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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsMy thoughts on Israel & Palestine
I'm going to try & write this as best as I possibly can using logic, rational, & critical thinking. I'm going to try my very best to leave reactionary emotions out of this. I understand not everyone will agree with what I say & that's absolutely fine. I'm not looking to argue with anyone & I respect your difference of opinion because we learn & become more educated from ideas that are different than our own ❤️
I'm seeing lots of calls saying "Hamas must be eradicated!"
I don't believe however you can actually eradicate an ideology.
It will ALWAYS be here. Forever.
And that's reality.
Now please don't get me wrong, I don't support Hamas, what they did is absolutely gross & disgusting.
I've seen comparisons to how we eradicated the Nazi's.
The Nazi's were never destroyed, they fled to South America & we're seeing a massive rise in Nazi's in this country. In fact just today someone posted an article about this very thing happening in Florida today in this very forum.
Ideology is impossible to destroy.
And it's an endless loop which is constantly fed.
It only gets worse....So what can we do? Dampen it through compassion & empathy.
True solutions require logic & rational, critical thinking instead of emotional reactionary violence. And I understand that's incredibly difficult right now for many people on both sides of this conflict but it's something we must accept if we truly want to end all of this once & for all. Understand that for every innocent civilian killed in this conflict we're creating more & more violent extremists.
Do you remember during Desert Shield & Desert Storm how that argument of "we're creating more terrorists by killing innocent people" was the argument that Democrats made against the conflicts? That is what's happening in this conflict. Be it from Hamas or Israel, both sides are fully responsible for creating this endless circle of violence that's a loop of infinity. Look at how long this conflict has gone on for. It's been almost 75 years at this point. And what's happened? It's only gotten worse.
I am staunchly anti-war, I am staunchly anti-violence. My heart hurts for all of the innocent people being killed in this conflict which should not be happening at all & should've been solved decades ago.
So exactly how do we solve it?
That's a very good question & one not easily answered.
I think what needs to happen is Israel must stop harming the Palestinian people. We need to be honest here with things. The bulldozing of Palestinian homes, the murder of Palestinians who are innocent like little kids at the hands of snipers must end. How is what Israel is doing different than how the US Government treated treated First Nations people in this country during the 19th century as they settled the west? I think that's a very fair comparison.
And on the other side of the coin terrorists must stop attacking Israel. Suicide bombers, the killing of innocent people must stop. Violence only causes more violence.
To solve this question we must look at the root cause if it.
Israel needs to stop land grabbing. Period. That is literally the root cause of everything. Land. I think right now borders should be drawn up & the entire country split in half. I know that will be a very unpopular decision among some people here but outside of that, what is a logical solution?
If a wall must be built similar to the wall that divided both West & East Germany then so be it.
The entire situation though needs a complete reset & I truly fear this conflict has the means to spread & it likely will unless we take action swiftly. We can't let that happen because this is highly likely to be the catalyst that triggers World War 3, even more so than Ukraine.
An immediate cease to all of the fighting, an immediate release & return of all hostages, & a full on summit between leaders that truly solves the problem entire & doesn't end until there's a solution must happen immediately....
Godspeed innocent people of Israel & Palestine....Godspeed 🕯️🕯️🕯️
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Donkees
(33,707 posts)
AntivaxHunters
(3,234 posts)
onenote
(46,142 posts)And you think that would satisfy Hamas? That Hamas wouldn't continue lobbing rockets into the Israeli half (what wall would prevent that)?
Do the Gazans support Hamas and its tactics or not? If they don't then eradicating Hamas should go a long way to creating conditions for peace. If they do, then giving them half of Israel isn't going to lead to peace.
AntivaxHunters
(3,234 posts)Can you present a solution which offers a complete end to the conflict? Hamas has specifically cited the occupation of Gaza for their attack, please keep that in mind
Tetrachloride
(9,624 posts)Land rearrangement
Truth commission
Trials
Food
Medicine
Schools
Family planning
AntivaxHunters
(3,234 posts)
BlueCheeseAgain
(1,983 posts)There's no making peace with them. There may be peace with a different Palestinian leadership, but not with them.
JI7
(93,616 posts)And then it can be like the rest of the middle east and the Jewish populations in those places.
That's what it's being called for. That's why the tyoe of attacks that take place happened.
AntivaxHunters
(3,234 posts)onenote
(46,142 posts)AntivaxHunters
(3,234 posts)Mosby
(19,491 posts)The Jews indigenity goes back to about 1500BCE.
When Jesus, Mary and Joseph lived in the West Bank, Islam didn't even exist yet.
AntivaxHunters
(3,234 posts)Mosby
(19,491 posts)There have been Jews living in Jerico for example, a town in the West Bank, for 3000 years. Hebron, also in the West Bank, of the oldest Jewish city in the world.
onenote
(46,142 posts)Trying to understand what conclusions your post leads to.
AntivaxHunters
(3,234 posts)onenote
(46,142 posts)relates to my post, which questioned whether Hamas would view the division of Israel in half as satisfactory and cause them to no longer engage in hostilities against Israeli citizens?
