Sure looks like an open air prison to me

[AntivaxHunters]

What's this look like?
Sure looks like an open air prison to me.
And that's not even Gaza, it's the West Bank.
This is the reality of how the Palestinian people are treated at the hands of the Israeli government.



Article from 2019 https://archive.ph/ahbj1]


Under a debilitating siege for more than a decade, Gaza has been rightfully declared the biggest open-air prison in the world. But there is another, similar, prison in Palestine that is less obvious because it suffers from a different kind of siege, undeclared and indirect: the West Bank. Every Palestinian who resides there and holds official Palestinian identification papers is a prisoner in their own home.

Movement and life in the West Bank are governed by the whims of the Israeli security apparatus, which has set up hundreds of checkpoints, gates, artificial barriers, forbidden and segregated roads and of course, the 700km separation wall, as the Israelis call it, or apartheid wall, as we call it.

So what is it like for a Palestinian who tries to go anywhere in the West Bank?

According to Israeli rights organisations B’Tselem, as of January 2017, there were 59 permanent checkpoints within the West Bank and 39 on its periphery to control the movement of people in and out of it.

A LOT more at link above.

[jimfields33]

1. You mean the Hands of the Hamas Government who rules the Palestinian people

[AntivaxHunters]

3. Hamas does not control the West Bank

[lapucelle]

181. Wasn't there a marathon in Bethlehem City on March 27, 2015?

[tritsofme]

2. Before those security measures, suicide bombings were a common occurrence in Israel.

[AntivaxHunters]

4. The walls were built in 1994

The height of suicide bombings came in 2002 during the Intifada.

Walls don't work.
Just like they don't work on our southern border.

[tritsofme]

6. The first segment of the Israeli West Bank barrier was completed in 2003

The barrier, along with other security measures were quite effective at limiting suicide bombings inside Israel.

[AntivaxHunters]

7. 2000 in West Bank

Oh so now walls work?
Ya I'm not buying that talking point for obvious reasons lol

[tritsofme]

11. Of course barriers can work.

That doesn’t mean that militarizing a 2000 mile border with a close ally and friendly nation is in any way a good idea or smart way to spend money.

[AntivaxHunters]

17. Build more tables not walls

[tritsofme]

20. Cool slogan, I guess? But it wasn't tables that stopped the suicide bombing campaign.

[AntivaxHunters]

22. It also wasn't tables that caused Israeli snipers

to headshot innocent little kids.

The point is this -

For every action there is a reaction.
"Build more tables" is a reference to coming together to find peace. And ONLY peace will solve this.

[tritsofme]

29. Obfuscate however you wish. The security barrier in the West Bank and enhanced security measures

were largely successful at stopping the Palestinian suicide bombing campaign in the early-mid 2000s. I think that’s a good thing.

[AntivaxHunters]

38. That's reactionary logic

Let's look at this with logic, rational, & critical thinking in order to problem solve.

Our own immigration system.
Some say "build the wall! That will keep them out!"
But that doesn't actually solve the problem does it?

The root cause is being over looked & ignored.
In the case of the wall we have on the southern border it's because our system of immigration is very outdated. So we simply treat the symptom instead of the root cause.

The same can be said for the walls in Palestine.
Only the symptoms are being treated not the root cause.
Preventive measures are not a solution to end this conflict & only kick the can down the road. Only treatment of the actual problem will solve this conflict. And that means peace & hammering out an agreement which fully works for all sides involved.

[yagotme]

45. Hamas, along with others, have declared that the death of all Jews is the answer.

Your solution???

[AntivaxHunters]

97. My solution is peace

You can never fully erase an ideology.
We can though make strides to completely minimize it.
What is your solution for the conflict & for the Palestinian people? For me it's peace with a solution that is one that solves things.

[yagotme]

102. You keep saying the word "peace".

I don't think Hamas or others of same ilk know the definition of that word, except to totally eradicate their enemies off the face of the earth. Peace requires compromise from BOTH sides, and as long a 1 side holds out, you will never see your "peace". There are no magic wands to wave over the Middle East to provide instant love and harmony. Sorry.

[Hekate]

134. Bus bombings. Remember those? Take a ride with a suicide bomber. Peace, peace.

[Torchlight]

154. Peace is a goal, not a means.

Lasting peace is the ultimate goal, but it cannot be achieved without preparation, which must be pursued even before a war begins. These are a series of complex layers that cannot be simplistically reduced to t-shirt slogans.

[Doodley]

160. Peace isn't a solution. It's a aspiration. You call it a prison, but offer no alternative other than

saying "peace."

[Cha]

176. Tell that to the Fucking Butchers of HAMAS.

[tritsofme]

46. What exactly is the logic here? That if Palestinian terrorists were able to kill more Jews

in the last two decades, and Israeli security measures had been less effective, perhaps they could have been forced to the table sooner? No thanks.

