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AntivaxHunters

(3,234 posts)
Thu Oct 12, 2023, 10:05 AM Oct 2023

My heart hurts for all of the innocents trapped

My heart hurts for all of the innocent people who are terrified & hurt in this whole conflict.

I'm staunchly anti-war & anti-violence. What we've seen since Saturday is horrific & horrible. But I fear this is overshadowing the entire conflict of 75 years & that is NOT a good thing....


I'm First Nations, & maybe I see this conflict in a different light than many do because of the history of our people. I like this entire conflict very similar to how the United States treated Native peoples in the 18th, 19th, & early 20th centuries.eith regards to how Israel treats the Palestinian people. I also feel that's dangerous that many of the atrocities Israel has committed against the Palestinian people seem to be simply brushed away & not being given a second thought. That's incredibly dangerous to do, & that's what happened to Native history, the sweeping under the rug over centuries of the atrocities committed against us.

Palestinian people have had their homes burned, bulldozed, set a flame. They are constantly harassed by the IDF because they see them as less than they are. Innocent people literally take a bullet to the head for simply being Palestinian & there are NUMEROUS instances of this happening...

Below is a picture of Shireen Abu Akleh, she was a reporter. She was also an American citizen. She was murdered by IDF forces for simply doing her job. She left children & a husband behind in New Jersey where they lived. She is but one of many who has been murdered by Israeli forces....
Are we simply forget needless killings like her because of what happened Saturday?




On the other side of the coin, terrorist organizations must be brought to justice. Without question. Innocent Israeli people should NEVER have to worry about sitting in a cafe drinking coffee & only wonder if maybe this time is the last time they see the light of day because a suicide bomber walked in with a "det vest" & decided to unalive himself in the name of religion.

There is a problem however.
You can't defeat extremism. You can't defeat an ideology. It is, for all intent & purposes, literally impossible. You can however change minds. And that is done through compassion & empathy, not bombs. And that is the path this entire conflict MUST take if we seriously want this entire conflict to end once & for all.

For 75 years we've witnessed the logic of "gang warfare" first hand. It's the exact same psychology at play we saw with the "gang warfare" between the Crips & Bloods. The war over territory (land) and the never ending "tit-for-tat" mindset where revenge is a never ending circle.

That circle & breaking it needs to be the path forward. If not then none of this will ever end. Ever.

In war, it's always the innocent who suffer the most.
And it's those innocent lives we must save.
I leave you with some quotes....





40 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
My heart hurts for all of the innocents trapped (Original Post) AntivaxHunters Oct 2023 OP
Chief Joseph was an excellent choice to include with Carter and Mandela. hlthe2b Oct 2023 #1
Thank you for this. redqueen Oct 2023 #2
You're welcome AntivaxHunters Oct 2023 #12
Sadly, it will never end because it never has. Polly Hennessey Oct 2023 #3
I'm not ready to wave a white flag AntivaxHunters Oct 2023 #13
Please send this over to Hamas and request their thoughtful consideration of your points for Peace. PCIntern Oct 2023 #4
See, this is what I speak of AntivaxHunters Oct 2023 #5
So if Israel stood down and did not respond to hamas attacks, onenote Oct 2023 #33
Post removed Post removed Oct 2023 #7
I understand your feelings and frustration Duncanpup Oct 2023 #6
Thank you AntivaxHunters Oct 2023 #19
I get you Bettie Oct 2023 #8
They can flame away all they wish AntivaxHunters Oct 2023 #10
+1 Duncan Grant Oct 2023 #25
I understand your pain Keepthesoulalive Oct 2023 #9
Oh I'm ok AntivaxHunters Oct 2023 #11
Indeed. lapucelle Oct 2023 #14
+100 Mossfern Oct 2023 #15
According to a UN report, Hamas commits war crimes against the Palestinian people. lapucelle Oct 2023 #21
Now look at the whole conflict AntivaxHunters Oct 2023 #18
Hamas terrorists have a way of terrifying both the Palestinian children they use as human shields lapucelle Oct 2023 #20
+1 MorbidButterflyTat Oct 2023 #32
Jews have endured 2000 years of hatred and genocide and people blaming them for their own situation LexVegas Oct 2023 #16
That's literally not what I'm doing AntivaxHunters Oct 2023 #17
The two sides in the war are Israel and Hamas. lapucelle Oct 2023 #22
Who said otherwise? AntivaxHunters Oct 2023 #23
"There are innocent people on both sides...". lapucelle Oct 2023 #24
The Palestinian people AntivaxHunters Oct 2023 #26
The Palestinian people are not on "the other side". They are victims of Hamas. lapucelle Oct 2023 #28
Given what my post is about up top AntivaxHunters Oct 2023 #29
The war is between Israel and Hamas. There is a good side in this fight. It's Israel. lapucelle Oct 2023 #31
Sounds like edhopper Oct 2023 #27
Tell us you didn't read what I said without telling us AntivaxHunters Oct 2023 #30
how do you suggest Hamas be "brought to justice" so that Israelis aren't at risk of Hamas attacks? onenote Oct 2023 #34
You misconstrued AloeVera Oct 2023 #40
I've appreciated your contributions these past few days Xavier Breath Oct 2023 #35
Thank you AntivaxHunters Oct 2023 #36
When you remove a post that needs to be removed Xavier Breath Oct 2023 #37
THANKS FOR THIS GREAT POST, & COMMENTS BY NELSON MENDELA, JIMMY CARTER & CHIEF JOSEPH Stuart G Oct 2023 #38
Well - I'm a black American JustAnotherGen Oct 2023 #39

