agree on

However, the Gaza Strip borders Egypt, while the West Bank borders Jordan; neither border each other. We know Egypt is blocking the Gaza Strip, So how is Hamas getting all the weapons if it is blocked? But this is just as much as a religious war as it is a territorial war. There are violent settlers in Palestinian territories. Assuming that the Palestinians rejected Hamas and Fatah, who else is there to support them?

[TeamProg]

186. Thank you.

[Silent3]

204. In that situation, I might resort to some forms of violence to fight back...

...but I wouldn't, say, abduct a GOP family and make family members watch as I execute a son or daughter in front of the rest.

[quakerboy]

144. The Republicans feel the same

About immigrants from southern countries, people who live in cities, Muslims, women, etc

[budkin]

151. I'm almost always on the Palestinian side

Not this time. This is absolutely sick.

[orangecrush]

191. Same here.

[AdamGG]

157. Fuck Hamas and hopefully, they can be eliminated, but

Israel has occupied the West Bank and Gaza over 50 years ago. 50 years of funding settlers who perpetually take more of the best parcels of land in the West Bank, who are allowed to carry uzi's while the Palestinians are jailed for throwing stones, is bound to breed extremists.

Instead of funding settlers for 50 years, if Israel had spent that money on schools and hospitals and jobs for the Palestinians to compensate then from being displaced from Israel proper and to have the situation around them be more stable, would there be as much extremism now?

That said, Israel has been surrounded by countries calling for their extermination from day one and it's a nearly impossible situation to get right.

[Marius25]

162. Considering the Arab League declared war on Jews before Israel existed

and the Palestinian Mufti met with Hitler to have all Jews in Arab lands exterminated, yes this extremism would have existed regardless of what Israel did.

I don't think people here understand this conflict. Hamas doesn't hate Israel because of settlers (who aren't even in Gaza) or apartheid. They hate Israel because it's made up of mostly Jews.

[iemanja]

198. Hamas isn't all Palestinians

Your comment makes no sense. Should the world lose sympathy for all Americans because of Trump?
Should you be put in jail because Trump is a criminal? Should you be killed because US White Supremacists kill people? That's the logic of your excuse.

[pfitz59]

207. The hostages will all likely be killed

Israel is building a massive retaliatory strike. Guaranteed.

[orangecrush]

231. Sadly I agree

And hope I am wrong

Negotiations are probably off the table at this point

[Cha]

212. Mahalo, orangecrush.. I didn't

even have to see the vids to feel this way.. just read about it.

This ALL on Hamas.. No fucking "both sides".

[pnwmom]

218. The problem is that orangecrush is equating Hamas

to Gazans in general. Half of Gazans are children under 18. A fourth are adult women. That means a fourth are adult men, and only a small group of them are Hamas.

And no one elected Hamas to lead Gaza.

[SunImp]

232. 100% on point here

I don't get why some can't understand that

[AdamGG]

241. Hamas did win an election to gain control of Gaza

There was a legitimate election that Hamas won to take control of Gaza in 2006. Fatah was re-elected in the West Bank at that time and the two areas have had different governing groups since then.

I don't equate all Gazans with the terrorists and the people there have been living in a state of desperation which can lead to extremism. But, Hamas was elected by the people of Gaza to lead it.

[pnwmom]

242. They haven't been given the chance to vote in a new legislature or President since then.

The people of Gaza didn't mean to install Hamas PERMANENTLY.

[orangecrush]

222. Thank you, Cha

It's a horrible situation no matter how you look at it

[Cha]

223. Yes, it is.. and I've read that

even msnbc was whitewashing HAMAS.. I hope that's wrong.

[SickOfTheOnePct]

236. I have sympathy

For the innocent people, especially the children, who will die because of the actions of Hamas.

But I 10000000% support Israel’s right to what they need to do in order to root out and destroy Hamas and those who support them.

It is possible to hate the death of of innocents and still understand why it has to happen.

[BannonsLiver]

237. I feel bad for the children involved

But I certainly understand and identify in many ways with the sentiment in the OP at this point.

[Stuart G]

240. I also feel bad for the children involved.