Raven123
(7,797 posts)Not criticizing your suggestion, just can’t figure out how to facilitate a transition.
Omnipresent
(7,450 posts)Land grabbing is a distinct, monumental problem.
AntivaxHunters
(3,234 posts)Frasier Balzov
(5,061 posts)Mosby
(19,491 posts)Mosby
(19,491 posts)Is that the Arab/Muslim world is unwilling and incapable of accepting a Jewish nation in their midst.
Iran is a good example of this mindset, there are no settlements in Iran, no wars between the two, no interaction at all and yet the government has a long term, ongoing hatred of Israel.
Frasier Balzov
(5,061 posts)He just wasn't able to get the stubborn Jews of his day to accept his divine vision.
Mosby
(19,491 posts)Like Luther.
Lonestarblue
(13,480 posts)I would also add that Jerusalem needs to be governed and kept separate from both Israeli and Palestinian control, as it once was. Over the years Israel has gained more control and the results have not been positive. At one point a few years ago, some Israelis were arguing that the Al Aksa mosque should be torn down to reconstruct an Israeli temple because they believed the mosque had been built on the ruins of the temple. Jerusalem is a holy city for all the Abrahamic religions. It needs to be a sanctuary city, probably governed by the UN.
New borders need to be drawn that are fair in terms of water supplies and fertile land. Israel has taken control of both. Will this be difficult to do? Absolutely—and impossible with Israel’s current hard-right government and Gaza’s reliance on HAMAS. The only solution that might help in the shirt term while a longer-term solution is being worked on is to have a UN peacekeeping force take over Israel’s administration of Gaza and the West Bank, and give Palestinian lands there back to Palestinians. The people in Gaza live in a hellhole. They have been unable to rebuild their homes or businesses damaged from Israeli shelling because Israel controls access to building supplies and everything else in Gaza. That’s why it’s so easy for them to shut off all access to food and water. A nonpartisan administration of Palestinian areas would help.
BlueCheeseAgain
(1,983 posts)You may not be able to completely eradicate an ideology, but you can certainly defeat the organizations that espouse it. Whether that's Nazi Germany, the Empire of Japan, Al Qaeda, ISIS, or Hamas.
Other than that, I think what you're saying is a two-state solution. There was a time when it seemed everyone agreed that was the ultimate answer. Unfortunately, that ship mostly sailed in the late 1990s, with the failure of the Oslo Accords. That was the closest we ever got to a lasting solution. Arafat had an offer, that while imperfect in many ways, would have created a universally-recognized Palestine on most of the West Bank and Gaza. That Palestine would be celebrating its 25th birthday right now.
I remember what a very pro-peace Israeli friend told me at the time-- the Palestinians were negotiating with the most left-wing government Israel had ever had, led by Ehud Barak. If they couldn't make a deal with him, they'd never accept anything. Right after that came the second intifada, the peace movement lost credibility in Israel, and peace has gotten ever farther away since.
This is probably the worst moment in the area since 1973. This was Israel's 9/11, and like America after our own 9/11, the nation is united in anger and a desire to destroy the perpetrators of this massacre. This isn't like the Olympics massacre, or the bus bombings after Rabin died, or anything like that. I just don't see how peace is possible in the foreseeable future.
moonshinegnomie
(4,021 posts)in 1947 the UN agreed to split the british mandate into both arab and jeiwsh states in may 1948
come may 1948 the jewish area declared independence. and were attacked by lebanon,syrial,egypt,iraq and saudi arabia
israel won the war and an armistice was put in place basically at the mandates borders
in 1967 egypt blocked israel from using straits of tiran shipping lanes from which israel got 90% of their oil. israel had warned egypt that doing so woudl be considered an act of war. they also threw out the un peacekeepers that were in the sinai keeping the waterway open and started to move troops to the israeli border
israel went in,reopened teh straits and seized gaza,teh west bank,east jerusalen and the sinai. before 1967 jews had been banned from east jerusalem by the jordan government. israeli re-opened it to all religions
in 1973 eqypt and syria attacked israel on the holiest day of the jewish year,yom kippur. israel managed to beat them back and at the end of teh war the borders established after 1967 were mostly intact
in 1979 the camp david accords were signed. israel gave the sinai back to egypt in exchange for peace
since then the palestinans have said no to a real peace unless they get back everything they lost in 1967 including east jerusalem. thats never going to happen. israel know if that were to happen jews would once again be banned from their holy sites
what israel should do (after clearing hams out) is announce that gaza is goign to be an independt state. but will be 100% cut off from israel. no border crossings,instead an impenatrable wall like the no mans land between north and south korea. no supplies coming from israel into gaza. a complete severance.
as to supplies coming by sea israel shoudl impose a blocake of teh port of gaza. inspect every ship coming in to make sure its not carrying weapons.
anything else they need let it come thru egypt. like a said a complete blockade of anything from israel.
and let gaza know that if they try and attack after the new state is established they will be flattened. razed to the ground .
totodeinhere
(13,688 posts)elimination and destruction of Israel. And seeing Palestinians dancing in the streets celebrating the murder of innocent Jewish children is beyond sickening.
