Israel is being very generous

[orangecrush]

A 24 hour warning is a lot more warning than the innocent victims of Hamas got.

EOM

[underpants]

1. Yeah we did the same thing in Fallujah

and then we wasted everyone.

[Marcus IM]

35. The US would not allow any male 16 to 80 yrs old to leave Fallujah.

No need to paint a pretty picture of it.

[dalton99a]

2. Hamas will evacuate along with civilians

[Arazi]

4. Israel knows that I'm sure

They’re not going to have a ground war. They’ve been clear this time is different. They were never going to go hunting HAMAS through the tunnels and apartment buildings.

They’ve started a blockade and now they’re enacting a squeeze.

It’s a fucking war. Time to start thinking strategy and tactics

[maxsolomon]

55. I hope you're correct.

I've been thinking a limited invasion that divides Gaza via controlled corridors might be the approach they'll take.

I don't know if Hamas is concentrated in Gaza's north or not. Don't see why they would be.

[FBaggins]

69. Which is why Egypt isn't letting people through

Nevertheless - the warning is appropriate... not that there's anyone in Gaza who didn't already know war was coming.

[Arazi]

3. Yup. And they have to move about 10-12 miles to safety

Jfc, the condemnation of ISRAEL here is nauseating.

Hamas provoked this war and have continued launching rockets, murderous incursions etc. and now they’re going to get the war they’ve very much wanted.

Ffs, Hamas hasn’t even released a single hostage.

Enough.

It’s a fucking war and Israel is not playing

[bigtree]

5. Palestinians don't control what Hamas does

...and this is compounded by the obvious reality of Hamas' intention that the residents of Gaza be martyrs to their fight against Israel.

This is their game, and Israel is playing right along, disregarding those Palestinian lives as much as Hamas intended them to.

I'm not understanding how a people without the ability to vote for ANY leadership since 2016 is supposed to be responsible for what a small fraction of them perpetrate.

I would note that Israel had enough equilibrium to organize and vote for a coalition to carry out their military response. There is no remotely similar means for Gaza residents to control what the terrorists in Hamas perpetrate.

Being 'generous' is not how I'd describe routing a non-combatant population who has no means to direct anything Hamas does, with no actual plan or strategy for the population to move to the undefined safe spaces.

[Arazi]

7. The expat, global jubilation in support of Hamas says differently

The Palestinians themselves haven’t made any attempt to overthrow Hamas. Polls (to the degree that anything coming out of Gaza is trustworthy) indicate the majority support Hamas whose entire mission is ARMED RESISTANCE TO ISRAEL.

In fact there are ZERO known resistance groups in Gaza (or the West Bank) fighting against Hamas.

Unless I’ve missed them through the years. If you have information on Palestinian resistance groups fighting against Hamas I’d be happy to see them

[krawhitham]

60. Stop gaslighting, Hamas is a heavily armed terrorist group and the Palestinian people have what...

harsh words & rocks


BTW only 27% of Palestinians want Hamas https://pcpsr.org/en/node/916 , 27% is no where near a majority. Like I said stop gaslighting.

"27% say Hamas is most deserving of representing and leading the Palestinian people"

[redqueen]

61. [phone]

[Arazi]

70. From your own link half of Gazans want a war with Israel

Maybe not Hamas exactly but they in general support armed war with Israel, even carried out by other militia groups.

I didn’t get far enough into the survey to find your claim that Palestinians in Gaza reject Hamas.

I was struck by the fact that 50% are ok with a war with Israel

When asked about the most effective means of ending the Israeli occupation and building an independent state, the public split into three groups: 41% chose armed struggle (50% in the Gaza Strip and 35% in the West Bank), 30% negotiations, and 24% popular resistance. Three months ago, 50% chose armed struggle and 22% chose negotiations.

Thank you for the link. I plan to look at it more closely tonight after work

[krawhitham]

76. if you live under occupation for 50 years you'd want war too, but 73% don't what to be terrorists

[NowISeetheLight]

107. Why

If they would look at WHY they're blockaded. It's because of Hamas. If they would've accepted a two state solution without being solely dedicated to destroying Israel we wouldn't be here.

[leftstreet]

81. +1

[hlthe2b]

67. As others have rightly responded to you--your gaslighting is obscene or based on an incredible level

of misinformation and seemingly willing ignorance. I am behind Israel in defeating Hamas and decimating them, but tell the damned truth about the Palestinian citizens or you are merely spreading shameful propaganda.

[Arazi]

72. Provide links. Would love to examine them

[hlthe2b]

73. I've seen your posts or at least the theads where you have posted and you have been provided them

multiple times. But I will start with the Americans trapped since you don't give a damn about innocent Palestinian kids and young children.

