Chris Hedges - This Way for the Genocide, Ladies and Gentlemen

[RocRizzo55]

https://open.substack.com/pub/chrishedges/p/this-way-for-the-genocide-ladies?r=1eq7j4&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=web

I have been in urban warfare in El Salvador, Iraq, Gaza, Bosnia and Kosovo. Once you fight street by street, apartment block by apartment block, there is only one rule — kill anything that moves. The talk of safe zones, the reassurances of protecting civilians, the promises of “surgical” and “targeted” air strikes, the establishment of “safe” evacuation routes, the fatuous explanation that civilian dead were “caught in the crossfire,” the claim that the homes and apartment buildings bombed into rubble were the abode of terrorists or that errant Hamas rockets were responsible for the destruction of schools and medical clinics, is part of the rhetorical cover to carry out indiscriminate slaughter

[SickOfTheOnePct]

1. Which is why civilians

I ere told they should leave.

[Big Blue Marble]

2. Leave to where?

And what would be their fact if they do. Israel will not let them back?
Their homes will be gone.

[SickOfTheOnePct]

6. Leave to the south

Out of the city.


It seems that to many, Israel isn’t supposed to do anything to root out Hamas.

“Relax and enjoy it” seems to be the only option Israel should consider.

[RocRizzo55]

13. Repeating the Zionist propaganda

Will not convince those of us who see that both sides are wrong.

[PCIntern]

15. "Both sides are wrong"

I don’t think so.

[Calculating]

18. Both sides aren't wrong though

Imo Israel has a right to solve this problem for good. The Palestinians lost the right to live near them by supporting Hamas.

[Lonestarblue]

35. In a recent poll reported by Nicholas Kristof in the NYT today, 70% of Palestinians in Gaza do not

support HAMAS. But all people in Gaza deserve to be massacred because they have been forced to live with terrorists. It is HAMAS that is armed. And when solving the problem for good means the death of the 2+ million Palestinians, including the babies and children who are half the population, that is an acceptable outcome? Not to me.

[Calculating]

41. They don't all need to die

They certainly can't live next to Israel anymore after this, they need to go somewhere, anywhere else.

[prodigitalson]

47. you are suggesting an "ethnic cleansing"

I support Israels right to defend itself by destroying Hamas, even though the loss of civilian life will be high. I think that bandaid has tp be ripped off. But you are literally advocating a crime against humanity

[Calculating]

49. Well what do you do when two groups literally want each other dead?

Maybe they shouldn't be living right next to each other

[prodigitalson]

50. Rip out Hamas root and branch

start rebuilding the place and make it liveable

A massive international effort to raise living standards and keep out the crazies - with a pathway to a two state solution.

[EndlessWire]

101. I'm in favor of Israel in this mess.

Hamas has got to go. That political ideology that says that all Jews must die is what has got to go. No one is saying that these people have got to like or love each other, but they do have to have a peaceful solution.

Chasing off a whole population is not the answer. A THREE state national division is the answer. Any further attacks on Israel will probably be the last. I say that because when Hamas is allowed to live and regroup for another day, this will happen again. Anyone who can kill infants like that are NOT human, but beastly. Anyone who can kill unarmed civilians who are not doing a damned thing to them will do it again.

Israel has the right to defend itself. The civilian population has been advised of where to go to have a relative chance to avoid death. While I see that the UN was told 24 hours, the population did not have such a deadline. The intent is not to annihilate anyone who isn't a Jew, but to wipe out Hamas. If Hamas runs their government, then that's a big problem.

I know this is a stretch, but I can't help but think that these people would be better off if Israel wipes out Hamas. Let Hamas be ended, then get the UN advisors in there to help them rapidly form their own nation.

Israel doesn't seem to be using this area, anyway. Why hold onto it if you can get a peaceful, equal neighbor who is not intent on killing you? Same with the West Bank.

I don't think that displacing one population in favor of another is the answer. The answer is getting rid of this terrorist group running their government. Then, stay quiet so hearts can heal.

[AloeVera]

129. how many dead Palestinians

How many is acceptable to you? For every Israeli killed in the last 15 years, 23 Palestinians have been killed. So is 23,000 dead Gazans acceptable to you? Israel's response is always disproportionate. Now, it will be horrific. I dont know how that is acceptable to anyone.

[RocRizzo55]

170. Didn't Bibi say

That he wants ALL the Palestinians dead? I have heard other Zionists say this.

[AloeVera]

173. Inhumanity.

Yes, he invoked Amalek.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.livemint.com/news/world/pm-netanyahu-invokes-amalek-theory-to-justify-gaza-killings-what-is-this-hebrew-bible-nation/amp-11698555324918.html

You must remember what Amalek has done to you, says our Holy Bible. 1 Samuel 15:3 ‘Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass’," Netanyahu said.

I'm sure he and others have said as much elsewhere but this was recent and brazen even for him.

Yet so many still deny and ridicule accusations of genocide.

It's highly likely we are already beyond the 1:23 ratio I mentioned. Deaths are likely undercounted, do not include those buried under rubble or lying in the streets and houses of North Gaza. Three hundred air strikes in the last 24 hours there. No hospitals or ambulances so how are those people being helped and who is counting their deaths?

The inhumanity is sickening.

[Arazi]

48. Good thing Israel gave them warnings and enough time to get out of the way

The Palestinians will rejoice that Israel ensured the civilians could evacuate and they’ll be pretty happy their evil overlords are getting blown to smithereens right?

You’re happy right?

