Did Israel bomb a civilian evacuation route in Gaza?

[WhiskeyGrinder]

https://www.ft.com/content/95c5fcf1-c756-415f-85b8-1e4bbff24736

Just a day after Israel ordered 1.1mn civilians to leave northern Gaza, two blasts on Friday destroyed multiple cars driving along one of the enclave’s main roads south.

Videos of the aftermath verified by the Financial Times show 12 bodies of men, women and children in Salah-ad-Din street, which Israel later designated a “safe route”. One of the explosions rocks an ambulance as it attempts to leave the scene with some of the injured.

Hamas pinned blame on Israel for striking a civilian convoy, claiming the attack killed more than 70 people and injured 200. Lieutenant Colonel Jonathan Conricus, a spokesman for the Israel Defense Forces, denied the allegations, telling the Financial Times the IDF didn’t “strike any location”. “Hamas is behind this, is using the death of Palestinian civilians for its vile political purposes.”

Such disputes over civilian deaths are a regular feature of modern warfare, especially in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. To assess the competing claims, the FT has worked with Airwars, a conflict monitoring group, as well as munitions experts to shed light on the nature of the attack, its timing, aftermath and the type of explosive used.

tl;dr: Probably.

[speak easy]

1. IDF says Israel not responsible for Salah-al-Din convoy explosion

ISRAEL Defense Forces on Sunday (October 15) claimed that Israel is not responsible for the explosion that blew up a convoy carrying Palestine civilians in Salah-al-Din, one of the main roads in the Gaza Strip.

“What I am able to say with confidence,/because we have asked, is that the IDF did not purposely strike in that area. There was no targeting of vehicles,” said Israel Defense Forces (IDF) spokesperson Jonathan Conricus.

[T_A]

2. The IDF Tried To Claim It was From IEDs

planted in the road, but the attack was from air strikes, hence the IDF.

Remember, this is the same IDF that told Gaza civilians they could exit via the Rafah crossing into Egypt, then they launched missile strikes against the crossing.

Merely an attempt at public relations.

[former9thward]

3. How do you know the attack was from air strikes?

Where are you getting that from?

[LexVegas]

4. Blame Israel First Brigade. nt

[former9thward]

6. Oh, I know.

Just thought I would ask to see what would be posted.

[lapucelle]

40. Why?

[SickOfTheOnePct]

5. I was wondering the same thing

And who is to say, if it was an air attack, that it wasn’t Hamas?

Much more likely they would do it than IDF.

[T_A]

7. Simple

Because those attacked stated they were dodging air strikes.

There was video of them carrying the wounded away from the scene.

[LexVegas]

8. "Dodging airstrikes"

[SickOfTheOnePct]

9. Where is the video of all the air strikes? N/t

[former9thward]

10. What video?

Do you speak their language?

[Igel]

12. The video I generally believe.

But "eye witnesses" often aren't, esp. if they're in a car and terrified or harried.

[Igel]

11. Not in the video.

Guy specifically said they weren't claiming it was an IED but they were "purposively" targeting the area. "Feak accident" is another quote.

Raising alternatives =/= claim.

Don't know if there were Hamas missiles in the air at the time or if their notorious lack of targeting accuracy has improved.

[T_A]

13. They Said Jets

not to mention Hamas missiles are not that accurate.

[EX500rider]

17. Hamas rockets not being that accurate is exactly why it could also have come from them

Many are known to land off course in Gaza

[T_A]

28. But It Wasn't One

the strikes were tracking the convoy. Hamas has no way to do that, and their missiles are not that accurate.

[EX500rider]

41. You have no idea if it wasn't one

If Hamas missiles go off course they can land anywhere in Gaza

[T_A]

47. HEH

you missed the point. It wasn't JUST one.

The MULTIPLE airstrikes were tracking the convoy. Hamas has no way to track a target and launch missiles at it, and any missiles launched would not be that accurate. Random missile launches could not track a convoy.

[EX500rider]

49. I didn't say they tracked it

I doubt anyone fired at it on purpose, either the IDF had some smart bombs go dumb or Hamas had some missiles go off track.

If anyone did fire at it on purpose my money is on Hamas to create PR in their favor, I don't see the IDF saying this is a safe corridor and then firing at it to create bad PR

[Happy Hoosier]

70. Gaza isn't big....

They could hear and even see jets that have nothing to do with them. You’ll forgive me if I suspect them of being mistaken.

