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All wars are brutal, ugly and inhumane. And it seems to me that that ugliness has impacted DU.
From what I've seen over the past few days, we are totally fractured over what has happened in Israel. Some place the blame on Israel, some place the blame on Palestinians, some place the total blame on Iran for fomenting, arming and enabling Hamas, some still dream of a two-state solution, and some are totally ignorant of the mid-East conflict but are putting up mindless posts. Nonetheless, Hamas has lit a fuse that will cause countless deaths on all sides for the foreseeable future. And it seems this was their aim.
If we here on DU can't reach common ground, it's not surprising that the never-ending Middle-East conflict has been going on since Israel declared statehood in 1948.
I've been involved in a few of these threads, and I find the hostility of some to be beyond what's acceptable. I never reply to posts that will only lead to more disagreement and hostility.
I guess my major complaint/bitching is our incivility towards each other. We're better than this and we must try to keep it civil.
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Fichefinder
(425 posts)..it's time for an international solution. A UN peacekeeping zone?
hlthe2b
(113,968 posts)Mosby
(19,491 posts)Unifil in Lebanon was filmed just in the past few days, pulling their vehicles off to the side of the road in order to let Hezbollah "militants" and SAM batteries to pass by.
Israel will never delegate security to international forces.
moniss
(9,056 posts)the "rules" under which these forces are supposed to conduct themselves. Many times they are made to be more of a symbolic presence and are not supposed to engage or restrain the other forces.
totodeinhere
(13,688 posts)four days. However well intentional your suggestion is a non starter I am afraid.
hlthe2b
(113,968 posts)The antagonism and willingness to reframe someone's fairly innocuous comment into something not stated and apparently not intended is hard to see. As is referencing the most sensational "rumors" or stories not proven--that which is, after all, horrific enough. And for those whose knowledge of history is limited and for the rest whose knowledge might be rusty or largely forgotten, I would hope it would spur all on to question and read. We can do better.
Mosby
(19,491 posts)Is that there seems to be at least two different set of historical facts being presented during discussions. It's always been like that here at DU anyway. That's why positions don't change. People can't even agree how we got here.
moniss
(9,056 posts)well stated.
SunImp
(2,705 posts)disagree with. It's not the first time these Karens have jumped to dogpile on good people making innocuous comment or performing harmless actions
Maru Kitteh
(31,759 posts)
Disaffected
(6,401 posts)considering the topic of this thread. 
yardwork
(69,364 posts)Fact.
Marius25
(3,213 posts)As a Jew, seeing the frequent both sides arguments really disgusts me. I've been in talks with other Jewish communities, and they feel betrayed by a lot of the left who has praised the Palestinian/Hamas response or just refused to condemn it. You have the Free Palestine movement calling for all Jews to be gassed - proving the movement has nothing to do with Israel, but hating Jews. You have student groups cheering on Hamas and their supporters. And the story about the murdered children/babies takes it to a whole new level of evil. Hamas and those who support them are squarely in ISIS territory as the most evil group on Earth.
I don't know how anyone can both sides this. Nothing Israel has ever done compares to this.
Happy Hoosier
(9,535 posts)it's very specific elements.
Most of us recognize that we can't "yeah, but" the Hamas atrocities, regardless of Israel's own transgressions.
yardwork
(69,364 posts)There have always been elements of the left that are antisemitic.
Some of us mention this often. We point out tankies. We point out various issues.
usonian
(25,323 posts)Being a mostly, if not entirely religious state poses unique questions. Look at what happened to Tibet. Though that was seemingly a strategic land grab, a lot of atrocities were committed in its takeover.
But I see a larger issue here regarding the UN as its job being during peacetime to resolve disputes rather than in battle, for which it is unsuited, and of course, veto power renders it mostly useless.
Some things, as you say, are beyond tolerable behavior, and worth discussing in the sense that they change countries for long periods, such as here in the US, where we are still searching airline passengers over what was IMO (and others) an intelligence failure, and that sounds familiar.
I don’t engage in threads that are both-sided, for the same reason that I avoid magats.
Perhaps, you can convince the mods that both-siderism is unacceptable to you, and I’ll sign on to that. I am against what happened to civilians in WWII, and any time and place. Because they set the precedent, in Dresden and Japan and in all of Hitler’s land, for what we see today.
Got a petition? Or can you find the procedure, or just message the mods (I didn’t see it in “Ask the Administrators” page and don’t want to spam them.
Start a thread and let the admins know about it?
Count me in.
Any division here is a win for the real thugs who would destroy our own democracy.
IronLionZion
(51,268 posts)Plenty on the left including Jewish Americans sympathize with the Palestinians while condemning Hamas.
Earth-shine
(4,044 posts)I was born Jewish.
I have sympathy for all the innocents on both sides.
obamanut2012
(29,369 posts)This poster keeps accusing other posters, but no one has done what they are saying.
Celerity
(54,407 posts)
MorbidButterflyTat
(4,512 posts)Some people cannot see anything except what they want to see.
Marius25
(3,213 posts)But there's a lot of both sidesism, and "what about Israel's response, it's too much!"
IronLionZion
(51,268 posts)obamanut2012
(29,369 posts)That is a perfect analogy.
