I am Antiwar, am I alone here?

[Brenda]

Does anyone really believe these are evacuation ships?

At least two more Navy ships carrying thousands of Marines are heading to the Israeli coast to help in any potential U.S. response to the fighting on the ground between Hamas and Israel, two Defense Department officials said Monday evening.

The USS Bataan Amphibious Ready Group, including up to 2,400 Marines from the 26th Marine Expeditionary Unit, will stage in the eastern Mediterranean Sea in the event they are ordered to evacuate Americans caught in the fighting.

https://www.politico.com/news/2023/10/16/marine-ships-israel-evacuation-00121870

I like Joe but he will be making the biggest mistake of his life if he puts US troops into this situation.

[DavidDvorkin]

1. Antiwar as a general principle or in any and all situations?

[SpamWyzer]

127. Peace is

better than conflict. In general. Conflict arises, but moral duty is to seek compromise in search of peace.

[MarineCombatEngineer]

137. The problem is that Hamas doesn't want peace or compromise,

their stated goal is the total annihilation of Israel and the death of all Jews, so how does one compromise with them?

[ShazzieB]

175. Exactly.

This kind of thing is why I will never be a pacifist.

War is hell, like General Sherman said, but we do not always have a choice.

[LiberalLovinLug]

178. Yes. One of their main goals was to anhilate any chance at advancement towards any kind of peace

After Israel and Saudi Arabia had just signed an historic agreement.

https://www.politico.eu/article/saudi-arabia-israel-deal-tatters-hamas-palestine-war/

The Saudi-Israel deal is in tatters

Biden had hoped to crown his presidential term with a historic peace agreement between Israel and the most powerful Arab state — that now seems unlikely.

The Washington-choreographed diplomatic dance between Israel and Saudi Arabia was supposed to culminate in an exchange of ambassadors before the next United States presidential election. But due to Hamas terrorists who killed an estimated 1,200 Israelis and took another estimated 100 hostages this week, this deal is now under threat.

[jaxexpat]

296. The whole middle east problem was exacerbated when Trump abandoned the Iran treaty

which Obama/Kerry had crafted. Republicans are ham handed and ALWAYS choose violence whenever there's a chance of a profit. It's never a moral choice of war v peace with capitalism. Send the rich to do the house-to-house fighting and the problems and questions will sort themselves out to the great satisfaction of all with even a chance for justice.
If one is genuinely anti-war, they should expect hostility for their position and politics in the US. It's not considered patriotic to deny the monster its gluttonous fill of death and destruction. Just watch the commercials.

[paleotn]

156. First steps certainly.

But if you think that works all the time, that's just fantasy land.

[Hekate]

2. Ah, you're back

[Brenda]

10. What does that mean? nt

[ancianita]

117. +1

[jmbar2]

276. Good catch

I was waiting to see how long it would take.

[hlthe2b]

290. Perhaps

DU has magically gotten younger, less "senile," less complaining about physical or mental health issues or grieving the loss of loved ones--you know all the things the OP posted that they find "appalling" about the site. Now we are going to learn the history of war and peace from the non-reading ("learning history is a waste of my time better spent on social media" ) crowd. This should be good...

[Think. Again.]

3. You're not alone...

...there are always peaceful, compassionate, and positive ways to resolve any conflict, even when faced with an opponent that doesn't see it that way.

Violence, destruction, and mutilation are never acceptable.

[Brenda]

12. Thanks TA

[EX500rider]

62. So when the Japanese struck Pearl Harbor what is your response?

[Think. Again.]

68. Try to stay focused, please.

[EX500rider]

70. I am focused, here's your quote:

there are always peaceful, compassionate, and positive ways to resolve any conflict

WWII was any conflict
So what was the peaceful, compassionate, and positive way to solve that?

[Think. Again.]

75. I do not have...

...a definitive strategy to resolve a situation that I barely know anything about (and because I am not a foreign relations expert living in 1941).

But I appreciate your asking my advice anyway.

[EX500rider]

78. All right, more recently, what was Ukraine's peaceful way out of the Russian invasion?

[Think. Again.]

95. I'm not an international relations expert, but...

...it seems one potential way to stop russia's ability to continue violently attacking Ukraine would have been for the global community to immediately cease all engagement with russia, especially in the oil and food trading and financial sectors, but including communications, all essentail supplies, and anything and everything else. I doubt russia could continue their offensive if they were forced to self-sustain every aspect of their existence.

[EX500rider]

104. The International Community tried

But you can't get all countries to go along with it therefore China and India Etc are still buying their oil and trading with them.

So that's really not a workable solution.

So either Ukraine meekly submits to being conquered or they fight back and you have a war, a just war in most people's opinion.

[Think. Again.]

105. And now you see why...

...those of us who are 'anti-war' would like to see more (all) people (including China and India, etc) to be anti-war also.

[EX500rider]

107. I imagine everyone would like all countries to be more anti-war

[Think. Again.]

118. Well then ...

...let's keep posting more threads like this!

[edisdead]

138. yeah and in the meantime the people

yeah and in the meantime the people being murdered, raped, and pillaged should just sit tight.

What a fucking crock of shit.

Pretty easy for people to sot and say others should be anti-war.

[Think. Again.]

144. you do understand that...

...war is the cause of the murder, rape and pillaging you're talking about, right?

So if you're anti-those things, you too, are anti-war.

[edisdead]

151. I understand that you are trolling the forum.

You do it frequently.

[Think. Again.]

247. My frequent engagement in these public discussions...

...is not 'trolling' simply because you don't agree with my sincere positions.

That's not what trolling is.

[EX500rider]

149. The problem is I don't think it affects the people it needs to like the leaders of China and Russia

[Rebl2]

136. 👆👆👆

[betsuni]

122. An oil embargo was one of the main reasons for Japan's attack on Pearl Harbor.

[Think. Again.]

128. Obviously it wasn't a strong enough effort.

[betsuni]

155. No, the opposite. Majority of Japan's oil supply came from the U.S.

[EX500rider]

158. And why did we have an oil embargo?

We were trying to stop Japan from warring on Manchuria and China.

Or should we just have ignored things like the Rape of Nanking and continue to trade with Japan and basically supply and fund their War Machine?

[betsuni]

166. I was responding to #95.

[EX500rider]

171. Oh, sorry, I just see that a lot on line

"The Japanese attacked us because we cut off their oil, they had too!"
Ignoring exactly why we cut off trade.

[edisdead]

133. So basically your just coming up with naive responses.

[Think. Again.]

161. Didja read the question...

...that I, some rando on an anonymous discussion board, was asked?

Of COURSE I'm going to give a naive response. Unless you're a top international military expert, you're response would be naive also.

[enid602]

280. Ukraine

God forbid those pesky Ukrainians bogart funds that should enable israel to continue to force 85000 pregnant Palestinian women to boil toilet water. They need to bomb the shit out of Rafa to keep international aid from being distributed. They need to bomb the holy fuck out of Gaza to give illegal settlers the cover they can need to terrorize Palestinian towns in the West Bank.

[pnwmom]

130. It wouldn't be hard to learn about how the US got involved in WW2,

and if you did you'd understand more about why most people aren't pacifists in every situation.

[Think. Again.]

135. (big sigh)...

...okay, I'll go out and suckerpunch someone then, I guess.

Just cuz it's the right way to be, right?

[MarineCombatEngineer]

140. And the consequences of that would be your ass getting kicked or

charged with A&B or both.

[Think. Again.]

145. soooo....

....now we're against violent aggression?

Sounds very anti-war to me.

[MarineCombatEngineer]

157. You misunderstand me,

if you came up to me and punched me, then I have every right to defend myself against you.

[Think. Again.]

163. You know there are (or used to be) limits on the...

...amount of force that can be used in self defense.

[MarineCombatEngineer]

169. There still is,

if I were to, hypothetically, retaliate against someone assaulting me, and I were to continue to beat them even after the threat is neutralized, then I could, and would, probably be charged as well.

[Think. Again.]

170. So getting my ass kicked isn't a possibility after all.

[MarineCombatEngineer]

176. It would depend upon the person who is assaulted and what the laws in your state are.

I, myself, practice non confrontation unless it's forced upon me, i would rather walk away then get in a fight over the dumbest things.

Case in point, I was making a delivery to a WalMart and I went inside to buy some supplies for my truck, I was wearing my USMC Vietnam Veteran ball cap and had a Fuck Trump shirt on, some idiot decided to confront me for my shirt, I looked him straight in the eyes and pointed to my cap and said I had earned the right, as an American citizen and a combat vet, to criticize any politician I wanted to, then I walked away, finished my shopping and went back out to my truck without further problems.

[Think. Again.]

179. Then why can't you see...

...that that is exactly what the OP is calling for?

[MarineCombatEngineer]

182. It's an honorable, yet naive position to take,

especially when it's forced upon one to have to take action.

Let me ask you this, how does one compromise with a group who's stated goal is the total destruction of your country and the elimination of you as a people, and then attacks you with the intent of fulfilling out their stated goals?

I hate war, I've seen it up close and personal, but that doesn't mean I'm anti war, it means I'm anti useless war, I'm not naive enough to believe that turning the other cheek is always the way to go.

Peace out
Daniel

[Think. Again.]

188. Disable their ability to...

...cause total destruction of your country and the elimination of you as a people, and their ability to continue attacking you, through peaceful means.

And yes, that's possible.

If there's anything that human history has taught us, it's that subjugating and oppressing groups of people without them even knowing they're being subjugated and oppressed, has been a common pastime for ages.

[MarineCombatEngineer]

195. And herein lies the problem

how do you peacefully do this if your stated enemy has zero intention of being peaceful?

I'm not addressing the past deeds of both Israel and Hamas, I'm talking about the here and now, Israel was viciously attacked by a terrorist org who's intent was to murder as many Jews as possible and take hostages, that, IMHO, warrants military action against such terrorists.

[Think. Again.]

200. Crush them financially?

Distract half their military with infighting?

Create a scandal that undermines their trust in their leadership?