And I 100% think Hamas would kill their own people for PR points. No need for missiles for that.

[T_A]

78. Except

Hamas doesn't have an air force.

[Happy Hoosier]

79. So what?

I wasn’t suggesting they were Hamas jets. WTF?

The jets these people saw or heard were Israeli…. But likely had nothing to do with them.

You seem determined to come to a conclusion based on really thin evidence.

[T_A]

82. Eh

"Thin evidence" as in unaffiliated witnesses who were only present by happenstance.

[Happy Hoosier]

83. Yes.

No corroborating evidence. Just a “those evil Israelis did it… trust me.”

Well.. I don’t trust them to be accurate. Maybe you do. That’s on you.

[T_A]

87. So

there's the people from the convoy who survived the attack AND the witnesses who were only there by happenstance, and you have... ABSOLUTELY NOTHING.

Sure.

[Darwins_Retriever]

94. Could be multiple RPGs

Hamas has plenty of those.

[Happy Hoosier]

95. Or an IED

I saw the video of this incident (it's all over the internet)... The explosion is relativley small (for an airstrike) and symmetrical. That's not characteristic of an airstrike, though not conclusive either. If the IDF were targeting that road, why would they use just one small bomb? They could have killed MANY more on that road if they were deliberately targeting civilians. And the explosion appears to happen right on the traffic path of the road... like a vehicle-based bomb went off. Lots of debris at the edges of the explosion too (again, symmetrically) which is not the typical character of an aerial bombs.

To me, this smells bad. COULD have the IDF done it? Possibly. But the evidence does not point that way, IMO.

[sarisataka]

102. I watched videos of the explosion

As slow as possible. I cannot see anything coming from the side to impact the vehicle.

To my eyes it appears the explosion originates from underneath which is typical of an IED

[Happy Hoosier]

103. I concur.

It's not conclusive, but that's the direction the evidence points, IMO.

[usonian]

14. Betteridge's law of headlines Says no.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Betteridge%27s_law_of_headlines

Betteridge's law of headlines is an adage that states: "Any headline that ends in a question mark can be answered by the word no." It is named after Ian Betteridge, a British technology journalist who wrote about it in 2009, although the principle is much older. It is based on the assumption that if the publishers were confident that the answer was yes, they would have presented it as an assertion; by presenting it as a question, they are not accountable for whether it is correct or not.

[EX500rider]

15. Another possibility is a off course Hamas rocket which they are still launching

Having seen a lot of footage of the launches now many head in the direction of Israel but a few head in other directions.
Not like they are made by Lockheed in a modern factory.

[sarisataka]

16. I have heard it was an Israeli bombing

And I have heard it was a car bomb which would imply Hamas.

Since each side has means, motive and opportunity I will not point a finger without more evidence

[mcar]

18. Probably Hamas

Why would Israel do that?

[T_A]

19. Why Would The IDF

publicly tell Gaza civilians they could safely exit via the Rafah crossing into Egypt, then they launched missile strikes against the crossing?

[mcar]

20. They did?

Do you have proof of that?

[T_A]

21. That Was Already Addressed In A Previous Thread

[SickOfTheOnePct]

22. Link please?

I’ve not seen any proof that the IDF attacked the escape route.

Thanks!

[T_A]

23. That Was A While Back

try searching for 'Rafah'.

[SickOfTheOnePct]

25. You made the claim

I’m not going to search for the proof .

Plus Rafah is the crossing - that’s not even what we’re talking about in this thread.

[mcar]

35. Thanks

[T_A]

37. EH

It's an older thread.

It was all over the media.

It was already hashed out. The short & sweet is that the Egyptian officials stated it was a missile strike by Israel.

I don't do hoops.

If you're interested in more specifics, you can search by 'Rafah'.

Otherwise, fuggetaboutit.

[EX500rider]

53. Except the crossing wasn't hit, I saw live video of it today looking fine with cars driving up to it

IDF may or may not been striking Hamas tunnels under the border in the area, either way Eygpt used it as a excuse to keep the border shut.

[T_A]

59. Once Again

Egyptian officials previously stated it was struck by an Israeli missile.

Egyptian officials stated yesterday they were working to "reopen the Rafah crossing".

Don't know what else you want.

[EX500rider]

60. It wasn't hit though, ever think Egypt is stalling to keep it shut?

I was going back and forth between CBS & NBC today, one of them had live footage from the Gaza side, no damage, people milling about with luggage and a actual cab drove right up in front of the gate for a drop off.