Act_of_Reparation
(9,116 posts)So many first found themselves here during the War on Terror, and now seem to be parroting the worst rhetoric of the Bush Administration... that finding fault in the prosecution of a war on terrorists means, ipso facto, one supports the terrorists.
IronLionZion
(51,268 posts)
redqueen
(115,186 posts)electric_blue68
(26,856 posts)I certainly marched against it in NYC & DC
yardwork
(69,364 posts)Is it fair to equate all Palestinians with the terrorist group Hamas?
If this is both-siderism then I own it.
Xavier Breath
(6,640 posts)A lot of what's been said here the past three days is disappointing, to say the least.
PatrickforB
(15,425 posts)terrorism just intended by people who don't think Israel should be allowed to exist. They should be eradicated.
But I sympathize with the Palestinians living in these enclosures, because they have material needs that are not being fulfilled. And now they have no water and no electricity. And yeah, Hamas are a bunch of murderous dirt bags, but what of these innocent families in Gaza and West Bank enclosures. Around 2 million Palestinians live in the enclosure in Gaza.
Plus, I think Netanyahu is a right-wing nut of the same ilk as ours. I think the people of Israel will turn on him after the crisis abates, and I do support our aid for Israel.
And speaking for myself, there are several on here who are saying things like they don't give a sh*t about the Palestinian cause any more because of the terrorist act by Hamas, but I simply object on humanitarian grounds for depriving innocent Palestinian families of basic material needs. Punishing all Palestinians for the act of Hamas is bad policy. I believe it will only create more long term hatred and more bloodshed.
housecat
(3,138 posts)housecat
(3,138 posts)simmering for decades. We are relying on soundbites and theories of everyone from Israeli soldiers to Palestinian families, from Middle East scholars to Middle East political figures. Who is to blame? Who has injured whom? It can't possibly be covered in a post, especially when emotion cannot be separated from fact, and facts cannot be separated from fiction.
We set out to discuss and make sense of an impossible situation, and we fail. We are a collection of anonymous DUers speaking to other anonymous DUers, plus some who have just crashed the party. Opinions are valuable, but swipes at each other have no value at all. I hope the pot stirrers can stop stirring long enough to listen and try not to allow a volatile subject turn any of us against each other. We have more in common than we know, and yet today we focus on differences. How can we expect many abused, persecuted, and proud people from different cultures to behave with civility, when a group of (primarily) educated Americans with very similar politics has some of its members shouting at each other when they write.
Amaryllis
(11,293 posts)
ShazzieB
(22,590 posts)I sincerely hope that expressing humanitarian concern for innocent Palestians is not seen as supporting Hamas, because it is NOT. I absolutely, categorically CONDEMN Hamas's actions and would condemn those actions no matter who was responsible. After watching quite a bit of news this weekend, I find myself condemning what Hamas has done more than ever.
I have always supported Israel's right to exist and always will. At the same time, I also have some very real concerns about certain Israeli government policies regarding the Palestinians, and I'm not comfortable pretending otherwise. If that is bothsiderism, I am guilty as charged, I guess. What can I say, my brain just has this annoying habit of insisting on seeing things in varying shades of gray instead of stark black and white. 
I do my best to express myself clearly, but I can't control how people interpret things. I've actually been posting very little in threads where these issues are being discussed, because 1) I don't agree with a lot of what is being said; 2) I don't want to hide what I really think, and 3) I don't want to contribute to any arguments, much less start any new ones. I guess I'd better continue to adere to that policy.
electric_blue68
(26,856 posts)ShazzieB
(22,590 posts)
Quixote1818
(31,155 posts)totodeinhere
(13,688 posts)committed by Hamas and concentrating only on criticizing Israel's reaction.
beaglelover
(4,466 posts)hlthe2b
(113,968 posts)or supporting Hamas or being anti-Semitic-- despite their every posted word stressing how horrified they are, how much sympathy they have for Israel/Israelis, and showing requisite anger toward the terrorist Hamas-- IF they likewise make the most innocuous comment showing concern for innocent Palestinian citizens. I can only believe that the turmoil, emotion, and resultant grief are causing you to have difficulty in this regard. For your own well-being, I hope you might take a break now and then and try to regain some perspective. DUers are not your enemy. In nearly all cases, this community is firmly in support of Israel. That does not extend to the indiscriminate extermination of innocent and trapped Palestinian citizens, rather than the targeted defeat/decimation of Hamas. If you find that level of concern for innocents a "both sides" argument rather than a basic tenet of humanity, then I would suggest a break is overdue for your own well-being.
Bev54
(13,431 posts)Marius25
(3,213 posts)more contentious subjects on it.
Just the horrific events committed by Hamas, the rally in Sydney chanting gas the Jews, the other global rallies celebrating and handing out candy. It's too much. Just tired of it all.
electric_blue68
(26,856 posts)electric_blue68
(26,856 posts)SunImp
(2,705 posts)Maru Kitteh
(31,759 posts)
wnylib
(26,013 posts)At this point in the US unity is essential among Dems.
Biden is solidly behind Israel. Our European allies are with us. The US and Europe have citizens who were killed or taken hostage, so it's personal for us, too.
Zeitghost
(4,557 posts)We have the literal equivalent of modern day Nazis who loudly proclaim their desire to complete what the holocaust started and some here want to blame both sides. It's unconscionable.
