MSNBC Breaking News: The deadline to evacuate Gaza has passed.

[ancianita]

1. This was the report this AM:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/13/israel-hamas-war-latest-gaza-residents-told-move-ground-assault


2. The OP header is MSNBC'S chyron now, at 5:20 PM.

3. A report from one hour ago:

https://www.newsandsentinel.com/news/local-news/2023/10/palestinians-flee-northern-gaza-after-told-to-evacuate/

JERUSALEM (AP) — Palestinians fled in a mass exodus from northern Gaza Friday after Israel’s military told some 1 million people to evacuate toward the southern part of the besieged territory, an unprecedented order ahead of an expected ground invasion against the ruling Hamas militant group.

The U.N. warned that telling almost half the Gaza population to flee en masse would be calamitous, and it urged Israel to reverse the order. Families in cars, trucks and donkey carts packed with blankets and possessions streamed down a main road out of Gaza City, the biggest city, as airstrikes continued to hammer the territory.

Hamas’ media office said warplanes struck cars fleeing south, killing more than 70 people. Israel’s military said that its troops had entered Gaza on temporary raids to battle militants and hunt for traces of some 150 people abducted in Hamas’ brutal surprise attack nearly a week ago.

Hamas told people to ignore the evacuation order, but some Palestinians hesitated to leave out of fear that nowhere was safe in the tiny territory...

Pressed by reporters on whether the army would protect hospitals, U.N. shelters and other civilian locations, Hagari, the Israeli military spokesperson, warned, “It’s a war zone.”

Hagari added: “If Hamas prevents residents from evacuating, the responsibility lies with them.” The U.N. had said the evacuation order it received gave Palestinians 24 hours to move, but the military told the AP there was no formal deadline.

Jan Egeland, secretary-general of the Norwegian Refugee Council and a former U.N. humanitarian chief, said the evacuation call was “an order to relocate. Under humanitarian law, it’s called forcible transfer of populations, and it’s a war crime.”

And from Stars and Stripes:
https://www.stripes.com/theaters/middle_east/2023-10-13/palestinians-fleeing-northern-gaza-strip-11693190.html


To all those who are running as far away as they can from Hamas, Godspeed.

[claudette]

1. They are running away

from Israeli weapons supplied by the USA

[LexVegas]

3. Oohhh. Blame Israel and America. Novel. nt

[NoRethugFriends]

5. Any idea who supplied Hamas, who were the ones who started this round?

Pretty damn disingenuous.

[mzmolly]

25. Good question.

eom

[BannonsLiver]

10. "America baaaaaaad"

With apologies to Phil Hartman.

[GuppyGal]

17. What is your point?

[claudette]

36. The post

Said they are running away from Hamas. That isn’t the fact

[GuppyGal]

39. I don't see anywhere where the post says they are running from Hamas...

but I'm working 60+ hour weeks and I'm tired.

[claudette]

40. Last sentence says. And I quote

“ To all those who are running as far away as they can from Hamas, Godspeed.”

[GuppyGal]

41. I told you I was tired LOL nt

[claudette]

42. No problem

😊

[mzmolly]

24. I'm glad they had some warning.

Sad situation all around, however.

[SickOfTheOnePct]

2. Interesting

It’s a war crime to tell them to flee to safety, but it’s also a war crime if Israel bombs while they’re there.

Cute way for Jan Egeland to say that Israel should do nothing.

[ancianita]

4. War is so fluid, and truth is the first casualty.

[MyNameIsJonas]

14. Some here would be perfectly okay if Israel did nothing.

I guess they're just supposed to shrug at Hamas' terrorism and then cross their fingers Hamas doesn't do it again and on a much larger scale.

[SickOfTheOnePct]

15. Yep n/t

[RocRizzo55]

16. NO

They are not supposed to eradicate EVERYONE, every child, every senior citizen, every working person, every doctor from the West Bank, which is what they are planning on doing. They could go into the effected area and look for the people responsible instead of wholesale killing of everyone, and destruction of everything.