Give them a problem more important than their fight?

Destroy their confidence in themselves with psychological manipulation?

I'm just pulling things off the top of my head because I am not an international affairs expert, but gee whiz, there are a thousand different ways to stop them from being aggressive without killing and maiming their military or their civilians.

[yagotme]

208. Crush them financially?

So, you are for cutting off funds for Palestine. 'Cuz, that's 1 place where Hamas gets it's money. If you want to give peace a chance, you have to understand what each side has to give up. If one side isn't interested, not much you can do, peacefully.

[Think. Again.]

210. or...

...you could just go after the funds that are keeping the troops stocked and fed.

Hackers are good at targeting specific accounts.

[yagotme]

222. I wonder why Israel hasn't tried this approach years ago.

Maybe the Hamas slush funds aren't that easily traceable.

[Think. Again.]

228. well....

....from what I can tell from this thread, it seems quite a lot of people think the knee-jerk reaction of shooting back at people who are shooting at you, is the only possible choice, when the idea of simply stopping them from being able to shoot at you makes those people very pouty.

In the broader world, maybe the gun culture runs a lot deeper than some folks want to admit.

Maybe, some people don't actually want the solutions they claim their return fire is meant to achieve.

I can't make any sense out of it, but I would think that if you don't want to be at war, it's probably best to figure out how to stop it than to escalate it, and there are a LOT of ways we have learned through hman history to bring groups of people to their knees without touching them at all, the imposition of poverty being a very successful one.

[yagotme]

230. Shooting back at someone who is shooting at you,

is a perfectly reasonable response. The hard part is reading the crystal ball, and determining who in the future is going to be shooting at you, and sanction them so they can't. Cue: Mission Impossible theme...

[Think. Again.]

317. You really think that's difficult?

[yagotme]

320. Yes.

You have to sanction someone sufficiently ahead in the space/time continuum so that they don't attack you. Shades of Minority Report. How well did we do with the 9/11 "incident"? Who could we have sanctioned, to prevent that one?

[Think. Again.]

327. Hang on...

...now you're saying that 9/11 couldn't have been prepared for (and therefore protected against) after all the intel we now KNOW we had ahead of time and ignored?

[yagotme]

377. Yes, to a point.

There are ALWAYS threats against this nation, as well as others. The problem is, sorting out which are actual, viable threats, and which are just noise. If we prepare against each and every threat against us, no one would ever be able to get on a plane, take a bus, train, etc. All terrorists would have to do, is publish a threat against XYZ, and watch us jump through the hoops, restricting our own population, spending money we already don't have. Making a threat that appears to come from a different country, so we embargo THAT country, royally pissing them off, and making a new enemy, while the original country plans to eliminate us. The spook world is complicated, and some of the spooks like to keep it that way, so they have a job.

[Think. Again.]

379. I guess I'm having a hard time...

...believing that there were so many credible mass-violence threats coming at us leading up to 2001, on the level of and as clearly known to us as the activities of the 9/11 group, that we had no choice except to sit back and keep watching them do whatever they wanted.

If that's the case, then I definitely still stand firm in my position that we should be putting much more effort into the non-violent pre-emption of threats.

[yagotme]

380. It's not like AL Qaeda published it's goals in the newspaper.

The intel people had to take snippets of this and that from here and there, and add them together. Someone wanting to learn how to handle a plane in the air, bereft of taking off/landing? Pre-9/11, not a super big deal. Hindsight, of course, means everything, but when these things happen in isolated incidents, in different locations, it's hard to put pieces together sometime. Our security agencies weren't playing together well at that time, interservice rivalry and all, and that didn't help one bit. Bush the Lesser, I believe, tried to cut that crap back after 9/11, but I can't really say if he accomplished anything or not. And, remember, we have to be right 100% of the time. The terrorists only have to be right once.

[Think. Again.]

381. No, no nononono.

We were fully aware of them all being in the country, who they were, who their connections were, money being supplied, them taking flying lessons, communicating back forth for months, even their focus on the trade center and their movements around the U.S.

And probably a lot more.

All of the needed info was right ther in front of us, easy to add up.

You'r trying to make it sound as if we couldn't have figure it out ahead of time if we had tried to, but the truth is, we didn't try to. We don't try to stop violent aggression before it happens. But we damn well jump to it when theres fighter jets to deploy and military contracts to sign.

[yagotme]

382. What I'm saying is, NOW we know we had all the info.

So would locking them up/kicking them out of the country BEFORE they did anything unlawful be possible? Maybe, maybe not.
OBL was backing this, and may have had the ear of the State Dept if we had tried to kick them out. "Suspicion" of a crime doesn't fly well in court, without some kind of proof. Some of the proof usually is the crime committed. My point is, even though they were acting very suspiciously, PRE 9/11, we weren't taking things as seriously. Yes, we should have, as this was the second attempt at the WTC, the first under Pres Clinton's watch. THAT should have been our wake up call, but the "secret" services didn't want to share info, holding their playing cards close.

[Think. Again.]

383. You write:

"So would locking them up/kicking them out of the country BEFORE they did anything unlawful be possible? Maybe, maybe not."

ABSOLUTELY POSSIBLE! We were tracking them daily, and we knew who was backing and supporting them, and creating false premises to do things to people is pretty much an American tradition.

And I agree with you that now we should be taking things more seriously, and I would add that that would mean focusing our attention on non-violently, pro-actively, working toward whatever peaceful solutions or disruptions we can find for any given situation that even smells like it could lead to violent aggression. Anywhere that we have any sway.

But I suspect we'll just continue to handle those things the way haliburton, blackwater, raytheon, etc. tells us to.

[MarineCombatEngineer]

212. Fair enough.

You and I will probably not agree on this subject, but we can disagree amiably.

Peace out
Daniel

[Think. Again.]

215. We seem to not agree on a lot of things...

...but I deeply appreciate your consistent respect and willingness to shake hands, smile, and call an endless debate a draw.

Thank you.

[TwilightZone]

238. You know nothing about WW2...

and yet you're quite positive that it could have been avoided. Curious.

"I know nothing about the topic, but I'm also completely right about it" isn't a terribly compelling argument. The poster doth protest too much, methinks.

[Think. Again.]

246. Correct...

...as I stated and as you quoted, I know very little about any wars, certainly not at the level of miltary leaders that would be appropriate for discussing tactics and strategies, though I commend your success in achieving such high ranking!

So, since the topic of discussion was not about any specific wars or situations (until that topic was raised by others and I responded accordingly) and my claim is that, yes, all wars do have the potential for being avoided (which is a different topic than specific individual wars and just an obviously true statement), I stand by my post.

[PatrickforB]

265. It is good to know about WWII. Check my post immediately below. n/t

[Think. Again.]

271. Thanks for pointing toward your other post...

...WW2 certainly was a complex and extremely interesting episode, but to be honest, other than the fascinating look at human behavior that can be had from studying war activities, the basis of pure violence that war is all about is kind of repulsive to me.

[PatrickforB]

283. Indeed. It was repulsive to my father, too. He served in the battle for New

Guinea in 1944-1945. He had a friend, Herb, who was in Patton's Third Army as it pounded its way into Germany. During the course of his service, Herb was part of the liberation of several Nazi death camps. They were Dora-Mittelbau, Dachau, Mauthausen, and Buchenwald. Herb said what our guys found there was repulsive.

The Nazis, you see, had a 'final solution' which was essentially to kill all European Jews. Seriously. They killed six million of them in camps like the ones above, and other evil places like Auschwitz-Birkenau. In November 1940 the German SS herded 380,000 Jews into a ghetto enclosure in the city of Warsaw. Over 80,000 Jews died as a result of the appalling conditions, overcrowding and starvation. In July 1942 the deportations to death camps began. That was the plan all along.

On April 19, 1943, the Warsaw ghetto uprising began after German troops and police entered the ghetto to deport its surviving inhabitants. Jewish insurgents inside the ghetto resisted these efforts. This was the largest uprising by Jews during World War II and the first significant urban revolt against German occupation in Europe. By May 16, 1943, the Germans had crushed the uprising and deported surviving ghetto residents to concentration camps and killing centers.

If you want to read a good book about this uprising, Mila 18 by Leon Uris is great. And he also wrote one called Exodus about the birth of Israel. Both are very good.

Also if you want to see a true account of the German slave-labor camp Płaszów run by Amon Goeth, you can watch one of Liam Neeson's outstanding performances in Schindler's List. I highly recommend this movie.

That is probably enough to get you started, and if you really want to delve into it, William Shirer's Rise and Fall of the Third Reich will fill you in about oligarchs and how they introduce fascism as a last gasp when it looks like they will lose their profits. Fascism, you see, is when capitalists offer the illusion to the masses that they will get what they want without actually giving it to them. We see this here, now, with Trumpy's 'populist' movement.

Warm regards, and really do watch Schindler's List if nothing else.

[Think. Again.]

288. Thanks again!...

...and I absolutely agree with you about the direction that the rightwing "populist" movement is headed.

I strongly believe that, having recognized the danger we're facing if the American neo-facsists gain more strength, we need to immediately nip all that in the bud before it becomes a conflict that so many people would want to use to justify bloodshed.

[CentralMass]

359. In their conquest of southeast Asia in the 30's lead up to WWII

Imperial Japan killed millions of civilians in a brutal fashion.including enslaving and working/starving them to death, rape, murder and other atrocities. Lookup the "Rape of Nanking". It took them attacking us at Pearl Harbor to pull us into the war in the South Pacific. Something like 45% of American POW' died in captivity at that hands of the Japanese. Some were starved and tortured. There was the infamous Batan Death March. Among the war crimes that were prosecuted after they surrender were water boarding and other torture. Doctors performing vivisection on prisoners, "the systematic ampution of limbs to see how long the torso could survive".
Our entry into the war ended one of the most brutal regimes on the planet.

[Think. Again.]

361. And people STILL...

...argue that war is acceptable.

