Collective Punishment is a war crime (Red Cross)

[TomDaisy]

Collective Punishments

The term refers not only to criminal punishment, but also to other types of sanctions, harassment or administrative action taken against a group in retaliation for an act committed by an individual/s who are considered to form part of the group. Such punishment therefore targets persons who bear no responsibility for having committed the conduct in question. Historically used as a deterrence tool by occupying powers to prevent attacks from resistance movements, collective punishments for acts committed by individuals during an armed conflict are prohibited by IHL against prisoners of war or other protected persons.

International humanitarian law prohibits collective punishment of prisoners of war or other protected persons for acts committed by individuals during an armed conflict.

The imposition of collective punishment is a war crime.

https://casebook.icrc.org/a_to_z/glossary/collective-punishments

[TheProle]

1. Yeah why don't those Israelis just

Sit down and shut up and wait to be butchered.

Also a war crime: headquartering soldiers in hospitals/schools and using ambulances as troop transport.

Also genocide.

They’re across the Rubicon now. Survival is at stake.

[marybourg]

4. Or they can just kill all the uniformed soldiers and

leave the ordinary people alo . . . Oh wait.

[orangecrush]

6. +1

[Maru Kitteh]

9. bingo

[Sympthsical]

2. Someone should write a sternly worded letter to Hamas about this

It's simple. One of the basic actions in war is to deprive your enemy of resources.

Well, Hamas doesn't do international law. So they hide their arms and fester among the civilian population. If Hamas did not do this, there would no need for Palestinians to suffer as much. However, they want to do this. They want the suffering. They want to make their military defeat come with as much civilian suffering as possible.

This is on Hamas.

So, should we buy stamps for that letter or what?

[BannonsLiver]

3. That'll show em.

[The_Casual_Observer]

5. Are the full throated supporters of Israel ready to choke this

Down and cheer them on?

[Sympthsical]

7. Are you including the President in that question?

Just curious, since my position tends to closely mirror his own.

I hold Hamas responsible for what happens due to their hiding among civilians in contravention of international law. All our sudden international law legal eagles can look up the Rome Statute.

Of course, Hamas isn't one of the 123 signatories to that. That is irksome.

[The_Casual_Observer]

10. I don't answer questions. Sorry.

[The Magistrate]

11. Just Ask Them, Eh?

[The_Casual_Observer]

12. Pffftttt

[The Magistrate]

14. Had A Two Year Old Do Something Similar Once

Child was going through a bad bout of the 'noes', asked him if no was all he could say. He looked up after a moment, pointed at the revolving ceiling fan.

Bright kid.

[The_Casual_Observer]

15. Good for you!

[The Magistrate]

19. I Expect You'll Bore Me Soon Enough

"Rest assured, a walk though the ocean of most souls would scarcely wet your feet."

[DemocraticPatriot]

23. They already did, I suspect...

[Cha]

25. Just ask them and say " Pffftttt'

[Bernardo de La Paz]

41. Questions for everyone else (your post #5) but not for you? Okay, we see. . . . . nt

[OrangeJoe]

33. Neither are Israel or the United States. That's pathetic.

[Calculating]

18. Yeah

Throughout history there have been examples where the guilty party had to be punished for their unusually cruel actions as a people/nation. Our nation decided that Japan was worthy of two atomic bombs to 'end the conflict'. Did all of those civilians deserve to die? No, but that's what happens in existential war. Palestinians just carried out Israel's 9-11, and hell will be paid.

[The Magistrate]

8. Thank You For Putting This Up, Sir

Here are links to two matters with some bearing on Israel v. Palestine particularly:


https://casebook.icrc.org/case-study/israel-power-cuts-gaza#part_a_para_17



https://casebook.icrc.org/case-study/israel-house-demolitions-occupied-palestinian-territory

[DBoon]

13. K&R

Someone needs to advocate for the law here, rather than revenge and bloodlust

[TomDaisy]

16. yep

[flamingdem]

17. Biden does but someone also must pay for that

Civilians need to be evacuated to the south or to other countries.

[The Magistrate]

21. It Certainly Does Help To See What It Actually Is, Sir

[Beastly Boy]

20. The obvious purpose of this post is to accuse Israel of imposing collective punishment. Not so fast.

The definition given talks of "types of sanctions, harassment or administrative action taken against a group in retaliation for an act committed by an individual/s who are considered to form part of the group."

Who does Israel sanction? Hamas.
Who does Israel harass? Hamas.
Who is the group being retaliated against? Hamas.
Which individuals does Israel act against that do not belong to the group called Hamas?... Crickets.

Does Israel have the right to sanction, harass, administer retaliatory actions against Hamas? Absolutely.
Who is responsible for the well being of protected people in such circumstance? Hamas.

This is what Articles 28 and 29 of the fourth Geneva Conventions say:

ART. 28. — The presence of a protected person may not be used
to render certain points or areas immune from military operations.

ART. 29. — The Party to the conflict in whose hands protected
persons may be, is responsible for the treatment accorded to them
by its agents, irrespective of any individual responsibility which may
be incurred

https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/documents/atrocity-crimes/Doc.33_GC-IV-EN.pdf

But it's easy enough to imply guilt by association when you only tell the part of the story that fits your narrative.