[T_A]

62. Eh

A) You have no evidence it "wasn't hit".

B) Of course it's OK now, they said they were going to work to reopen it.

[EX500rider]

64. You mean other then seeing actual footage of cars driving up to it with no damage?

You have no evidence it was hit other then Egypt making excuses to keep it closed, they want no part of Hamas either.

[T_A]

71. TODAY

Of course.

[EX500rider]

74. Yes today

Find just ONE picture of damage to the crossing, that would be big news with lots of pics and vid

[T_A]

76. HEH

HOOPS!

ENDLESS HOOPS!

[T_A]

80. To Go Full Circle

The correspondent from the WSJ reported:

Vivian Salama: There is a very deep hole on the Gaza side of the Rafah crossing right now because of an Israeli missile that hit the Gaza Strip ... A literal hole in the ground, and it is logistically very difficult for people to access it.

One assumes they have reporters on the ground, or at the very least stringers.

[EX500rider]

84. But unable to take pictures for some reason

[T_A]

90. MORE HOOPS!

ENDLESS HOOPS!

[EX500rider]

99. Hardly a hoop to ask for one picture of something IF it happened would be big news

[T_A]

105. You're Falsely Assuming

The Egyptian authorities would let anybody close to the crossing.

[EX500rider]

107. If the imaginary hole was on the Gaza side how would they stop them?

[T_A]

109. With Your Imaginary "Evidence"

[EX500rider]

110. You are the one with no evidence

Here's Reuters video of the crossing from the Gaza side taken today, you still wanna stick with your "there's a hole blocking the crossing" story?

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/gaza-border-crossing-set-reopen-israeli-troops-prepare-ground-assault-2023-10-15/

[EX500rider]

100. But ones with no cameras or even cell phone pictures for some reason lol

[NickB79]

101. A hole. Like it punched into a Hamas underground tunnel?

Not a crater like you'd expect?

Huh, imagine that.

[T_A]

108. You've GOT To Be Kidding

Given that large trucks with heavy payloads transit the Rafah crossing, do you realize the EXTRAORDINARY construction techniques and EXTRORDINARY construction materials required to build a tunnel beneath the crossing?

Not to mention the Hamas tunnels are very narrow, while the whole at the crossing was described as so large "it is logistically very difficult for people to access" the crossing.

You're climbing the wrong tree. Once again.

[T_A]

24. NBC NIGHTLY NEWS

just showed part of the video I was referencing. It shows one of the guys from the convoy trying to shield himself from an additional Israeli jet air strike.

THEN Richard Engle(SP?) says:

"seventy Palestinians were killed Friday, when MEDICAL OFFICIALS say an Israeli air strike hit a convoy of civilians"

[SickOfTheOnePct]

27. Oh, well if

MEDICAL OFFICIALS said so, it must be true.

Sorry, in a war with lies flying all over the place, I’m gonna need actual proof, unless Israel comes out and says they did it.

[T_A]

29. Let's See Your Witnesses Then

I'll wait.

[SickOfTheOnePct]

31. I don't need any witnesses

Because I’m not stating as fact who did it. I think it’s likely that it was Hamas, but I don’t claim to have any proof of that.

Just as you don’t have any proof it was the IDF.

[T_A]

34. Other Than The WITNESSES

[SickOfTheOnePct]

36. "Witnesses"

With an agenda.

Let’s see the proof, like a video of an actual missile strike.

[T_A]

38. HOW?

did you happen to determine these medical officials who came to the rescue had an agenda?

Apparently someone has an agenda.

As I ALREADY posted, NBC just showed the video of one of the guys from the convoy shielding himself from an additional air strike.

[SickOfTheOnePct]

39. So NBC could video

The guy shielding himself, but couldn’t manage to video the actual plane?

Interesting

[T_A]

42. I See

The guy is trying to NOT DIE, but you expected him to turn the camera around and shoot video of the plane while he's falling to the ground.

Unbelievable.

[SickOfTheOnePct]

44. But that's not what you said

You didn’t say the NBC cameraman was trying to shield himself from an attack. You said “one of the guys from the convoy” was shielding himself, and that NBC videotaped him doing so.

As I ALREADY posted, NBC just showed the video of one of the guys from the convoy shielding himself from an additional air strike.