Americans remain trapped in Gaza A senior U.S. official told NPR that it's working to get approximately 400-600 U.S. citizens out of Gaza. Roughly 100 of them have contacted the embassy for help to leave. And that does not include those missing/abducted, nor the Israeli abductees or other foreign nationals. It is not just Palestinians (whether you can bring yourself to differentiate them from Hamas terrorists or not) that remain trapped in Gaza and for which NO warning is going to get them out of harm's way. So, no, Israel is not being generous if these people are trapped. And THEY ARE. I get the desire to back Israel in its attempt to defeat and indeed, decimate Hamas, but to say the people left behind sans any way out were treated with "generosity" is an obscene dismissal of the facts and the OP should delete this disgraceful post.


For American family trapped in Gaza as bombs fall, there's no way out
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/10/12/boston-family-trapped-gaza/

No paywall
https://archive.ph/9OWMA

For Abood Okal and his family, the nights are the worst — and each night is worse than the last.

When it grows dark, the bombing in Gaza intensifies. Sometimes there is an explosion every few minutes, close enough to make the house shake. In the morning, they feel fortunate to be alive.

Okal and his wife, Wafaa Abuzayda, and their 1-year-old son Yousef left their home outside Boston last month for a long-planned reunion with their parents. They were supposed to fly home on Friday. Now they don’t know when they’ll be able to get back to the United States.

“It’s terrifying,” said Okal, 36. “I think my wife and I would be stronger if we didn’t have our son with us.”

Okal’s family is among a group of about 500 Americans caught in Gaza, according to a U.S. official who spoke on the condition of anonymity. Following Saturday’s unprecedented attacks by Hamas, Israel has massed troops near the border with Gaza and pounded the territory with airstrikes.

*snip*

Americans are still stuck in Israel, Gaza as war disrupts trips
https://www.npr.org/2023/10/13/1205180037/israel-gaza-travel-flights

[Arazi]

83. That's anecdotal and doesn't indicate anything about their support for Hamas

The question is what percent of the civilian population supports Hamas. What percent support armed warfare with Israel via other militia groups in Gaza if not Hamas.

Everything I’m reading indicates it IS a majority of the Gaza Palestinians.

I haven’t seen anything, including the article you’ve provided about the American family, that provides links stating otherwise.

I looked back over every response and nobody’s answered with facts.

Just a lot of “think of the children” responses. I AM concerned about ALL of the children on both sides and tbh, at this point Im in no mood for anything else but “Hamas has to go”. Permanently, or the cycle for the poor kids is never-ending.

If YOU really cared about ALL of the kids, then eradicating groups like Hamas IS the answer

[hlthe2b]

87. You don't bother to read the separate post I provided you addressing that so I am now done.

You clearly do not wish to let your preconceived biases be informed--given this is a pattern I've noticed with your posts and responses to others civilly trying to educate you on similar issues on other threads. And I will waste no further time politely trying. I have work of my own to do and I know DU is replete with such long-form posts on the issue--complete with very valid references.

[Arazi]

90. You literally posted that at the same time I was posting

I was responding to your one post and didn’t even have time to respond to your other post that was occurring at the same moment.

Sorry I wasn’t able to get on both equally, at the same moment.

Are you willing to have a good faith discussion or not?

That other post contains no facts on the percent of Gaza Palestinians that support armed warfare against Israel.

No facts or stats.

I’m very willing to look at links that demonstrate otherwise but other stats, and the situation on the ground, appear to indicate the Palestinians are supportive of war with Israel.

Anecdotes of trapped Americans, innocent Palestinians, children, elderly, sick, injured, are tremendously sad and horrific. It’s terrifying, maddening, barbaric. I 1000% agree with you there

[hlthe2b]

93. You know YOU can look things up. Nothing I have posted can not be

validated with reliable MSM or academic sources if you take a few minutes to even google. You don't have to be a professional researcher to find the background you need.

Like the 40% statistic. That is readily available. And it is actually 40% UNDER 15, per WAPO (scroll down, I've bolded that part):

The population in Gaza is extraordinarily young. UNICEF has estimated that there are roughly 1 million children living in the Gaza Strip, meaning that almost half the people in Gaza are children. Almost 40 percent of the population is under the age of 15, according to the CIA.

More than 1.4 million of the residents of the Gaza Strip are Palestinian refugees, according to the United Nations Relief and Works Agency (UNRWA).
From:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/10/09/gaza-strip-israel-hamas-explained/

But, this is a very good starting article on the issue, which I will gift you a free copy:
https://archive.ph/wip/gfdA7

[Arazi]

94. I'm a subscriber to WaPo

But thank you for the links.

Ok, now I see what your point is- that 50% of the residents in Gaza are children so they’re what you’re pointing to for that stat.