Just_Vote_Dem
(3,645 posts)When i was in college, I took a course that was World War II with emphasis on the Holocaust with films. We saw Patton and the Sorrow and the Pity, and one other documentary that haunts me to this day. It was the film that was made when the camps were liberated in 1945. Frontline released it in 1985 as Memory of the Camps, but I know I saw at least parts of this in class in the late '70's, as there were scenes there I will never forget and still occasionally have nightmares about it.
Please don't leave. Your voice and others that have been historically oppressed need to be heard.
Dorian Gray
(13,850 posts)until this morning bc I didn't want to get frustrated about all of this. But I've seen this play out in the media and in the real world, and you are right.
I think BASELINE here is the acknowledgment that what Hamas perpetrated against Israeli civilians was an evil act of retribution. Leftist academics and organizations claiming it is justified by previous Israeli action or under the guise of decolonization have HURT the Palestinian people and their cause on top of the hurt they are causing the Jewish people. How? The denial of the EVIL IN OUR FACES while equating the actions with ALL Palestinian peoples makes the rest of our society who witnessed the horrific actions against civilians close our hearts to the cause of the perpetrators.
I think bare minimum here is the ultimate eradication of Hamas as an organization. Hamas wants you to equate them with the Palestinian people. They are not one and the same.
angrychair
(12,284 posts)Which includes over a million children, are essentially being held in a penal colony as if they are criminals and Hamas are a gang of actual criminals that took over the penal colony 17 years ago and haven't held another election since.
Its easy to determine who is not in control of this situation and that is the majority of the Palestinian people. They are simply pawns in this whole thing
boston bean
(36,931 posts)moniss
(9,056 posts)parties.
boston bean
(36,931 posts)moniss
(9,056 posts), Jordan, Egypt, Iran, Iraq, Israel, Saudi Arabia etc. etc. Using the claims and issues of these people as bargaining chips for their own purposes.
boston bean
(36,931 posts)moniss
(9,056 posts)Because it applies to every entity.
boston bean
(36,931 posts)moniss
(9,056 posts)about where someone is reading into a post something that is not there.
boston bean
(36,931 posts)electric_blue68
(26,856 posts)(if I'd been awake enough to think/write cogently last night I'd have posted like 24 hrs earlier)
moniss
(9,056 posts)certainly be some nefarious motive I have since I didn't list all of the actors exactly as you wanted. If you had bothered to read back to the material I was first responding to you would see that someone was casting doubt as to whether the Palestinians are used as pawns. I said they were. Then the person asked me to name names. I did and since there are so many who use both the Palestinians and the Israelis as pawns I let the etc. etc. cover the remainder of the exhaustive list.
That you don't like it or think it is a bad look or had bad intentions means less than zero.
PatrickforB
(15,425 posts)Palestinians in these enclosures? And following this, who profits in political power from oppressing the Palestinian families with children living in Gaza?
It is always gonna be either about money or power.
Israel is a capitalist nation, and their security firms make quite a bit of money on product.
Netanyahu and other hard line politicians profit in power by ginning up fear and mistrust.
It is also possible Russian oil companies will benefit from the bump in price/bbl of oil.
That is just a few.
boston bean
(36,931 posts)Mosby
(19,491 posts)The whole Cui bono shtick.
PatrickforB
(15,425 posts)'Helter Skelter' that ends up in a war that gets rid of Israel completely.
All sorts of motivations.
I'm an older guy, so I'm mindful of the gang issues we were all fearful of in the early 90s, where so many drive-by shootings were happening. The gang members called innocent people they killed 'mushrooms' after the mushrooms on Super Mario Bros.
Seems like the issue with the Palestinians in Gaza is that same sort of collateral damage. It it such an innocuous term 'collateral damage' until you are in the group that is damaged. That's all.
Hamas sucks and needs to be eradicated. Israel does have the right to exist. But the Israeli corporations and political structure have no business oppressing 2 million people forced into close quarters in Gaza by withholding their basic material needs. Food, shelter, jobs, decent schools, healthcare, childcare, safety, access to transportation. These people have lived rather precariously for some time now.
So please don't do the 'very telling' thing with me because I am neither ignorant, nor am I some kind of fanatic. Hamas obviously wants to eradicate Israel. That is their payoff. They benefit from the oppressed Palestinians for purposes of recruitment of future soldiers in their jihad. But this was obvious and so I did not mention it. Again, Hamas needs to be smashed and Israel needs to continue existing. But there are two million people who are being used by Hamas as pawns, and in turn Hamas is being used as a pawn by larger groups, such as the theocratic regime in Iran and so on...
But again, these people now do not have electricity or water, and they have long languished in these enclosures. That is what needs to stop and that is what I have been saying all along.
electric_blue68
(26,856 posts)Perhaps he thought that was obvious enough and not needed to add it at every other post down thread
" 30. I am and have always been square in this boat. I hate what Hamas did because it is
terrorism just intended by people who don't think Israel should be allowed to exist. They should be eradicated.".
Zeitghost
(4,557 posts)Iran and Hamas benefit.
If Israel could peacefully exist with those who's stated goal is their destruction, they gladly would. They have been attacked from all sides and from within from the day they came into existance.
Progressive dog
(7,602 posts)and It's always about money and power? Pretty simplistic thinking. Is that all that motivates you?
