Israel hospitals instructed not to treat captured Hamas who have piled up in the public hospital sy

[Demovictory9]

https://m.jpost.com/breaking-news/article-767787



Health Minister Moshe Arbel issued a directive to the public health system in Israel to refuse to treat captured terrorists on Wednesday afternoon.

"Since the beginning of the fighting, the issue of treating the damned and despicable Hamas terrorists within the public hospitals has piled up a tremendous difficulty on the health system," wrote Arbel.



"In these difficult times, the health system should focus fully on the treatment of the victims of the criminal massacre, the IDF soldiers and preparedness for the next," added the health minister. "The task of securing and treating the cursed and despicable terrorists within the public health system significantly harms these efforts and therefore, under my guidance, the public health system will not treat them."

"The handling of the matter should be entrusted to the IDF or the Shin Bet, and of course the Health Ministry is ready and willing to assist these bodies, as needed."



Arbel called on Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu to instruct the relevant bodies to act accordingly.

[JohnSJ]

1. If the past is any reflection of the current situation, the Israeli physicians will not do that.

[hlthe2b]

13. I tend to agree, but they must not be put in this position.

[JohnSJ]

15. you're right

[Oneironaut]

2. That's medically unethical.

Not that Hamas would treat theirs, but, they have an obligation to save wounded patients regardless of where they’re from or what they did.

[BannonsLiver]

18. Yeah. Thing is, it's a real shooting war not a MASH episode

[hlthe2b]

25. No. it is not "if you feel like it" but international convention to which Israel has been signatory

since 1951. The Geneva Conventions--whether all combatants from all nations followed them or not was a life saver for many an American (and others) in WWII, Korea, and Vietnam. Many of us might not be here if our grandfathers/great-grandfathers were left to die untreated by the enemy--even if some refused to provide that care.

Not to mention that disregard of these conventions as a signatory could constitute war crimes.

Not a "MASH episode" but an international convention that means something. Disregarding puts all the military of our own and our allies at tremendous risk.

Such a flippant attitude toward GC really upsets me and I can assure you every other medical professional (and general military members) who has been subject to and adhered to them.

[Chainfire]

24. The rules of war require that prisoners be treated.

Even the Germans treated American POWs to the best to their ability and resources.

[hlthe2b]

3. I can understand prioritizing injured Israelis over enemy combatants (although that violates medical

ethics--at least in the US)...

But, to not treat them at all is a violation of the Geneva Conventions and Israel HAS declared war formally against Hamas:

If a military doctor encountered an injured enemy soldier, they had a duty under the Geneva Convention to render medical assistance if it was requested and feasible. The Geneva Convention, which took shape at the end of World War II, established the principles of humanitarian and health assistance in times of war.Mar 25, 2022

I think that that reference to "feasibility" does give some wiggle room for prioritizing Israeli patients, but total denial of care?


That would be a serious violation for US military doctors. Emotions are running high for good reason, but even domestic US doctors --especially those who treat trauma or drug overdoses--encounter this ethical dilemma--albeit with accused criminals, not enemy soldiers.

I appreciate the intensity of feelings and can readily put myself in the shoes of Israeli medical providers(and governmental officials), but I can't say this does not leave me concerned with respect to global precedence. And yes, I'd agree that the monstrous acts thus far of Hamas signal they would surely not reciprocate with any adherence to the GC, but we've certainly encountered that before in Iraq, Afghanistan, and even against some enemies in WWII , Korea, and Vietnam. At the same time adherence--where it existed-- has protected American lives. I'm not comfortable and cannot condone seeing this totally abandoned if care CAN be provided.


And lest anyone claim Israel has no obligations to the Geneva Conventions, it is, indeed a signatory:
Israel ratified the Geneva Conventions on July 6, 1951.

[Mosby]

5. There are hospitals in Gaza.

Also in Egypt and Jordan.

[hlthe2b]

7. Hospitals in Gaza with no power soon but regardless, this refers to combatants in ISRAEL

[Mosby]

9. Israel should create POW camps then

With health care facilities.

[hlthe2b]

10. The issue is treating versus not treating. Israel has an obligation to treat.

[Aristus]

14. The rights extended to prisoners of war do not cover terrorists.

n/t

[hlthe2b]

16. Not true. And in fact, Israel has declared war against Hamas so that does make them

fall under the auspices of the Geneva Conventions.