You do realize that Hamas and UNRWA schools have spent years indoctrinating the kids right?

Hamas even runs summer camps training kids how to kidnap and kill Israelis. It’s possible to say (with tremendous sadness), that the kids might even harbor more bloodlust towards Israel than some of their parents.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/at-annual-summer-camps-hamas-trains-kids-to-fire-guns-kidnap-soldiers/amp/

I urge YOU to do some research.

Be that as it may, I was discussing adults only. I now see where we’re failing to understand each other.

[hlthe2b]

95. You do realize that indoctrinated children are victims, do you not?

Good Gawd. If you have to look THAT up, then I can only feel very sorry for you. In your zeal for a "kill 'em all approach," THOSE are who you advocate killing. And go ahead and reassure yourself that THEY got a 24 hour warning-- what a "generous thing" to do for those trapped and with zero choices. Hamas has already threatened the population against even heading to Southern Gaza. And yes, THAT has been reported repeatedly in the Israeli media as well as our own MSM if you bother to search to prove to yourself. Israel MUST take out Hamas, but not by killing hundreds of thousands of Palestinian children and even more non-involved adults--not to mention their own (and our own) abductees. It sucks, but they are going to have to go in with intelligence and take out the major actors, then do targeted larger-scale actions afterward. I know you don't watch or read the interviews with our own former Generals who served in the region, but they are saying the same.

Your last post suggests that my time spent and efforts to provide you with what you requested are going to be met with anything but constructive discourse, but I tried. Bye

[Arazi]

96. Agreed 1000% on the kids

Ffs, I’ve already said that.

And the whole thing sucks. I’ve followed almost all of the reporting (I’ve even posted the Hamas notice myself urging civilians to stay put) and almost all agree that it’s going to be a humanitarian clusterfuck.

Nobody wants that. Including me so stop assigning that shit to me.

The thing is,Israel is NOT going to have a ground war. They’ve said it numerous times now. They ARE going to simply hit suspected targets without engaging at all. They’ve told civilians to get out of the fucking way and given them the time and place to go.

In the choice between moral equivalency, I am choosing Israel here. And I dare those who are choosing Gaza instead to give stats, real stats, on the support or lack thereof of civilian Gazan Palestinians for war with Israel as well. Cause most sure seem to support armed warfare with Israel.

Oh by the way, here’s video from this morning of a bunch of exultant Palestinians rallying in Gaza for the war.

Link to tweet

?s=46

[hlthe2b]

100. Of course there are HAMAS supporters--just as there are traitorous MAGATs who want to overthrow

our country and made a good start against democracy on Jan 6. That there are violent extremists that include sympathizers of racist, antisemitic, or terrorist organizations in any population is hardly the case to suggest wiping out the civilian population--even where targeted actions are as difficult as they clearly are here.

[hlthe2b]

77. As to your distorted history that suggests full willing, arms spread support for Hamas

That is an obscene distortion.

There have been protest and uprisings among Palestinian people over the past decades--all violently suppressed by Hamas who have not allowed elections in 17 years.
The Hamas government has seen only sporadic protests over the years and has quickly and violently suppressed them. https://apnews.com/article/israel-palestinians-hamas-conflict-endgame-1bfcc187d826596e78090ec6cbf

And yes, they really ARE trapped:
https://apnews.com/article/israel-palestinians-hamas-conflict-endgame-1bfcc187d826596e78090ec6cbf6516c
Israel’s retaliation for the Hamas assault, in which over 1,200 people were killed in Israel and dozens dragged into Gaza as hostages, will likely bring a far greater magnitude of death and destruction to Gaza, where 2.3 million Palestinians have nowhere to flee and where 1,100 have already been killed.

But, even as I agree on the priority of decimating Hammas, some are implying that they have no consideration for the lives of Palestinians, including the 40% teens and children under 17. Well, if there are not at least overt and major considerations for protecting those non-Hamas citizens then Hezbollah and by extension, other players in the region WILL be incited to get involved, and those celebrating a "no-holds-barred/Palestinians be damned" response will soon be regretting the active inclusion of the US in a regional conflagration. Do I think that is the approach Israel WANTS? No, but that is why US officials are warning Netanyahu's admin/Generals to adhere to the rules of modern war. And they DO exist and Israel is a signatory to them all--including, but not exclusive to the Geneva Conventions. Whether your enemy disregards totally any such conventions or not...

[totodeinhere]

98. Israelis do not control what the IDF does either. This is almost always to case in time of war.

n/t

[WhiskeyGrinder]

6. Collective punishment is not generous.

[Beastly Boy]

9. When did a warning to escape a war zone get elevated to the status of collective punishment?

Did the International Criminal court get alerted on this change?