Win win for everyone? Israel gave notice so civilians could get out of the way and Hamas can finally be obliterated

[womanofthehills]

136. You have to be kidding- have you seen the videos?

Netanyahu has bombed the schools, mosques, UN buildings, Red Cross workers & vehicles, markets, ambulances, apartment buildings, people running on streets, people trying to get to Egyptian border - and mostly bombed the women, children and babies. Just go over to TicToc - type in “injured Gaza babies “ & you will see hundreds of videos of bombed injured hysterical children that will make you sob -

[AloeVera]

175. Good sarcasm.

Is this some type of black humour? Sarcasm? Willful ignorance of reality? Credulity of bad propaganda? Disregard for the tens of thousands killed or maimed? An example of not believing your lying eyes?

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and call it an attempt at sarcasm.

[Arazi]

176. Nope. 100% serious

[AloeVera]

117. Thank you

This is my first reply on DU as I have just joined. I hope I will not be banned for speaking my mind here though my opinion seems to be unpopular here. Your response is one of the few I have seen here that reflects concern for the Palestinians' lives. I am aghast and sick to my stomach at the facile responses here in regards to the fate of the 2+ million civilians as well as the ignorance of their ongoing plight and oppression.

I have lurked on DU for years and years and consider it my first source of information on U.S. politics. I had agreed with most of the thinking and views of people here. DU was my refuge, where I could find solace and comfort in the face of the madness of Trumpism.

Now I just don't know if this really is my tribe or some alien species masquerading as such. I don't recognize posters I have admired for a long time. I am heartbroken.

Thank you again. I wholeheartedly agree!

[NewHendoLib]

122. Well stated and welcome to DU

[Earth-shine]

148. You haven't seen a Democratic Party primary as manifested on DU.

How quickly we lose our unity, here.

[wnylib]

165. Bit of hyperbole there.

All the Palestinians are not being massacred.

Nobody is killing 2+ million Palestinians.

When you talk like that, you won't persuade people to anything other than 1) applause from those who already agree with you, or, 2) opposition from people who see the obvious inaccuracy in your statement.

If you object to Israel going after Hamas, then just say so. Just say that you don't believe that eliminating Hamas is worth the damage to Palestinian lives and property that is a result of the Israeli war against Hamas.

If you believe that it's better to leave Hamas in charge in Gaza, just say so.

You need to use persuasive facts, not hyperbole that is transparently false.

You already have a credibility problem with me because you are siding with Chris Hedges, who calls himself a socialist and an anarchist. I see no value in pure socialism, which does not work in reality. Some socialist programs are effective and good for a society, but not 100% pure socialism. As for anarchy, it is so opposite of socialism (and democracy and civilization) that I don't see how one person can reconcile both in his beliefs.

Take time to think about that, or ignore it if you want. I just wanted to pass it along to you. Your hyperbole tells me that you are not someone to hold an ongoing conversation with, so I am moving on.

[RocRizzo55]

172. Israel could have prevented this

By abiding to the agreements they made with the Palestinians instead of building settlements where they agreed not to.

[McKim]

23. There is no "out of the city!

There is no out of the city. Gaza is one big dense city.

[Arazi]

24. They've had almost 48 hours to move 12 miles south

The farthest north people had 12 miles to go. Most folks are far closer to the southerly demarcation line.

That’s about a 4-5 hour walk for healthy people.

The rest have now had a couple days to walk, ride, or be driven south to safety.

[AloeVera]

130. Really

Hungry, thirsty, terrified and terrorized people are to walk 12 miles on roads reduced to rubble while warplanes are screaming above their heads. And you think there is no problem with that. Easy peasy.

Our problem here is lack of empathy for people whose suffering we can't begin to imagine.

[William769]

131. Like the 900 plus people killed days ago.

[AloeVera]

132. No selective empathy here

You should be able to express concern for the Palestinians facing imminent threat without being accused of not caring for the 900 plus dead Israelis. It seems to me that is a pretty tribal mentality of you're either with us or against us. GWB was famous for that and look where that led to.

[GP6971]

133. Really?

Welcome to DU...I guess.

[AloeVera]

134. Thanks for the Warm Welcome

I think you just proved my point. Those of us who dare to support Palestinians are not welcome here.

[GP6971]

135. Not at all.

You need to tone it down a bit. You joined at at a very tumultuous time. DU is very divided on this issue. Tempers are rising...many members are trashing the threads because they're becoming such train wrecks.

[AloeVera]

140. Thanks

Ok thank you. I appreciate the advice. I will try. My nerves are frayed too for the last week so I get it. But thanks for taking the time.

[Celerity]

151. yes, walking 4 or 5 miles in northern Gaza now is just like a Sunday stroll from South Kensington to

St. Paul's in London.



These pics of Rimal (a major neighbourhood and thruway in Gaza City) are from Tuesday, 5 days ago

Pro tip: it has not improved over the past 5 days of bombing

(Israel is pulverising Gaza in a 24 hour period with more ordinance than the US used in all of Afghanistan in the last YEAR of our presence there, per MSNBC)

[AloeVera]

159. My God. Horrific.

[Act_of_Reparation]

155. Just that simple, huh?

Interesting.

[RocRizzo55]

174. I'm sorry

But even when I was healthy, I could barely walk 12 miles in one day.

[sarisataka]

25. Factually incorrect

You can verify through Google maps that there are multiple cities and communities along with rural areas.

[SickOfTheOnePct]

31. Untrue n/t

[EX500rider]

36. And yet it has countryside

All the white areas are outside the city/urban area. You might want to look into things before making statements like that.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

42. Absolutely! Just take the kids and the pop-up camper! Make a mini vacation out of it!

[EX500rider]

44. Or stay in a urban area currently being bombed and about to be invaded, not a hard call

[RANDYWILDMAN]

147. maybe they could work on a two state solution

but they don't want one, unless they make all the rules and get to keep their settlements and control the borders and you get the picture...