[T_A]

48. NOPE

a guy from the convoy was videoing the medical rescue team carrying people from the convoy on stretchers, when an additional airstrike comes screaming in, and he dives down behind a wall or something, but you can see the bright white FLASH from the explosion spilling over just above him.

You're aware you can just watch the video yourself?

[EX500rider]

55. By which you mean "medical officials" who work for Hamas?

Gee, they are such nice guys they would never twist anybody's arm to lie, right?
I mean if you can't trust terrorists, who can you trust?!

[T_A]

61. Where's The Evidence That The Medical Team "Work For Hamas"?

[EX500rider]

63. Hamas runs the Health Dept since they are the govt in Gaza

Plus certainly not beyond Hamas to say "Repeat this or your family gets it" They are terrorists you know.

Could be IDF by accident, could be Hamas by accident, could be Hamas on purpose.

Ask yourself you benefits PR wise

[T_A]

69. No

Hamas doesn't "run(s) the Health Dept".

Coulda, woulda, shoulda, except the witnesses say otherwise.

[EX500rider]

73. Hamas being the local govt run all the services in Gaza.

There isn't some independent Heath Dept

[T_A]

81. Nobody

has been running local govt services for years.

Gaza has been under illegal Israeli blockade.

Gaza has been under Illegal Military Occupation.

Gaza is the largest open-air prison on the planet.

[EX500rider]

88. Nonsense Hamas has 16 different government Ministries

Including a Ministry of Health

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas_government_of_October_2016

[T_A]

92. Well

A) Wikipedia is merely OPINION.

B) Even if, once again, how does anyone operate under the conditions of:

* An illegal Israeli blockade

* The Illegal Military Occupation

* The conversion of Gaza into the largest open-air prison on the planet

~

It's a farce.

[EX500rider]

97. lol

Yes, it's a opinion that Mai Al-Kaila is the Hamas Health Minister, really, that's what you're going with? 😂

The number of Palestinians who have died since the start of the war in Gaza rose to 1,799, and there have been 7,388 wounded, the Gaza Ministry of Health said Friday
https://www.wsj.com/livecoverage/israel-hamas-war-gaza-strip/card/latest-death-toll-in-israel-and-gaza-eoVPFI8WcXN0mzIR73pY
.

Israeli blockade?

In Aug. 58,600 people were allowed to travel through the Erez crossing into Israel from Gaza.

Can't really be a blockade when they don't control the Egyptian border. They could have all the trade they need via that border if they hadn't proved to Egypt that their biggest export was terrorism. Egypt doesn't close that border as a favor to Israel you know.

Israel pulled their troops out of Gaza in 2005, that's when the occupation ended.

Hard to be a prison when they don't control one of the borders.

[T_A]

104. So

What color is the sky in your alternative reality?

[lapucelle]

43. This Richard Engel?

Link to tweet

[T_A]

51. Yep

But of course, he's simply relating what the IDF SAID, which is WORTHLESS, given their track record.

[EX500rider]

56. But we can totally trust the genocidal Hamas goons, right?

[T_A]

65. NOPE

Just the witnesses who were only on the scene by happenstance.

[madville]

26. Not likely, probably Hamas

They can see unconditional support for Israel is quickly waning each passing day. Perfect opportunity for them to blow up some innocent folks to try to sway support further away from Israel.

[SickOfTheOnePct]

30. Yep n/t

[lapucelle]

32. The FT fact check authenticated the video, not the claim that Israel was responsible.

Hamas pinned the blame on Israel.

Hamas pinned blame on Israel for striking a civilian convoy, claiming the attack killed more than 70 people and injured 200. Lieutenant Colonel Jonathan Conricus, a spokesman for the Israel Defense Forces, denied the allegations, telling the Financial Times the IDF didn’t “strike any location”. “Hamas is behind this, is using the death of Palestinian civilians for its vile political purposes.”

==================================

FT could have just as easily written a headline that read

Did Hamas bomb a civilian evacuation route in Gaza?

-------------------------------------------------------------

It's weird how FT made an editorial decision to give a terrorist group the benefit of the doubt with it's headline, rather than Israel.

[LexVegas]

46. Hamas and posters on this thread pin the blame on Israel. nt

[muriel_volestrangler]

93. No; from inside the article (you may be able to read it if you google the thread title

... for some reason, the FT allows access to an article if you google the exact title and click through from the results)

The sub=heading is "Evidence points to IDF weapons as blasts hit multiple cars along main road south", and, lower down,

While pro-Palestinian activists and official Hamas statements blame the explosions on Israeli air strikes, it is difficult to conclusively prove whether these blasts came from an IDF strike, a potential Palestinian rocket misfire or even a car bomb.