[CentralMass]

362. Stopping evil is necessary. In your "take" on this

there seems to an acceptance or at the very least the turning of a blind eye to attacks by Hamas.
They killed 1,400 in their attack. Then they disappear into the cities to effectively use the civilian population as a human shield. While they continue to launch rockets at Isreal and execute other attacks.War begets war.

[Think. Again.]

363. WHOA! Slow down, back up...

....there is absolutely nothing at all that I have written that even hints at acceptance or tolerance of Hama's violence!

You are either trying to frame my words in a falsely negative light or you have reading comprehension challenges.

Either way, do not involve me in some fantasy political position that I do not hold.

[CentralMass]

364. I stand corrected.

[PatrickforB]

263. Good point - my dad fought in the Pacific and Mom was a Rosie the Riveter.

But if we look at the antecedents of WWII, the Republicans were isolationist through the 20s and 30s, and did not want us to support Britain against Nazi Germany. There were a lot of people here who were of German ancestry, and many were prominently pro-Germany - Lindberg, Joe Kennedy, and of course Henry Ford was a noted anti-Semite.

The best we could do until Pearl was Lend-Lease. The Japanese Empire had invaded China, Korea and Vietnam. We saw the Japanese occupation of key airfields in Indochina (Vietnam), as a threat to our hold on the Philippines. So we froze Japanese assets on July 26, 1941, and on August 1, established an embargo on oil and gasoline exports to Japan.

Japan responded by attacking Pearl in December 1941, and we declared war against Japan shortly after. The Republicans still would not have let us go to war with Hitler, but Hitler stupidly declared war on us. This opened the gates for us to join with the Allies to crush Hitler, Mussolini and the Japanese Empire.

Was it justified? Yes. It cost this world upwards of sixty million lives to get rid of the old Axis.

Korea? China invaded Korea. This aggression couldn't be allowed to stand. But the 38th parallel line of demarcation was iffy. Basically doing that created a bloody stalemate.

Was our war in Vietnam justified. Nope. It was a war began by Wall Street so shareholders could make more profits.

Iran? Afghanistan? The Dirty War in Argentina? Chile? Nicaragua? All about profits. Oil. Gas. Drugs.

If you move the rock and look at the squirming maggots underneath, it is usually an old white male hand grasping for more profits.

But this Hamas deal? Israel has to defend itself, especially after getting blamed for the hospital. I like to think that was an accidental strike by an Islamist Jihad or Hamas missile, but it's being used to gin up a fever of hate against Israel and Jews in general. We need to step in.

When the smoke clears though, and hostilities cease, we need to work with Israel to ensure that the Palestinian civilians have access to jobs, housing, healthcare and schools. This was an act of terror, and I have always maintained the war on terror can only be 'won' economically by insuring the people the terrorists claim to represent have access to better lives - hope, in other words.

But yeah, the current war for Israel's survival is in fact justified. I don't think there is any negotiation with Hamas because they are committed to destroying Israel and killing all the Jews. They need to be smashed.

[Cha]

159. That's not an answer .. that's called

a deflection.

[Think. Again.]

167. Yes, I agree...

...changing the subject from the evacuation of U.S. citizens in Isreal today to a question about military strategy in World War 2 is DEFINITELY a deflection.

[ShazzieB]

186. You made a very broad, global pronouncement, and you have refused to back it up.

You said: "...there are always peaceful, compassionate, and positive ways to resolve any conflict, even when faced with an opponent that doesn't see it that way." (Underlining added by me)

People have responded with examples of actual historical events that led to war and asked you to apply your pronouncement to how war could have been avoided in those cases. Your replies have been to the effect that you don't know enough about these well-known examples to say.

That is a cop out. If you can't support your stance that war is ALWAYS avoidable by applying it to actual examples, then you don't know enough to say whether war can ALWAYS be avoided.

[Think. Again.]

190. It is not a cop out....

....I know there are many ways to cook fish.

I have never cooked a fish or watched anyone else cook a fish (seriously, I hate seafood).

If you asked me to state one way to cook a fish, I could not answer.

Yet, I know, there are many ways to cook a fish.

[ShazzieB]

199. Insisting that war can ALWAYS be avoided is not the same thing.

Certainly there are many different approaches to foreign relations, diplomacy, etc., just that there are many different ways to cook a fish.

The problem is that you have stated that war can ALWAYS be avoided. That is incredibly broad. There are many things that can be tried to avoid war, but there is absolutely NO guarantee that there is ALWAYS going to be something that will work in EVERY case.

You said yourself that you're not an international relations expert. That in itself tells me you are not qualified to state that war can ALWAYS be avoided, in ALL cases as you have stated. It's clear to me that you're making a pronouncement about a matter that you have only a limited understanding of.

It would be lovely IF war was always avoidable. Peace is preferable to war, but if peace can only be achieved by unconditional surrender to an enemy who wants to destroy you, the price is higher than many of us are willing to pay.

[Think. Again.]

204. I'm assuming...

...you're not an international relations expert either (forgive me if I'm mistaken).

So, by your logic, you are not qualified to state that war can NOT always be avoided, in ALL cases.

[ShazzieB]

211. No, I'm not a foreign relations expert.

But it's not on me to prove a negative.

If you are going to make such a broad, sweeping statement as "there are always peaceful, compassionate, and positive ways to resolve any conflict, even when faced with an opponent that doesn't see it that way" (underlining added by me), it's on you to back that up. If you can't, it's on you to admit it.

I agree that there are peaceful, compassionate, and positive ways to TRY TO resolve conflicts. I also believe that it's a good idea to try those things first. I do NOT agree there is always going to be something that will work in every case.

[Think. Again.]

213. Okay, I agree...

...I stand by my statement there are always ways to do it, and I agree that those ways are (definitely) not always used.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

258. Should Lincoln have let all the Southern States secede and take all their slaves with them?

[Think. Again.]

267. Wow...

...we're really travelling far from the original topic of whether conflicts can resolved without using physical mutilation, destruction, and death to resolve them, but that's good! I like letting discussions meander wherever they may lead!

So, no, I don't think we should have allowed the nation to break apart and I absolutely do not think we should be a slave-holding country.

What's your position on those topics?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

270. Violence

Violence should always be the last resort and when it's resorted to it should be attached to a larger goal, lest it be nihilism.

[Think. Again.]

272. I'm certainly glad you feel that way!...

...but you brought up the question of whether we should have let the country divide into 2 countries, with one of them being a slave-holding country. Do you think that would have been a better situation? Is that why you're curious about I think of it?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

273. I was providing an example where violence was justified

"Yet, if God wills that it continue until all the wealth piled by the bondsman's two hundred and fifty years of unrequited toil shall be sunk and until every drop of blood drawn with the lash shall be paid by another drawn with the sword..."

[Think. Again.]

274. oh, I guess you missed my point...

...my position on war is that violence is never justified because there is alaways some other way to resolve a conflict than to resort to physical mutilation and death.

(By the way, is that quote from Harry Potter? It is isn't it! Oh, It's been so long since I've read those books! Great stuff!)

[DemocratSinceBirth]

275. SMFH

"

(By the way, is that quote from Harry Potter? It is isn't it! Oh, It's been so long since I've read those books! Great stuff!)"

You're patronizing me and can't distinguish between Harry Potter and Lincoln's Second Inaugural. If you have some free time google Lincoln's Second Inaugural.


ON EDIT- I want to congratulate you for likely being the only member of DU not to be familiar with Lincoln's Second Inaugural.

.

[Think. Again.]

287. Could that be true?....

....am I really likely to be the only member of DU who wouldn't recognize Lincoln's second inaugural address???

[betsuni]

289. Yes.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

292. Snort

[Think. Again.]

293. Why do I suspect....

....you're both outright lying just to harass me?

A general question for all DUers:

Would you immediately recognize a random line from Lincoln's 2nd inaugural speech?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

300. I have enormous respect

I have enormous respect for the intellectual capacity of our fellow members of this august community and believe they can distinguish the work of the 16th president from the work of J.K. Rowling, and humbly request you join me in that belief.

[Think. Again.]

328. So which one is it....

...that I am the only DU member who wouldn't instantly recognize a random line from Lincoln's 2nd inaugural speech?

Or

...that I don't believe any member of DU could guess if a random line is from Lincoln or Rawling?

You are commiting what's known as 'gaslighting' on me. Stop doing that.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

341. Not Rawling, Rowling.

Have a nice day. And I continue to encourage you to have respect for the intelligence of all our fellow members.

[Think. Again.]

343. Respect is earned....

...there is no way I would respect a member who consistently harasses and gaslights other members.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

348. There is no need to be abusive and insulting.

We are all part of an awesome and beloved community.


ON EDIT- We are all part of an awesome, intelligent, and beloved community.

ON EDIT- (2) Your verbal aggression is making me feel unsafe in what should be a safe space.

[Think. Again.]

352. Then you might consider....

...reading my posts literally, as they were written and intended, and not with the mindset of gaslighting people.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

354. Before you post

Before you post please keep in mind this is an intelligent and beloved community and a safe space to many. Thank you.

[Think. Again.]

356. Thank you for your suggestion.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

358. You're welcome.

[hlthe2b]

372. How about we leave the combat on the battlefield (or not) and not bring it here?

[Think. Again.]

373. Thank you...

...it really is getting tiring having to defend myself from multiple attack-responses to any post.

[betsuni]

322. ...

http/

[Think. Again.]

329. https://democraticunderground.com/?comforum&id1034

[betsuni]

330. What?

[Think. Again.]

334. That's the link...

...to the music appreciation forum.

[betsuni]

344. Thank you ever so!

[Think. Again.]

351. No problem...

...keep marching!

[DemocratSinceBirth]

291. Great stuff

(By the way, is that quote from Lincoln's Second Inaugural? It is isn't it! Oh, It's been so long since I've read it! Great stuff!)

[hlthe2b]

294. Well, you already admitted you know NOTHING about WWII (or any other major war) or history in general

So, yeah, I'm not surprised you would be unable to differentiate a passage from Lincoln's 2nd Inaugural address from Harry Potter.