[boston bean]

18. I am pretty sure that Israel is not going to kill 2M people.

[RocRizzo55]

46. I wouldn't

Put it past them.

[MyNameIsJonas]

19. Are you listening to yourself?

C'mon!

Go in and look for the people who are responsible? And how do you expect to know who is and isn't a potential terrorist?

Let's be serious here. Hamas continues to attack and hold hostages. They're solely responsible for what is to come. There is no middle ground and even marginally shifting the blame to Israel is appeasing Hamas.

[RocRizzo55]

44. So then

Just kill everyone? Not a good answer.

[sarisataka]

21. Can you tell us

Who is your inside contact in the IDF to have such sensitive information about Israeli war plans?

Or do we have to wait for the book?

[RocRizzo55]

45. Why else

Would they be telling people to evacuate. Give me a freakin break.

[claudette]

37. Exactly

Covert operations will get the REAL culprits. Not bombing innocents and destroying their land to rubble

[maxsolomon]

22. "Some here". OK, 158 posts.

I see you, Jonas.

[MyNameIsJonas]

32. Weird. Did you just arrive here with 31,000 posts?

[maxsolomon]

33. You arrived in August. A bit recent to be stirring shit

with straw man accusations.

You're welcome to see how long I've been here.

[MyNameIsJonas]

34. Pointing out the obvious is not shit-stirring.

It doesn't take 31,000 posts and years of posting here to see that a handful seem to think exactly like I said they do - and don't assume I'm new here.

[marybourg]

6. If the U.S. had warned the citizens of Hiroshima and Nagasaki

to evacuate the cities prior to dropping the atomic bombs in order to save their lives while still demonstrating the US atomic might, that would be “forcible transfer of population” and a war crime? Whereas, instead . . .

[ancianita]

7. The Geneva Convention didn't exist then. But neither did I. I'll have to look up what she's

referring to because I don't know what international rule her quote is connected to..

[marybourg]

11. The Geneva Conventions

Geneva Conventions | International Humanitarian Law ...
The Geneva Conventions are a series of international treaties concluded in Geneva between 1864 and 1949. Two additional protocols to the 1949 agreement were approved

Forcible transfer of populations is very different from telling people to temporarily evacuate for their own safety.

[ancianita]

12. Nice. This proves she's wrong.

The fog of war gets a little clearer.

Evacuating 12 miles south inside Gaza is a logistical nightmare -- not to mention how Hamas shot at them -- but I hope most of the evacuees managed to get that far.

[EX500rider]

27. The US did exactly that:

Wording on the fliers dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki:

Read this carefully as it may save your life or the life of a relative or friend.

In the next few days, some or all of the cities named on the reverse side will be destroyed by American bombs. These cities contain military installations and workshops or factories which produce military goods.

We are determined to destroy all of the tools of the military clique which they are using to prolong this useless war. But, unfortunately, bombs have no eyes. So, in accordance with America's humanitarian policies, the American Air Force, which does not wish to injure innocent people, now gives you warning to evacuate the cities named and save your lives.

America is not fighting the Japanese people but is fighting the military clique which has enslaved the Japanese people.

The peace which America will bring will free the people from the oppression of the military clique and mean the emergence of a new and better Japan. You can restore peace by demanding new and good leaders who will end the war. We cannot promise that only these cities will be among those attacked but some or all of them will be, so heed this warning and evacuate these cities immediately.

[marybourg]

35. And did that cause them to be accused of

“ forcible transfer of population”?

I notice Hamas, who forcibly transferred 150 hostages to Gaza, was not accused by the humanitarian official of “forcible transfer of population”.

[claudette]

38. The US didn't

steal the land from Japan

[marybourg]

43. Oh, I see. Another historian.

[elleng]

8. 'The U.N. warned that telling almost half the Gaza population to flee en masse would be calamitous,'

[ancianita]

9. Yes, then afterward, fwiw, the U.N. managed to move its own headquarters & personnel to south Gaza.

[ancianita]

13. Map from the NYT:

https://www.nytimes.com/live/2023/10/13/world/israel-news-gaza-hamas-war

[FakeNoose]

20. Gaza is a textbook example of apartheid, and Israel shares some of the blame

Last edited Fri Oct 13, 2023, 08:24 PM - Edit history (1)

https://imgur.com/qwJg55O

(click on the bell for narration and sound.)