PatrickforB
(15,425 posts)people have enough, they have a level playing field where working hard can actually get you ahead, and ideally, I'd like to see a world, and help build one, where justice does prevail.
What I work for every day of my life is to make the world a better place because I have lived.
Any problem with that? Really?
Just because I'm asking a pointed question about people not having enough to fill their material needs?
Gosh, I thought that is what Democrats stand for. You know - upholding the rights of workers, standing for better pay, better benefits, economic justice.
Again, punishing the 2 million Palestinians crammed into Gaza for what Hamas did is bad policy. It will merely create more lasting hatred, and that region has already had decades of it. Does compassion for children in harm's way ring a bell? Compassion for poor working schmucks just trying to make a living? NOT Hamas. No compassion for them. Please read that - I'm putting it in BOLD lest you miss my point.
But wouldn't it be better if everyone had things like a decent job that pays a living wage? Healthcare? Dental care? Good schools? A world where people's lives are held equal in importance to shareholder profits?
Will we ever get there? Not if we on here cannot even agree about whether Israel should utterly crush Hamas (they SHOULD and we should help them), or whether Israel should crush both Hamas (yes) and the rest of the two million Palestinians in Gaza (no).
Please - really? Don't you get that? That basic thing?
Progressive dog
(7,602 posts)A level playing field won't do that. So you would say that punishing the Germans and Japanese for what there leaders did was bad policy. I wish you would explain to me how we would have stopped them if we didn't punish those who made their actions possible. The people in the Gaza strip should be protected as far as possible but if destroying Hamas causes collateral damage,so be it. Hamas would not exist without the people in Gaza.
Abolishinist
(2,956 posts)what does "capitalism" have to do with any of this?
PatrickforB
(15,425 posts)analyzing the financial implications of the war - price of gas, price of goods, speculation on what the Fed and IMF will do, and how the military equipment manufacturers such as Lockheed can look for some big new orders.
This is where I always come from because I have been a practicing economist these last 16 years. There will indeed be economic ramifications of this whole thing, particularly of Hezbollah and others on the Israel borders take advantage of the confusion and attack.
Capitalism has everything to do with it. Whole swaths of people across the world live in grinding poverty. Here in the US we operate on the legal doctrine of shareholder primacy - the legal precedent is the 1919 MI Supreme Court ruling in favor of the Dodge brothers against Henry Ford. So when you hear someone talk about 'profits over people,' yep! That is how we roll.
This means that the ONLY fiduciary responsibility of the C-suite officers in any publicly traded company is to generate and grow shareholder profits. This is why most management is resistant to union organizers, and why they bust unions whenever they can. And on the floor, they may cut corners on safety, and even turn a blind eye to wage theft.
As to we consumers, it is common practice to downsize the package but continue charging the same price or even more. Ingredients or components will be cut as far as possible in quality to lower cost of sales. And, if the product maims or kills people (J&J talc), they will summon their MBAs to do cost-benefit-analysis and determine if it is better for shareholder profits to simply pay the claims from affected consumers or recall the product and fix the problem.
And finally, the environment. Wall Street has long sought to pass the costs of any cleanup or other malfeasance onto taxpayers while the company continues to pocket profits. The most egregious example of this was how a few Republican members of Congress actually apologized to BP over the Deepwater Horizon (talk about cutting corners on safety!) disaster when Obama and the Democrats charged the company $20 billion for the cleanup.
So yeah, as long as shareholder profits rule, we will continue to have what we have - predatory lending, big student loan debt, healthcare debt, and so on.
And many companies will in fact will see a big boost in contracts as this new war grinds on.
Now, Israel needs to defend itself, and they will need help. We need to help them, and Ukraine.
However, as an economist, I'm always mindful of poor working schmucks like us and how they fare in something like this. Israeli civilians are living in fear for their very lives right now, because they have no time when those sirens go off to seek shelter. They are dying. Their children are dying. Their parents are dying. There's massive property destruction and they will have to rebuild.
Same with the Palestinians (the majority who had nothing to do with this). They are suffering, and will suffer prodigiously throughout this whole thing, as the Hamas terrorists are hunted down and killed.
Nobody really wins, Ab, but business definitely will go on.
Blindness of rage can do a lot of damage and that's part of the desired effect.
Boomerproud
(9,292 posts)That was the final straw for me. I'm glad you brought the subject up.
CloudWatcher
(2,127 posts)From what I can tell, extremely few humans live up to the ideals of humanity. It's an interesting word.
sinkingfeeling
(57,835 posts)of the hostility.
AnnaLee
(1,392 posts)At the end of the day, it really doesn't matter what I think, does it?
stage left
(3,306 posts)Lunabell
(7,309 posts)That's the crux of it. Both sides are right and both sides are wrong, but the war machine doesn't care as long as both sides keep filling their coffers.
Mysterian
(6,485 posts)It was a heinous terrorist attack on non-combatants.
"War" connotes conflict between military forces, not brutal attacks on civilians.
Jay25
(437 posts)I guess it depends on what side of the spectrum you view things from. We must not forget that Palestinian's were forced from their homes from outside forces for something that they were not part of. I am in no way trying to minimize what happened to these Israeli citizens, but I also cannot minimize the atrocities inflicted over decades, upon the Palestinian people and their land from the Israeli government.
wnylib
(26,013 posts)Palestinian civilians were making terrorist attacks on Israel, with help from surrounding nations. That's how they ended up being cordoned off, for Israel's protection from constant, random terrorist attacks.