[RocRizzo55]

171. What

So that they could get killed on their way there, or make it easier for IDF to kill more of them per bomb, when they are all in the North?

[RocRizzo55]

3. You didn't read

the article, did you?

[Big Blue Marble]

5. I did not.

I am closely follow the developing situation in Gaza and know well the history of these people
who are all ready forced to live in refugee camps.

[SickOfTheOnePct]

8. I don't normally waste my time

With terrorists propaganda. And any article with the premise that Israel is planning genocide is just that- terrorists propaganda.

[RocRizzo55]

10. So you are saying that

Chris Hedges is a terrorist propagandist?
I can tell that you have not read any of his writings, otherwise you would know otherwise.

[SickOfTheOnePct]

16. The first paragraph

I read showed me that this article is, IMO, anti-Israel, terrorist propaganda. So if the shoe fits…

[Big Blue Marble]

20. I have read it now.

I still feel the same way.

[EndlessWire]

103. I tried to read the article

but eventually it greyed out because I refused to sign up. So, I gave up.

[womanofthehills]

99. Leave to where

They are fenced in.

[SickOfTheOnePct]

100. They are not fenced

In Gaza City - they could have moved south, and many have.

[womanofthehills]

137. Sure - I see mothers walking carrying babies and guiding crying children

Are they also supposed to be carrying food and water besides their babies? Fuel is low as it’s been cut off. When they get south, are the mothers and babies just supposed to sleep in the dirt? Where will they get food? Clean water?

What about all the children who are burned and have lost limbs and the preemie babies in the hospital who have to be evacuated? Where are they going or will they just be bombed a second time? You know the whole world has seen the videos of these bombed children. It’s not going to be good.

Peace

Link to tweet

?s=46&t=YZgyyp4w_z7vW3neKxa6cQl

[Happy Hoosier]

4. Just a reminder...

That Hamas’ policy is to wipe Israel off the map. How’s that for a little genocide?

[Big Blue Marble]

9. You are rationalizing genocide of millions

including a million children. We all know that Israel and the US will already protect the
Israeli people. At this time, the genocide in Gaza has begun before our eyes.

[TexasDem69]

17. Protect the Israeli people how?

What do you propose Israel do in response to an attack that killed over 1,000 citizens, including folks at a concert, civilians in their houses, etc.? Should they do nothing? What about the children who are hostages, should they leave them in the hands of terrorists?

[Big Blue Marble]

26. How are you so comfortable with wanton killing of innocent children by the 1000's?

!00.000's of thousands are at risk for dying. 100.000's more will simply have their lives and futures destroyed.

I grieve for you, if you have no dissonance of the immortality of this situation.
Killing innocents is not justified by the killing of innocents ever.

You are accepting that the most violence response is the only option. You are dooming
the human race to its worst instincts. Are we not better than that? Apparently you do not think so.

[Calculating]

27. Sometimes Innocents are killed to stop more killing in the future

You know, like when we dropped abombs in Japan in WW2 to end the fight.

[Duncan Grant]

51. We should ask the Japanese for their point of view.

There’s more I’d like to say but it’s pointless. Few are listening.

[SickOfTheOnePct]

70. I don't really care

About the Japanese point of view. They attacked us, and even when it was clear they couldn’t win, they continued to fight.

If it took to A-bombs to end it and save American and Allied lives, so be it.

[Duncan Grant]

93. You can lead a horse to water...

Do it your way. Better people will address the consequences.

[BannonsLiver]

114. They also saved quite a few Japanese lives as well.

But revisionists always reject that point. We unfortunately have some who view Japan and Germany as victims during WW2.

[womanofthehills]

139. You mean the leaders of the country attached

Not the innocent school girls who were all killed. Most people in all countries are good people - it’s the psychopathic leaders.

[SickOfTheOnePct]

144. Whatever

It ended the war, so it was worth it

[Straw Man]

150. I'll tell you what.

Create a bomb that kills only psychopathic leaders. Problem solved.

Israel has every right to defend itself. Hamas created this war. They are using the Palestinian people as human shields. Any Palestinian deaths are on their heads.

[Zeitghost]

125. The Germans and Japanese

Are both far better off now than they were 80-90 years ago. It took violence to end Hitler and the 3rd Reich, it took violence to stop Tojo and Japan and it will take violence to stop Hamas.

[womanofthehills]

116. There weren't cell phones then to capture all the horrific child deaths

We just have a few images - mostly groups of people running or dead -fuzzy black & white images. Now we have high definition images/videos of hundreds of injured, dying and dead children. Children speaking about watching their siblings & parents die with uncontrollable shaking -HUGE difference. This is going to make people angry and many will probable want to blow things up. The world is now more scary than any time in history. We know every big city in the world is on high alert. We now have billions at pro Palestine rallies in most countries around the world - billions of people at rallies who have seen images of hundreds of dead & injured children. I was over on TicToc and can’t get these innocent suffering kids out of my mind. Millions of American kids seeing these images and thousands of young kids posting they want to take care of the Palestine children. This will insight hate forever. Netanyahu is a right wing stupid eviil man -he is putting all innocent Jews lives at risk too. We now have billions of angry people.

