Both-siderism is alive and well

[PCIntern]

My last sentences here will give you, quite possibly, more realization than you may wish to know about those with whom the Israelis are dealing.

You know, I don’t see these war crimes posts about our enemies when America goes into foreign tumult. I see a lot of reasons why some of us do not wish to go to war: death and destruction, etc. but I don’t see protestations of the potential for us committing war crimes. And that’s not because we’re nice guys, it’s because if the Jews are fighting, then they are invariably committing war crimes because… They’re Jews, right?

Oh, and one more thing: the Israelis identified and apprehended Adolf Eichmann in South America and brought him to stand trial in Israel in a judicial proceeding. Now, if it were up to people seeking revenge, they would’ve tied him to stakes on the burning hot desert ground and flayed the skin off him millimeter by millimeter keeping him alive with IVs as long as possible so he could endure a tiny percentage of the pain of the 6,000,000+ deaths which he engineered. But no, they treated him humanely which was much more than he deserved.

We Jews follow the law wherever we can, and try to do the right thing whenever possible. Sometimes it’s not possible, and there is not a country with a military in existence, which has not done things to win a war either of its own, making or another’s. Try to remember that when you think about the fact that when the Israeli team was held captive in Munich during the Olympics, at least one of them was castrated while he was conscious and alive. This is the enemy. Tell me again about why our morality is in question constantly. There is not a screenwriter in Hollywood, who would not see to it that individual who perpetrated that horror is killed in a most ignominious fashion, and the audience would stand up and cheer, because that is the appropriate fate of the malignant sadist. I understand why someone would not appreciate or approve of that, but what if it were their wife, their daughter, their entire family, who had been mutilated and murdered most horribly, then unless you’re an emotionless individual, you would approve reflexively.

Or perhaps you’d stand on your “principles”. Who the hell knows?

[rsdsharp]

1. You've basically encapsulated the difference between revenge and justice.

[ExciteBike66]

2. I agree about the perpetrators...

They are legit military targets.

My problem is with people like President Herzog who says none of the 2 million gazans are innocent. I mean, half of them are kids...

[Lonestarblue]

5. Exactly.

The Israeli government knows that they will not root out HAMAS with massive attacks on Gaza because those fighters will not stand and fight. They will slink away through tunnels or embed themselves with families moving to the south so they can stay alive to fight another day. It would be far better to go after the funding for HAMAS and seen that it dries up.

[crickets]

16. 👆 This is an excellent idea.

It would be far better to go after the funding for HAMAS and seen that it dries up.

Choke their funds while hunting down the people actually responsible rather than bombing a trapped civilian population.

[RAB910]

3. Amnesty Internations and the UN don't agree with these claims

https://www.amnesty.org/en/location/middle-east-and-north-africa/israel-and-occupied-palestinian-territories/report-israel-and-occupied-palestinian-territories/#:~:text=Unlawful%20attacks%20and%20killings&text=According%20to%20the%20UN%2C%2049,the%20civilians%2C%20including%20eight%20children.


https://www.un.org/unispal/document/commission-of-inquiry-collecting-evidence-of-war-crimes-committed-by-all-sides-in-israel-and-occupied-palestinian-territories-since-7-october-2023/

[unblock]

4. i am not emotionless, but even if it was my family, i would not approve of improper punishment.

i would certainly *feel* rage and anger and the lust for revenge.

i would quite likely enjoy fantasizing about torture and death and vengeance.

but i would not *approve* of such actions, by myself or others.


as for the case at hand, hamas explicitly targeted non-military civilians at non-military locations. that's inexcusable, and israel has every right to bring hamas to justice and to end the threat to civilians.

i hope israel targets military objectives and hamas members and leaders specifically. i understand collateral damage, especially given that hamas uses civilians as cover. but i won't approve of targeting of civilians or torture no matter who does it.

[Lonestarblue]

6. Bringing HAMAS to justice is legitimate. Killing hundreds of thousands of families and children to

do it is not.

[ripcord]

8. But no one knows how they can do one without the other

So Israel will just have to be a perpetual victim of terror.

[PCIntern]

9. Eyeshadow But see...

That’s ok. Because Jews, who gave mankind so much, do not deserve shit. Not even a tiny strip of land which was essentially desert before they showed up to reclaim it after six million of their number had been liquidated. But God-forbid if any of the Holocaust perpetrators hadn’t received humane treatment, then the Jewish captors would have been just as bad, just as deserving of vilification as the Nazis. That’s the inescapable logic.

just in case.

[Happy Hoosier]

7. Israel has a right to defend itself...

… and in a war like the present one, civilians will die. Sometimes it can’t be avoided.

But there are things that can be avoided…

Like illegal settlements on the West Bank

Like extra-judicial executions of persons who are not clearly a threat

Like collective and associative punishments

Israel is about to do what must (IMO) be done. And innocents will suffer. But what they (and we) do next matters.