Yes, history matters--even if it does take you away from 140-character posts on social media and require you to read a book--oh, the horror, the horror!

Ok, I'm putting my snark aside, and in all sincerity, it would do you a world of good-- for whatever your future aims-- to learn some history. Read my sigline as a substantive reminder. I truly hope that you will. (and yeah, someone gave me the same lesson delivered in a similarly somewhat snarky way some years ago. I LISTENED).

[Think. Again.]

297. I actually work in...

A field that deals with the preservation of Historic elements.

And I'm very interested in the human journey to this point and how it can guide our future path.

It's ol'-timey politics trivia and human bloodlust that I have no interest in.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

305. Are there not lessons we can learn from our 16th president?

[Think. Again.]

306. Did I say...

...I wasn't interested in the man, Lincoln?

My apologies, I didn't mean to say that.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

307. Just making sure. That's all.

[Think. Again.]

308. It seems to be a thing around here...

...how people try to re-frame someone else's words and meanings by throwing curveball questions.

I spend most of my time just trying to re-iterate what I originally said before it was manipulated by someone else.

[PatrickforB]

266. You're right, you know. War is horrible, but cannot always be avoided.

Britain found out about that when Neville Chamberlain appeased Hitler by ceding him the Sudetenland in what is now the Czech Republic. I asked my dad one time about this when I was a kid because Dad fought in WWII, and he said, "Well, we had to do something about Hitler. The guy was taking over a country a day."

To use an analogy, sometimes when you're getting bullied, you have to stand up and fight back. Israel's doing that now, and we need to be helping them. Because if they don't Hamas will cheerfully kill them all and wipe Israel off the face of the earth. That's the way it is, and why we must help.

[Think. Again.]

268. I have to disagree...

...I firmly believe that no matter what the reasons for the conflict may be, there are always a variety of ways it could solved without the use of destruction and violence.

Sure, the bang-bang-shoot-em-up knee-jerk violence reaction called war is probably the most efficient, and from this thread alone we can see that it's a very popular method of conflict resolution that some folks seem to be deeply passionate about using, but that in no way means that all the other methods don't exist.

In fact, anytime any other method of conflict resolution is successfully used rather than the physical violence method, we really don't even remember in the long run that any conflict ever happened at all, do we?

[brooklynite]

313. "there are always a variety of ways it could solved without the use of destruction and violence."

Whatever those ways are never seem to get described.

[Think. Again.]

314. Described?...

...they are never even developed!

And that's my point in a nutshell.

We have hundreds (if not more) military warfare strategists in our own American military alone, not counting the thousands more all together throughout the world, developing, and describing, ever-more destructive ways to blast people, property, and whole cultures to bits, but never do you ever see any international societal experts focusing on any other method of rendering an aggressor incapable of continued violence.

We pretend that the only possible way to incapacitate an aggressor is by bombing their suburbs.

It's just bloodlust waiting for plausible deniability.

[brooklynite]

316. So no strategy exists because nobody's trying?

[Think. Again.]

319. Exactly!

We have plenty of military strategists figuring out the quickest way to physical mutilate entire communities, but where are the social, cultural, technological, financial, psychological, etc, etc strategists sitting around a smoky room arguing over how who has the best idea to take down an aggressors ability to be aggressive?

[ShazzieB]

284. Yes, Chamberlain is a great example.

What a mess he made with that. Poor Czechs.

And Htler eventually invaded the rest of Czechoslovakia (as it was known at the time) anyway, and shipped most of the Czech Jews off to the death camps, among other awful things. Nice try, Neville.

I recently read Prague Winter, Madeleine Albright's memoir of the war years, and I learned so much about what happened in that country during WWII. (Great book, btw, highly recommend if you haven't read it.)

[PatrickforB]

286. Prague Winter. I'll try it! n/t

[Jedi Guy]

76. So what, Hamas just needs more hugs?

Should the Israelis sit down with them, one pint of ice cream for each side, and then hug it out after the crying is done? Go out for a team-building afternoon of mini-golf and go-karting? Trust falls?

If there's a "peaceful, compassionate, positive" way to resolve this conflict, what is it, exactly? Be specific.

[yowzayowzayowza]

97. Pacifism is a fairy tale about a world without bullies. n/t

[paleotn]

162. Adolf Hitler and Vlad Putin would disagree.

That's Genghis Khan rolling his eyes by the way. Here's mine.

[NickB79]

168. The Nazis needed to be wiped out. Full stop

Their core belief called for the extermination of other races.

There was NO peaceful resolution to their regime. It is frankly disgusting to even suggest such a thing. Some murderous mindsets don't deserve peace or sympathy in the least.

And today, Hamas' own charter calls for the extermination of the Jews and the destruction of the Israeli state.

Likewise, there is no peaceful resolution with Hamas as long as they have that mindset.

[Think. Again.]

172. Disable their ability...

...to accomplish "the extermination of the Jews and the destruction of the Israeli state."

Through peaceful means.

Done.

[ShazzieB]

189. Oh, that sounds SO simple and easy! 🙄

I'm sure no such thing has EVER occurred to anyone else.

[Think. Again.]

192. They are a group of people...

If there's anything that human history has taught us, it's that subjugating and oppressing groups of people without them even knowing they're being subjugated and oppressed, has been a common pastime for ages.

[AZSkiffyGeek]

254. Neville Chamberlain has entered the conversation...

[ShazzieB]

259. LOLOL!

I'm sure he will have something to contribute to the discussion!

[SouthernDem4ever]

312. How to do it

[Think. Again.]

315. That's a great point!

...so many people think it's simply impossible to do a given thing, how laughably silly to think a person could play a flute by blowing in here and placing fingers there! ....as the segment ends with someone playing a flute...

[SouthernDem4ever]

342. I think you missed the irony

but oh well.

[Think. Again.]

350. I'm pretty sure...

...that irony is the whole point of Monty Python humor.

The skit had a bunch of no-nothings pretending they know HOW to do everything, like playing music on a flute, (or peacefully settling international conflicts) and the audience laughs at how those things couldn't possibly be done, by those people.

Then the skit ends with music being played on a flute by someone who can do it. That person isn't even part of the discussion, but it shows that yes, these things can be done. Just as there are people who actually practice Gynecology, another aspect of the joke.

The gist is that just because some people claim they know how something can (or cannot) be done when they have no experience doing it, doesn't mean we should listen to them about whether it CAN be done or not.

Laugh at them yes, listen to them, no.

(and before you respond, you might want to read the numerous replies I've posted stating clearly that I do not have the experience or know-how to accomplish non-violent resolutions of any given conflict, but I do believe that can be accomplished.)

[SouthernDem4ever]

353. I was responding to ShazziB's post 189

That was who it was directed at. And yes, it was making fun of people who have simple answers, as was that post.

[Think. Again.]

355. My apologies...

...I use a phone for DU and becuase of the scrolling set-up for mobile devices, when threads get long, it's easy to lose track of which post follows which other post.

I'll be more careful in the future.

[Think. Again.]

206. Do you realize...

...that hitler's hold over his troops and followers was purely psychological and that an equal but opposing psychological effort on those people would have disabled his ability to carry out the things he did?


(Please don't risk breaking the DU rules with personal attacks, it's just frustration you're feeling, it'll go away)

[Cha]

187. Yes, that's the REALITY and

Bumper Stickers are Not helping.. not even a little bit.

Fuck the Butchers of HAMA

[inthewind21]

253. Were

they "wiped out"? Huh, that's news. Who were those people marching in Charlottesville chanting "Jews will not replace us" aligned with? How about all the white supremacists sporting their swastika tattoos and wearing their Nazi garb clearly showing us all they are supporters of the policies/actions of Hitler and the Nazi's? The people who firebomb and shoot up Synagogues? Who do they more often than not align with? How do they even exist? I thought they were wiped out? A bunch of people were wiped out, soldiers and citizens alike but the ideology remains to this very day. Lather rinse and repeat where terrorist groups are concerned.

And there lies the problem. An action is taken by (fill in villain group here) , people in the non-villain group instantly react with "wipe them out". Wipe out the Nazis, wipe out white supremacists, wipe out the terrorists. And war is waged. Economies are strained, citizens suffer and whole new groups of enraged people are created calling for "wipe them all out". Problem is, the "wiping out" only applies to living breathing humans. The ideology will remain long after the killing stops. So in that sense, yeah, you sure wiped them out. But you didn't address the actual problem.

"Some murderous mindsets don't deserve peace or sympathy in the least." Huh, you think some of those people just trying to live their lives that had most of their family "wiped out" merely because they had the misfortune of being a citizen of (insert country here) might just think that same thing about those who came in and "wiped out" their family? And...the cycle continues.

[redqueen]

4. No, you're not alone. War is a racket.

It always has been.

[Brenda]

324. Ain't that the truth. nt

[MarineCombatEngineer]

335. Hi there.

I'm still waiting for your answer on whether or not you have any experience of how an MEU deploys?

[AntivaxHunters]

5. No you aren't alone here

I am as well

[Zeitghost]

73. So Ukraine should....

n/t

[SickOfTheOnePct]

6. No one ever claimed

That the US naval vessels were evacuation ships, at least not that I’ve heard of.

[herding cats]

40. Where is this new silliness coming from?

I haven't heard it yet. Americans in Israel were evacuated via Royal Caribbean's Rhapsody of the Seas ship.

This is common knowledge and easily verified.

[Hekate]

114. That kind of thing...

…appears to be a recently-acquired hobby.

[PortTack]

115. Exactly...the placement of the 2 aircraft carriers are there to send a message especially to Iran

Stay out! A show of force, not evacuation ships

[walkingman]

7. I am totally anti-war - there are no winners in war and we have a terrible track record since WWII.

I also think it ridiculous if the US were to put "boots on the ground" in Israel. I do think that we need to do everything possible to keep this from spreading but I think if we send US troops it will quickly escalate.

[anciano]

8. No you are not alone here ....

[marybourg]

9. Right, 'cause the rest of us are pro -war.

Just like we’re “pro-abortion”.