Check out the millions at world pro Palestine rally’s.

https://www.tiktok.com/t/ZT8h24Qyp/

[AloeVera]

128. Gen Z gets it on TikTok

Gen Z is getting an education on TikTok and from what I see they are not on the side of Israel. Like the boomers in their youth, they have moral clarity on wars, occupation and injustice. This "war" is going to create more terrorists and make the world less safe, similar to the Iraqi war. People need to understand the precursors of terrorism, the big one being the slaughter of innocents. Similar to the emotions evoked by the slaughter of Israeli children by Hamas, whereby a whole nation is now committing what some consider state-sponsored terrorism and war crimes. I will probably get banned now - and I've just joined today!

[TexasDem69]

33. Answer the question

What should Israel do? I support Israel’s right to defend itself against these terrorist attacks and to attempt to eliminate the right to future attacks.

[Big Blue Marble]

46. How many dead children are you comfortable with?

Can you not acknowledge the immorality of what Israel is doing to these children of Gaza?

[TexasDem69]

54. How are Israel protecting its citizens

And attempting to eliminate future threats immoral?

[Big Blue Marble]

82. How many Palestinian children starving and dying are you comfortable with?

75 years of violent responses have only enriched the military industrial complex. Why
is this violent assault going to change the narrative?

You will watch many die over the next weeks. You get to live with your moral certainty.
You ae part of the problem, not part of the solution to human peace.

[Happy Hoosier]

60. Why won't you answer the question?

I think I know: you don’t have an alternative. Tou think Israel should do nothing.

And to be clear, I acknowledge that many innocents, including children, are going to die because Hamas must be uprooted from Gaza.

[Big Blue Marble]

77. Killing innocent people is wrong period. And you are not a mind reader.

It is violation of international law to kill civilians. Civilized societies are not suppose to act like
primitives.

Israel needs to start with that premise. It is wrong to kill civilians in Israel. It is wrong to
kill civilians in Gaza. You choose to justify the horror of second wrong, with horror of the first wrong.

Of course, it is expedient to just start bombing as a reaction to brutal violence regardless of the consequences
To have taken longer to protect the people of Gaza would have not cost Israel anything prior to attacking Hamas
as they had no where to go.

What you will not acknowledge is that this is as much about revenge and blood lust against these hapless
people as it a defense against the terrorists. Many in Israel do want ethic cleansing of the Palestinians,
and frighteningly, those on the far right in the government end the body politic support genocide
if they are not forced out. They have stated as much. Do you support those policies? Because that is
what is beginning before our eyes.

[ripcord]

85. The reason Israel is going forward is because if they don't Hamas has won

There will be more and worse terror attacks on Israel, Hamas will run back to Gaza to hide among the civilians and folks like you will continue to tell Israel they can't defend themselves and they will just have to learn to live with terrorist attacks.

[Happy Hoosier]

87. That is inaccurate

It is not a violation of international law to kill civilians. It is a violation of international law to explicitly TARGET civilians. Collateral casualties are not war crimes, if the target is a military target of sufficient value… and that is pretty subjective. Basically you have to be pretty obviously deliberately going after civilians.

And how the fu*k do you know what I will acknowledge? Building another strawman. Of course revenge is something of a motive here. There are decades of bad blood here, and Hamas ripped open an old wound in spectacularly horrific fashion.

It is your interpretation that they are targeting “hapless” people. If you have evidence for that, let’s see it. I absolutely want to hold Israel accountable if we have evidence they are committing atrocities

[TexasDem69]

89. Yep

[Big Blue Marble]

115. The evidence speaks for itself.

Have you seen the children of Gaza scared, hungry and desperate.

It is a violation to withhold water and food from people, and to cut off their electricity,


You are justifying genocide. I am sorry your heart is closed to their suffering.

As far as evidence of atrocities, look the West Bank Settlers who daily commit atrocities
against Palestinians who already live quiet lives of desperation under the domination
of the Israeli military.

[Happy Hoosier]

124. Ah yes... good ole fashioned self-righteous indignation

It must be nice living in your world of stark black and white.

The rest of us have to deal with shades of gray.

By your definition, every war is a “genocide.”

I don’t believe you are a serious person interested in actual solutions.

Good day.

[SickOfTheOnePct]

98. Quote please

From any Israeli government official who has said they favor genocide of the Palestinians.

Also, it’s not against interns law to kill civilians. It’s against international to purposely target civilians.

[Big Blue Marble]

106. Here you go:

Bezale lSmotrich, current Minister Of Defense and Minister in Defense Department.

“ flood(ing), simply so, the areas of Judea and Samaria with settlements and Jewish settlers. When this happens, the Palestinians are supposed to understand that they have no chance to get a state of their own and they would have to choose between one of the three options – a life of subjugation under Israeli rule, emigration or a Shahid [martyr] death”

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bezalel_Smotrich#cite_note-:0-43


UN experts condemn attacks on civilians in Israel, Gaza as ‘war crimes’

https://thehill.com/policy/international/4251899-un-civilians-israel-gaza-war-crimes/

[SickOfTheOnePct]

107. Reprehensible statement

But does not say he favors genocide

Nice try though.

[Big Blue Marble]

109. It absolutely does.

And that is how 5 million Palestines took it.

[SickOfTheOnePct]

110. I have no doubt they took it that way

But he gave three options - all reprehensible - but didn’t say which one he favored.

Like I said, nice try though.

[Big Blue Marble]

112. Three great options Huh?

I guess you would accept those conditions for your life. And one of those is to die.
If you were honest, you would realize there are those in Israel, some including in the government
that want to destroy these people one way or the other.

How do you justify the behavior of the West Bank settlers who destroy Palestinian villages,
farms, water resource and kill Palestinians after illegally taking their land?

[SickOfTheOnePct]

113. My bad

I assumed you knew what “reprehensible” meant.