There have always been Jews in Palestine, going back to ancient Israel. Even after the Roman destruction of Jerusalem in 70 CE, Jews continued living there in Palestine. Even after Constantine made Christianity the official religion of the Roman Empire and Christians persecuted the Jews in "the Holy Land" (Palestine), Jews continued living there. During the Middle Ages in Europe, when Jews were exiled from European countries, many of them went to Palestine and were welcomed, even invited to settle there, by the Muslim rulers. Over the centuries, there were Jews who fled pogroms in Europe by settling in Palestine. Quite a few were Russian Jews, which is hinted at in Fiddler on the Roof. When Jews are exiled from their village and are leaving, Yenta tells Golda that she is going to Palestine.
So Jews are not just some foreign settlers who suddenly appeared on the scene in modern times. A large number arrived after the European Holocaust, which convinced them that they needed their own country.
Palestinians fought the Israelis from the moment that Israel was established. Actually, before then, when it was being discussed. That is how Palestinians left the land inside Israel's borders. They continued to make terrorist attacks on Israeli civilians and vowed to destroy Israel.
Palestinians had an opportunity to establish their own separate state in Palestine, with support from several other nations. The UN recommended it. But they refused and chose to make perpetual warfare on Israel with the vow to destroy Israel and its people.
Terrorist organizations from outside Palestine backed the Palestinians. That is why Palestinians today have known nothing but warfare. The same is true for Israelis, BTW.
Jay25
(437 posts)which convinced them that they needed their own country."
You admitted that they were initially welcomed in Palestine and as more came that "they needed their own country", which is probably why there has been such a drastic change in the Israel/Palestine map from 1946 until now.
As I stated before, 'I guess it depends on what side of the spectrum you view things from'. Those that have been forcefully displaced, will have a different view than those that forcefully occupy and are in control of a minority's resources (electricity, food, water, land, etc.).
I do not support terrorism of any kind but neither do I support oppression. The only losers are the innocent Palestinian's and innocent Israeli's.
KentuckyWoman
(7,401 posts)There are plenty of atrocities to go around.
I don't like or approve of what Hamas is doing. Meeting injustice with violence is what humans tend to do but it does not work.
Catapulting the injustices and atrocities of Israel to the world is a better option. Get the great powers of the planet on your side demanding change and justice. It is proven to work over and over.
Now Hamas is as bad or worse in the world eyes. It will not serve them well.
peppertree
(23,343 posts)Trump's leaking (perhaps selling) of Top Secret Intel almost certainly gave Hamas what they needed to disactivate the Gaza security perimeter.
This is one of the most computerized and sophisticated barriers on earth - such that's there's no way they could've pulled that off (and undetected!) without serious Intel.
Without that massive breach, the Hamas assault would've been limited - if it could happen at all.
stopdiggin
(15,463 posts)----- 
--------
womanofthehills
(10,988 posts)What’s with that? A border with no soldiers protecting it. Seems like the border protection soldiers were sent to West Bank where there was unrest. It took 6 to 10 hours for Israel’s troops to get to the Gaza border. I would think they would be able to fly troops in within an hour at minimum.
Israel was warned by Egypt that something big was about to happen and Israel ignored this warning. Much as we hate Trump - just saying everything is his fault prevents people from looking at facts. There are security cameras all along the fence - were they not working?? A former Gaza security guard said alarms would go off if a cat climbed on the fence but Humas was able to bulldoze the fence down. It’s all so weird for a country who is supposed to be an expert in intelligence and security.
peppertree
(23,343 posts)Bibi's definitely no paragon of competency, pluralism, or ethics.
He was practically fist-pumping during his "we're at war" announcement.
TeamProg
(6,630 posts)I am unaware of any.
Thank you.
former9thward
(33,424 posts)Impossible to offer anything when no one is on the other side of the table. The UN offered a two state solution in 1948. The Arabs and the Palestinians rejected it. And when U.S. presidents from then on have offered it they have always rejected it.
questionseverything
(11,840 posts)He said it was Israel who wouldn’t accept the deal
former9thward
(33,424 posts)But his position on Israel has been correctly criticized. His book Palestine: Peace Not Apartheid which was written in 2006 has been attacked for its slant toward Palestinians and its full of inaccuracies. Fourteen members of the Carter Center Board resigned because of the book.
Ken Stein who was in meetings with him when he met Syria's Assad (father of the current Assad) said the book is inaccurate. Carter made Assad look reasonable and good in the book. He was neither.
Cater included this sentence on page 213 of the original edition of the book:
Palestinians and Arabs in general should end suicide bombings and other acts of terrorism, when international laws and the ultimate goals of the roadmap are accepted by Israel.
Due to outcry the sentence was withdrawn in later editions.
So I do not accept President Carter's views on this subject.
questionseverything
(11,840 posts)Over a nameless , faceless internet poster any day
former9thward
(33,424 posts)But why did you ask the question since you have stated you do not want an answer? Because I brought up facts? Thought so...
Mossfern
(4,716 posts)BlueCheeseAgain
(1,983 posts)TeamProg
(6,630 posts)WTF?
mcar
(46,056 posts)Israel’s right to exist first.