[WhiskeyGrinder]

11. What is the warning for?

[Beastly Boy]

18. For informing civilians of impending military opertion, obviously.

[inthewind21]

25. You

answered your own question.

[Beastly Boy]

27. This is not a humanitarian operation,

this is a military operation.

I knew my answer long ago: Israel has done exactly what it was supposed to do, no more, no less.

[Beastly Boy]

86. An excuse to implement collective punishment without warning?

I don't understand how your question relates to my post.

[Goodheart]

13. I think you know what he's talking about.

[Beastly Boy]

19. I do, and it doesn't make sense.

[Goodheart]

20. I'm not impressed with your ability to assess what makes sense.

[Beastly Boy]

22. I am not here to impress you.

I am here to point out things that don't make logical or legal sense when logic and the rule of international law is applied to a situation.

[Demsrule86]

23. There is no place to escape too.

Hamas sucks. However, there are many trapped in GAZA who are not Hamas. It is impossible to meet Israel's demand. Where will they go?

[Beastly Boy]

26. Hamas is responsible for the logistics.

This is the war they wanted.

[Demsrule86]

30. And? It doesn't change the fact that Israel is asking the impossible. And many will

die. Not everyone in Gaza is Hamas. And some completely forget that Netanyahu dropped the ball both in policy and security. I don't want to see more dead children in Israel or Gaza. I hate Hamas and want them hunted to the ends of the earth. I also believe Netanayuh is at fault and should resign.

[Beastly Boy]

37. Israel is not asking for anything. Istael is informing gazans of impending military action

It's a warning, not an advice. Hamas is responsible for the logistics. Ask them.

[Demsrule86]

42. A warning? How so, they have no way of complying with Israel's order.

No water, no gas, and no vehicles...little food. It is impossible.

[FBaggins]

75. This isn't the first war in history

Lack of water/gas/vehicles/food is better than lack of water/gas/vehicles/food + flying bullets and dropping bombs.

People have walked away from active war zones for many hundreds of years. There doesn't have to be a reservation at a three-star hotel waiting on the other end of the path in order to start walking.

[Beastly Boy]

78. Orders? Wo bdoes Israel order?

It is a warning, not an order. Gazans can heed it and take any action at their disposal, or not. They have been warned regardless of their circumstances, and it is not on Israel to accommodate their circumstances.

And just for your information: there IS water and electricity in Gaza. Israel's water makes up 10% of Gaza's ordinary consumption and Israel's electricity makes up 50% of Gaza's ordinary consumption. Which begs the question: with so much of foreign aid going into guns and rockets for Hamas, how come it is not being spent on infrastructure instead? And how is it Israel's fault?

[Beastly Boy]

84. Tell me what you think the differnce between a warning and an order is, and,

based on your response, I may or may not continue with this nonsense

[obamanut2012]

40. Where do you think they will go?

Where do people think they will go? Especially the infirm and children, who make up the majority of those in Gaza. I would like to see folks here walk 25 miles trying to carry their child and dragging a wagon with food, water, clothing. Where will they sleep? How will they eat? No tents or latrines or water. Probably no right of return.

And, when that questions is asked, we only hear Hamas Hamas Hamas. Israel will literally be committing a war crime if they call to evacuate and then raze Gaza. That is literally ethnic cleansing.

This is not black and white, this is not white hats versus black hats. Some of us are able to realize that, and it doesn't make us Pro Hamas or Antisemitic, it just means we know it sucks to do this to any civilian, especially children, the elderly, and the infirm, who cannot leave, or if they do, they have no way of surviving. And no, it isn't because of Hamas. I am getting pretty fucking sick of this "But Hamas..." I do not fucking care. No one cares about the civilians in that part of the world. No one. The powerless have no power. The powerless cannot rise up.

[Demsrule86]

44. +1000 That is how I feel and it is what I believe.

[Arazi]

46. The *farthest* anyone has to go is 12 miles

And that’s if they live at the farthest northern edge of Gaza. The entire strip is only 25 miles long

That’s about 4 hours of walking for healthy people. Longer if you’ve got children, elderly etc.

The pictures are showing cars in the road so many are driving out.

Get south of the river is where they need to go.

It’s a fucking war that HAMAS wanted and now they’re going to get it. Israel is responding to Hamas’ wish to bring it

[Beastly Boy]

80. I can only tell you where I think they will not go.

The fortified bunkers Hamas keeps them out of.

[krawhitham]

63. When you are giving 24 hours to do something that can't logistically be done in 24 hours?

[Beastly Boy]

89. Collective punishment requires a deliberate ation to facilitate it.

A warning is the deliberate action to... well, warn of it, which is the opposite of facilitating it.

A one month warning would have the exact same purpose as a 24 hour warning.

Wrong answer.