[PCIntern]

10. The West Bank settlements did not occur in a vacuum:

Israel was a constant victim of evil perpetrators crossing their borders and wreaking havoc in the kibbutzim, in the cities, and in the suburbs as well as the farms. The settlements acted as a post to let the parties know that they were undaunted in the government’s power And would not be compressed and destroyed by terrorism.

And imagine if they were a free press, access, and an Internet as the United States made the westward expansion. But there wasn’t: No war crimes there to be seen, the appropriation of Native American lands in appropriately, no massacres, no nothing. Hey. It’s America and we can do no wrong. But Israelis are guilty a priori.

[Happy Hoosier]

12. None of this happened in a Vacuum.

But if you're telling me that civilian settlements in the occupied territories are defensive, I have a very hard time buying that. The occupied West Bank is NOT Israel, and Israel has no right to colonize it.... would you agree with that?

If Israel feels the need to maintain military outposts there to ensure it's security, that would make sense. Israel has a right to act defensively... civilan settlements are NOT defensive.

And trying to use US Westernward expansion as a justification? C'mon.

First, there is a hundred between America's genocidal westward expansion and the Israeli expansion in to the West Bank

Second, I doubt you'll find anyone here who thinks what theU.S. did was okay. It wasn't.

But if you're going to sit there are try to defend everything Israel has done in this conflict, it'll be hard to take you seriously.

Israel, like the U.S. and basically every other country, has made many mistakes. 70 years of history tells us we don;t have it right yet.

And yes, a GREAT DEAL of blame rests on the shoulders of the Palestinianas and other Arab nations. If the Palestinians and Arab nations had accepted the initial partition proposal, perhaps we wouldn't be here. But here, we indeed, are.

[JohnSJ]

11. What pisses me off is Israel has been put into an untenable position by Hamas. It is damn if they

do, and damn if they don't.

I am pissed that Hamas has put Israel in the position of killing civilians when going after Hamas.

Far left groups accuse Israel of genocide, war crimes etc., but NEVER once mention that it is Hamas that explicitly calls for the extermination of ALL Jews. It is in the 1988 Hamas Covenant that was issued in 2017.

In the US, every Democratic administration since Carter has tried to achieve peace between Israel and the Palestinians, while every republican administration since Reagan has sabotaged those efforts. When Bill Clinton left office, he left a blueprint for negotiations between Israel and the Palestinians, and when bush took office, those objectives were thrown away, along with the warning from the commissioned Hart/Rudman report about the real threat of AQ and Islamic terrorism. Cheney arrogantly said they would do their own study, and promptly ignored the situation, until 9/11, where their actions allowed them to falsely claim that Iraq had WMDs, which involved us in destabilizing that whole region, and the balance of power, all for the bush administration's policy of "Nation Building" pushed by PNAC.

When Obama took office he worked to undo the damages done by the bush administration, and was successful both domestically, and internationally, rebuilding the respect that the U.S. had lost under the previous bush administration.

Unfortunately trump was elected in 2016, and worked to dismantle all the positive achievements by the Obama administration, both domestically and internationally, the world will be paying for that debacle years to come.

There is a difference between DEMOCRATS and republicans, and that isn't just bias on my part, but a FACT.

[Happy Hoosier]

21. Very true.

Unless one genuinely advocates for teh dossolutiobn of Israel (which, simply put, WIL NOT HAPPEN), Israel has a right, and even a responsibility to defend itself and it's citizens.

Putting aside what are (IMO) legitimate criticisms of how Israel has managed this conflict, the brutal attack by Hamas, targeting primarily civilians in Israel demands a response. More that that, it demands that Hamas be removed as the controlling authority of Gaza.

No question.

The attack can in NO WAY be seen as legitimate "resistance."

So, the desctuction of Hamas has to happen. If Israel doesn't do it, a murderous entitiy can declare victory.

But destroying Hamas in Gaza means that Israel must, necessarily, utterly devastate Gaza. And there's the rub

Hamas embeds itself, deliberately, in civilian concentrations, an dindeed, in normally protected civilian structure... apartment high-rises, hospitals, schools. And more than that, Hamas WANTS there to be massive civilan casualties. The horror of their initial attacks will fade as week after week, video and photos of children dead in the rubble are plastered all over media.

Even if Hamas' power is destoyed (which it will be), Another generation of Palestinians will be radicalized. And some segment of the world's population will have forgotten the horror of 10/7 and will remember the horror of what's about to happen.

It's a complete shit sandwhich for Israel.

Israel can MAYBE come out ahead, if, after crushing Hamas, they all, or even facilitate and support, a massive humanitarian reconstructin in Gaza. There is a chance to to change the course of this conflict. But it will take a lot.

[inthewind21]

22. People right

here in the US, American citizens, hold rallies and call for the extermination of Jews and whole host of other hateful shit. Some have fire bombed and shot up Synagogues killing many. There have been 2 just this year. And that shit happens ALL OVER the world. Because, there are a whole lot of hateful, twisted lunatics in this world willing to commit evil vile atrocities. But you already know that.