Martin Eden
(15,628 posts)That is a true statement which applies to our wars of choice, and to the conflict between Israelis and Palestinians.
To end the violence, one or both sides must reassess and change their long term goals.
This confict, at its core, is a war for land. The creation of Israel in the wake of WW2 and the Holocaust established a Jewish state in land largely inhabited by Palestinians. Early in its history Israel fought wars of survival which threatened its existence.
However, trying to attach blame to one side or the other based on who drew first blood is IMO almost impossible to verify and serves no useful purpose in finding a solution to this intractable conflict.
It is intractable in large part because both peoples want the same land. Israel, by far the wealthier and more powerful, has steadily occupied more of the land in the West Bank and bottled up a portion of the Palestian people on the Gaza strip. Israeli security forces also control the roads connecting the West Bank settlements.
International consensus, such as it exists, is the so-called "Two State Solution" with a sovereign Palestian state in the West Bank.
Which raises 3 questions:
1. How can a Palestinian state be sovereign when its land is sliced and diced by Jewish settlements and the roads connecting them?
2. Would the Jewish settlers be amenable to living in the Palestian nation state with no Israeli forces there to protect them?
3. Under what circumstances would the Jewish settlers abandon their homes in the West Bank, either voluntarily or by force?
I think the answer should be obvious:
Ain't gonna happen. The "Two State Solution" is a cruel joke.
I know the current flash point is the Gaza Strip, but this is all tied together over conflicting goals for the land. Given the continual expansion of settlements despite official UN and US policy against it, actions on the ground reveal the long term goal of Israel (at least the right wing when it's in power, which is most of the time) is ultimately to have a greater Israel encompassing all of the Holy Land.
For Netanyahu and his ilk, they will do whatever it takes however long it takes.
They know there will be ongoing violence with a tragic price to pay, but they are unwilling to give up that goal.
Will the Palestian people be willing to abandon their ancestral homeland and if so, which Arab nation(s) will take them in?
All of which is my attempt to EXPLAIN the situation -- not in any way shape or form to JUSTIFY what Hamas has done. Living impoverished in an open air prison for decades breeds terrorism, entirely predictable.
If my explanation is not an accurate assessment of the history or current situation, I am willing to be better educated on the basis of objective history and verifiable facts.
My intent here is a better understanding of the situation and why it is so intractable with no solution in sight.
onenote
(46,142 posts)The military wing of the ANC fought apartheid in South Africa by focusing on military and government targets and adopted a policy that disavowed targeting civilians.
So Hamas's strategy of killing innocents isn't inevitable. It's a conscious choice.
Martin Eden
(15,628 posts)Especially given the history of this conflict, which is similar to Apartheid in SA yet very different in some of the particulars.
And again, I want to reiterate I'm not trying to justify Hamas. IMO their actions are destructive to the people they claim to represent (and of course to their victims).
JCMach1
(29,202 posts)The politics of the situation is there will be no quarter. And yes, regardless of the consequences, they will be eliminated.
Cease fire will not happen until Israel has finished the job.
It is awful, it's horrific on all sides, but I can't see it ending without the equivalent of a Rome v. Carthage type equivalent.
Despite sympathy I have politically for the Palestinian people, a modern state cannot let a terrorist attack of this level stand. Regardless of the humanity and politics, Israel has a right to end the threat.
LiberaBlueDem
(1,167 posts)Israel needs to covertly take down the Hamas leaders with CIA assistance.
Take out 100 of them and pay the fighters a decent sum of money to lay down their weapons
The 1,000 invaders, had they pocketed a nice sum of money would not have invaded.
We send $3.8 B a year to Israel, plenty of cash to buy peace is there.
ForgedCrank
(3,096 posts)tried to dissect this issue for decades. They have failed each and every time because there is one sticking point that cannot be overcome.
That is Hamas. Their public statements are a veil for their true goals that we see from time to time, and that is the complete destruction of Isreal and the Jews. Nothing else will ever satisfy them, therefor there is no middle ground there. And it' snot just Hamas, it is Islam overall. one needs to look no further than all of the nations over there on board with supporting this blatant mayhem, murder, and terrorism.
And even if they did get back the entire state of Israel, and they killed every last Jew, they just have a list of who's next.
But you are correct that an ideology can't really be exterminated, but they can be made irrelevant. Your example of the Nazi party is a good example, but it's gone. Yes, there are some nuts out there who fly flags in their bedroom and wear arm patches at public marches, but they are insignificant, and society simply mocks them. They have no power, and they never will.
GenXer47
(1,204 posts)There is no intrinsic brotherhood between the United States and Palestine, nor between the United States and Israel.
While we strive for a more perfect union - what I think everyone in here wants - an open society that welcomes all, equally - the Middle East countries seem hung up on race/religion/ethnicity. They're stuck in the past. This is no way to organize ourselves in the 21st century.
Primitive behavior from primitive people should not be a surprise. I'm going back to nap time - somebody wake me when Israel comes clean about its nuclear weapon arsenal.