[Mysterian]

101. Tell the babies

who got slaughtered by Hamas.

[Beastly Boy]

8. Cue in the false equivalencies of why Israel is just like hamas.

"Yes, but".

[Goodheart]

12. Israel is not "just like Hamas"

But many Israelis are just like many Palestinians: innocent in all this and not deserving of what happened and what's to come.

[Beastly Boy]

17. "No, but"

I rest my case.

[Just_Vote_Dem]

32. LOL

[obamanut2012]

41. You actually are the one "But Hamas..." all over this thread excusing actions against

Innocents.

[Beastly Boy]

82. I certainly am not.

I am very direct about putting the responsibility for the actions against the innocents squarely on Hamas regardless of Israel.

And I have international law on my side.

[Goodheart]

10. Give me a fucking break

Where are those people supposed to go? And how would they get there?

What Israel is doing is totally disproportional and the opposite of productive.

[Beastly Boy]

14. Let me guess:

Israel was supposed to provide transportation and accomodations while being fired upon by Hamas, right?

[Happy Hoosier]

28. How is it disroportional?

Hamas has perpetrated the the biggest mass killing of Jews since WWII.

Israel is justified in destroying them.

Does that man mean innocewnt people are in harm's way? Yep. the same has always been true in war.

My mother lived in Berlin in WWII as a child. She saw innumerable horrors. A bomb fell IN to her apartment, while she was there, and thankfull did not explode. That's horrible. But was the Battle of Berlin ultimately justified? I think the answer has to be yes.

Hamas has to be destroyed. That much is now clear. The best innoicent civilians can do is get out of the way as best they can. I hope that theyare permitted safe areas in Southern Gaza or even in Egypt. But Egypt does not seem inclined to give Hamas more of a foothold on their territory. I can;t really blame them.

What a horrific mess.

[Demsrule86]

33. They can't get out...so what this becomes is indiscriminate killing. I disapprove of this solution.

More innocents will die.

[Happy Hoosier]

38. Did you read the warning?

The warning explicitly says to evacutate Gaza City and move to the South of Gaza... which they CAN do.

Provided Israel does not target concentrations of civilians outside the warning zone, they are taking reasonable precautions to limit collateral damage.

You can "disapprove" of this solution. That's fine. What do you approve of?

[Demsrule86]

39. If you look into it. It is not possible. There are probably 2 million people who need to move...

no vehicles, no petrol, and the bombs are still falling. This will be catastrophic for those living in Gaza. Many are innocent.

[Happy Hoosier]

45. Two things....

First, I notice that you very carefully avoided my question. What do you suggest as an alternative? Should Israel just shrug its shoulders and do nothing? Not gonna happen. Any other option? Israel simply can simply not allow Hamas to contnue to exist as it has in Gaza.

Yes. It's horrific. I hope Hamas, who initiated this war, are quickly defeated, broadly repudiated, and the process of recovery can begin.

It's a terrible mess.

Second,

If I could do nothing else, I'd start walking south. AS you said, the attack is coming. Almost anywhere will be better than being there. As I said, my mother lived in Berlin in 1945. She had horrific stories. I expect those forced to remain in Gaza City will have similar experiences. It's going to be bad, no two ways about it.

[inthewind21]

50. No

Israel should carry on full steam ahead, level all of Gaza, kill tens if not hundreds of thousands of civilians then work on convincing the Israeli population to give up rights for safety, spend trillions and kill thousands of Israeli soldiers on a war to "wipe out" the terrorist and call it day. Wait, how are there any terrorists? The US took care of all that after 9/11.

FYI - Israel, Netenyahu to be specific is part of the reason Hamas exists in Gaza.

[Happy Hoosier]

52. But again, you offer NO alternative.

How do you expect anyone to take that seriously.

Hamas initiated this war. After Hamas is destroyed, it'll be worth talking about how we got here, and how we can avoid this going forward.

But Hamas WILL be destroyed. You can't just pollayanna this.

No one is under the illusion this will eliminate terrorism. Destruction of Al-Queda and ISIL didn't eliminate terrorism. That doesn;t mean they didn;t need to be engaged.

[obamanut2012]

43. Where do people think they will go?

Especially the infirm and children, who make up the majority of those in Gaza. I would like to see folks here walk 25 miles trying to carry their child and dragging a wagon with food, water, clothing. Where will they sleep? How will they eat? No tents or latrines or water. Probably no right of return. You cannot move that many people in less than a day.

The UN has denounced this action.

[Happy Hoosier]

53. And again.... no alternative offered.

So what's your plan.

Should Israel just shirg its shoulders and allow Hamas to remain in control of Gaza?

C'mon... you can't seriously expect that. It's not reasonable.

[Arazi]

48. At *most* it's 12 miles for those farthest north

At most.

