General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsI saw an IDF soldier on PBS tonight. He said the plan is
to bomb every known Hamas building, and there are a thousand. That's before they start going from building to building.
Also that it's Hamas' policy to put them in with civilians. As most of us know by now.
That means of course no real effort to protect the hostages.
If possible to eliminate Hamas in Gaza, obviously saving future lives and maybe even changing the Gaza culture/government, it might be worth it? What else can end this?
flamingdem
(39,355 posts)Bet that the USA will find some way to get civilians out of the way as much as possible.
They need international help, from Egypt for sure.
JohnSJ
(92,618 posts)OAITW r.2.0
(24,994 posts)Hezbollah on their terms.
ZonkerHarris
(24,382 posts)OAITW r.2.0
(24,994 posts)More like a brutal surgical battle conducted within the Gaza Strip to eliminate Hamas. And I would not sell Israel short on their mission or determination. God help the folks that have no stake in this situation.
scipan
(2,382 posts)Last edited Thu Oct 12, 2023, 01:34 AM - Edit history (1)
mutual understanding was a cease fire to remove the dead/injured.
ETA: This doesn't apply to Hamas apparently. It's like one side is playing by more evolved, for lack of a better phrase, and the other side is just IDK playing by suicidal crazy rules. Like ISIS.
DemocraticPatriot
(4,577 posts)by Europeans and westerners who instituted them...
(and/or who attempt to follow them...)
In the middle east and the rest of the world--- not so much
scipan
(2,382 posts)or two specialized forces was called to the area). Hamas is telling people to stay in their houses. So a self-selecting dynamic would happen.
I'm not sure this would be bad.
marybourg
(12,658 posts)not to guerrilla warfare.
The Magistrate
(95,289 posts)Not often observed, by either party to a conflict in 'people's war' style, but they are there, and do not differ much from those regulating regular combats. Just as there are laws regarding conduct of an occupying power, which Israel routinely breaks, and has broken for years.
marybourg
(12,658 posts)just blockade.
The Magistrate
(95,289 posts)And your belief international humanitarian law has nothing to say regarding irregular bodies in arms is incorrect. You may find this worth a read:
https://scholarlycommons.law.case.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=2174&context=jil
marybourg
(12,658 posts)regarding irregular groups.
I specifically mentioned the the Geneva in one of my posts. It has much to say, but differentiates the treatment of those wearing uniforms and openly carrying arms from those who do neither in several aspects of war.
But these are international conventions ratified by many, but not all, states, not amorphous laws of war. If these old laws of war still had some relevance, we would have not needed the various Geneva Conventions.
But its getting late and I wish you a good evening.
BlueCheeseAgain
(1,654 posts)Nobody seems to want to take Palestinian refugees. Not Jordan, not Egypt, not Lebanon.
RockRaven
(15,196 posts)will end all of this.
History is replete with examples of that working really well... Right?... Right?
OAITW r.2.0
(24,994 posts)Same shit, different date.
ZonkerHarris
(24,382 posts)ultimately chose peace and worked very hard for it.
It takes accountability and forgiveness for a history of evil choices on both sides.
OAITW r.2.0
(24,994 posts)One side is a State that is world recognized and the other is a group of racicalized nutjobs that don't really speak for anyone in the Gaza Strip. If Israel goes nutz on Hamas, they may find many people willing to turn these idiots in.
ZonkerHarris
(24,382 posts)Do a little research
ShazzieB
(16,808 posts)Nobody said that all Palestinians are part of Hamas. As OAITW r.2.0 noted, "One side is a State that is world recognized and the other is a group of radicalized nutjobs that don't really speak for anyone in the Gaza Strip." That group of radicalized nutjobs is Hamas.
I don't know how many articles I've read or how many hours of news coverage I've watched referring to this war as the "Israel-Hamas War." That's because Israel was attacked by Hamas and is now at war with Hamas, not the Palestinian people.
Unfortunately, Hamas is going to do everything in their power to make it as hard as possible for the Israelis to take them out without also taking out random Palestinians, because those are the kind of games Hamas likes to play. /s So yes, a lot of people are going to die who shouldn't have to, and it sucks, but it's Hamas that's to blame for that.