[former9thward]

50. Its not "reactionary" logic

It is the truth. This is a list of suicide bombings in Israel. You will see as the wall (actually a fence in most areas) became fully built and functioning the number of bombings dropped like a rock.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Palestinian_suicide_attacks

[AntivaxHunters]

100. It's reactionary logic

We aren't looking at the root cause but rather a symptom of the problem.

This entire conflict is 1 big retaliatory war that's lasted 7 ½ decades. One side does something & the other side hits back causing the other side to hit back. On & on. It's a circle.

[yagotme]

104. 7 1/2 decades?

Wrong noun. Try millennia. It's closer to the truth.

[oldsoftie]

67. Like they wouldnt put a bomb under those tables. Please.

That picture shows ONE direction. Dont try to make it seem like the Berlin Wall that surrounded the whole city.

[AntivaxHunters]

105. And what happened to the Berlin wall?

Do you want peace or do you want endless war?
I know what I choose.
Continuing the oppression of the Palestinian people will only continue more bombs. The killing of innocent Israeli citizens must end.

There's a problem here that has 2 bad actors & innocent people on both sides trapped in the middle. It's time it's solved & ended.

[Polybius]

198. "It's time it's solved & ended"

I agree, but how?

[2naSalit]

53. They work really well at...

Identifying oppressive governments.

[tritsofme]

56. Apparently pretty good at stopping suicide bombings.

Disappointing to some, I’m sure.

[2naSalit]

57. Are you really sure about that?

It didn't stop what happened two weeks ago.

[tritsofme]

59. And some are surely happy about that.

Things would be much worse, especially right now, without it.

[2naSalit]

72. Completely subjective.

[tritsofme]

88. Subjective, I suppose only if more dead Jews over the past 20 years

or even the last two weeks, could somehow be considered a good thing.

[AntivaxHunters]

76. I don't think anybody is happy about the Hamas attacks

On this website

[AZSkiffyGeek]

77. Some people think they were involved in Abu Ghraib

It's amazing how disinformation spreads from sites like Twitter.

[lapucelle]

184. The photo in the OP is dated March 27, 2015. The Palestine Marathon was held in Bethlehem that day.

https://www.972mag.com/photos-running-between-the-walls-in-palestine-marathon/

------------------------------------------------------------------------















----------------------------------------

[yagotme]

78. A lot of protestors worldwide would disagree with you. nt

[redqueen]

5. K&R

[justaprogressive]

8. Your eyes do not

deceive you...

[AntivaxHunters]

9. It's probably just a matter of time

Until private prison company GEO Group takes over given their lobbying power & how much they give to our lawmakers in Congress.

[AZSkiffyGeek]

10. Don't understand that the US and Israel aren't the same country?

I'm not sure how "OUR" lawmakers have any say over the West Bank, let alone the ability to contract to a private prison group to administer it.
(PS - that EDITORIAL is 15 years old, the picture accompanying it is almost 20 and the facts you cite in this post are consistently wrong, but what to expect from someone who thinks MSNBC fired all their Muslim personalities).

[AntivaxHunters]

19. Personal attacks? Really?

We're you not aware that GEO Group has an international wing & runs prisons in other countries?

https://www.geogroup.com/geo_secure_services#:~:text=GEO's%20International%20Services%20division%20provides,centers%20encompassing%20approximately%206%2C500%20beds.]

As far as your personal attacks go, let's stick to discussion of the topic at hand, the treatment of the Palestinian people ❤️

[AZSkiffyGeek]

30. Can you point out where Israel is mentioned on that screengrab?

I do see you nicely highlighted a section that disproves your claim that they are operating in Israel. And you also didn't explain how "our lawmakers in Congress" have any say over Israel building prisons. But maybe one of your "30 international doctor's" (sic) is speaking of a different country and different Congress?
I'd also recommend using a source that isn't 15 years old if you want to argue about actions that you think are happening now.

[AntivaxHunters]

52. I never said they did

If you scroll up you'll notice the first comment of mine replied to said "it's probably just a matter of time" until they do ❤️

The source isn't the problem.
The problem is how the Palestinian people are treated as far as this discussion is concerned.

[AZSkiffyGeek]

64. Still doesn't explain why you think America would have any authority

To authorize a private company to do business in Israel. Did one of the non-American doctor's (sic) post this? Perhaps one of the American doctor's (sic) could explain how our government doesn't vote to allow private companies to do business in other countries.

[Hekate]

140. Moving goalposts again

[Dorian Gray]

152. That's THIS discussion

in another discussion, it's about Iran going to war in Gaza. And in ANOTHER it's about IDF attacks that you called War Crimes. All the threads together have iffy information, unverifiable "facts" and a lot of implications.