[Hekate]

11. Bingo

[lapucelle]

245. And ships sent to facilitate an evacution are not ships to facilitate an evacuation.

[redqueen]

15. Antiwar sentiment predates this country.

Stop it.

[marybourg]

19. All human behaviors predate this country.

So ?

[paleotn]

164. Antiwar sentiment at any cost is the precursor to oppression.

Please.

[Think. Again.]

18. Thatcs a nasty assumption to make...

...it's obvious the poster is looking for others who feel strongly about the position they take on war.

Planting your own twisted ulterior motives on anyone's post is not really the way for us all to maintain a healthy discussion board.

[marybourg]

21. I managed to state my position without attacking

the poster personally, as we’re required to do by the TOD.

[Think. Again.]

24. Great...

...you cleverly managed to harass someone without suffering any consequences, ain't you grand.

[Cha]

177. Look who's talking.

[Think. Again.]

180. "I know you are but what am I?"

classic.

[Cha]

193. More Deflection.

[Think. Again.]

194. are running out...

...or just getting bored with sport arguments you started?

[Cha]

196. Too bad you don't Practice what you Preach.

[Think. Again.]

201. MORE projection????

C'mon now.

[Cha]

205. THINK AGAIN.

[Think. Again.]

207. Yep...

...that's usually when you run out of steam.

[lapucelle]

252. Does this make sense to you because it doesn't to me.

are running out...

...or just getting bored with sport arguments you started?

I've never heard the English expression "sport arguments".

Have you?

[Think. Again.]

374. Sorry...

...as a typo I left out the word "you" in "are you running out?"

Also, arguing for sport seems to be a very common pastime.

[lapucelle]

375. You said "sport arguments" not "arguing for sport".

Idiomatic expressions can be tricky.

[Torchlight]

38. The irony of your assertion is heavilty weighted.

[Think. Again.]

45. Considering it was admitted to...

...in post 21, there is no irony.

[Torchlight]

54. Deeper the irony sleeps

While children do naught yet play and weep

[betsuni]

57. +1

[Think. Again.]

67. Stop with the gaslighting.

Find some other way to make yourself feel superior, I'm not yours to play with.

[AntivaxHunters]

77. I'm reminded of this

[Think. Again.]

98. Thanks. You're right.

[Think. Again.]

183. At the moment...

..my main concern is fending off completely innapropriate attacks on DU.

[edisdead]

143. no it is obvious the OP is looking to make silly arguments.

[Think. Again.]

150. If you consider...

...an argument against international violence to be a silly argument, I have to disagree with you.

[ShazzieB]

214. "Twisted, ulterior motives"? Really?

I don't see anyone here with "twisted, ulterior motives." That's quite an accusation!

[Think. Again.]

218. You're right...

...No one here does have ulterior motives, but as my post 19 (that your responding to) clearly states, in post 9, the poster is planting false ulterior motives on the OP...

They write:

"Right, 'cause the rest of us are pro -war. (sarcasm emoji)
Just like we’re “pro-abortion”. "

The OP said nothing about anyone being "pro" war, or pro-abortion. The OP asked if anyone else was "anti-war", that's all. They were obviously hoping for some support in their position of being against the whole thing and specifically about the risk of escalation if the U.S. were to engage there.

The accusation in post 9 that the OP had ulterior motives of accusing "the rest of us" of anything, are absolutely unfounded and should not have been planted like that.

[gratuitous]

20. It's an odd thing

I know that I run into it all the time. Folks who say they are anti-death penalty, but when a particularly heinous and infamous crime occurs, they're all for a death sentence.

There are indeed committed and dedicated people against war in all instances, but the only time they get a hearing is after the bullets are whizzing through the air, the bombs are dropping from the sky, and the missiles are blowing people to pieces. At that time, the "sort-of" anti-war people demand an answer: What do you do now? Two weeks ago nobody cared what the anti-war people thought or recommended, but now that a miracle is needed, the anti-war people get button-holed for an instant solution.

[AntivaxHunters]

55. Perfect

The death penalty & guns.

[Big Blue Marble]

27. Why do you put words in OP's mouth?

There is much justification of this war on DU regardless of the costs to the people, especially the children,
of Gaza and the West Bank. She was stating her position as separate from that.

You are the one who has chosen to take it personally. Perhaps, you are feeling a bit
defensive.

[marybourg]

31. Yep, defensive in all its senses ,

meanings and ramifications.

[betsuni]

28. +1

[AntivaxHunters]

47. Nobody has said any such thing

[yagotme]

13. Key words, "evacuate Americans".

Scenario: If a group of Americans are trying to leave, and are held at gunpoint, the USMC will be dispatched to ensure the civilians leave as safely as possible. Up to and including firing upon militants who fire at them.

Now, I agree with the point about where we shouldn't get involved, but with our own people there, well, that changes the picture a bit.

[SickOfTheOnePct]

14. Sorry

Just saw the last line about possible evacuation for those trapped.

Possible, but unlikely to be needed.

[maxsolomon]

16. Yes, I believe they will attempt to evacuate American citizens if needed.

I do not believe they intend to assault Gaza from the sea.

[W_HAMILTON]

17. Are you claiming Biden is pro-war?

He is probably doing this as a precaution, so that we aren't caught flat-footed if Iran tries something or the situation expands beyond just Israel/Gaza.

I have full faith in Biden that he is not looking for war and he certainly is not """pro-war."""

Do you disagree?

[marybourg]

25. But apparently those who are

“anti war” want us just to turn the other cheek if Iran attacks.

[Think. Again.]

29. So you believe...

...there could only be two possible positions: war or turn the other cheek?

[marybourg]

35. If retaliation does not occur, the other

cheek has been turned.

[Think. Again.]

43. Nonsense.

...luckily, life isn't so simple(minded).

[Earth-shine]

22. I heard that their presence is for intimidating Iran so that they stay out of the Israel-Hamas

conflict.

I'm sure the ships serve many purposes.

[MyNameIsJonas]

23. You're not antiwar here...

You're anti-response.

It's the same logic that applies to those who opposed supporting Ukraine under the banner of being antiwar. No, you're not antiwar. Pacificism in response to hostile action is nothing close to being antiwar.

[Think. Again.]

26. I don't think...

...the original post mentioned anything about what their thoughts on a response should be?

[MyNameIsJonas]

34. I guess I'm confused by the poster's claim they're antiwar then.

What the hell does that have to do with anything if not in the context of a response?

[Think. Again.]

41. Yeah, no...

...really, the poster did not say anything at about what they feel a response should be.

[MyNameIsJonas]

52. What is the post about then?

Please tell me. Thanks.

[Think. Again.]

60. The post is about about...

...the possible plans for an evacuation of American citizens from a dangerous situation overseas.

[Hekate]

72. I keep asking the anti-response folks what they believe is a good reaction to being attacked...

In fact I’ve been asking since Ukraine was invaded and brutalized by Russia. The nearest thing I or anyone else gets for an answer is along the lines of: “Goodness me, homes and hospitals are being reduced to rubble by invaders, children and babushkas are being slaughtered — give the aggressors everything they want and then we shall have peace.”

Ukraine did not strike the first blow, and neither did Israel. History tells us over and over that appeasement does. not. work. Negotiation only works when all sides are willing to engage in it. When one side is hell-bent on exterminating the other, then what? Putin’s aim is to reconstruct the USSR with all that entails. Hamas’s aim is to drive all the Jews into the sea.

I would seriously like an answer that doesn’t involve statements like how the US is a bad actor at all levels. I would seriously like an answer to how you get “peace” when the other guys come at you with guns blazing after having told you what their intent is.

[Think. Again.]

80. I seriously doubt anyone said...

..." give the aggressors everything they want and then we shall have peace.”

I can only speak for myself, but I firmly believe there are always more peaceful ways to resolve conflict, and even defend against violent aggression, and even respond to violent aggression, that just blasting the shit out of everything.

[Hekate]

91. Ah well, I might have misinterpreted the repeated calls to let Putin have all of Crimea seeing as ho

… he was already there (i.e. he’d just invaded in Feb. 2022) and how it used to belong to the USSR in the old days (when Stalin deliberately created a famine that starved millions to death) . The calls to let Putin go ahead and take what he wanted were always on the basis that Ukrainians were being killed (by Russian soldiers) and that we must have peace.

As I say, I may have misinterpreted all that.

[Think. Again.]

103. Wow...

I have never seen any statements like that.

[Hekate]

110. Probably because you joined in May 2023 and the invasion was more than a year prior...

Good times, good times.

[Think. Again.]

120. And those posters simply went away...

....weird.

[Hekate]

123. Nope. Not gone. Not forgotten.

[Think. Again.]

129. Silent then?...

...because as I've said, I haven't seen anything like that.

[Hekate]

134. Not silent, either.

[Think. Again.]

139. ooooh, ...

....you're so cryptic.

[Native]

336. +1000

[Brenda]

56. Super powers with nuclear weapons vs poor people

It's an extremely uneven battlefield in Gaza.

I'm antiwar so much I believe the USA should stop giving money and arms to Israel. Afterall, we've given them a quarter of a trillion dollars since WWII and here. we. are.

[muriel_volestrangler]

30. What's your position on Ukraine?

That may show if you're antiwar or not (you'd be in the distinct minority here - most, including me, think Ukraine is fighting a just war, and it's OK for other countries to support them).

[Think. Again.]

50. I believe the poster...

...clearly stated if they're "anti-war or not".

[Hekate]

74. It is kind of you to keep answering for the poster

[Think. Again.]

86. Yeah...

...it's almost like I'm "supporting" a country that's been attacked because I don't believe the attack was right.

[Brenda]

92. Not answering for me.

Responding to posts about me.

[muriel_volestrangler]

241. But you haven't answered about Ukraine either

So I still don't know if you're "antiwar" or not. So far, you've just expressed your opinion that it's bad for the USA to get involved in the Israel-Hamas conflict. That alone does not make you "antiwar".