Pictures show many are driving south as we speak

A healthy person can walk that in 4-5 hours. Sick, elderly, and families will take longer but they can get out of the strike zone

[totodeinhere]

99. Hunders of innocent Irsailis were slaughtered and over 100 were taken hostage.

Yet you call the response disproportionate? Come on now. It is the stated goal of Hamas to totally destroy Israel.

[Happy Hoosier]

15. Ummmm.... bad take.

It's not "generous."

It's the decent thing to do.

Hamas are brutal terrorists. They are not the standard.

I am sure you know that, but it is IMPORTANT that we do not see basic humanity and deceny as "generosity."

[underpants]

16. Yeah we did the same thing in Fallujah

and then we wasted everyone.

[Happy Hoosier]

47. And I'd argue Fallujah was far less justified. NT

[Kennah]

21. The plan could be an effort to get Hamas to move and give some indication of where the hostages are

[usonian]

31. You beat me to it.

Last edited Fri Oct 13, 2023, 11:44 AM - Edit history (1)

Think at least one move ahead when others are 3 moves bdhind.

And I don’t play chess.

Sherlock Holmes episode.

Dr. Watson has a secret item. Puts it in a vase.

“Visitors” create a small fire, and watch Dr. Watson hide the vase from the fire.

Bye Bye vase.

[Kennah]

106. Misdirection is a huge part of warfare

[The Magistrate]

24. What Point Do You Think You Are Making, Sir?

That's a comic book line, and I'd give odds without context it was a satiric sneer at a some measure taken by a suave super-villain....

Israel is doing the minimum necessary to stay to the lawful side of the line. As they should. But it's hardly generous, and is a military measure, not a humanitarian one. Armies work better without bystanders.


"Once you have gilded it, it no longer is a lily."

[Beastly Boy]

29. This is the distinction worth keeping in mind.

What is expected from Israel will always fall short of what is required of Israel.

Curiously, the sentiment with regards to Hamas seems to be working in reverse: what is required of Hamas appears to inevitably fall short of what is expected of Hamas.

[The Magistrate]

36. Particularly At Moments Like This, Sir, Hyperbole Only Discredits Its Author

Israel is doing the minimum necessary to stay to the lawful side of the line. I don't expect them to do more, and in the circumstances would be inclined to excuse a step or two over that line.

Hamas consists of moral imbeciles, in more ways than could be readily summarized, let alone gone into in depth: any attempt to justify their acts and ideology contaminates its author.

[orangecrush]

85. Well said, Sir.

[Tommy Carcetti]

34. I just don't know if turning Gaza City into Mariupol or Allepo will do Israel huge favors

I completely get why they are angry about the truly horrific atrocities towards some of their citizens by Hamas. And they shouldn't just take that sitting down.

But even so, I don't see how this ends well for the citizens involved, Israeli and Palestinian alike.

As I said in another post, there is simply no easy answer for this conflict. Which why it has raged on for years and years like this.

It's just cyclical punching and counter-punching to no end.

[sarisataka]

59. Welcome to DU

Are you enjoying your first day?

[ripcord]

51. I honestly don't know what people expect Israel to do

Hamas is still attacking, I guess we are back to Israel is just supposed to live with the terror attacks to protect Palestinians.

[Happy Hoosier]

54. They have no idea.

I've tried to engage some of the louder critics. NOT ONE has offered an actual alternative.

[ripcord]

56. They won't come right out and say it but they think Israel should do nothing about the terror attack

[Happy Hoosier]

57. I do understand their anguish.

Lots of innocent people are about to die. It's utterly heart-breaking. But I can't see an alternative.

[hlthe2b]

66. Tell that to Americans trapped in Gaza, whether you give a damn about Palestinian civilans or not

and I in no way object to Israel defeating/decimating Hamas. Egypt too wants them taken out, having dealt with the terrorist threat that they are. But to suggest those trapped in Gaza with no way out are somehow the recipient of "generosity" for a warning they have no way to heed is just damned obscene--and that includes a shitload of Americans.

Americans remain trapped in Gaza A senior U.S. official told NPR that it's working to get approximately 400-600 U.S. citizens out of Gaza. Roughly 100 of them have contacted the embassy for help to leave. And that does not include those missing/abducted, nor the Israeli abductees or other foreign nationals. It is not just Palestinians (whether you can bring yourself to differentiate them from Hamas terrorists or not) that remain trapped in Gaza and for which NO warning is going to get them out of harm's way. So, no, Israel is not being generous if these people are trapped. And THEY ARE. I get the desire to back Israel in its attempt to defeat and indeed, decimate Hamas, but to say the people left behind sans any way out were treated with "generosity" is an obscene dismissal of the facts and the OP should delete this disgraceful post.