This was your MO with covid, and it's your mo now. It feels very intentionally divisive. Innuendo here, supposition there... all easy to deny. That's totally how misinfo is spread. I do not like to get into arguments here on DU, but I have a real issue with this type of spreading of misinformation.

[JohnSJ]

74. +++

[Hekate]

139. Pointing out your (or anyone else's) obvious errors is not a personal attack

[Cha]

177. No.. the posterr is just Giving the FACTS. And,

I Thank him!

[lapucelle]

182. Wasn't there a marathon in Bethlehem City on March 27, 2015?

[oldsoftie]

68. I've seen people blame the US for both the Hamas attack & the Russian invasion.

To me its just like the people who blame the feds for Jan 6th.
Like the US controls when Hamas or Russia does ANYTHING

[Cha]

178. THANK YOU!! Muslims Still Working at MSNBC!!!

[carpetbagger]

187. Sheldon Adelson had me confused for a while.

That's snark, but there is a common thread of right wing tycoons getting involved in politics in both countries in relatively similar ways, occasionally overlapping.

[Tomconroy]

12. Looks like a wall to keep out war criminal terrorists.

[Cuthbert Allgood]

87. Trump says the same thing about the wall he wants on the Mexico border.

[Tomconroy]

96. The Palestinians actually have a record for committing

Terrorist acts. An extraordinarily long record.

[Cuthbert Allgood]

103. You mean Hamas?

Because I don't think your average Palestinian does that. There are drug lords in Mexico that do horrible things. But we all know that the average person from Mexico isn't like that.

[yagotme]

108. They don't wear uniforms, nor rank insignia.

Hard to identify a suicide bomber as Hamas or a P-O'd civilian. Especially after the bomb goes off.

[Cuthbert Allgood]

130. Neither do Mexican drug lords.

Are you supportive of a wall on the border?

[yagotme]

135. Yes. Same reason as Israel, we need to know who's crossing.

Tell me why some people need to sneak across the border when they can go a few miles down, cross, and be helped. Especially when they're wearing camo. Are you supportive of letting terrorists cross our border unchallenged/unhindered?

And, actually, cartels ARE starting to wear uniforms. Travelling in armed/armored cars. Just so the average Mexican citizen knows to get out of their way when they're coming down the street.

[Tomconroy]

110. There have been innumerable Palestinian terrorist

Groups over the decades. They appear to be quite popular. The interviews I saw in Gaza recently with people on the street all supported Hamas' war crimes.

[Cuthbert Allgood]

132. "All"? My stats background tells me that's a bold statement.

There is a lot that Israel and the world could do to decrease support for Hamas in Palestine. The complete opposite of those things have actually been done.

But, as to the point of this subthread, creating an open air prison is the answer?

[yagotme]

137. You're in public, giving an interview about your government's policies.

A government that would likely kill you if you don't toe the party line. What are they supposed to say???

[Cuthbert Allgood]

144. So, you agree that "all" Palestinians don't support Hamas, then?

[yagotme]

146. Yes, of course. Never said anything otherwise.

However, a large percentage DO, and that number is all but impossible to quantify. Or verify. It IS enough that Hamas can maintain control of the area.

[Cuthbert Allgood]

151. So there are things that the world and Israel could do to decrease that support.

Walling them in and taking more and more land probably isn't one of those things.

[Doodley]

161. So if Mexico's government said it wanted to destroy America, and it kept bombing America and

sending suicide bombers, you wouldn't want a wall to protect America, including your city and your family?

[yagotme]

164. Yes. Being nice to Hamas isn't one of those things, either.

Reelecting some other group than Hamas isn't likely to go far, either. Hamas has control. They're not going to give that up without a fight. Money, power, control. Everything a good despicable terrorist wants.

[Cuthbert Allgood]

166. I have never said we should be nice to Hamas.

Never. But by fucking over a nation's population, you make it a lot more likely they are going to support the one voice that is saying "fuck those guys." Maybe we stop fucking them over so much? Crazy thought, I know.

[yagotme]

168. But there are those that think we should be nice to them.

Feel sorry for them. When their own politicians are royally screwing them over, possibly lying to them, ginning up hate and distrust, well, just because it suits them. Which came first, the fascist, or the talk radio that egged him on? Which do you blame? Blame both? Punish one, or both? There have been Palestinians committing terrorist acts pre-Hamas. Thinking it will come to a dead stop just because Hamas is removed from power is a pipe dream. When terrorists hide amongst the people, the people need watching, right?

[Cuthbert Allgood]

169. OK, so I see something problematic with your post.

You said we shouldn't be nice to Hamas. I agreed with you. Then you said "Feel sorry for them. When their own politicians are royally screwing them over, possibly lying to them." So you clearly aren't talking about Hamas. You are talking about Palestinians. And I think we do need to be nice to them. They aren't Hamas. And there have always been assholes in every country ever. We don't condemn the entirety of the population because of that.