TeamProg
(6,630 posts)MOMFUDSKI
(7,080 posts)the defense contractors are salivating. Iran must want war badly to allow these kinds of atrocities. Let’s be kind to each other at this time. We all have our own thoughts and they are all valid for now. Thanks
moniss
(9,056 posts)to be restrained and factual. I agree that some do not wish to be civil towards their fellow DU members on these subjects. I've been on the receiving end of some amount of vitriol over the years especially regarding Middle East issues but also about other matters and at one time it lead me to not contribute content here for several years. I'm not saying my silence was a loss for anyone but I mention it because I was certainly not alone in refraining from posting and some of those posts from those folks may have been quite informative and timely in helping people to understand this or that matter.
Thank you for posting this.
Martin68
(27,749 posts)continuing unrelentingly in a tit for tat since 1948. We need to accept the humanity of the people on both sides and help them find a solution. Netanyahu's abandonment of the two-state solution has derailed decades of work. People can't live helplessly in a pressure cooker without something exploding. When the smoke clears we will be left with people on both sides suffering and angry.We must find a way through to a solution that is fair to both sides.
yonder
(10,293 posts)A day or so ago another DU'er said something like “Sometimes I just want to jump off this planet”. I don’t think they meant it literally as in a permanent way but more in a general sense — that there is enough strife, pain and ugliness outside of this board to try and deal with, without bringing it here. That person is not the only one finding themself wanting to disengage and bail out, both here and elsewhere.
Yes, all wars are brutal, ugly and inhumane. Violence, incivilty and negativity only sow the same harvest and yes, Cyrano, we are better than this.
maxsolomon
(38,727 posts)I can't discuss Hamas' atrocities without having Israel's Apartheid policies thrown back at me immediately by my stepdaughter or having my wife make the "blowback" observation she's made about every conflict since 9/11.
Israelis are not this Israeli Govt's policies, and Palestinians are not Hamas.
TNNurse
(7,541 posts)My thought is like yours, the people are not their government. Enough elected them, but as we know, we are not responsible for Trump and the GOP. We just are not.
Am I horrified by what is going on now? Yes. Have I been horrified about what the Palestinians have endured for years? Yes.
Biophilic
(6,552 posts)This tread, in answer to your post, seems an excellent example of exactly what you were saying. Mostly I’ve stopped reading treads since so much of what is being said is angry and self righteous. The world, right now, is a mess. I don’t need to see more anger and self righteousness. That’s not going to help anyone or anything. Sigh.
sybylla
(8,655 posts)the last Obama election in 2012.
It's all quite disappointing, but not surprising.
Kennah
(14,578 posts)
Jedi Guy
(3,477 posts)
hunter
(40,690 posts)... here on DU and in our national press, no matter the level of atrocity.
What makes this one different?
Quixote1818
(31,155 posts)when there is a current event. I stay out of taking sides as it's fruitless. I think there are good and bad on both sides. It's not cut and dry, it's not black and white and too many people all over the world see it as black and white.
cab67
(3,749 posts)I wrote a post (which I've since removed) arguing that a nuanced view of this situation doesn't necessarily reflect antisemitism.
I happen to support Israel in this case - the attack by Hamas was unprovoked - but I think some of the actions taken by Israel are unwise. In particular, I think it's not good strategy to cut off power to Gaza. Actions that target civilians rarely have the intended effect.
I posted my comment because I've been accused of being antisemitic or anti-Israeli for having criticized some of Israel's policies. For example, I think the expansion of West Bank Jewish settlements is acting against the cause of peace - it's provocative. I oppose it not mostly because I want to see peace in the region, and the settlements act against that cause. It's an expression of Realpolitik, not bigotry. I take exception to such accusations.
But I was basically accused of pearl-clutching, 'gentile-splaining,' and being anti-Israeli. None of which was the case. I wasn't making myself into some sort of victim - I was merely reacting to past accusations (not all of which were on DU) I found offensive. Some of the responses came very close to accusing me of being antisemitic. I got tired of being consistently misunderstood, so I self-deleted it.
Simultaneously, I'm also seeing a lot of us laying the blame entirely on Israel. This, too, is unfair. Hamas' tactics are intended to sacrifice as many Palestinian civilians as possible, and their attacks are deliberately directed toward non-military targets. Hamas is not the good guy here. Whether we agree with specific aspects of Israel's reaction, reaction as a whole is clearly justified, and Hamas must be taken down.
What's going down in Gaza and Israel is bad. A lot of innocent people are being killed. Hamas is acting horrifically by attacking civilian targets and using human shields in their own defense. Meanwhile, I think some of Israel's retaliatory acts may increase support for Hamas among Palestinian civilians. Nothing going on over there can be described as "civil." But it doesn't follow that we should be going after each other.
We all agree on one point - there must be peace in the region. I have no idea how that will be achieved. I suspect most of us feel that way (though I could be wrong.)
MustLoveBeagles
(16,406 posts)Aussie105
(7,920 posts)Hardliners on both sides make a lasting solution impossible.
They want the impossible. And compromising isn't on the table.
Is Israel turning Gaza into a version of the WW2 Warsaw ghettos over the years wrong? Definitely!
Is Hammas wrong in their past and current attacks on civilians? Definitely!
There is no 'good guy/bad guy' situation here. But plenty to generate extremist thinking and action on both sides.