[Big Blue Marble]

118. Insulting my intelligence is a great way to have the last word.

[SickOfTheOnePct]

119. If I say

Three reprehensible choices, and you respond with “Three great choices, huh? “, then it appears that you didn’t understand what I was saying when I said theee reprehensible choices.

Otherwise, why would you respond that way?

[Big Blue Marble]

120. I would have thought that you understood sarcasm. N/T

[SickOfTheOnePct]

121. Oh I understand sarcasm

Just makes no sense when I’m agreeing with you that all three choices were bad

[Big Blue Marble]

126. I think that we are not as far apart on the statement as our argument would

indicate. I was asked to provide a quote that supported my contention that some
Israelis including government ministers support genocide. I provided the
incendiary quote of Smotrich. While agreeing that it is reprehensible, you deny
that it supports genocide. That is the disagreement. It is a well known statement
most neutral people see as genocidal.

And if you take the time to read his biography, you will be horrified at his racism and dehumanize
of the Palestinian, sounding much like the racists of our South.

And he is a minster of the government.

[Big Blue Marble]

127. I think that we are not as far apart on the statement as our argument would

indicate. I was asked to provide a quote that supported my contention that some
Israelis including government ministers support genocide. I provided the
incendiary quote of Smotrich. While agreeing that it is reprehensible, you deny
that it supports genocide. That is the disagreement. It is a well known statement
most neutral people see as genocidal.

And if you take the time to read his biography, you will be horrified at his racism and dehumanize
of the Palestinian, sounding much like the racists of our South.

And he is a minister of the government.

[sanatanadharma]

62. Oh! oh! I know, lets ask NRA how many? They must have a dead-children number they can't accept.

"How many dead children are you comfortable with?"

Does it matter if it is one, two at a time, or do we have to do it all at once?


Everyone dies. Killing is a choice. Always!

[Big Blue Marble]

71. I am not comfortable with one dead child anywhere.

Other than that your response is unintelligible.

[sanatanadharma]

74. Amen

namaste

[Arazi]

37. Have to destroy Hamas to stop *their* killing

Hamas needs to move their civilians out of the way.

Israel is going to finish Hamas, permanently, and it’s on Hamas as the Palestinian government responsible for its civilians, to move them to safety.

Hamas has provoked this. It’s a war they’ve decided upon. So Israel is going to take them up on that.

Hamas’ charter calls for open warfare with Israel and to destroy it. There’s no “living with” that.

Israel’s given the civilians notice to evacuate.

Time’s up for Hamas

[Happy Hoosier]

59. You didn't answer the question

I’m not cavalier about the suffering of innocents. If you can suggest an alternative approach, I’m all ears.

[Big Blue Marble]

83. I did in my response to you above. I will say it again.

Stop and protect the civilians in Gaza, not curely deprive them of water, food, electricity and fuel.
and then tell them to leave their homes. Tell the wounded in hospitals and the babies in incubators to leave.
Tell disabled in wheel chairs to go. And there are those trapped and slowly dying under the ruble,
how are they to leave?

And then bomb them on the evacuation routes. This is mass murder not defense.

[Happy Hoosier]

90. How do they defeat Hamas?

I don’t see your viable alternative there.

Also I’d like to see the actual evidence of Israel bombing evacuation routes. I’ve seen the claim, but forgive me for thinking that Hamas would kill their own people to score PR points… i think they absolutely would.

[Big Blue Marble]

92. Does Hamas have airplanes that drop bombs from the sky.

Your denial is astounding

Are you so protective of Israel, that you do not think them capable of a war crime?


https://www.itv.com/news/2023-10-14/footage-shows-families-trying-to-escape-gaza-before-being-hit-by-airstrike

[Happy Hoosier]

96. FFS

… stop telling me what I think. You’re wrong and it’s fucking rude, not to mention a shitty argument.

I have highly critical of Israel. Yo the point that I was accused of being antisemitic because I said Israel’s settles in the West Bank are illegal and I’ll extrajudicial executions murder.

I’ve seen that report… but no evidence it was the result of an air strike. Just a claim. Have any? I think Hamas is fully capable of kill its own people to score PR points… after all, they asked civilians to NOT evacuate… knowing this would get many of them killed.

Hamas

[Arazi]

97. Hamas launched rockets and murderous incursions into Israel

They did so from civilian areas, which is a war crime. Using civilians and hostages as human shields, which is a war crime.

Israel has responded.

It is devastating that innocent civilians have been killed, but this is a war. Hamas could, and should be doing everything it can to protect its civilians. Instead, they are doing everything they can to ensure that they are killed.

Hamas continues the rocket attacks and incursions. They haven’t released a single hostage.

[EX500rider]

143. Hamas missiles also fall from the sky and regularly go way off course in the wrong direction

[Arazi]

95. Taking this one by one

1. It’s not the responsibility of Israelis to protect the Palestinian civilians. That’s on their govt - Hamas. They’ve had 15 years and BILLIONS OF dollars to build their own water, electric and food supplies (there are rural areas that could grow food in Gaza). They’ve chosen weapons and tunnels. As for *right now*, well now it’s a war and it sucks but the reality is this is a war that Hamas brought on and Israel isn’t playing. Hamas continues bombing and making murderous incursions even now. They haven’t released a single hostage. It’s a war.

2. Civilians are being told to get out of a battle zone. Personally I’d believe the Israelis when they say to get out. I’d leave my house and get out.

3. The wounded, babies and elderly have now had 5 days to evacuate (that’s the actual time tbh). The last 48 hours has been a UN warning that the Israelis mean it and it’s time to get out.