[yagotme]

173. "When their own politicians are royally screwing them over, possibly lying to them."

Who do you think the Palestinian politicians are??? HAMAS. Hamas ARE Palestinians, not Palestinians are Hamas. Big difference there. Read a little more carefully next time, please.

I have no problem aiding innocent Palestinians. They've been dealt a cruel hand. The problem with aid, you can't just go hand a Palestinian cash. It has to go through the filter of Hamas before any, IF any, reaches the person on the street. THAT'S one of my big gripes about "aid" to Palestine.

[Cuthbert Allgood]

174. If you don't see how you switched from talking about Hamas to talking about Palestinians

then I can't help you. It's very clear if you follow the thread.

[yagotme]

183. Sorry, you're going to have to point that out,

Last edited Wed Oct 18, 2023, 10:43 AM - Edit history (1)

since, as far as I'm concerned, I didn't.

ETA: My bad. My brain did slip a gear tooth in that one post. Was originally thinking of "all" Palestinians from your post #144, got distracted partway through my post (babysitting neighbor's Great Dane, when he wants attention, it's NOW), and went from Hamas to "all" in my train of thought. Even did a double post yesterday, which I NEVER do, due to that big mutt needing to go out.

[Tomconroy]

138. This wall keeps war criminal terrorists OUT. It doesn't

Lock them in. So it's not a prison.

[Cuthbert Allgood]

143. You do realize it keeps your average Palestinian in, right.

So it's a prison for THEM. You know, the ones who didn't do anything wrong. I fully realize it doesn't seem like a prison if you are only looking at it from Israel.

[Tomconroy]

145. Palestinians are free to travel to any country that will take them.

There is a border with Jordan.

[Cuthbert Allgood]

155. Or, and this may seem crazy to you,

perhaps we start doing things that aren't apartheid on a huge population of people. I mean, there is that option.

[yagotme]

149. For argument's sake, let's just say that it does keep them "in".

Sooo, it keeps the militants "in" too, right? So, walls work...

Palestinians, in the West Bank, can go straight east without running into an Israeli wall. Seems that there's just a wall between Israel and the Palestinians. Not very "prison-like". I worked in the prison system. To be a true prison, you needed 360 degree fencing. You don't have that around Palestine. "Prison" definition not met...

[Cuthbert Allgood]

153. So in order to stop a very small minority of people from doing something

you are OK with walling in a large population of innocent people? And you see nothing wrong with this? And don't think that maybe that mentality goes a long way to causing support for Hamas who fights against those walling those same people in?

[Tomconroy]

158. You assume it's a tiny minority.

[Cuthbert Allgood]

163. What do you think the percentage of the population of Palestine is who are terrorists?

And, yes, I assume that is a tiny minority. Apparently you think differently.

[yagotme]

167. Reportedly 40,000 in one spot.

JUST ONE SPOT! What about the rest of the country? 2.1 mil, 40,000 in one spot. More spread around firing missles, patrolling, command structure, etc. That "small percentage" is getting pretty big.

[Tomconroy]

175. I think most are happy with the war crimes perpetrated

last weekend.

[uponit7771]

189. Do you have any data on that or is it just your opinion? thx in advance

[yagotme]

162. "Walling in..."

You realize when something is "walled in", that's a 360 degree containment, right? The walls between Israel and Palestine don't extend all the way around Palestine, do they. I also take issue with "small percentage". I did some rough number crunching in another post, and approx. 20% of population may be Hamas or directly tied to/supporting it.

[Cuthbert Allgood]

165. "supporting it" makes that number problematic, but let's go with that.

You are OK with completely screwing over the rights of 80% of a nation's population because 20% are problematic. And there is no way you can claim that 20% are actually terrorists. 80%. Having rights taken away. We're good with that here?

[yagotme]

170. Have seen same comparisons here re: MAGA and Rethug party, right?

Guilt by association. It happens, sometimes for a good reason.

[uponit7771]

190. MAGA has a choice

[yagotme]

192. According to some here,

their argument against Israel attacking in Gaza is that Hamas is such a small percentage of the population, and very, very few support Hamas. So, why doesn't the population do something about Hamas, then???

[uponit7771]

188. Hamas is not the Palestinian people

[yagotme]

196. The poster was making the point that Palestinian militants,

(who are Palestinian, by the way,) have been making terror attacks prior to Hamas coming in to power. Therefore, his statement that Palestinians have been committing attacks, is correct. They didn't say ALL Palestinians were making attacks.