Chris Cobb-Smith, a former British army major and weapons and munitions expert, said that while it was hard to draw a definitive conclusion, the available evidence suggested the most likely cause of the blast was a missile strike.
...
The FT sent detailed questions, including a precise location and approximate time, to Conricus, the IDF spokesman.

On Sunday, in a briefing broadcast on X, formerly Twitter, he played a video of a different explosion two miles south on Salah-ad-Din street. He said the IDF was not responsible for this attack — which he suggested was more likely to be from a roadside IED — but did not mention the blasts documented in the videos verified by the FT.

The thing is that missile strikes, as opposed to IEDs, inside Gaza are overwhelmingly coming from the IDF, not Hamas. The IDF is carefully avoiding talking about this particular strike.

[Mosby]

33. Hamas planted bombs

Link to tweet

[stopdiggin]

45. I'll just point out that it makes absolutely no sense

for Israel to have (intentionally) done so. There's just no way that it fits into any sort of strategy. And if one is reaching far enough to concoct some sort of story about an attempt to smear Hamas ... Well that lasted all of about 30 seconds - right?

If something intentional happened here - the most likely suspect would be Hamas. (which was vocal in trying to discourage the evacuation)

[T_A]

50. Why Does It Have To Make Sense?

As I posted upthread, did it make sense for them to publicly announce that Gaza civilians could exit through the Rafah gate, and then launch a missile attack against the Rafah gate on the Gaza side?

Did it make sense for the IDF to use White Phosphorous Munitions in civilian areas, which is a War Crime?

Did it make sense for the IDF to cutoff all food, water, electricity, and fuel, which is War Crime?

Hamas had no manner to launch missiles while tracking the convoy, and their missiles are not accurate enough.

[stopdiggin]

52. you're right. completely illogical, completely non-strategic

completely detrimental to both standing and agenda ...

But convinced they musta' done it anyway!

I'm sorry but I like my arguments a little more straightforward.

--------- --------

[T_A]

54. It's Merely Image Management

[Happy Hoosier]

68. Yes, because all Israelis are bloodthirsty....

… is that your argument? That the only reason they refrain from killing civilians is “image management?”

If not, you may want to clarify your point.

[T_A]

72. I'm Afraid You'll Have To Clarify Your Post First

[Happy Hoosier]

77. Tou said "it was merely image management"

Given the context, it appeared to me that you were arguing that the Israeli declaration that they didn’t bomb the vehicle was “merely image management.” The implication being that the Israelis don’t REALLY care about limiting civilian casualties

If I am mistaken, you may wish to clarify.

[T_A]

86. No

They're just trying to coverup and/or downplay civilian deaths.

[EX500rider]

57. Except the Rafah gate was never and and you might want to quit claiming it was.

[T_A]

66. You're Confused

Your argument is with the Egyptian officials.

Not my claim.

[EX500rider]

75. You have claimed several times the crossing was closed because the IDF bombed it

[T_A]

85. NO

The WSJ correspondent and the Egyptian officials made the claim.

[EX500rider]

89. With zero pictures or video to back it up

[T_A]

91. Perhaps

the authorities wouldn't allow anyone to get close enough until it was repaired.

[EX500rider]

98. Right, cause Hamas wouldn't want to cause any bad PR for Israel lol

[EX500rider]

58. No, but Hamas has shitty rockets that often go way off course, no way it could be that right? lol

[T_A]

67. Right! LOL

Because random missiles could not track and follow and continue to strike a moving convoy.

[Torchlight]

96. US T-27 launchers in WW2 were a myth?

[ripcord]

106. The will be much arguing but we won't know anything until this all ends

[T_A]

111. Further Corroboration

Leila Molana-Allen reporting from Tel Aviv for the PBS Newshour:

People were told they have to move down to the south of Gaza. That's where they will be safe. Even as they started to move a couple of days ago, convoys were hit by airstrikes on the road as families tried to flee.

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/show/humanitarian-crisis-in-gaza-worsens-ahead-of-anticipated-israeli-invasion-against-hamas

Additional corroboration that the claim by the IDF that it was some sort of IED or bomb planted in the road was another LIE.