[ecstatic]

209. I wasn't asked but my opinion on the Ukraine situation is different

I think the Ukraine situation is limited to one thug and his cronies - Putin. Unless I'm missing something, Russia's military is a joke. I honestly feel like the US has the capability to discreetly drone his ass and move on. Don't even cop to it. Hell, we've done a lot worse. The fact that we have not done that and instead have spent billions trying to fight him via proxy / super old technology makes me wonder about our capabilities, but that's another matter.

However, the conflict in the Middle East brings several billion people into the mix. It's not easy because there's no way to isolate and eliminate the agitators and move on. It's an ideology. There's no specific enemy that can be targeted that would stop the movement.

[Think. Again.]

248. I agree with your general position...

...but I do believe that identifying and targeting key individuals is possible and would, with other efforts to disrupt the aggressors functionality and viewpoints, be quite successful at stopping the mass violence.

[Ms. Toad]

32. You're not.

But those of us who are anti-war here are being regularly accused of being pro-Hamas hiding behind pacifism.

I've been anti-war since I was around 12. And I'm the daughter of the first conscientious objector in Nebraska, so I come from a family of people who are anti-war. It's hardly something I ginned up for this particular conflict.

I've been watching, but relatively quiet here - I just don't see a point at the present time in engaging with people who insist on gaslighting anyone who suggests that being anti-war/pro humanity (both Israeli and Palestine) is actually pro-Hamas. The discussion won't go anywhere here, and raising that discussion here won't make a whit of difference in the world.

[MyNameIsJonas]

49. I think George Orwell said it best.

I think there's truth to his comments. You can question Israel's response but understand the need to respond. Do I think you're pro-Hamas? No. Do I think 100% pacificism emboldens groups like Hamas? Absolutely. How can I not? I think the same with those who want to remain neutral in Ukraine. That's emboldening Russia. They're the aggressor here. If you oppose supporting Ukraine under the guise of being antiwar, I don't think it necessarily means you're pro-Russia but it absolutely is aiding Russia indirectly.

Just as pacifism aided Hitler in the 1930s.

[Ms. Toad]

197. Thanks for making my point. n/t

[ShazzieB]

217. Well-stated!

[jmbar2]

278. Excellent point

First time I've seen that George Orwell quote. Very prescient.

No rational human being is pro-war. It is an evil that is unfortunately often necessary to stop a greater evil.

[Think. Again.]

53. Thank you...

...for posting that, well-said.

[mike_c]

59. dang, you said everything I was thinking...

...and you said it better than I could. Thanks.

[redqueen]

94. Well said. nt

[Celerity]

126. Big recco

[Xolodno]

148. The minister who married us almost 25 years ago...

...was a conscientious objector during WW2 (RIP). Ended up in prison, maybe they served time together. He was targeted because his father was instrumental in getting a lot of CO's away from the draft and just doing civilian work at various hospitals, national forestry, etc. They flat out told him, because of what he did, they were going to make sure when his son's time came up, he would be in prison.

My father as a CO worked at a hospital in lieu of the Vietnam draft. I often go to seminars and also advocate for CO.

And I partially agree, with some here, the discussion won't go anywhere. But even during more "peaceful" periods, we get ignored. But at the same time, its important to bring this up to let others:

1. They are not alone.
2. They are taking the morally correct stance.
3. Realize that the violence did not have to happen.

This cycle of violence will continue until as long as the mindset is to secure peace is to prepare for war.

Prior to this conflict, we all know Egypt warned Israel. Read an article today, that many Arab nations were warning foreign policy advisors in Biden's Admin that things were getting out of control and something may happen. I think Biden needs to fire some people.

[Ms. Toad]

237. My father was a CO during the Korean war.

He was about to be sent to Jordan, but the project where he was headed was bombed just before he got there. Then he was sent to Mexico, and they discovered mom was pregnant with me. The host site didn't want to be responsible for anything that might happen during the pregnancy, so they were returned to the Philadelphia area for the remainder of his service.

And I responded to this post for one of the reasons you cited - letting the OP know she was not alone.

Still not interested in carrying on a conversation on DU in the current context. I'm doing a fair amount of advocacy on around the trans-hostility on this site, and get a lot of flack for it. I feel I can make a bigger difference on that issue than I can on this one. The gaslighting is far worse than usual. I'll limit myself to addressing factual (mis)information.

[Big Blue Marble]

33. Sorry your declaration of being antiwar is being attached.

The war drums are pounding on DU. It is hard to break through, so many have lost
touch with their humanity and compassion.

[MyNameIsJonas]

51. It's kind of funny you have the Ukraine flag as your avatar...

Many who purport to be antiwar also feel the exact same way about supporting and aiding Ukraine.

[Think. Again.]

63. Sympathizing and supporting people who are violently attacked...

...is not the same thing as returning that attack.

I support the Ukrainian people in their suffering also and would be willing to show that support by flying their flag. That says nothing about how I feel they should conduct themselves in the face of the attack that is causing their suffering. It only says I want to show my care for them.

[Hekate]

82. So how *do* you "feel Ukraine should conduct themselves in the face of attack " ?

[Big Blue Marble]

64. I never said I was anti-war.

I am not anti-war. I recognize her declaration and noticing all the attack.

It is not funny at all. I am proud to stand with the Ukrainian People.

[Brenda]

325. Thanks, I appreciate it. nt

[malaise]

36. Ditto

Madness

[Irish_Dem]

37. I am in general antiwar, but any country has a right to defend itself.

Europe had a right to defend itself against Hitler.
The US had a right to defend itself after Pearl Harbor.
Ukraine had a right to defend itself against Russia.

[AZSkiffyGeek]

39. And Israel has the right to defend itself

[relayerbob]

42. I am anti-war but even moreso

Anti-agression. If someone is invaded, they have the right to fight back. In the case of the Israel-Palestine situation, both have a long laundry list of atrocities. That said, Hamas does not want peace, and Russia is using this to trigger a wider expansion of his wars of conquest. We are there to get our people out, and to hopefully deter further escalation. We have nowhere near the firepower to get directly involved on the ground.

[Brenda]

71. Thousands of marines to get our (how many) people out?

Why are we moving so many of our forces to the area? Calling up thousands of troops?

Americans do not want to get involved in another costly war.

[MarineCombatEngineer]

81. #1.

It's Marines, not marines, and,
#2. There are a lot of logistical support Marines involved.

Ask me how I know because it has occurred to me that you have no clue of the way the Marines deploy and why there are so many Marines being deployed to help with a possible evacuation.

[Brenda]

106. You said you were taking a break for months

And you left for a short amount of time and now you're back.

Why?

[MarineCombatEngineer]

108. And you have deflected from my post.

Answer my post and I'll answer your post.

[MarineCombatEngineer]

109. Again,

do you have any experience with the deployment procedures of the US Marines?

[relayerbob]

121. Clearly not

Clearly, no understanding of any of what is happening over there.

[MarineCombatEngineer]

225. I'm just going to assume that your lack of an answer to my question

means that you have absolutely no clue how the US Marines deploy.

[hlthe2b]

255. I just happened onto your post to the other DUer. Why so combative/confrontational, Brenda?

Seems like it comes out of nowhere.

[MarineCombatEngineer]

311. Just to be clear,

I have 35 years experience of deployment procedures of the US Marines, what, pray tell, experience do you have of US Marine deployment procedures?

[yagotme]

220. OOOH! OOOH! I KNOW!!!!!

Pointy end of the spear is worthless without the rest of the spear behind it.

[MarineCombatEngineer]

221. And you win the prize.

[yagotme]

223. Another 4 years on the Rock???

BT, DT, thanks, but no.

Semper Fi

[MarineCombatEngineer]

224. Damn, ya got me.

Semper Fi.

[yagotme]

227. You know why they called it the Rock, right???

Go out somewhere, dig down 6-8 inches, that's what you start digging up. Had a rock sticking up in my backyard on base, just high enough to hit bolt on lawnmower blade. Thought I'd dig it out and be done with it. I was 8" out from the center when I quit digging, realizing I wouldn't have enough fill dirt to fill that hole. Filled it back in, got a sledge hammer, and pulverized the top 2' of it. Problem solved.

[MarineCombatEngineer]

234. Yep,

but still a beautiful Pacific island.

[yagotme]

235. Long as you didn't get worried about the rusty artillery shell sitting by the road when you drove by

Some farmer dug it out of his field and drug it to the road so EOD could pick it up. Sheesh. Biggest one I saw, I believe to be a 105. When the Camp Kinser commissary was being built, I believe they uncovered a 16" one day. (I got the MP blotters across my desk, at Bn HQ. Seems they were always stopping work there for some kind of ordinance. Even a bandoleer of '06.)

[Sgent]

44. If Egypt and Israel

can't come to a mutually agreeable way for foreign nationals to leave Gaza, then the only way to get American's out is via a boat that the IDF won't intercept (ie run the blockade). I don't see Israel intercepting a Marine amphibious landing craft being used to evacuate American citizens.

Marine Expeditionary Units are uniquely qualified for this type of operation, and hopefully there will be no gun fire at all.

[Xolodno]

46. Nope.

Pacifist and belong to a peace church. One thing when you study conflicts, they are almost always preventable. It's a failure of diplomacy that starts wars and in some cases, the political will to keep a frozen conflict going because it benefits certain actors. Unfortunately, psychopaths are often attracted to power and eventually get into government.

It does amaze me when someone says "lets look for a diplomatic solution" you get called an appeaser and say "appeasement never works!" while frothing at the mouth. Worked pretty damn well for JFK when he traded the missiles in Turkey and Italy for Cuba.

And I agree, no boots on the ground. Even if just as "advisors" as that has dragged us into war before. And history has show over and over again, we have the capability to defeat a foreign army, group, etc. But we keep failing when it comes to winning the peace.

[redqueen]

58. "when you study conflicts, they are almost always preventable"

THIS

[BlueCheeseAgain]

93. Okay, but once conflicts start, what do you do?

People, being imperfect, will not always manage to prevent conflicts. When Germany invaded Poland, or when Russia invaded Ukraine, what should the response have been?