I'm just hoping America doesn't respond with sending guns & ammo to 'help' one side, as the other side has their supporters too who will do the same.
We already have mini WW3 in Ukraine, we don't want another in the Middle East.
Quixote1818
(31,155 posts)Hekate
(100,133 posts)I have been staying away from cable news with their relentless obsessions. But I have been finding no respite here.
Beastly Boy
(13,283 posts)I hope you understand: I don't objecr to reaching common ground, but it takes second place to maintaining my integrity.
Civility is a positive value and deserves to be cultivated. But not in 100% of all cases. Not in the face of pure evil. I choose to be hostile. Because I am very much offended by pure evil being normalized. If I don't make this choice, not only my integrity, but my life may quite literally be jeopardized.
And I have nowhere to run or hide: the world had become too small for that.
jgmiller
(688 posts)Why is it not possible for the same person to sympathize with Palestinians who are not part of Hamas, who just want to live their lives in peace and safety AND also sympathize with Israeli's who want the same thing and at the same time condemn Hamas and understand that Israel has a right to eradicate them to ensure the the safety of their citizens?
It's like saying all Japanese in WW2 were evil or all Germans were, we can't keep having these absolutes or nothing will ever change.
Firestorm49
(4,548 posts)The situation in the Middle East is a mess. You can’t expect all of us to take one side. The bitterness is regrettable but it’s a blog site and to that end, you get the whole gamut of opinions, anger and frustration.
I agree with you in that the vitriol isn’t needed on a site that promotes our values, but that’s just how people are and until the rules only allow us to talk about bunnies, this is what we get.
obamanut2012
(29,369 posts)
Haggard Celine
(17,821 posts)There are going to be differences among us, which is fine. DUers come here to discuss things, and the ongoing debate over Israel and Palestine is one of the world's most controversial subjects. We can disagree around here as long as we don't insult each other and get ugly. We can show respect to people who have contrary ideas. I'm staying out of this shit for now. Don't feel much like arguing today.
H2O Man
(79,051 posts)Kaleva
(40,365 posts)From the SOP:
"Discuss politics, issues, and current events. Posts about Israel/Palestine, religion, guns, showbiz, or sports are restricted in this forum."
brooklynite
(96,882 posts)Kaleva
(40,365 posts)It would take over GD if allowed.
Same with guns.
tdot_steel
(7 posts)Unfortunately, there is little humanity left and people are unable to take a step back to take a wholistic view of things.
I do not follow Middle East politics regularly, however, I am aware of the conflicts and some of the history. One thing which has continuously bothered me is one-sided coverage of the war between the two factions. The media rarely reports when Israel is the initiator of the conflict. Which is disingenuous in brokering peace in the region. Both sides have valid issues to be resolved. Yet, most media reports are pro-Israel which exacerbates the dispute.
What Hamas did is horrendous. We consistently hear about Hamas, Hezbollah and the P.L.O. and the atrocities committed by these organizations. Little is ever mentioned of the state-sponsored acts by Mossad and other Israeli groups which "protect" the Zionist movement.
Just my opinion as a casual observer.
yardwork
(69,364 posts)I've never felt this way before. Does anyone else feel this way?
yonder
(10,293 posts)Unfortunately, this DU Oasis of ours seems to have sucked up more of the strident world about it than I've noticed before. I've visited this thread more than once today only to come away feeling even more disengaged.
On a much larger stage, mankind's unabated thirst for war against other people/nations is taking its own toll for too many of us while the biggest challenge of all, recognizing the shortsighted, greed induced war against our only planetary home goes largely unfought.
Overwhelmed and approaching resignation, yes.
totodeinhere
(13,688 posts)by Hamas? And whom do you blame? In case anyone cares my what position is I blame the terrorists who pulled the trigger.
ForgedCrank
(3,096 posts)making my position known and the reasons for it, but I don't attack people. But, I most often post a contrary opinion because "I agree" posts are mostly just wasted space in my opinion.
I only wish many would do the same, I get very aggressive responses from a lot of people here on many subjects.
I don't expect I'm going to change anyones mind on any particular subject, I just like to lay things out for the purpose of sparking thought when I can. This current situation in Israel is no different. From my perspective, past events in this area are irrelevant in this moment, this attack was pure evil with no other intent than to shock the world and stoke the fires of division.
I try to keep reminding myself that this is a very difficult situation that has a lot of history, and people are very upset over the brutal and evil attacks. I am among those.
Many of us can't offer solutions, we just know that we are very upset. It would be nice to be able to vent and express that among friends who understand. I'm not a foreign policy expert, I'm just some average guy with an internet connection. This incident in Israel has us all upside-down, and it's especially tough because as an unknown average Joe, there's nothing I can do about any of it. It's a very emotional thing for us all.
Skittles
(171,710 posts)always have
roamer65
(37,953 posts)I have definitely used it recently.
Duncan Grant
(8,920 posts)DU is better with ignore (aka: boundaries).
ecstatic
(35,075 posts)so I haven't said much, but I will say that if any group is being treated unfairly or inhumanely, that needs to stop. There is no such thing as peace when you have atrocities regularly occurring within a vicinity. Common sense tells you that its only a matter of time before things boil over. That logic isn't just for the Middle East, it applies right here at home too. Its something rethugs will never understand--if you're hell bent on holding back or stomping on the rights and options of people who don't look like you, eventually we'll all be fucked in the end. We see that coming to fruition now--our country is slowly unraveling. Hundreds of vacant posts, no House Speaker, etc... and this is all because rethugs would rather "own the libs" and/or have an incompetent racist like trump in office than to see immigration reform, or women's rights, or affirmative action etc.