[McKim]

13. I'm for humanitarian treatment.

I’m for humanitarian treatment. Cameras are on Gaza and one can learn so much by just looking. Let’s pray for a future like a one state with equal rights for all. This is the vision that many are entertaining. Use your eyes to learn about Gaza and imagine something better.

[AntivaxHunters]

15. Exactly this

For the first time a lot of people are seeing how the Palestinian people have been treated. They're a people completely trapped between political causes. They matter.

[pazzyanne]

21. Agree!!! nt

[Lonestarblue]

14. Leaders of Israel have never treated the Palestinians fairly.

I’m linking a Foreign Policy article that gives some history of Israel-Palestine conflict. At its heart, this conflict has always been about the land. Forcing Palestinians to live in squalor with no hope for the future for their children will just continue the conflict because Palestinians think they have nothing to lose.

The conflict will never end until either both groups have independent states or every Palestinian is killed or forced to leave their ancestral lands.

https://foreignpolicy.com/2023/10/10/israel-palestine-conflict-gaza-hamas-war-geography-history/

[AntivaxHunters]

16. You're absolutely correct

[Goddessartist]

27. Yes. It's been pretty horrific for the Palestinians.

[Historic NY]

28. You mean once the Jewish population got the upper hand

over the British.

[Doodley]

31. How is Israel forcing Palestinians to live in squalor with no hope for the future for their children

[Lonestarblue]

35. I don't think anyone could consider Gaza a country club. And in the West Bank, the Israeli settlers

get as much water as they want, growing lush lawns and healthy crops, while Palestinians get very little water and grow stunted crops.

[yagotme]

47. How much money was given to Hamas to use for their people?

How much actually was used for their people, and how much was used for arms/rockets?

[Doodley]

55. Good question. Don't hold your breath, waiting for an answer!

[yagotme]

62. Oh, someone the other day had the numbers posted.

Just wondered if the poster I replied to saw them...

[inthewind21]

63. Whining

About how much other places "leaders" spent on people versus rockets and missiles and using it as justification to dismiss the citizenry as fodder for war is amusing coming from Americans.

[yagotme]

82. The comment we were responding to was how the Palestinians were

"living in squalor". We were pointing out that foreign aid was provided, but the leaders of Hamas knew better how to spend it, and kept a lot of it. Reading the whole line of posts, just not one or two, will give you a better idea of what "us Americans" are discussing.

[rzemanfl]

83. Hmmm. n/t

[hay rick]

18. Two (or three, or ten, or a hundred) wrongs do not make a right.

This recognition is a pre-condition for constructive discussion and action.

Thank you Joe Biden and Anthony Blinken.

[AntivaxHunters]

24. None of it is "right"

Absolutely agree on President Biden ❤️

Link to tweet

[Doodley]

23. One wall doesn't make a prison.

[AntivaxHunters]

26. Pretty sure that looks like a prison

And pretty sure there's more than 1 wall.
Read the article.

[Doodley]

32. Israel doesn't prevent the flow of people to or from Egypt or the Mediteranean.

That isn't a prison. Please don't repeat untruths.

[Lonestarblue]

36. Egypt must give permission for Palestinians to go there. They do not want thousands of

Palestinians who have almost nothing to move to Egypt, which has much poverty among its own citizens. And the question remains, why should Palestinians whose ancestors lived in Palestine for thousands of years be forced to leave their homeland so that Europeans who have lived in the area for a hundred years could take over?

Do you believe that the genocide of Native Americans was justified?

[AZSkiffyGeek]

37. So Egypt is preventing Gazans from leaving

How is that Israel's fault again?
And what does that have to with Native Americans?

[AntivaxHunters]

80. This is absolutely gross

[Cuthbert Allgood]

90. Yikes.

That's a horribly bad take.

[AntivaxHunters]

42. It's a prison

Let's call a duck a duck.

[Doodley]

51. If you were an Israeli, perhaps you know somebody murdered by the attacks by Hamas,

and you didn't know if there were Hamas terrorists living in your community, would you say tear down the wall?

[AntivaxHunters]

58. I'd address the root cause to fix the problem for good

While the attacks by Hamas were absolutely gross & disgusting, it's important that we look at the problem & solve what caused those retaliatory attacks.

Remember, what Hamas did is a symptom of a much larger conflict. Addressing the battle doesn't solve the war.

[Torchlight]

61. Addressing one actor only solves even less.

[AntivaxHunters]

65. I believe quite the opposite

It's not a 1 bad actor scenario.
The Palestinian people however are victims.

[Doodley]

75. Hamas is a terrorist organization whose stated aims have included destroying Israel.

They have regularly launched rockets and sent suicide bombers into Israel. So you'd take down the wall to this "prison" I assume, let all the terrorists mix with the Israel population, and then address the root cause? What does that mean? How are you going to resolve it? Easy to say "I could fix this!" Trump says that a lot. But harder to say how. Israel is necessary as a safe haven for Jews, after being persecuted for millenium and after six million were murdered. Do you want to take that safe haven away? If not, tell me how you are going to resolve this?