[Xolodno]

116. This is exactly how conflicts start.

Rather than looking for acceptable avenues that everyone benefits, the first thing military leaders, politicians, war profiteers, etc. look at is if ABC situation occurred, what should be the response, or worse, should we be the aggressor first. I'm sure the USA, Russia, China, etc. all have invasion plans or outlines (depending on the nation) drawn up. But advocating or looking for a resolution that everyone benefits from is often tossed aside, as they approach everything like dealing with a street peddler in Tijuana. I've seen people haggle for over an hour over a stupid trinket. Always trying to get the "better deal" rather than just saving everyone some time and come to a reasonable price. And the fact I can use that comparison to many foreign policies, doesn't bode well.

And once conflict starts, people should be looking for ways to end it to stop the senseless loss of life. Hate breeds hate and often creates the conditions for further conflict and it just becomes and endless cycle. But lately in the world (because dynamics are obviously changing), looking for a peaceful resolution is becoming a bit taboo, violence must be met with more violence. There is no winners in wars, only casualties. But morally, many assume this is acceptable.

Plus WW2, the regime in Iran, Ukraine, etc. were all preventable. But when the attitude is shoot first, you aren't going to get to those resolutions or compromises.

I protested against both Iraq wars, got a lot heat doing that. Being an advocate for peace ain't easy, but for war, its the opposite.

[BlueCheeseAgain]

124. Maybe in retrospect WW2 was preventable.

But people aren't perfect. They don't have perfect foresight. The world failed to stop Hitler until it was too late. But on September 1, 1939, after Hitler has invaded Poland, how do you avoid war?

[Xolodno]

173. If you are trying to get me to say...

...closed the barn doors after the horse already left. Well, yes. Could have the war been shortened? Absolutely. There were military leaders who wanted Hitler gone as they knew what would come of his madness. Allies didn't seek them out efficiently. There was a battle plan and they stuck with it. A lot of lives could have been spared.

And I wouldn't say its because people are imperfect. It's a complete willingness to be absolutely dismissive of other solutions if it isn't the best outcome you want. Ukraine didn't have to happen. Gaza didn't have to happen. And what's worse, ideas to end this are just being ignored, because, it isn't what one or more interest groups wants. So more people die and the cycle continues. And myself and others just get the usual heat. At least I wasn't thrown in jail like our minister was during WW2.

[yagotme]

226. 30 Sep 1938.

Neville Chamberlain made the statement "Peace in our time", while waving a piece of paper that, in a years time, would be better suited for toilet paper than the peace document it supposedly represented.

[muriel_volestrangler]

242. Sure, WW2 had a better solution - Germany withdraws all its military from Poland

everyone stops building armies, and gets on with Volkswagens instead. But Hitler refused to withdraw from Poland. So what would you have done after he refused? Do you think that, after he'd gone back on his promise to not invade Czechoslovakia, that it would have been effective to keep on reminding him that he really ought to go back to his own country if he wanted prosperity? Do you think he'd have never invaded another country after Poland?

[mike_c]

48. you are not alone

Unfortunately, peace without justice is too often a smokescreen for oppression. I wish I knew what to do about that.

[jcmaine72]

61. No, you are not alone. n/t

[Happy Hoosier]

65. I am "anti-war" but not a pacifist.

I don’t advocate for using violence as means of achieving one’s political goals, when that’s a reasonable option.

Sometimes it’s not a reasonable option, usually because an opponent is using violence, and refuses to renounce it.

One can reasonably refuse to fight unilaterally.

[LiberaBlueDem]

66. Anti-war all the way

I find it hard to believe that so many are pro-war.

[marybourg]

279. I knew someone would say it eventually.

It was just a matter of who.

[inthewind21]

366. Well

if it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, over and over and over it's a pretty safe bet it IS a duck. Just sayin.

[Torchlight]

69. I think the vast majority of all posters here oppose violence

And see it only as a measure of last resort. I also think the force deployment is as advertised, security for evacuation preventing additional hostages from being taken. I'll take it as such until evidence shows otherwise. My imagination is much more active than my rational brain, so I have to force myself to follow the evidence over my gut.

[Just_Vote_Dem]

79. I'm anti Brussel Sprouts

Give me broccoli any day.

[ArkansasDemocrat1]

174. n/t

I am one with Newman here

Bacon wrapped brussels are magnificent and a family pleaser!

[roamer65]

83. There won't be ANY American troops fighting in the ME.

The American people have had enough of that shit.

[AntivaxHunters]

84. I want you to know

That you shouldn't need to explain your personal feelings of something to anyone. You are absolutely entitled to how you feel morally & ethically. You don't own anyone an explanation on a personal conviction.

Remember. You are not alone in your thoughts. There are many who agree with you.

Namaste & solidarity ❤️

[MarineCombatEngineer]

87. And there are just as many, if not more, who disagree with the OP,

that, in itself doesn't make one pro war or anti war, it means some have a differing opinion.

[AntivaxHunters]

99. Everyone is entitled to their opinion

But I don't see what the OP as saying so much as an "opinion" but a deeper conscious of morality & ethics.

[MarineCombatEngineer]

102. That may be true,

but it's, IMHO, coming acrosss as if you aren't on the same page as the OP, then you're pro war.

Just my opinion of course.

[AntivaxHunters]

111. I think there's lots of emotions floating around right now

[MarineCombatEngineer]

113. Yeah,

and I'm guilty of that myself, my mouth, or fingers, engage before my brain did.

We, as a community, need to tone it down some and I'm going to practice what I preach.

Peace out
Daniel

[AntivaxHunters]

119. Later Gator 👍🏼

[anciano]

90. 👆 This!!!

Beautifully said AntivaxHunters.
🙏

[AntivaxHunters]

100. Thank you

[Think. Again.]

249. I agree.

[Brenda]

326. Thank you.

The older I get the more surprised I am at how easily the masses can be swayed. We've seen this movie many times before.

[MarineCombatEngineer]

85. I'm a combat vet,

and I am very anti useless war, as most combat vets are, however, when faced with an enemy that is dedicated to your total destruction and proudly tell it far and wide, and then attack you, then you have the absolute right to retaliate and try to destroy them before they destroy you.

[EX500rider]

88. I am anti-wars of aggression, pro-war of defense

See the Ukraine defending itself from Russia, the US against Japan or Israel against Hamas.

[Sympthsical]

299. I think this is where most anti-war people land

Defense is fine, wars of choice and aggression or imperial purposes are not.

Unfortunately, anti-war and pacifism are often used synonymously.

They are not the same things.

[Jedi Guy]

89. You're framing this as if anyone who disagrees with your take must ipso facto be "pro-war."

No one here on DU, or at least no one I've seen, is "pro-war." None of us are thrilled or happy about the violence and death taking place in the Middle East.

Reality is more nuanced than that, though. There are times when war, as regrettable and terrible as it is, is justified. This is one of those times. Hamas launched an attack on Israel and murdered, mutilated, tortured, raped, and kidnapped Israeli civilians. Israel has not just a right to respond, it has a duty to do so to protect its civilians from further attacks.

This is particularly true since there can be no negotiating with Hamas. Israeli can't negotiate away its very right to exist. If you believe Hamas can be negotiated with or reasoned with, you are delusional. Hamas must therefore be destroyed, root and branch.

If Hamas hadn't launched that attack, all the people who have been killed in the fighting since then would still be breathing today.

[ShazzieB]

229. I agree 100%.

No one here on DU, or at least no one I've seen, is "pro-war." None of us are thrilled or happy about the violence and death taking place in the Middle East.

This times 1000. It was not clear to me what the op meant by "anti-war," and that made it feel like a somewhat loaded question. If "anti-war" means I hate and loathe war, then I'm in. If it means being absolutely opposed to any kind of military action, in any context whatsoever, I'm out. I can't honestly answer a question about whether I'm anti-war without knowing exactly what is meant.

But that's beside the point, which is that I agree 100% with this post. Every word. Thank you for making it.

[betsuni]

233. +1

[hlthe2b]

257. Yes. I agree with you.

These simplistic dichotomies of complex issues are really hard to take right now.

[WarGamer]

96. No you're not...

I feel that war is unnecessary in the 21st Century...

But sometimes wars need to be fought, even today.

I'm anti-war but with a dash of reality.

When I look at Ukraine... I see a just war of defense.

But as Noam Chomsky said... and I agree

"The West is eager to fight Russia in Ukraine to the last Ukrainian..."

[hueymahl]

365. To be fair, the war in Ukraine was arguably avoidable.

It may not have resulted in the ideal result that US and Ukraine wanted, but it was avoidable, and would have avoided 100,000's killed and wounded on both sides. A similar argument can be made for the current situation in Israel. Significant compromises present and past would be/have been required.

Unfortunately, trying to have a reasoned discussion about it is virtually impossible because most lack the historical context or are so hardened in their positions that they don't want to listen. The black and white responses to the OP together with the uniform attacks and offense taken for even raising the issue prove my point.

So OP, I support your stance. It is a moral one, and I stand with you.

[BlueCheeseAgain]

101. I think you need to define what you mean by "anti-war".

Do you mean all wars? Some wars? It would be helpful for the discussion.

I think most people (not just on DU) are against war. However, there's probably a range of responses as to when fighting an aggressor, is justified, or even required.

I would guess that the overwhelming majority of people here think World War II was a just war-- even a required one. A similarly overwhelming majority probably thinks the Iraq War was a gross mistake from the beginning. Would you count those people as anti-war?

[twodogsbarking]

112. Everyone may be against war but some are more against it than others.

I am some. Protesting war is often not accepted. History.

[Emile]

125. War, what is it good for? Absolutely Nothing

[MarineCombatEngineer]

131. ......

[Emile]

141. +1

[maspaha]

132. Very thought provoking...

I think war *may* be necessary as a defensive strategy, but never as a first strike and never involving innocents, or as the military calls it collateral damage.