redqueen

(115,186 posts)
2. Thank you for this.
Thu Oct 12, 2023, 10:10 AM
Oct 2023

Love this part

There is a problem however.
You can't defeat extremism. You can't defeat an ideology. It is, for all intent & purposes, literally impossible. You can however change minds. And that is done through compassion & empathy, not bombs. And that is the path this entire conflict MUST take if we seriously want this entire conflict to end once & for all.


Reminds me of what DeNiro said about Republicans

PCIntern

(28,369 posts)
4. Please send this over to Hamas and request their thoughtful consideration of your points for Peace.
Thu Oct 12, 2023, 10:12 AM
Oct 2023
 

AntivaxHunters

(3,234 posts)
5. See, this is what I speak of
Thu Oct 12, 2023, 10:16 AM
Oct 2023

It's NOT ONLY Hamas.
It takes 2 to Tengo & you need to recognize that.
Why ignore the atrocities Israel has committed? Why?

There is no good guy in this conflict.
Both sides are bad.

onenote

(46,142 posts)
33. So if Israel stood down and did not respond to hamas attacks,
Thu Oct 12, 2023, 10:46 PM
Oct 2023

do you think that would make Israel's citizens safe from Hamas attacking?

Response to PCIntern (Reply #4)

Bettie

(19,704 posts)
8. I get you
Thu Oct 12, 2023, 11:03 AM
Oct 2023

Very well stated. However, you'll get flamed for it anyway.

Too many seem eager to deny that Palestinians in Gaza or the W. Bank are human beings.

 

AntivaxHunters

(3,234 posts)
10. They can flame away all they wish
Thu Oct 12, 2023, 11:51 AM
Oct 2023

But the reality is a solution comes from logic & rational thinking, not emotions ❤️

Keepthesoulalive

(2,304 posts)
9. I understand your pain
Thu Oct 12, 2023, 11:14 AM
Oct 2023

Take a break from the hate on the forums. Bloodlust must wear itself out and then maybe we can come together and kick the MF to the curb forever. I wish you peace.

 

AntivaxHunters

(3,234 posts)
11. Oh I'm ok
Thu Oct 12, 2023, 11:53 AM
Oct 2023

If anything it's interesting to hear other people's point of views. As 8 said though, we have the power to change minds & that begins here.

lapucelle

(21,061 posts)
21. According to a UN report, Hamas commits war crimes against the Palestinian people.
Thu Oct 12, 2023, 07:41 PM
Oct 2023
Hamas commits double war crimes

By targeting Israeli civilians and using its own civilians as human shields, Hamas rockefire constitutes a double war crime. “Hamas, not only deliberately attacks Israeli civilians, but intentionally exposes its own civilians to the deadly consequences of the hostilities it
provokes itself.