I just think it's so unfortunate that we're seeing this type of thing in 2023. My perspective is from being a member of a group that has been and continues to be persecuted in this country.
NowISeetheLight
(4,002 posts)Hamas had 17 years to work to become civilized, negotiate with Israel, allow elections, and NOT LAUNCH CONSTANT ROCKET ATTACKS. Instead they just continued terrorist behavior. Hamas won elections 17 years ago. That’s plenty of time to get it right.
The fact they never really tried proves their only goal is the elimination of the Jewish people. There is no other explanation.
Sure, you can accuse Israel of apartheid. But it’s very different from situations like South Africa. In the Israeli situation the blockage of Gaza was to prevent the rise of Hamas. It was pure defense. I see no problem with that.
The fact other Islamic countries are NOT offering refuge to the Palestinians indicates to me this isn’t about people at all. It’s about extermination. If a few hundred thousand Palestinian civilians are killed, well that’s fine to accomplish the goal. The goal is the elimination of Israel.
Xolodno
(7,350 posts)As there is short sightless, someone trying to get a promotion by telling a leader what they want to hear, hubris, etc.
This war in Israel was preventable. The war in Ukraine was preventable. The civil war in Yemen was preventable. And so on, WW1 was preventable, but no one in Europe could see beyond their nose, had they, WW2 would not have happened. But activities designed to punish a foreign society only radicalizes them and makes the situation worse, and they have no control of what happens (another reason sanctions fail, but that's a different argument). The brutal regime in Iran survives because we give them the perfect excuse as to why they need to stay in power.
These things just don't happen because political leaders wake up one day and decide "I got nothing better to do, so lets start a war". It's years, sometimes several decades of bad simmering issues no one addresses, and one day, a spark ignites everything (the Russian Revolution started because of a bread riot, turns out there was plenty of bread, but two nobles were arguing over how much of a cut of profits they get and didn't allow much to be sold). And yet, everyone wants to blame things on the recent history of a few days or months. Despite people warning a decade or several decades ago, this was going to happen eventually.
It doesn't excuse Hamas, nor does is excuse Bibi whose policies for 15 years probably brought this to the forefront. Unfortunately, innocent people pay the price. The music festival revelers, the Gaza father or mother just trying to make a living, etc.
But we get propagandized with reports of atrocities committed by the brainwashed. And we, as a flaw of our humanity, suddenly paint the opposing side with a broad brush. Because its easy to give into hate and anger. If anything, many not "institutionalized" in Gaza would have loved to be at the music festival and probably couldn't care less about various politics. Remember, the Palestinian Authority opened casino's on Gaza's beaches that catered to Israeli's. The Hamas violent takeover ended that and Bibi liked keeping Hamas in power so he could say he didn't have a negotiating partner when it came to the two state solution. Now, its not surprisingly come back to bite him. Just like we overthrew a more secular Iran for an authoritarian who would do our bidding, didn't see the long term consequences.
And yes, there are some here on DU who have a blood lust or enjoy war mongering. Might get my post hidden for saying that. And many times I've wanted to leave. But think its important to keep a pulse on things.
betsuni
(29,078 posts)
jfz9580m
(17,188 posts)Sorry I am not being flippant -it is a serious topic etc. But well it is just having read posts here since 2005 or something, I would be worried the forum was dying if it was any other way..
Dysfunctional human online communities.
The other day I read about this rift in TST-I was sorry to see that..I like those guys. But otoh from afar it is pretty much every lefty or human group ever.
Passions cool down and things carry on..
The toll in the real world is a different matter :-/...No easy fixes for those outside or often even in the realm of politics...
housecat
(3,138 posts)Correct me if I am wrong, but DUers can't possibly fully understand a surprise attack that has been simmering for decades. We are relying on soundbites and theories of everyone from Israeli soldiers to Palestinian families, from Middle East scholars to Middle East political figures. Who is to blame? Who has injured whom? It can't possibly be covered in a post, especially when emotion cannot be separated from fact, and facts cannot be separated from fiction.
We at DU discuss and try to make sense of an impossible situation, and we fail. We are a collection of anonymous DUers speaking to other anoynmous DUers, plus some who have just crashed the party. Opinions are valuable, but swipes at each other have no value at all. I hope the pot stirrers can stop stirring long enough to listen and try not to allow a volatile subject turn any of us against each other. We have more in common than we know, and yet today we focus on differences. How can we expect many abused, persecuted, and proud people from different cultures to behave with civility, when a group of (primarily) educated Americans with very similar politics has some of its members shouting at each other when they write.
Response to Cyrano (Original post)
housecat This message was self-deleted by its author.
SouthernDem4ever
(6,619 posts)their kids to dehumanize other human beings. The atrocities they are committing should not be something anyone could stomach if they were normal.
anamnua
(1,510 posts)it was only stable when an external power was in charge and could keep a lid on things: the Ottoman Turks and later the British. Need for a UN mandate?