4. The evacuation route has not been bombed by Israel. You’re reading Palestinian propaganda. Maybe expand your sources. Please.

5. Those that are trapped under rubble are there because HAMAS puts themselves in civilian areas and uses their own people and hostages as human shields. Anyone in that position has been placed in catastrophic danger BY HAMAS. It will be terrible, TERRIBLE to leave the recovery efforts but I repeat, this is Hamas’ war. They’ve asked for it and now they are most certainly getting it. The civilian casualties are ON THEM

[Big Blue Marble]

102. If you believe all this, I feel sorry for you. Your morality is corrupted.

1. It is considered occupied territory under international law. And even if were not, Israel is responsible
under international to protect civilians in a war zone.

2 & 3. They have no place to go. They are trapped. All of Gaza is a war zone.
They have no food, no water, no sanitization. There are no safe places in Gaza.

4. Are you denying that these people died while evacuating. Or just blaming them for being targets.

5. Let's pray that you never trapped under rubble slowing dying and know that no one will come
to rescue. Blaming the victim is traditional way of excusing violence.

If it were still the nineteen century, you would comfortably justify the killing of the indigenous people.
You are using the same logic as the Europeans did to justify the genocide of the native peoples.

It is clear that you can rational the deaths of millions if nrecessary.

[Arazi]

105. It's a war

You seem to forget that.

It’s not occupied. Hamas has been in charge since 2005.

Hamas is responsible for protecting its citizens. Israel has done everything it could - including knocks on buildings to warn residents to get out and now days of advance warning that their ground invasion is imminent.

I am denying Israel caused the deaths of evacuees. You’ll have to provide proof that they were responsible for any incidents other than just your say-so.

They absolutely have a place to go. South of the river.

I reject your framing that I’d be ok with indigenous genocide. That’s utter bullshit. This is a war that Hamas has provoked and brought on themselves.

Hamas. Brought. This. On. Themselves.

And Israel isn’t playing

[Big Blue Marble]

108. Internationally, it is considered occupied as Israel controls every aspect of the Gazan's life.

The people of Gaza are not Hamas, no matter how many times you say it. There is never
a justification to starve or allow people to die from dehydration. Do you know how vulnerable
babies are to dehydration followed by death?

You do not move a million people a few miles without basic necessities to a place without
basic necessities. There is no food, no water, no sanitization. How long before typhoid will
be running rampant. Go ahead a blame all the death and suffering on Hamas as 1000's
die, but you are wrong. Israel hold responsibility as well.

[womanofthehills]

138. I am sick to see so many on DU care so little for innocent women & children

Who are you people? Have you always been among us?

[AloeVera]

161. I know

I feel exactly the same way. I just became a member but have loved DU for years. Now only yours and a few others' voices ring true for me. On this issue.

[Happy Hoosier]

56. No, I am not. That's a strawman.

I am pointing out that Hamas has a policy of genocide. It is their stated goal. That’s simply true. The attack on Gaza isn’t happening in a vacuum.

[RocRizzo55]

11. Believe that old propaganda

It is no longer true.

[sarisataka]

14. Incorrect and not propaganda

Per the Hamas charter, there is no place for Israel.

[PCIntern]

22. That's right...

The usual group is out in force telling us that Jews have no right to exist. Yes, that’s what it is…these murdering psychopaths can come into Israel, murder 1300, have plans to go to schools to kill as many as possible and then there’s nothing they’re allowed to do to stop this horror.

NEVER AGAIN, got it??? No matter what, NEVER AGAIN. we aren’t gonna sit around and wait for permission to live.

[sarisataka]

29. Since this began I have

Found the Hamas Covenant and read the entire thing.

I would recommend anyone who dismisses Israel's actions out of hand take 20 minutes and read it. They may be surprised to see who they are tacitly supporting and what sort of enemy Israel is facing.

[SickOfTheOnePct]

32. I take issue with word "tacit"

For many, it’s quite explicit.

[sarisataka]

38. I consider those to whom tacit

Does not apply I believe would be too far gone to change their position.

I would be happy to be wrong but seeing the denial of facts and evidence by the explicit group gives me little hope they would believe the words even "straight from the horse's mouth".

[Big Blue Marble]

111. No one on DU is supporting Hamas.

They would be tombstones din a New York Minute. I have read their doctrine and I am horrified.

[sarisataka]

123. I am glad you read it

And even more glad you were horrified.

[Celerity]

149. +10000000000000000

[Happy Hoosier]

58. Can you point me to where Hamas has changed their policy?

The PA has, but mot Hamas. Please point to where Hamas acknowledges Israel’s right to exist. If you do, I will apologize and rescind the statement.

[RocRizzo55]

63. The May 2017 revision of their charter.

referenced here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas_Charter
and here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas_Charter

[Arazi]

67. Your link says Hamas rejects Israel's right to exist

The 2017 charter accepted for the first time the idea of a Palestinian state within the borders that existed before 1967 and rejects recognition of Israel which it terms as the "Zionist enemy".

[Happy Hoosier]

69. Nope.

From your link: The 2017 charter accepted for the first time the idea of a Palestinian state within the borders that existed before 1967 and rejects recognition of Israel which it terms as the "Zionist enemy".[2] It advocates such a state as transitional but also advocates "liberation of all of Palestine".[14][15]

[forthemiddle]

66. What should Israel do?

Simple question.
If Hamas released the hostages (including the children you seem to be so worried about), maybe there could be talk of ceasefire, but until then no compromise.
So again, what should Israel do?

[leftstreet]

7. DURec

read this earlier and thought it was good

[sarisataka]

12. I was willing to listen

Until

that errant Hamas rockets were responsible for the destruction of schools and medical clinics, is part of the rhetorical cover

Hamas targets civilians with rockets, guns, knives and flame. Nothing "errant" about it.