In truth, it is Hamas—and only Hamas—that is illegally attacking civilians.” Human rights groups have condemned Hamas rockets as double war crimes.

https://www.un.org/unispal/wp-content/uploads/2021/06/AHRC47NGO72_250621.pdf

lapucelle

(21,061 posts)
20. Hamas terrorists have a way of terrifying both the Palestinian children they use as human shields
Thu Oct 12, 2023, 07:34 PM
Oct 2023
and the Israeli children who they come to butcher.

=================================================




LexVegas

(6,959 posts)
16. Jews have endured 2000 years of hatred and genocide and people blaming them for their own situation
Thu Oct 12, 2023, 06:28 PM
Oct 2023

That continues.

 

AntivaxHunters

(3,234 posts)
17. That's literally not what I'm doing
Thu Oct 12, 2023, 06:56 PM
Oct 2023

My concern is for ALL of the innocent people on BOTH sides of this conflict & I really don't understand why some people have such a difficult time understanding such a position.

No 10 years old kid asked to be in this conflict. Nor did the 90 year old grandmother.

lapucelle

(21,061 posts)
22. The two sides in the war are Israel and Hamas.
Thu Oct 12, 2023, 08:26 PM
Oct 2023

There are no innocent people on the Hamas side.



lapucelle

(21,061 posts)
28. The Palestinian people are not on "the other side". They are victims of Hamas.
Thu Oct 12, 2023, 09:12 PM
Oct 2023

Hamas violates numerous International Humanitarian Law (IHL) rules, as codified in Additional Protocol I to the Geneva Conventions.


1. Article 48: Parties must “distinguish between the civilian population and combatants…”

2. Article 51(4): Prohibiting indiscriminate attacks such as where the “method or means of
combat cannot be directed at a specific military objective.”

3. Article 51(7): Civilians should not be used “to render certain points or areas immune
from military operations, in particular attempts to shield military objectives…”

4. Article 52: “Attacks shall be limited strictly to military objectives.”

5. Article 58: Parties should “avoid locating military objectives within or near densely
populated areas.”


The Palestinian people are victims of Hamas war crimes.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Surely you're not conflating the terrorist group Hamas and the Palestinian people.

 

AntivaxHunters

(3,234 posts)
29. Given what my post is about up top
Thu Oct 12, 2023, 09:29 PM
Oct 2023

You're taking me completely out of context.
The Palestinian people are victims of Hamas, correct, & they are also victims of the Israeli government & their oppression.

Let's be honest.

The ones hurting the most in the conflict are the innocent.
Let's not minimize the atrocities what Israel has done & engage in gaslighting.

And let's not forget the horror Hamas has committed either.

There is NO good side in this fight.

lapucelle

(21,061 posts)
31. The war is between Israel and Hamas. There is a good side in this fight. It's Israel.
Thu Oct 12, 2023, 09:59 PM
Oct 2023

Your giant picture is decontextualized.

From your source:

Violence has broken out after weeks of tension stoked by violent clashes between Israeli police and Palestinian protestors in Jerusalem. Israel has carried out heavy airstrikes in Gaza with the Hanadi tower, a combined office and apartment complex owned by Hamas, targeted and destroyed.

The militant group has fired rockets towards major Israeli cities including Tel Aviv, Ashkelon and Beersheba with one volley of 130 projectiles thought to be the single largest barrage ever seen. Footage posted on social media shows Israeli Iron Dome missiles intercepting many of the incoming rockets as air raid sirens blared in the background.


https://www.statista.com/chart/16516/israeli-palestinian-casualties-by-in-gaza-and-the-west-bank/

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

The context of your source provides support for the contention that Hamas is committing "double war crimes": war crimes against both the people of Israel and the people of Palestine.


International Humanitarian Law (IHL) rules, as codified in Additional Protocol I to the Geneva Conventions.

1. Article 48: Parties must “distinguish between the civilian population and combatants…”

2. Article 51(4): Prohibiting indiscriminate attacks such as where the “method or means of
combat cannot be directed at a specific military objective.”