For American family trapped in Gaza as bombs fall, there's no way out
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/10/12/boston-family-trapped-gaza/

No paywall
https://archive.ph/9OWMA

For Abood Okal and his family, the nights are the worst — and each night is worse than the last.

When it grows dark, the bombing in Gaza intensifies. Sometimes there is an explosion every few minutes, close enough to make the house shake. In the morning, they feel fortunate to be alive.

Okal and his wife, Wafaa Abuzayda, and their 1-year-old son Yousef left their home outside Boston last month for a long-planned reunion with their parents. They were supposed to fly home on Friday. Now they don’t know when they’ll be able to get back to the United States.

“It’s terrifying,” said Okal, 36. “I think my wife and I would be stronger if we didn’t have our son with us.”

Okal’s family is among a group of about 500 Americans caught in Gaza, according to a U.S. official who spoke on the condition of anonymity. Following Saturday’s unprecedented attacks by Hamas, Israel has massed troops near the border with Gaza and pounded the territory with airstrikes.

*snip*

Americans are still stuck in Israel, Gaza as war disrupts trips
https://www.npr.org/2023/10/13/1205180037/israel-gaza-travel-flights

[LexVegas]

62. Truth. Rec. nt

[hlthe2b]

64. For American family trapped in Gaza as bombs fall, there's no way out (WAPO)

Americans remain trapped in Gaza A senior U.S. official told NPR that it's working to get approximately 400-600 U.S. citizens out of Gaza. Roughly 100 of them have contacted the embassy for help to leave. And that does not include those missing/abducted, nor the Israeli abductees or other foreign nationals. It is not just Palestinians (whether you can bring yourself to differentiate them from Hamas terrorists or not) that remain trapped in Gaza and for which NO warning is going to get them out of harm's way. So, no, Israel is not being generous if these people are trapped. And THEY ARE. I get the desire to back Israel in its attempt to defeat and indeed, decimate Hamas, but to say the people left behind sans any way out were treated with "generosity" is an obscene dismissal of the facts and the OP should delete this disgraceful post.


For American family trapped in Gaza as bombs fall, there's no way out
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/10/12/boston-family-trapped-gaza/

No paywall
https://archive.ph/9OWMA

For Abood Okal and his family, the nights are the worst — and each night is worse than the last.

When it grows dark, the bombing in Gaza intensifies. Sometimes there is an explosion every few minutes, close enough to make the house shake. In the morning, they feel fortunate to be alive.

Okal and his wife, Wafaa Abuzayda, and their 1-year-old son Yousef left their home outside Boston last month for a long-planned reunion with their parents. They were supposed to fly home on Friday. Now they don’t know when they’ll be able to get back to the United States.

“It’s terrifying,” said Okal, 36. “I think my wife and I would be stronger if we didn’t have our son with us.”

Okal’s family is among a group of about 500 Americans caught in Gaza, according to a U.S. official who spoke on the condition of anonymity. Following Saturday’s unprecedented attacks by Hamas, Israel has massed troops near the border with Gaza and pounded the territory with airstrikes.

*snip*

Americans are still stuck in Israel, Gaza as war disrupts trips
https://www.npr.org/2023/10/13/1205180037/israel-gaza-travel-flights

[beaglelover]

65. Agree 100%

[FBaggins]

68. They gave far more than 24 hours of warning

They declared war days ago and have been evacuating their own civilians. Everyone knows that Gaza is about to receive a visit.

[hlthe2b]

71. With no way out. Excluding the abductees there are 400-600 known Americans trapped as well

Americans remain trapped in Gaza A senior U.S. official told NPR that it's working to get approximately 400-600 U.S. citizens out of Gaza. Roughly 100 of them have contacted the embassy for help to leave. And that does not include those missing/abducted, nor the Israeli abductees or other foreign nationals. It is not just Palestinians (whether you can bring yourself to differentiate them from Hamas terrorists or not) that remain trapped in Gaza and for which NO warning is going to get them out of harm's way. So, no, Israel is not being generous if these people are trapped. And THEY ARE. I get the desire to back Israel in its attempt to defeat and indeed, decimate Hamas, but to say the people left behind sans any way out were treated with "generosity" is an obscene dismissal of the facts and the OP should delete this disgraceful post.


For American family trapped in Gaza as bombs fall, there's no way out
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/10/12/boston-family-trapped-gaza/

No paywall
https://archive.ph/9OWMA

For Abood Okal and his family, the nights are the worst — and each night is worse than the last.

When it grows dark, the bombing in Gaza intensifies. Sometimes there is an explosion every few minutes, close enough to make the house shake. In the morning, they feel fortunate to be alive.