I've come to realize that Israel doesn't have a choice in the matter, because eliminating Hamas is absolutely necessary. Hamas has clearly stated that their goal is to completely eliminate ALL jews from the world. Not just Israel; the entire planet. No Jews in Israel or anywhere else on earth are going to be safe as long as Hamas exists. Hamas is playing for keeps; Israel has to either do the same or surrender. I think we all know that "surrender" is not in the Israeli playback.
It makes me sick at heart to think about all the innocent Israeli and Palestinian lives that have already been taken and will continue to be taken, but it's not my call. I'm not Jewish, my ancestors weren't persecuted for thousands of years, and no one has attempted to commit the genocide of everyone on earth like me. Because of that, I honestly don't think it's any of my business what Israel does about this. I want Israel to survive, and I want the Jews as a people to survive. This is their fight, not mine, and I support them. That is all.
marybourg
(12,658 posts)does not allow for it. Otherwise the Camp David Accords (and numerous other attempts at peace- making over the past 75 years )would have worked. Its been their way or the highway for the whole 75 years, meanwhile further and further debasing and impoverishing their own people
RockRaven
(15,196 posts)Oh...
marybourg
(12,658 posts)( you can always tell at a glance whether a mourning or angry crowd in in the conflict is Israeli or Palestinian by the respective presence or absence of women). In latin countries we call it the culture of macho.
marybourg
(12,658 posts)BannonsLiver
(16,620 posts)marybourg
(12,658 posts)But wasnt that the other guy?
BannonsLiver
(16,620 posts)But we have some here who believe Israel should do nothing.
DemocraticPatriot
(4,577 posts)more than I am.
The Israelis must retaliate against Hamas...
I only hope that innocent civilian casualties will be minimized....
but unfortunately, neither side in this conflict has sought out my consultations.....
BannonsLiver
(16,620 posts)I think its pretty unrealistic to expect them to just take it and do nothing.
RockRaven
(15,196 posts)Not every problem has a solution.
Act_of_Reparation
(9,116 posts)...then there's going to be a lot less discussion on these here discussion forums.
scipan
(2,382 posts)History definitely is replete with examples of it. One side wins.
Do you have any suggestions for alternatives?
flamingdem
(39,355 posts)Law of war - Wikipedia
Principles of the laws of war
Military necessity, along with distinction, proportionality, humanity (sometimes called unnecessary suffering), and honor (sometimes called chivalry) are the five most commonly cited principles of international humanitarian law governing the legal use of force in an armed conflict.
scipan
(2,382 posts)But we've seen this continue since 1948. No end in sight.
The side that has no rules seems to have an advantage.
And a culture/religion that glorifies martyrdom. How do you win or negotiate a peace with them?
The civilians have no power.
flamingdem
(39,355 posts)Hamas will need to do some give and take. What's left of it anyway.
scipan
(2,382 posts)You would think so.
scipan
(2,382 posts)Just for one example:
People don't seem to understand that this is a war. It's like Russia Vs Ukraine, endless devastation until one side wins or loses.
RockRaven
(15,196 posts)available.
scipan
(2,382 posts)Do you, or do you have any other ideas?
RockRaven
(15,196 posts)There are quite a lot of people in Gaza who are not Hamas, and they are not necessary monolithic. Perhaps there are opportunities available, or perhaps opportunities to be squandered and lost, in those quarters. Starting with the model of them being "one side" seems like a waste.
scipan
(2,382 posts)Seems like you have to eliminate Hamas to get to that.
I would like to see a referendum with everyone voting.
Calculating
(2,958 posts)It's like Nazi Germany, Hamas needs to be eliminated as an idea after what they did.
scipan
(2,382 posts)Not really disagreeing with you, but Hamas will not be eliminated. Possibly in Gaza.
Cha
(298,644 posts)be telling the "plans" on TV.. they should be keeping it Secret.
scipan
(2,382 posts)eliminating Hamas as long as Israel tries to limit killing Palestinians.
Ace Rothstein
(3,206 posts)They must have hit a very large weapons cache based on the explosions and smoke you can see.
PlutosHeart
(1,325 posts)Elessar Zappa
(14,207 posts)that innocent civilians will die. Theyre cowards and use women and children as human shields.