[AntivaxHunters]

94. Peace is the answer

Do you support #LandBack for us First Nations people?

[Doodley]

99. Peace isn't an answer. It isn't a strategy. It isn't a solution. It is a desire, an objective.

I don't see how your question is on-topic.

[AntivaxHunters]

107. Peace is the only answer

War & violence is not.

[yagotme]

113. Sometimes one must engage in war/violence to attain peace.

Should we have not reacted after Pearl Harbor? Would the Japanese have given us "peace"?

[AntivaxHunters]

121. I can't speak to hypotheticals

That situation also is very different.
There's no 75 years of ongoing conflict which lead up to that attack.

[yagotme]

123. So, I ask:

What is Hamas' definition of peace? What do they want? Clue: Look at second line of their charter...

[EX500rider]

119. Peace is the answer is a slogan not a working solution

[sarisataka]

84. I absolutely agree, it is important to hear both sides

The Land of Palestine
2. Palestine, which extends from the River Jordan in the east to the Mediterranean in the west and from Ras al-Naqurah in the north to Umm al-Rashrash in the south, is an integral territorial unit. It is the land and the home of the Palestinian people. The expulsion and banishment of the Palestinian people from their land and the establishment of the Zionist entity therein do not annul the right of the Palestinian people to their entire land and do not entrench any rights therein for the usurping Zionist entity.

The Zionist project

14. The Zionist project is a racist, aggressive, colonial and expansionist project based on seizing the properties of others; it is hostile to the Palestinian people and to their aspiration for freedom, liberation, return and self-determination. The Israeli entity is the plaything of the Zionist project and its base of aggression.

15. The Zionist project does not target the Palestinian people alone; it is the enemy of the Arab and Islamic Ummah posing a grave threat to its security and interests. It is also hostile to the Ummah’s aspirations for unity, renaissance and liberation and has been the major source of its troubles. The Zionist project also poses a danger to international security and peace and to mankind and its interests and stability.

The position toward Occupation and political solutions

18. The following are considered null and void: the Balfour Declaration, the British Mandate Document, the UN Palestine Partition Resolution, and whatever resolutions and measures that derive from them or are similar to them. The establishment of “Israel” is entirely illegal and contravenes the inalienable rights of the Palestinian people and goes against their will and the will of the Ummah; it is also in violation of human rights that are guaranteed by international conventions, foremost among them is the right to self-determination.

19. There shall be no recognition of the legitimacy of the Zionist entity. Whatever has befallen the land of Palestine in terms of occupation, settlement building, judaisation or changes to its features or falsification of facts is illegitimate. Rights never lapse.

20. Hamas believes that no part of the land of Palestine shall be compromised or conceded, irrespective of the causes, the circumstances and the pressures and no matter how long the occupation lasts. Hamas rejects any alternative to the full and complete liberation of Palestine, from the river to the sea. However, without compromising its rejection of the Zionist entity and without relinquishing any Palestinian rights, Hamas considers the establishment of a fully sovereign and independent Palestinian state, with Jerusalem as its capital along the lines of the 4th of June 1967, with the return of the refugees and the displaced to their homes from which they were expelled, to be a formula of national consensus.

So the best Hamas will offer is, in essence, a truce. The war only ends when Israel is wiped off the face of the earth.

[Mosby]

118. +1

[uponit7771]

191. +1

[GuppyGal]

156. a building in which people are legally held as a punishment for a crime they have committed or while

[onecaliberal]

43. Really? Is that why Americans are stuck and cannot get through there? Yes, it is a prison and

no they can't go to Egypt, the border is closed.

[Doodley]

48. Americans are stuck there because there's a war. And it's Israel's fault that they can't go

through Egypt?

[onecaliberal]

66. Yes, they are waiting at the border there. I saw with my own eyes last night on MSNBC with their

reporting. It's why Secretary Blinken went there.

https://www.al-monitor.com/originals/2023/10/nearly-600-americans-stuck-gaza-amid-egypt-talks-over-rafah-aid

[AntivaxHunters]

69. Yes when Israel is bombing the escape route

[muriel_volestrangler]

114. It does prohibit the flow of people to or from the Mediterranean

See https://www.ochaopt.org/sites/default/files/Gaza_A0_2023.pdf - last updated in September, before this conflict. The prohibited area entirely surrounds the area they are allowed to fish in.

[oldsoftie]

70. So there's a wall on the Jordan side too?

[yagotme]

125. I looked. Tried to look.

The only "border" I could find, was the river. No mention of a wall, fortifications, whatever. A prison with only 3 walls ain't much of a prison...