This video was shared on Imgur recently, but it was created by a news agency.

The blame for this is partly on Israel, but it's also on the surrounding Muslim/Arab countries that have made no effort to ameliorate it for the last 75 years. The Saudis have done nothing, The Egyptians have done nothing. Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, they've all done nothing to create peace or to find a workable solution for the Palestinians.

Israel at least tried to find peaceful solutions, but to no avail. That's because the goal of the Muslims/Arabs has always been to keep the Palestinians angry and ready to revolt. So here we are.

[ancianita]

23. Agree. It got hardened because of years of Israeli deaths from Gaza rocket fire. "Some" is fair,

since most Arab nations' Muslim brothers have treated Palestinians as not worth any donated land for their own nation, and as proxies in their war against Jews and the West.


History that I've come across (don't remember where, but it made me go 'hm' at the time) is that Palestinians have been asked if they want a two state solution, and refused both times. I've read that Palestine and the Arab world lived in more or less peaceful coexistence with Jews before Israel was established. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_modern_conflicts_in_the_Middle_East

This war is complicated by the fact that a whole generation of Palestinians exist who've had no say in events they might or might not have heard of. Traumatized orphans need protection, and the unarmed among them are on the run, traumatized again.

And so have been Israeli children.

[Grown2Hate]

26. Can I ask a serious question?

I feel like EVERYTHING needs to be prefaced with A) I'm against Hamas, B) not all Palestinians are Hamas, C) this entire situation is unbelievably horrible and impossible, and D) Israel has a right to defend itself.

With that out of the way, what does this accomplish? You tell EVERYONE to evacuate, not just the Palestinians that aren't Hamas. So, then you just bomb buildings? I doubt Hamas is hanging around that area if EVERYONE knows to evacuate. I'm not criticizing; I just think I'm missing the point. Destroying infrastructure for Hamas maybe?

[EX500rider]

28. I believe the IDF intends to cross the border in force & destroy Hamas infrastructure, tunnels etc

[ancianita]

29. Of course! We AND Biden agree that everything should be prefaced with your statements. Fair.

"With that out of the way," here's the thing it accomplishes ( I see EX got there first ):
Israel knows of the 300+ miles of tunnels under Gaza. It knows that Hamas keeps water, food, weapons and supplies there. Sure, Hamas could be evacuating themselves to south Gaza. Or not.

Destroying the tunnels in the north isn't a bad idea, no matter how many or few Hamas are killed by IDF. This cleaning Hamas out of Gaza and shutting down its tunnel system is going to be a protracted period where Hezbollah gets more mobilized, and Israel knows it.

The geopolitical problem for Israel is that it was about to form a deal with Saudi Arabia, and the Shia/Russia part of the world doesn't want that.

Again, this will be a war that continues into and maybe beyond next year. Lots of suffering and death. Lots of lies. We can't second guess anything, because we haven't suffered the cross generational trauma both sides have suffered.

We have to try to go with what helps Israel survive and what saves non-Hamas Palestinians, even if they feel they have been treated unequally and unfairly by Israel. Bottom line, Palestine must be treated better by the Arab nations, not just Israel, so that they don't get duped into being tools, and blaming all their decades long plight on Israel. Arab nations might just have to go back to their sunni/shia sectarian negotiations -- and actually create a two-state solution themselves -- because Biden's not giving up on Israel's right to exist.

Biden's got the intel, international trust, moral compass, focus, wisdom, and resolve to do what's best for Israel and the West.

We can hand wring, but I'd rather listen to Biden, Austin and Blinken, then watch what they do.

[Grown2Hate]

30. Gotcha. And thank you for the well

thought-out response! Helps me understand a little better.

[ancianita]

31. Welcome! But seriously,I'm just trying to make sense of the micro and macro like you & everyone else