Okal and his wife, Wafaa Abuzayda, and their 1-year-old son Yousef left their home outside Boston last month for a long-planned reunion with their parents. They were supposed to fly home on Friday. Now they don’t know when they’ll be able to get back to the United States.

“It’s terrifying,” said Okal, 36. “I think my wife and I would be stronger if we didn’t have our son with us.”

Okal’s family is among a group of about 500 Americans caught in Gaza, according to a U.S. official who spoke on the condition of anonymity. Following Saturday’s unprecedented attacks by Hamas, Israel has massed troops near the border with Gaza and pounded the territory with airstrikes.

*snip*

Americans are still stuck in Israel, Gaza as war disrupts trips
https://www.npr.org/2023/10/13/1205180037/israel-gaza-travel-flights

[FBaggins]

74. No way out?

There's a defined conflict zone in the warning... walk away from it.

[obamanut2012]

91. Not everyone can do that

[FBaggins]

92. I served for a short time - never in combat

My understanding from those who did (including my parents and grandparents) is that war sucks.

That's a really good reason not to start one. But Hamas let that ship sail and then sank it. That's no longer an option.

But variations of "I really don't want to miss the next Yellowstone episode. Can you come back next week?" really aren't an option.

[hlthe2b]

97. Borders are closed and Hamas has threatened those trying to heed the warning heading South Gaza.

Not to mention this is an incredibly poor population. Not all have cars--many are on foot or horse-drawn carts. Fifty percent of the civilian population is under the age of 15:

The population in Gaza is extraordinarily young. UNICEF has estimated that there are roughly 1 million children living in the Gaza Strip, meaning that almost half the people in Gaza are children. Almost 40 percent of the population is under the age of 15, according to the CIA.

Try educating yourself. Here, I am going to gift you this from WAPO as a start: https://archive.ph/wip/gfdA7

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/10/09/gaza-strip-israel-hamas-explained/


The lack of understanding of this region is abysmal. And while I can agree with any who want to underscore the absolute need to defeat/decimate Hamas, there are realities and carpet bombing is not the answer--as our own experienced Generals from dealing with Al Qaeda have told them--per interviews and written opeds. It will require intelligence-led strikes against the leadership, an actual working plan to get civilians out of the way, and only then more widespread directed strikes on large numbers of Hamas.

[FBaggins]

103. Hamas has threatened those trying to heed the warning?

Doesn't that make it even clearer who is to blame when these human shields get harmed?

As I've posted a bunch of times here - this isn't the first war in history. People leaving on foot or with makeshift carts is the norm for running away from conflict areas. They may not be able to get out of Gaza, but they can get away from the area where the IDF says that they're attacking.

The incoming army has a duty to warn the civilian population to flee and the defending army has a duty to get them out. Only one side is fulfilling their duty in this regard. Trying to make them stay compounds their already massive culpability for the coming suffering.


carpet bombing is not the answer

Perhaps you're new to this conflict. The IDF's tactics historically have been as far from carpet bombing as is possible.

[hlthe2b]

104. First, I have repeatedly and you have ZERO reason to claim I am doing anything but blaming Hamas

That is so intentionally deceptive that I am done with you. I do not interact with those who intentionally try to reframe comments to create something they can argue against and that is exactly what you have done.

And yes, you know nothing. You have overwhelmingly proven so. IGNORE

[FBaggins]

105. I think you're incorrectly comingling a debate you had with others and this thread

I have nowhere claimed that you were pro Hamas... I merely replied to your comment on what I said.

Hamas had/has both a moral and laws-of-war obligation to keep their military forces away from their civilian population (a moral obligation that they have ignored for decades) and the connected obligation to remove their civilians from the combat area (particularly when the enemy - at their own increased risk - tells you where they will be attacking).

The attacking forces have to do what they can to warn the civilian population and (assuming they can't all get out) to avoid excess civilian impact if they can. What they do not have an obligation to do is allow the use of human shields to protect the enemy.

As I said elsewhere - if you are a legitimate military target - there is no number of human shields that you can cowardly pile in front of you that transfers the moral culpability for their suffering onto the other side.

[LiberalArkie]

79. Once the IDF has leveled all of Gaza and removed all the debris, then the problem of

where to put the new settlements is solved. And beach front settlements also.

[orangecrush]

88. Someone mentioned the hostages

And that IDF might be hoping forcing Hamas to move with the civilian population might force them to expose them.

I am nothing more than an armchair "expert", but I believe Israel is going to refuse to negotiate anything with Hamas.

IDF no doubt knows Hamas will leave with the civilian population.

What the plan is is anybody's guess.

[totodeinhere]

102. Agreed. If my seven month old baby had been either murdered or taken hostage I would not

be as generous as the Israelis are. Yes innocent Palestinians will suffer but that situation is totally the responsibility of Hamas.