I saw an IDF soldier on PBS tonight. He said the plan is

[scipan]

to bomb every known Hamas building, and there are a thousand. That's before they start going from building to building.

Also that it's Hamas' policy to put them in with civilians. As most of us know by now.

That means of course no real effort to protect the hostages.

If possible to eliminate Hamas in Gaza, obviously saving future lives and maybe even changing the Gaza culture/government, it might be worth it? What else can end this?

[flamingdem]

1. Biden reminded all parties about the rules of war today

Bet that the USA will find some way to get civilians out of the way as much as possible.

They need international help, from Egypt for sure.

[JohnSJ]

2. Unfortunately no matter what anyone says, there are no rules in war, or there wouldn't be war

[OAITW r.2.0]

5. I agree. Israel will not allow an unfortunate few to constrain their plan to deal with Hamas and

Hezbollah on their terms.

[ZonkerHarris]

10. cue the genocide

[OAITW r.2.0]

17. Not necessarilly.

More like a brutal surgical battle conducted within the Gaza Strip to eliminate Hamas. And I would not sell Israel short on their mission or determination. God help the folks that have no stake in this situation.

[scipan]

9. Disagree. Even thousands of years ago, a common rule/

Last edited Thu Oct 12, 2023, 12:34 AM - Edit history (1)

mutual understanding was a cease fire to remove the dead/injured.

ETA: This doesn't apply to Hamas apparently. It's like one side is playing by more evolved, for lack of a better phrase, and the other side is just IDK playing by suicidal crazy rules. Like ISIS.

[DemocraticPatriot]

12. There are 'rules in war'--- but mostly followed

by Europeans and westerners who instituted them...

(and/or who attempt to follow them...)


In the middle east and the rest of the world--- not so much

[scipan]

3. Yes. Maybe by the sea, using amphibious vehicles (I think one

or two specialized forces was called to the area). Hamas is telling people to stay in their houses. So a self-selecting dynamic would happen.

I'm not sure this would be bad.

[marybourg]

6. Rules of war, such as they are, apply to regular uniformed armies,

not to guerrilla warfare.

[The Magistrate]

26. They Certainly Do, Ma'am

Not often observed, by either party to a conflict in 'people's war' style, but they are there, and do not differ much from those regulating regular combats. Just as there are laws regarding conduct of an occupying power, which Israel routinely breaks, and has broken for years.

[marybourg]

30. Disagree and also state that there is no current occupation,

just blockade.

[The Magistrate]

38. Refering To The Entire Administration of Territories Over-Run In The '67, Ma'am

And your belief international humanitarian law has nothing to say regarding irregular bodies in arms is incorrect. You may find this worth a read:

https://scholarlycommons.law.case.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=2174&context=jil

[marybourg]

42. I didn't say that international humanitarian law has nothing to say

regarding irregular groups.

I specifically mentioned the the Geneva in one of my posts. It has much to say, but differentiates the treatment of those wearing uniforms and openly carrying arms from those who do neither in several aspects of war.

But these are international conventions ratified by many, but not all, states, not amorphous laws of war. If these old “laws of war” still had some relevance, we would have not needed the various Geneva Conventions.

But it’s getting late and I wish you a good evening.

[BlueCheeseAgain]

43. Egypt wants no part of this.

Nobody seems to want to take Palestinian refugees. Not Jordan, not Egypt, not Lebanon.

[RockRaven]

4. Killing begets killing, but somehow more killing is supposedly the appropriate response which

will end all of this.

History is replete with examples of that working really well... Right?... Right?

[OAITW r.2.0]

7. Fact of life here on planet Earth in 2023.

Same shit, different date.

[ZonkerHarris]

13. It doesn't have to be this way. It's the choice of both sides. People in South Africa and Belfast

ultimately chose peace and worked very hard for it.
It takes accountability and forgiveness for a history of evil choices on both sides.

[OAITW r.2.0]

24. Who is this "Both Sides"?

One side is a State that is world recognized and the other is a group of racicalized nutjobs that don't really speak for anyone in the Gaza Strip. If Israel goes nutz on Hamas, they may find many people willing to turn these idiots in.

[ZonkerHarris]

44. Not all Palestinians are part of the terrorist group known as Hamas

Do a little research

[ShazzieB]

48. Maybe you should do some research.

Nobody said that all Palestinians are part of Hamas. As OAITW r.2.0 noted, "One side is a State that is world recognized and the other is a group of radicalized nutjobs that don't really speak for anyone in the Gaza Strip." That group of radicalized nutjobs is Hamas.

I don't know how many articles I've read or how many hours of news coverage I've watched referring to this war as the "Israel-Hamas War." That's because Israel was attacked by Hamas and is now at war with Hamas, not the Palestinian people.

Unfortunately, Hamas is going to do everything in their power to make it as hard as possible for the Israelis to take them out without also taking out random Palestinians, because those are the kind of games Hamas likes to play. /s So yes, a lot of people are going to die who shouldn't have to, and it sucks, but it's Hamas that's to blame for that.