[lapucelle]

186. The Palestine Marathon was held in Bethlehem on March 27, 2015.

https://www.972mag.com/photos-running-between-the-walls-in-palestine-marathon/

[edhopper]

25. I am so shocked

you would have another anti-Israel post. Really shocking!

[AZSkiffyGeek]

33. You'd think those 30 doctor's (sic) would have a better way to help out the Gazans

Than repeatedly posting decades old articles that aren't even about Gaza.

[womanofthehills]

142. More like anti Netanyahu post

And anti his defense minister. Now, the numbers are climbing to 85% of Israelis want Netanyahu gone.

Israeli defense minister: “No food, No electricity, No fuel, No water. We’re fighting human animals.”

He’s talking about ordinary, innocent, civilians including KIDS living in Gaza.

He has NO RESPECT for Human Rights!

Link to tweet

?s=46&t=YZgyyp4w_z7vW3neKxa6cQ

[edhopper]

148. I agree

But this is an anti-Israel post, about a wall built in 2002, long before Netenyahu.

[IronLionZion]

34. That wall is like 100 times more badass than Trump's wall

and it still didn't stop Hamas from getting through.

It mostly screws innocent people who have nowhere to go when rockets are coming down on their homes.

[moonshinegnomie]

44. thats becasue hat wall is in the west bank and hamas is in gaza

[IronLionZion]

49. Gaza has a serious wall too.

[Doodley]

79. If Mexico was led by a terrorist group who wanted to destroy America, and they regularly sent

suicide bombers and launched rockets, how would you feel about a badass wall then?

[IronLionZion]

81. Hamas got through the Gaza wall

which is heavily fortified with electronic surveillance and sensors underground too.

[Doodley]

86. And? Are you saying you'd want the wall to come down if you lived in Israel? Be honest, if

we were in the same situation and Mexico was led by terrorists who wanted to destroy America, would you want a wall or not?

[IronLionZion]

89. No, I would like a humanitarian solution for nonviolent non-Hamas Palestinian people to live life

[Doodley]

92. Israel has been doing that for long time.

[yagotme]

93. The spots they hit weren't that "heavily fortified".

Iron bar fence with concrete base won't hold up against very much explosive. Some of the initial attacks were against commo/command structure by the "wall". Not heavily defended, as most of the soldiers that were killed didn't have their weapons readily available (a discussion for another thread). Paragliders. This was well planned, well-practiced, and for a long time.

[womanofthehills]

147. It was easy for Hamas to get through ( in 15 places no less)

Because Netanyahu took 90% of the army guarding the Gaza border and sent them to the West Bank to protect the 3 new settlements he made there. Then, it took 6 hrs for any troops to arrive at Gaza border. That’s why 85% of Israelis are now calling for his removal. Let alone he had intelligence from Egypt and US that Hamas was planning something big.

[TeamProg]

39. K&R.

[onecaliberal]

40. It is much worse now. Bombed out buildings scatter the landscape.

[Arazi]

106. Nope. That picture isn't from Gaza

[jaxexpat]

41. Once upon a time, there was a UN.

People everywhere thought it would impose a " time out" on evil doers. Then came the MIC's cold War. Now all we have is mistrust and sad faces.

[twodogsbarking]

54. I don't have a solution but I fear there will never be one.

Imagine living in a more oppressive government. Vote to keep one out.

[brooklynite]

60. Since you picked a photo of the West Bank...

I’ll point out that it ISN’T an”open air prison since there’s also a border with Jordan.

[AntivaxHunters]

85. It's an open air prison

And that sure doesn't look like anything BUT a prison.

Palestinian people have their movements controlled.
Please read the article. Thank you.

[brooklynite]

95. Is there some reason West Bank residents can't freely travel to Jordan?

[Zeitghost]

111. Borders often have barricades of some sort

And when the people on the other side of that border regularly try to cross over to kill you, those barricades get bigger and stronger. It's not a prison wall keeping people in, it's a castle wall keeping people out.

The border between Tijuana and San Diego has giant fences topped with razor wire and patrolled by armed men, is Mexico an open air prison? Of course not. It's simply the reality of many international borders.

[lapucelle]

185. He picked a photo of the West Bank dated March 27, 2015. That was the day of the Palestine Marathon,

held in Bethlehem.

https://www.972mag.com/photos-running-between-the-walls-in-palestine-marathon/

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

https://www.972mag.com/photos-running-between-the-walls-in-palestine-marathon/

[brooklynite]

73. Is it your assertion that...

If there was a peaceful two-State solution, Hamas would not exist?

If, so, based on what evidence?

[AntivaxHunters]

91. Yes but no

What I believe needs to happen is peace.
I also believe the UN needs to go into Gaza & hold free & fair elections. The last election held in Gaza was in 2006.