I too have been in urban combat and not just as an observer. I do not agree with his assessment
"there is only one rule — kill anything that moves"

[Calculating]

19. You literally have Hamas bombing the escape routes so more of their people die

I'm sorry, this situation utterly sucks, but Israel needs to deal with this issue. Dead civilians are on Hamas at this point.

[T_A]

40. The IDF

first told Gaza civilians they could exit at the Rafah border crossing at the Gaza/Egypt border.

THEN the IDF BOMBED the Rafah border crossing on the Gaza side, leaving a massive hole in the ground, which blocks anyone from even approaching the gate.

[EX500rider]

43. Feel free to post a shot of this "hole blocking the gate"

[T_A]

61. I Saw Reports From Two Different News Outlets

Vivian Salama: It's easier said than done. I've been speaking to Egyptian officials the last few days, and the thing is they're willing to do it and they're willing to do that for European countries as well. The problem is two things. There is a very deep hole on the Gaza side of the Rafah crossing right now because of an Israeli missile that hit the Gaza Strip. And it is logistically --

Jeffrey Goldberg: A literal hole, yes.

Vivian Salama: A literal hole in the ground, and it is logistically very difficult for people to access it.

https://www.pbs.org/weta/washingtonweek/video/2023/10/washington-week-with-the-atlantic-full-episode-101323

~

I don't remember where I watched it on another news outlet.

I don't know if anyone can get close enough to take a pic.

[sarisataka]

64. Have you given any thought as to why there is a hole

Instead of the typical crater a bomb leaves behind?

[T_A]

78. Eh

because she stated it was a "Israeli missile", not a bomb.

[sarisataka]

81. There is a hole

Because of the Hamas tunnel system built under the border. They felt Israel would not bomb it if it was close to the crossing. They were wrong.

Funny thing is, it is possible to go around a hole.

[T_A]

91. Unsubstantiated Conjecture On Your Part

Also, she stated that because of the size of the hole:

"it is logistically very difficult for people to access it"

referring to the gate.

Helps if you actually READ what others post instead of conjuring-up stuff.

[EX500rider]

145. "Funny thing is, it is possible to go around a hole."

Apparently it is this big:

[EX500rider]

168. yeah I think the "hole" story is BS

Was watching live news footage today taken at the crossing and there were many people there and cars pulling up right in front of it on the Gaza side

[LexVegas]

21. Blame Israel First Brigade fall in! nt

[TexasDem69]

28. I'd ignore Hedges' views on Israel--they're trash

Per this article he wrote, Israel is a “gangster state.”

https://www.salon.com/2022/07/19/final-act-of-empire-us-israel-and-the-saudis-now-heading-for-with-iran/

And according to this one from 2021, Hamas was only engaging in “minimal acts of violence” while Israel has passed “racist” laws and engaged in “industrial violence.”

https://www.salon.com/2021/05/15/israels-big-lie-this-isnt-self-defense--its-a-war-crime-aided-and-abetted-by-the-us/

[SickOfTheOnePct]

34. He's a Terrorist propagandist, IMO n/t

[Arazi]

39. +1 million

[sarisataka]

45. Very enlightening reads

He my be a prize winning journalist but he is definitely not objective.

[Crunchy Frog]

94. I'd ignore his views on everything.

He's with RT, and and pushes Putin's talking points.

There are much better people out there with diverse perspectives.

[nycbos]

30. Yeah no.

Hamas uses their own people as human shields while their "leaders' hide in bunkers underground like the cowards they are.

The deaths of innocent Palestinian civilians are a tragedy. But Hamas is responsible for them Not only does Hamas not acknowledge Israel's right to exist, they call for the killing of all Jews worldwide.

The world can't seem to let Jews just exist peace.

[TexasDem69]

55. The US Secretary of State disagrees with Al Jazeera

https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/blinken-cruelty-of-hamas-onslaught-defies-comprehension-gazans-used-as-human-shield/

And do a bit of research and you’ll find that Al Jazeera isn’t particularly neutral when it comes to Israel.

[sarisataka]

57. Only one thing comes to mind

BTW welcome to DU

[Elessar Zappa]

52. There's only one group in this mess that wants genocide

and it isn’t Israel.

[NotVeryImportant]

65. What we're witnessing here folks is state-sanctioned genocide

And, sadly, USA supports them.

This won't end up well for Israel in the long-run.

Watch...

[Arazi]

68. Hamas is responsible for moving its civilians to safety

Hamas as the government is responsible for ensuring their civilians aren’t in the war zone.

Israel has given the Palestinians 48+ hours now to move 12 miles (at most) south - a distance that can be walked in 4-5 hours by a healthy person. But the extra time is to allow the evacuation of the elderly, sick, wounded, families etc.

In response Hamas has told its citizens to stay in the battle zone.

Hamas provoked a war that Israel is going to give them. If there’s any civilian casualties this is on Hamas for the war crime of using its civilians and hostages as human shields.

[NotVeryImportant]

73. Unless it's Hamas killing those innocent civilians

The deaths will be on Israel.

Cut the crap.

[SickOfTheOnePct]

75. Laughable n/t

[Arazi]

76. Uh, wtf?!

Using civilians and hostages as human shields is a war crime and entirely on Hamas.

Period

[sarisataka]

104. President Biden has explicitly said

We stand by Israel against terrorists.

Does that mean our President supports genocide?