3. Article 51(7): Civilians should not be used “to render certain points or areas immune
from military operations, in particular attempts to shield military objectives…”

4. Article 52: “Attacks shall be limited strictly to military objectives.”

5. Article 58: Parties should “avoid locating military objectives within or near densely
populated areas.”


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

As a bonus, your source shows that the Iron Dome missile defense system works. I'm glad that Democrats voted to continue funding it.

https://rollcall.com/2021/09/23/house-passes-israel-iron-dome-funding-with-some-democratic-defections/







edhopper

(37,370 posts)
27. Sounds like
Thu Oct 12, 2023, 09:06 PM
Oct 2023

You are taking Hamas' side and only see Israel as the bad actor.
Sounds like you are justifying what Hamas did.
You keep saying you don't condone what Hamas did, and then say Israel is an occupier and post pro-Palestinian propaganda to paint Israel as the bad guys and all the Palestinians as innocent.

I've heard enough from you on this.

 

AntivaxHunters

(3,234 posts)
30. Tell us you didn't read what I said without telling us
Thu Oct 12, 2023, 09:34 PM
Oct 2023

What a self own.

What part of this fits your narrative?
How about none of it.
Next time please read what I wrote before criticizing me.
Thank you.

onenote

(46,142 posts)
34. how do you suggest Hamas be "brought to justice" so that Israelis aren't at risk of Hamas attacks?
Thu Oct 12, 2023, 10:50 PM
Oct 2023

When Hamas is launching rockets and slaughtering women and children, platitudes aren't much of a solution.

AloeVera

(4,263 posts)
40. You misconstrued
Sun Oct 15, 2023, 12:56 AM
Oct 2023

The bias is clearly yours, not the posters. In your zeal to defend Israel you accuse someone trying to present both sides and having sympathy for both sides of being a Hamas supporter. Surely you know that one can support Palestinians without being pro-Hamas. One can also support Palestinians and the people of Israel at the same time. If you claim otherwise you are deliberately obtuse or in thrall to some agenda which I won't name.

Believe it or not there is also a Palestinian side. Theirs is a story and history you seem unfamiliar with or not interested in. You have clearly taken sides. As witnessed by your reference to "Palestinian propaganda".

Lastly, if you deny Israel is an occupier you know nothing about the history of the last 75 years or you just don't like to acknowledge a reality you can't defend.

In case you accuse me too of being pro-Hamas - I am as much pro-Hamas as I am pro-Zionist. Read up on history and you'll figure that one out.

Peace.

Xavier Breath

(6,640 posts)
35. I've appreciated your contributions these past few days
Thu Oct 12, 2023, 10:58 PM
Oct 2023

although many of your responses to others disappeared along with items I had to remove. I wanted you to know that, and keep up the good work

 

AntivaxHunters

(3,234 posts)
36. Thank you
Thu Oct 12, 2023, 11:01 PM
Oct 2023

I very much appreciate that greatly 🙏
My responses disappeared? That's quite strange.

Xavier Breath

(6,640 posts)
37. When you remove a post that needs to be removed
Thu Oct 12, 2023, 11:04 PM
Oct 2023

it takes any associated responses with it. So, no reflection on you, just how the site needs to work, and my phrasing of that was a little clumsy.

JustAnotherGen

(38,054 posts)
39. Well - I'm a black American
Fri Oct 13, 2023, 07:49 PM
Oct 2023

And when I look at what happened last Saturday . . .

I see Tulsa, Rosewood, The Cherokee Nation Rebellion (enslaved by the Cherokee), Colfax, East St. Louis, Philadelphia . . .

The difference is those folks didn't have guns to shoot back.

I said this a few years ago and I'll say it now - we aren't our grandfathers or great grandfathers - neither are the Israelis.

Me? I'm not cosplaying.

Also - the bloods and the crips? Nothing like this. Black folks were killing our own - not others. It was self inflicted black genocide. Try being black in AmeriKKKa for 400 years and maybe you'll understand it better. America created the economy of drugs . . .

Its why the opioid thing doesn't phase me. As Eminem said "middle America NOW its a tragedy".

Never under estimate the resentment of black gen exers.

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