I've come to realize that Israel doesn't have a choice in the matter, because eliminating Hamas is absolutely necessary. Hamas has clearly stated that their goal is to completely eliminate ALL jews from the world. Not just Israel; the entire planet. No Jews in Israel or anywhere else on earth are going to be safe as long as Hamas exists. Hamas is playing for keeps; Israel has to either do the same or surrender. I think we all know that "surrender" is not in the Israeli playback.

It makes me sick at heart to think about all the innocent Israeli and Palestinian lives that have already been taken and will continue to be taken, but it's not my call. I'm not Jewish, my ancestors weren't persecuted for thousands of years, and no one has attempted to commit the genocide of everyone on earth like me. Because of that, I honestly don't think it's any of my business what Israel does about this. I want Israel to survive, and I want the Jews as a people to survive. This is their fight, not mine, and I support them. That is all.

[marybourg]

25. But Palestinians do not compromise. Their culture seemingly

does not allow for it. Otherwise the Camp David Accords (and numerous other attempts at peace- making over the past 75 years )would have worked. It’s been their way or the highway for the whole 75 years, meanwhile further and further debasing and impoverishing their own people

[RockRaven]

28. Their culture?

Oh...

[marybourg]

33. Yes, the same culture that keeps their women behind doors

( you can always tell at a glance whether a mourning or angry crowd in in the conflict is Israeli or Palestinian by the respective presence or absence of women). In latin countries we call it the culture of “macho”.

[marybourg]

8. So the answer is?

[BannonsLiver]

11. Israel turning the other cheek, apparently.

[marybourg]

15. Ahh, I hadn't considered that.

But wasn’t that the other guy?

[BannonsLiver]

19. I don't consider it an appropriate response myself.

But we have some here who believe Israel should do nothing.

[DemocraticPatriot]

18. That IS what Jesus said... but Jesus was 'WOKE'...

more than I am.

The Israelis must retaliate against Hamas...

I only hope that innocent civilian casualties will be minimized....



but unfortunately, neither side in this conflict has sought out my consultations.....

[BannonsLiver]

31. I agree.

I think it’s pretty unrealistic to expect them to just take it and do nothing.

[RockRaven]

20. If anyone claims to have one, the onus is on them to prove it.

Not every problem has a solution.

[Act_of_Reparation]

23. If we're going to tell people they don't deserve to criticize policy without a "better idea"...

...then there's going to be a lot less discussion on these here discussion forums.

[scipan]

14. Traditional war: one side surrenders or else gets wiped out

History definitely is replete with examples of it. One side wins.

Do you have any suggestions for alternatives?

[flamingdem]

21. Biden's comments are aimed towards Israel imo

Law of war - Wikipedia
Principles of the laws of war

Military necessity, along with distinction, proportionality, humanity (sometimes called unnecessary suffering), and honor (sometimes called chivalry) are the five most commonly cited principles of international humanitarian law governing the legal use of force in an armed conflict.

[scipan]

34. I am so with you emotionally

But we've seen this continue since 1948. No end in sight.

The side that has no rules seems to have an advantage.

And a culture/religion that glorifies martyrdom. How do you win or negotiate a peace with them?

The civilians have no power.

[flamingdem]

37. We'll see where interests coincide

Hamas will need to do some give and take. What's left of it anyway.

[scipan]

41. I hope that's possible.

You would think so.

[scipan]

46. Thanks for the reference. It makes some basic sense.

Just for one example:

By the same token, combatants that intentionally use protected people or property as human shields or camouflage are guilty of violations of the laws of war and are responsible for damage to those that should be protected.[31]

[Calculating]

22. this

People don't seem to understand that this is a war. It's like Russia Vs Ukraine, endless devastation until one side wins or loses.

[RockRaven]

32. Perhaps abandoning the reductive "one side/other side" model would expand the choices

available.

[scipan]

35. Wise. But in practice? I don't think it's possible to negotiate with Hamas.

Do you, or do you have any other ideas?

[RockRaven]

36. I didn't suggest that in the slightest.

There are quite a lot of people in Gaza who are not Hamas, and they are not necessary monolithic. Perhaps there are opportunities available, or perhaps opportunities to be squandered and lost, in those quarters. Starting with the model of them being "one side" seems like a waste.

[scipan]

39. Sorry if I misunderstood. I agree with you. But...

Seems like you have to eliminate Hamas to get to that.

I would like to see a referendum with everyone voting.

[Calculating]

16. Nothing

It's like Nazi Germany, Hamas needs to be eliminated as an idea after what they did.

[scipan]

27. Did you know that Hamas is in several countries?

Not really disagreeing with you, but Hamas will not be eliminated. Possibly in Gaza.

[Cha]

29. I wouldn't think any IDF person would

be telling the "plans" on TV.. they should be keeping it Secret.

[scipan]

40. In the absence of anything better, I find myself down with

eliminating Hamas as long as Israel tries to limit killing Palestinians.

[Ace Rothstein]

45. The Israelis are absolutely pummeling Gaza in the early morning.

They must have hit a very large weapons cache based on the explosions and smoke you can see.

[PlutosHeart]

47. Yay for the planet earth

[Elessar Zappa]

49. It's Hamas's fault

that innocent civilians will die. They’re cowards and use women and children as human shields.