[The Magistrate]

22. It Can Be Reasonably Argued, Sir

That a blockade of Gaza constitutes a punishment of its populace. I do not make one, but certainly soon enough the measure's effects will be punishing.

Hamas using the Gaza populace as human shields is certainly criminal, and attacks on them when so situated likely are not.

[Beastly Boy]

29. Indeed it could be argued, and it has been.

I just don't see the argument affecting actionable consequences based on international law.

[The Magistrate]

30. No One Is Going To Enforce International Law Here, Sir

It is simply a cudgel taken up by advocates to paint their opponents as mot just wrong but criminally wrong. It is worth sorting through the charges to make an assessment of which are valid and which mere hyperbole, but is does not matter much.


"No law which conflicts with the ability of a force in the field to maintain itself is likely to be observed."

[TomDaisy]

26. Israel announces 'complete siege' of Gaza, cutting its electricity, food, water, and fuel

Israel announces 'complete siege' of Gaza, cutting its electricity, food, water, and fuel

Israel's Defense Minister Yoav Gallant announced on Monday that he has ordered a "complete siege" of the Gaza strip, according to the Times of Israel.

"There will be no electricity, no food, no fuel, everything is closed," he was reported as telling commanders at the Israel Defense Forces' Southern Command.

"We are fighting human animals and we are acting accordingly," he added, per the paper's translation of his remarks.

Gallant's remarks were followed by an order from Israel's Energy Minister Israel Katz to cut off water to Gaza, per the Times of Israel. Electricity and fuel were halted two days ago, he is reported to have added.

https://www.businessinsider.com/israel-gallant-announces-complete-siege-gaza-no-electricity-food-fuel-2023-10

[Beastly Boy]

34. I can find no references to international laws that govern the transfer of resources

from one party in a conflict to another, or how these transfers are treated by international law in connection to protected people, collective punishment or war crimes .

If you find anything that clarifies whether such transfers are connected to any of the above, I would appreciate a link.

[TomDaisy]

35. I found a reference under "collective punishment"

[Beastly Boy]

44. Does it have to do with transfering resources between belligerent parties?

Could you post a link?

Your OP has nothing on the subject, nor does it describe transferring of resources as a potential war crime.

In fact, ti describes collective punishment in the most general terms which may or may not relate to Israel, or any other parties.

[TomDaisy]

46. it has to do with punishing innocent children

[Beastly Boy]

47. So what exatcly does one party not transferring resources to another party constitute

collective punishhment? And on whose authority?

Pardon for doubting your authority in determining this complex issue of global magnitude.

[treestar]

48. since they have the power to do this

they already have control of Gaza; they already won the war.

911 was also a terrorist attack. We went against Al Qaeda. But everyone is Afghanistan was not Al Qaeda.

I recall arguing that terrorism was a crime rather than an act of war, as terrorist groups are not an army with a nation behind them.

There is a blurring here - that terrorist groups are the equal of an army, thus Dubya said we were now at war.

So as a nation we can't talk - we were fine with bombing Afghanis because of Al Qaeda.

[Silent3]

24. Where do you draw the line between collective punishment and collateral damage?

Collateral damage is regrettable, and all efforts should be made to keep collateral damage to a minimum, but collateral damage is NOT a war crime.

Hamas has deliberately chosen to fight in a way that makes collateral damage almost completely unavoidable. Israel can't simply give up on defending themselves because of that.

[Cha]

28. What the Butchers of HAMAS Did Is A WAR CRIME.

THIS IS ON HAMAS

How you liking them now, Palestinians.?

And, those who are Rallying around the World and chanting "Gas The Jews"?! How you like them now that it's time for HAMAS to Pay the Price that ya'll are out there like mindless zombies Cheering On the Mindless Zombies.

[BlueCheeseAgain]

31. That description fits Hamas's actions perfectly.

Deliberately killing 1000 civilians because of the actions of other people of their nationality.

[Tomconroy]

32. To date there is no evidence that Israel is imposing collective

Punishment. It's response has been measured and hopefully effective.

[TomDaisy]

36. other than cutting off all water, power, fuel and food to Gaza

[Tomconroy]

37. Such a tactic is for now a humane way to put

Pressure on hamas to release the hostages. Nobody has died of hunger or thirst yet.
And I've read that one entry way for supplies remains open.
I do find it odd that a country in the mideast has only a few days worth of fuel in storage. It tells you a lot about the values of its government.

[TomDaisy]

40. Regarding government values - Israel controls what goes in and out of Gaza.

Gaza is an open-air prison. They do not have anything other than what Israel allows in or out.

[Tomconroy]

43. Egypt actually controls a fair amount of that border.

[FBaggins]

45. Cut off how? It's entirely relevant

Did they intentionally bomb a desalinization facility in Gaza or poison an aquifer? Or did they merely cease providing water to a country they were at war with?

If Ukraine had been supplying food to Russia would it be a war crime to stop when they were invaded?

Egypt has closed the border with Gaza and thus fuel is not able to come in to resupply their only power plant. Is Egypt guilty of a war crime?

[malaise]

38. War crimes only matter for some countries

or groups

[Kaleva]

42. Sherman's march to the sea could then be considered a war crime

Same with the Allied bombing of civilians in WWII