I get the emotion but this discussion is wrong. No one is saying to prioritize the enemy combatants over Israeli injured. But the refusal of care is an overt violation of GC, for which Israeli has been a signatory since 1951.

[Aristus]

17. All right. Thanks!

I know very little about international law as it applies to warfare. Now I guess I know less than I thought.

[orleans]

4. so treat the enemy so they can turn around and kill you?

that's the hamas charter, right?

would putting a band-aid on them suffice or pass as treatment?

[hlthe2b]

8. No. That is the Geneva Conventions of which Israel is a signatory

https://www.icrc.org/en/war-and-law/treaties-customary-law/geneva-conventions

Israel ratified the Geneva Conventions on July 6, 1951.

[markpkessinger]

19. Both ethics and international treaties can be inconvenient sometimes n/t

[obamanut2012]

22. Is Israel a sovereign nation or not?

They are, right? They signed the Geneva Convention and have declared war against Hamas. They MUST treat captured enemy combatants.

[DetroitLegalBeagle]

31. Who's going to force them?

Nobody. The GC are typically enforced by the strongest military power in the conflict. Which means the strongest can typically follow the GC as they see fit. Israel has nukes. Nobody is invading them to enforce or punish them, just like no country is going go in and try to arrest Netanyahu for war crimes. Economic sanctions is about as much as you'll get.

[hlthe2b]

36. Kindly read my limited history/significance of GC upstream. It is not something to be flippant about

Post #25.

As I point out, many of us would not be here but for our grandfathers/great-grandfathers and for some, fathers having survived with even the most minimal care afforded as POWs in WWII, Korea, and Vietnam.

Who is going to "force" Israel? That ( "force" ) is a term to be used for renegade nations, not one that has been part of the International community and a signatory to the Geneva Conventions since 1951. They will need their International allies and the continued support of their closest allies. That isn't force, but that can be quite an effective influence--just as with the US working behind the scenes to find an evacuation mechanism/route for Palestinian civilians through Egypt and asserting their stance against shutting off of food and water (and power to hospitals) without doing so.

And as DFW points out in post#26, it can carry incredible benefits to the future of Israel and the potential for any peaceful coexistence in the future--long after a decimated Hamas (hopefully) recedes into the dustbin of history and is no longer a factor.

[irisblue]

6. That is not right. It goes against the Physicians Oath.

[obamanut2012]

21. And teh Geneva Convention

[Arazi]

11. They should NOT be in the same hospitals as Israelis

They need to be in a separate camp that’s guarded and away from civilians.

Treat them but not amongst the very people they’ve just attempted to hunt, maim and kill

[hlthe2b]

12. Not the issue. Israeli government is telling physicians they are not to treat..

Yes, alternative field hospitals could be established but the issue is to treat or not to treat. Israel is obligated as a signatory to the Geneva Conventions to treat. (Israel ratified the Geneva Conventions on July 6, 1951).

[obamanut2012]

20. This is against the Geneva Convention

Israel has declared war against Hamas, so the GC should legally be in place.

Would Hamas treat Israeli soldiers? Extremely doubtful, but they are not a sovereign nation, and Israel is, as is also a signatory of the Geneva Convention.

You cannot denounce atrocities while you are causing them. And trust me, I am including the US Government in that.

[sarisataka]

23. Obeying this instruction would be wrong.

Just as in World War 2, we treated wounded Nazis and Japanese, you show humanity even to the inhumane.

[The Magistrate]

27. It's Interesting, Sir

What he actually says is that treatment of wounded prisoners (a Hamas man in an Israeli hospital may be presumed in custody) is the responsibility of the army and police. In following the link, just below the main story is a note that a wounded Hamas fighter was not treated in the hospital emergency room, but sent on to a prison service clinic. It doesn't have quite the same ring, however much some enjoy imagining great piles of wounded Hamas types groaning on the pavement outside a hospital, bleeding their lives away while heartless Israelis point and laugh walking by. I would be curious, myself, just how many wounded Hamas types fetch up in an Israeli civilian hospital nowadays in any case. I doubt many who were wounded on Israeli territory made it to a hospital.

[sarisataka]

28. I do question the "overwhelming" part

As I wouldn't expect many wounded survivors. Fanatics tend to make sure they are not captured and heated soldiers tend to make sure an enemy is "down" before moving to apprehend them.

"Wounds" also cover the gamut from a sprain to most of the insides are outsidw. A wounded person may not need a hospital yet be adequately tended to.