It's important though that we recognize this conflict is far larger than simply Gaza. All of Palestine should have elections.

We need real solutions that will end this conflict once & for all . I think we can all agree on that. At least I hope so

[brooklynite]

98. And if Hamas doesn't want to hold elections?

[AntivaxHunters]

109. That's why I said the UN

[brooklynite]

115. Name a country when the UN rolled in and deposed the existing Government.

Answer: they don’t do that. And even if they did, explain why China and Russia would vote to permit that.

[ripcord]

116. The U.N. doesn't have any forces to deal with Hamas to force an election

The U.N. gets its forces from member nations and no one is going to send troops into Gaza.

[yagotme]

117. What if Hamas likes the way things are, and doesn't let the UN in...

Who's going to force Hamas to allow elections? Who's going to make sure Hamas doesn't interfere/pressure citizens during voting? Peace can only be obtained by both sides participating.

[redqueen]

124. Looks like the consensus on DU is there's no alternative

but to back the ultra right wing netanyahu government's decisions on how to respond to this most recent attack.

I'm done.

[yagotme]

127. The alternative is for both sides to stop attacking each other.

No single person/group is going to change that. It is change that has to come from within the countries, because external change leads to more war and killing. One cannot wave a wand, or hand out millions/billions, and just permanently change the minds of a culture.

[redqueen]

129. There's plenty that can be done

but that would require actually forcing the ultra right wing to government of Israel to abide by international law, which clearly they seem fine with ignoring since there's no consequence other than to further inflame tensions which they seem perfectly happy to do.

[yagotme]

131. So, what is Hamas going to be "forced" to do?

It's BOTH sides, remember...

[redqueen]

133. No longer exist, isn't that the plan?

But even after they're gone, Israel has to stop the apartheid and follow international law

[yagotme]

136. Why is the border restriction there? Why is Israel bombing/attacking Gaza?

This isn't happening in a vacuum. Israel didn't spend all that money fortifying their borders with Palestine for no reason. Militants have been attacking Israel pre-Hamas, and I bet you a candy bar that militants will STILL be attacking Israel long after the political party Hamas is gone. The party may fade, but the people that ran it are still there. Israel is not clean on this, no. But put all things on a scale, let's see what weighs out.

[BannonsLiver]

128. Ok.

[womanofthehills]

150. Agree - the people of Israel want Netanyahu out

Like 85% of them now, but many here have no problem with him.

[AZSkiffyGeek]

179. Who here has expressed support for Netanyahu? nt

[tritsofme]

101. The biggest reason they have resisted new elections

and the reason that Abbas is in year 18 of his 4 year term is that the widely expected result is a Hamas landslide.

[AntivaxHunters]

112. According to who?

Only 7% of the people living in Gaza today voted for Hamas in the last election

[tritsofme]

120. Abbas, the "president" in year 18 of his 4 year term, has cancelled elections several times

Usually due to fears of Hamas fully taking over.

[AntivaxHunters]

122. Democracy is important

Cancelling elections is a fascist tactic

[tritsofme]

126. Liberal democracy is important.

When elections give power to Nazis in Germany or Hamas in the Palestinian territories, they are certainly important, but not necessarily in a good way.

[AZSkiffyGeek]

141. Where did that number come from?

[GuppyGal]

157. They've been treated unfairly? MLK Jr. would approve of their tactics I guess. Being treated

unfairly doesn't give their leaders the right to do what they do. Maybe you'd feel better if no iron dome existed.

[AntivaxHunters]

193. How did you reach the conclusion MLK would be ok

With how they're treated?

[GuppyGal]

197. Sorry I was being sarcastic LOL nt

[AntivaxHunters]

199. Ohhhh ok gotcha

Whoosh! That went over my head

[Bluesaph]

159. I think this is to protect from suicide bombers

Unfortunately, terrorist organizations don’t care who they harm or what consequences follow from their terror doctrine. Countries have a right to protect their own citizens.

I feel for the Palestinians who are victims also of radical right wing terrorist organizations.

[johannsyah]

171. I am so shocked

to see another anti Israel post from the same author.


Nope.

[AntivaxHunters]

180. I'm really not a fan

Of people like Netanyahu who's are far right corrupt fascist like Trump. 2 peas in the same pod. Corruption charges & all.

And I'm also not a fan of far right religious whackos like Hamas who treat women like it's the 9th century.

[AntivaxHunters]

194. It's about humanity

I don't support the oppression of people

[JCMach1]

172. Physical apartheid yes... prison- no sorry

That's leaning into the propaganda...


I had a number of students in the UAE from the West Bank and Gaza. They would actually probably be pissed off if you called Palestine that.

[AntivaxHunters]

195. I know a plenty

Who will tell you it very much is an open air prison