[EX500rider]

146. "What we're witnessing here folks is state-sanctioned genocide"

Yes, Hamas is guilty of that, we've all seen the footage of their soldiers surrounding music concerts and mowing down all the civilians etc

[Sympthsical]

72. Chris Hedges who had a show on Russia Today Chris Hedges?

Huh.

Don't people usually rake those who do that over the coals here?

What's changed, what's changed, what's changed . . .

[AZSkiffyGeek]

79. To be fair, Thom Hartmann gets a pass as well nt

[Sympthsical]

86. It's just interesting

Those who see Putin's hand in all things - and I wouldn't dismiss his influence in any Middle Eastern matter out of hand - haven't pieced together that maybe anti-Israel sentiment is in his interest.

People who blame a stubbed toe on Putin aren't interested?

I just wonder what could be affecting this sudden onset myopia.

[Crunchy Frog]

80. Chris Hedges has become pro-Putin.

I've completely lost the respect that I used to have for him.

[RocRizzo55]

84. You are so wrong

It's pathetic. I am not even going to start to explain, so don't ask.

[AZSkiffyGeek]

88. Well that clears things up!

[womanofthehills]

141. Duh! He has been to so many wars all over the world!

War is horrific and he has seen them all up close. I love his podcasts -

[RocRizzo55]

142. That's why he came out against Putin

In a podcast in the beginning of all the crap there. Apparently you never had respect for the man.

[Crunchy Frog]

152. I had a huge amount of respect for him at the time of the Iraq war.

I went to his Twitter account at the start of the Ukraine war looking for some wisdom and insight. Instead I found him ranting furiously about how Biden had "goaded" Putin into invading, and urging that we give Ukraine no military assistance.

Yeah, he pays lip service to saying that Putin was wrong to invade, but then holds everyone else responsible except him and acts like we're doing something terrible to him and russia, and he wants to leave Ukraine without the means to defend itself. Also claims that the Maidan revolution was a coup that we engineered, and basically acts as if neither russians nor Ukrainians have any agency at all.

So he's against Putin while demanding that we give him exactly what he wants while assigning him no personal responsibility for anything that he's done. With enemies like that, who needs friends.

No, I think I'll stay with my assessment of him based on what I saw of things he actually said.

[BootinUp]

154. War is a force

that gets crunchy posting.

[RocRizzo55]

156. That is

Your perception if you only look at one side. Maybe you don’t have the time to research things, but he was correct about Ukraine. Then again, we have more different options to get the news here in the Netherlands than folks in the US.

[BootinUp]

157. could you spell out what you mean by:

"... but he was correct about Ukraine."

[Crunchy Frog]

164. He means that the Maidan revolution was really a "coup",

engineered by Victoria Nuland and her magic cookies. That Zelenskyy is a gay, Jewish, Nazi; installed by the Obama regime, even though Trump was in office when he won the election against the last Nazi dictator that Obama installed. That there was a formal agreement made with the Russian Federation not to ever expand NATO, during the negotiations on German reunification, even though the Russian Federation didn't yet exist, and Gorbachev has said that there was never any such agreement made.

The invasion happened because Putin was just feeling so threatened by all the NATO expansion, and we mustn't pay any attention to all the things that he's actually said about recreating the glory of the Russian Empire, or that there's no such thing as Ukraine, and it has no right to exist as a state, or even as a national identity.

Also, I'm apparently a victim of US propaganda, even though I don't watch TV and rarely access our MSM, but rather pay attention to what Putin and other Russian officials, and the Russian media actually say, as well as following and listening to actual Ukrainians.

I won't be engaging with him anymore.

[BootinUp]

166. Thank You. Putin would be proud

to partner with him.

[Crunchy Frog]

160. I've had a lot of time to research things. Maybe I've just come to

different conclusions than you have. I get my info from many different sources, but not mainstream media. There are people from every country who mostly get their news from Russia Today and from professional contrarians. Hedges' "correct info about Ukraine" is pretty much verbatim Russian propaganda talking points. Don't worry, there are gullible people everywhere, even if the Netherlands.

[RocRizzo55]

162. True

If you listen to US propaganda

[Crunchy Frog]

163. Trying to win this debate with personal attacks?

Is that how they carry on discussion in the Netherlands? In any event, I don't engage with people at that level, so I will leave you to your superior Russia Today non-propaganda, and put you on ignore. Bye.

[RocRizzo55]

167. No personal attack meant.

Here’s a link to the story about the demonstration in Amsterdam fro the Palestinian people. Hamas is the problem, not the Palestinian people.
https://www.dutchnews.nl/2023/10/10000-demonstrate-in-amsterdam-in-support-of-palestine/

[BootinUp]

158. you still can spot them with your eagle eye!

[betsuni]

153. Yes, said Ukraine was "another bungled attempt to reassert U.S. global hegemony."

"Reports about Russian interference in elections and Russian bots influencing public opinion -- which Matt Taibbi's recent reporting on the 'Twitter Files' as an elaborate piece of black propaganda -- was uncritically amplified by the press. It seduced Democrats and their supporters into seeing Russia as a mortal enemy. ... America's two ruling parties depend on campaign funds from the war industry ... ." Blah blah blah.

[T_A]

169. Additional Corroboration

Leila Molana-Allen reporting from Tel Aviv for the PBS Newshour:

Then they were told to go down to the south, and they were told that there was a small pocket around the Rafah Crossing that would be a humanitarian zone. They approached it, and there was a strike on the Rafah Crossing.

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/show/humanitarian-crisis-in-gaza-worsens-ahead-of-anticipated-israeli-invasion-against-hamas

Further corroboration that there was indeed an airstrike on the Rafah Crossing, contrary to those who claimed it never happened.