Still an order to ignore wounded enemies and not treat them is an illegal order and should be disobeyed.

[The Magistrate]

29. I Agree It's A Wrongheaded Directive, Sir

I expect a lot of Israeli politicos are going to be striking tough guy postures. Netanyahu's coalition put some serious nut-jobs in ministerial positions.

The matter illustrates one problem, already appearing in commentary. A number of people, confronted with the fact that armed forces of the side they support have committed atrocity of the sort they are used to vigorously condemning in other contexts, find it hard to look the thing square in the face, and so seek refuge in imaginary atrocities. Which, being un-tethered to anything but the promoter's need to look away from horror committed to advance a cause they themselves support, can quickly inflate to magnificent proportions. Thus we are treated to claims Israel will kill hundreds of thousands of Palestinian children, and similar nonesense. It's not just our media commenting on politics here which displays a desperate need to put events through a 'both sides' filter....

[DetroitLegalBeagle]

39. From my experience in Iraq

When fighting fanatics, ones actively trying to surrender got held at gunpoint, disarmed and checked for bombs. Any sudden movements and they got lit up. Due to so many instances of hidden grenades, suicide vests, or other trickery, down and out insurgents either got hot muzzle strike to see if they react, or if there isn't time to check( like during an active fight/ambush or on your way to the objective) another round to the head or double tap and move on. Real life firefights aren't like the movies. If they were not actively trying to surrender or are obviously incapable of fighting, then they were an legitimate target.

[sarisataka]

40. Been there, done that

Have the T-shirt to prove it

[DetroitLegalBeagle]

41. I have love/hate thing with mine lol

Miss the Army, hated being in Iraq, absolutely love those I was with though. Could have done with a tad less violence and the related aches, pains, and tinnitus.

[DFW]

26. A very unfortunate order to give

I'm not saying the Hamas guys need to be given priority single rooms with flowers and cable TV. Have them visited by Arabic-speaking psychologists, engaging them with "for the love of Allah, what were you thinking?"

But treat them if it is at all feasible. Let them return home saying how well the Israelis treated them, despite what they did, and let their people back home get a different image of the Israelis than what their propagandists are telling them. It has to start somewhere, and the people of Gaza sure aren't going to hear it from the Hamas leadership.

[obamanut2012]

30. That happened here in the US with POW camps during WWII

And in the UK. Many Nazi soldiers stayed here and over there and married local women and raised families as good, non-Nazi Americans.

It is a good idea. Many Arabs live in Israel.

[DFW]

35. Just my point, thanks!

My father-in-law was drafted off his farm at age 17 in 1941, sent to Stalingrad at age 42, returned minus a leg in 1943. He was treated very well by the Russian and Ukrainian people in the MASH units that successfully stopped the gangrene that was slowly killing him. He was from so far out in the boondocks, his native language wasn't even German. He couldn't do farm work any more, obviously, so he studied to be a rural banker, and worked at a bank that helped out farmers with loans to keep their farms running. At his funeral, there were over 400 people, just about none of whom I recognized. Mostly local farmers whom he had helped stay solvent over the years.

Never a fan of the Nazis as a teenager, he obviously was less so when he returned home. Even over 30 years later, when I first met him, I remember his face growing cold and silent, his jaw rippling in silent rage whenever Hitler's face was shown in TV documentaries. A fervent anti-militarist, his greatest wish was that all his grandchildren be girls, so that they would never be submitted to compulsory military service. It turned out to be a wish that fate was to grant him. He did marry a local girl, but his daughter, also a product of the flat farm country of the northwest, had the questionable judgment to marry me. At our wedding, her dad and mine, who wore "enemy" uniforms during the war, got along just fine, although my dad spoke no German, and he spoke little English. It sure as hell beat a scenario with both of them growing up hating the other for the rest of their lives.

[Alexander Of Assyria]

32. So...a request??...not an order, not an instruction....?? Also against doctors oath...

Also contrary to international law and such stuff no one cares about much….Misleading is…happening a lot and too many don’t see to care!?

But there’s a good old fashioned siege of a city to be done so all bets and morality is off!!

[AntivaxHunters]

33. I know! Send them to America!

They'll never get care then. Texas & Florida specifically.
(See what I did there?)

[Elessar Zappa]

37. I can them putting Israelis first in line but

they shouldn’t outright refuse to treat Hamas terrorists. Just treat them and when they’re well enough, throw them in prison.

[Bayard]

38. No Hippocratic Oath there?