Hamas is a terrorist group, key word there is terrorist, splintered off from the Muslim Brotherhood. They are ruthless brutal psychopaths that will do whatever to further their agenda like all terrorists groups. The world is well versed on how terrorists operate. Or should be.

Israel cozying up to Hamas because they were more friendly to the Israeli agenda than the Palestinian Authority has proved to be as big of a mistake as it was for the US to back, arm and train "rebel fighters" against the Russians in Afghanistan which resulted in the creation of Al Queda. Israel will NOT destroy Hamas with tanks and bombs rolling through the streets of Gaza. Because like every other terrorist group, for every one killed, there will be 5 more lined up to take their place plus another 5 newly created. Hamas does not care about the civilians of Gaza. They only care about their intended goal. Civilians are merely a tool in their plan. I believe the goal was to provoke a specific reaction. Very much like the US reaction after 9/11. One that will cause a LOT of discord, division and horror across the globe. And it's looking like they will be getting EXACTLY what they hoped for.

The US spent 20 years and trillions of dollars and killed hundreds of thousands of civilians and thousands of soldiers in "The war against terrorism." How'd that work out on "destroying" terrorist groups?

[DemocraticPatriot]

13. I mourn for the innocent civilian casualties on both sides...

That is all.

[LexVegas]

14. The blame Israel first brigade is the result of 2k years of indoctrinated hatred. nt

[MadameButterfly]

15. comparing all Palestinians to Hamas

and the terrorist acts you describe is like comparing all Americans to the KuKlux Klan and their lynchings, murder of Freedom Riders, etc.

Those of us who object to painting all Palestians with the same brush, and getting revenge on Hamas by killing children (and the Israeli hostages along with them), are not taking this position because Jews are involved.

Frankly, the antisemites in this country these days are all in for supporting Israel's most aggressive response.

[PCIntern]

17. The word "all" is not in my lexicon:

I am not a potted plant, and I fully understand that there are many Palestinian civilians in Israel and associated territories who have no interest in destroying Israel or killing Jews. All they want to do is live the same way you and I just want to live.

And that’s lovely… But, and it’s a big but, it doesn’t matter what they think to their own leaders, and the Hamas terrorists have put them in their untenable position. I grieve for mankind in general, but this is what has been going on since the dawn of man. Nothing, and I mean nothing will change this for millennia to come.

[MadameButterfly]

19. you do makes comparisons though

And I reject that we don't complain when America is involved in atrocities abroad, even responding to enemies.

i agree that the leaders are the problem. It has been like this for millenia but humankind has made some efforts to improve that in recent years. There was a time when this was considered noramal.So I continue to hope for a better future.

I didn't mean in my disagreement on some points to imply that you were a potted plant

[Jedi Guy]

18. "This is the enemy."

I think this is what people somehow, inexplicably, don't get. Hamas, Hezbollah, Islamic Jihad, etc., are all predicated on a single idea: the total and utter destruction of the State of Israel, the slaughter and scattering of its inhabitants, the rape and mutilation of its women and children.

How do you negotiate with people like that? Do you come to the table and meekly ask that they only destroy half of your country, slaughter half of your people, rape and defile only half of your women and children? And if not half, perhaps 40%? Do I hear 30%?

The answer, of course, is that you can't negotiate with people like that. There is no common ground to be found there. There's only survival or destruction. Hamas and its fellow travelers won't stop, won't relent, won't ever negotiate in good faith, and even if they did, they would break their word at the first opportunity and go back to killing Jews.

Hamas officials have repeatedly said, "We love death as you love life." They are willing to sacrifice their women, their children, their elderly, they're willing to embrace death with a smile on their face if only they can kill a few Jews on their way out. That's who Hamas is and that's what they do.

So Israel's only course here is to destroy Hamas, root and branch. That's it and that's all, and it sure looks like that's exactly what Israel intends to do.

[PCIntern]

24. Yes: you cannot coexist with an entity which is

Committed to end your existence.

[H2O Man]

20. Recommended.

I believe in the right to resort to violence in self-defense, and that certainly applies here. I have yet to see any alternative being put forward. I have seen the hatred of Judaism rising. This concerns me. Thay doesn't mean I am not converned about any of the innocents being killed, or think this attack on Gaza will end the cycle of violence. But I see attempts to justify the savage attacks on Jews as repulsive.

[treestar]

23. you've taken a side

not everyone does. This is a far away conflict, a lot of us don't belong to either group by descent or anything else. It's been going on forever. Both sides complain of atrocities from the other. Some of us just want all of them to stop. No, they can't "destroy" Israel, any more than the US could be "destroyed" by 911.

Are terrorists criminals or state actors that can declare war?

[Hekate]

25. KnR for you, PCI