As for myself, I am a conscientious objector. I will not participate in intentionally harming others. I graduated from college with a MSME and was offered jobs with defense contractors with just a phone interview from my CV posted in the Career center. I declined every one. The mere thought of something I worked on contributing to the death of innocents is not morally acceptable to me.

[MarineCombatEngineer]

152. Have you seen this movie yet?

Excellent movie about Desmond Doss, the only conscientious objector to ever be awarded the MoH for his actions during WWII.

[maspaha]

216. No, I'll look for it and watch it. Thanks.

[KS Toronado]

219. 3 times and will watch it again

Even looked Desmond Doss up on the internet.

[Javaman]

142. I'm Anti-War as well, but as nations around the world

Continue to follow and elect sociopaths, war, sadly, is her to stay.

Rather than scream in the night over the things I can’t do, I choose to donate to international peace organizations like OXFAM and international Doctors Without Borders.

Wondering why wars continue in the face of such human suffering will make you crazy

[TomSlick]

146. You are not alone. There are many principled pacifists here.

There are also many who are selective in their pacifism and object only to the recourse to violence by people with whom they disagree.

If a principled pacifist is prepared to accept their death and that of their loved ones at the hands of evil people, I admire the adherence to principle. I do not accept the principle but I admire principled people.

The US military exists to allow pacifists to sleep comfortably in their beds at night.

[KT2000]

147. Being anti-war

is an opinion, just like anti-abortion is an opinion. It does not hold any consequences to hold an opinion. Dealing with this savagery requires an action that will remove the murderers in much the same way the police have to stop gun massacres.

I wish it could be dealt with peacefully but there are decades of peace negotiations that have not worked. This is an unimaginable escalation that must be stopped. There are terrorists all over the world watching this.

[paleotn]

160. This! +1000

[paleotn]

153. 2,400 US Marines are not there to pull triggers.

The IDF has called up 300 freaking thousand! I don't think a couple thousand US Marines will augment the IDF's combat power to any appreciable degree. So please calm yourself.

Oh...and you know who dislikes war even more than you? Those in uniform who actually put their own asses on the line. Just saying.

[MarineCombatEngineer]

165. ......

Oh...and you know who dislikes war even more than you? Those in uniform who actually put their own asses on the line. Just saying.

YES, this right here.

[TiberiusB]

184. So, opposed to potentially making things worse

The addition of the carriers being a possible spark that leads to escalation of the conflict, and not suggesting taking a beating and doing nothing?

There really is virtually no chance Iran will attack, and Biden knows it. Iran, like the U.S. and Russia, leans on proxies to do its fighting, and avoids larger conflicts that would expose it to direct attack.

Ukraine is unique in that it has an intimate history with Russia as a former member of the U.S.S.R. and is the latest in the U.S.'s attempts to expand NATO right to Russia's border despite promising not to do so after the U.S.S.R collapsed. Going back to Iran, the U.S., as it has done all too often, deliberately undermined a democratically elected leader decades ago and installed the Shah. Everything since then has been a direct consequence of that interference. None of which is to excuse Putin's or the Ayatollah's actions, but instead to illustrate just how far reaching an "anti-war" posture actually needs to be. It doesn't mean waiting until violence breaks out and doing nothing.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

185. "I'm not against all wars. I'm against stupid wars."

[Cha]

191. I'm going with Pres Biden's Decision..

Not yours.

[lapucelle]

243. I guess "Biden is going to send troops" is today's "people are saying" talking point.

[betsuni]

250. Like Obama was going to drone everybody to death and start WWIII. Old stuff.

[MorbidButterflyTat]

198. "I like Joe

but he will be making the biggest mistake of his life if he puts US troops into this situation."

No. No. No. No. No. That is so effed up.

NO.

[ecstatic]

203. I believe it would be another NeverEnding, unwinnable war.

First, I don't understand why he's going there. It's not safe and if something happened to him, it would guarantee that we'd be pulled into some bullshit.

Second, as much criticism as President Biden got over pulling out of Afghanistan, I think it was the right decision because when you're in a hole, why keep digging? There was no safe and perfect way out.

Going to war will mean hundreds of thousands of people dead with no (ethical) resolution in sight.

[GuppyGal]

231. Yes you are alone. Trash thread and block

[Warpy]

232. Supposedly they're there to free and evacuate foreign nationals, especially USians

but anyone holding EU passports will also go. This includes but isn't restricted to Doctors Without Borders and other NGO relief workers in Gaza, in addition to people captured at the music festival.

I don't know how this is going to play out, but there are no good options for anyone here. The whole thing is appalling.

It looks like we're going to get dragged in, one way or another.

[Eko]

236. I am anti war. But I also know there are times when there is no other option.

Thanks,
Eko

[betsuni]

239. Marines headed to Japan to assist victims of the Tohoku earthquake and tsunami.

Operation Tomodachi. "Thousands of Marines" doesn't mean bad nefarious things. Democrats don't do war for profit. That's a Both Sides Neoliberal Warmonger myth.

[betsuni]

240. "Now, I'm not a pacifist. There are times when war may be necessary." Bernie Sanders.

[lapucelle]

244. I believe they are evacuation ships. What is your evidence for thinking otherwise?

The Marines would be tasked with any evacuation of American citizens from Israel, Gaza or Lebanon, and can also provide medical assistance if needed, the official added. The DOD officials were granted anonymity to discuss future operations.

The amphibious assault ship USS Bataan and amphibious dock landing ship USS Carter Hall can launch watercraft to ferry people from the shore back to the ships.

[yagotme]

318. Non-combat troops/personnel do the actual evacuations,

Marine Grunts make sure that they aren't messed with,

[onethatcares]

251. add me to the list

for some reason I keep wondering how far along we'd be as a world if we could just stop the crazy.

[hlthe2b]

256. There is the major deterrence, factor, Brenda. And that does matter right now.

[totodeinhere]

260. If you are antiwar what would you do if you were attacked by the

terrorists like Israel was? Would you just roll over and play dead?

[marybourg]

285. The question that never gets answered.

[inthewind21]

303. It's been answered many times

through the years. Apparently people forgot. Which is ironic since the most recent "justified" war the slogan was "Never forget" Ringing any bells yet? When it finally does, feel free to share with all what the outcome of that justification was.

[marybourg]

304. Would you point me to one of the many answers on this board?

[inthewind21]

309. Check

out some History. You'll find the answers you seek there.

[marybourg]

310. Yeah, that's what I figured: nada.

[inthewind21]

367. What

I figured as well. Not able.

[totodeinhere]

371. I noticed that you said it's been answered many times.

So if that is the case why don't you answer the question?

[claudette]

333. No, but

I wouldn't commit a terrorist act by killing innocents who had nothing to do with it just to get revenge. That's what Hamas did.

[inthewind21]

368. Was it revenge

Or was it to provoke a reaction? You think Hamas is surprised about the reaction?

[claudette]

369. Yes

Israel knows it can level Gaza. All their violence is now revenge. In my opinion. They’re supposed to be so good at covert operations so it would seem they’d choose that way to get rid of Hamas.

[TiberiusB]

370. People, please stop trying to label "anti war" as a weak posture

The idea generally isn't to simply wait until violence erupts and then lay down and take a pounding. It's a philosophy that your actions reduce the likelihood that conflict erupts in the first place. I know it's a popular opinion on DU to continually slam Hamas for being opposed to peace, and it's not wrong, but most Palestinians are not Hamas, and Israel has done plenty under Netanyahu, to completely undermine any peace process, too. There is plenty of blame to go around.
The U.S. routinely acts in such a way as to provoke conflict around the globe. This is not at all news. From undermining foreign elections to state sponsored terrorism, the U.S. has plenty of blood on its hands. That is the exact opposite of what is generally meant by being "anti war". And while conflict is not always avoidable, looking for ways to reduce the violence (cease fires, diplomacy) rather than sending more arms and troops should always be on the table.

[mzmolly]

261. Yes, I 'really' believe those are ships sent to evacuate

Americans.

I'm opposed to war in general, but if someone who is not - slaughters my compatriots, I believe in the right to act.

[gulliver]

262. We must fight for the antiwar position!

No antiwar, no peace!

[treestar]

264. I'm anti-war but then sometimes

like Ukraine, what else can they do, with an aggressive attack like Putin did.

The US has never gotten involved in the Middle East directly, but supportive like it is with Ukraine.

I'm re-reading Jimmy Carter's 2006 book - he was all about working for peace whatever it took. Wonder what he thinks of this.

[Kennah]

269. The Nuclear Age is here

US seeks to avoid Nuclear War, not War. Israel is a nuclear power, so we ensure they aren't overrun and resort to nukes. Move the nukes to someone else in the region, and our carriers and fighter jets are protecting and aiding them.

[Aussie105]

277. I'm against war.

Given the opportunity, everyone is.

Mistakes were made, and are still being made.

[LymphocyteLover]

281. Joe is trying to prevent a wider conflict not start a new war

So in that since he is anti-war too.

But saying you are anti-war without qualification is just naivete.

[Lunabell]

282. I'm with you.

It just feeds the war machine billionaires. And the thought of "collateral damage" makes me sick.

[Jilly_in_VA]

298. I'm here

I've been antiwar since Vietnam. Didn't know enough about the Korean conflict to be antiwar then or I might have been, but I was just a kid. Even then I had the feeling that "monolithic Communism" was bullshit.

Remember "War is not healthy for children and other living things"? Another Mother For Peace? That was me in 1970.

[Silent Type]

301. I understand our participation in fighting in Ukraine and Middle East, but it still makes me a little queasy.

[Kid Berwyn]

302. You are not alone.

Most DUers fit the "Antiwar" bill. Here's an example that particularly expresses how I feel about the nation's Merchants of Death, AKA the Bush Family Evil Empire, from when I posted as Octafish:

Know your BFEE: Spawn of Wall Street and the Third Reich

https://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=872755

"Money trumps peace." -- Pretzeldent George w Bush, Feb. 14, 2007

[iemanja]

321. The last thing that part of the world needs

Is further US involvement. Our weapons have already killed thousands. If anyone can fuck up a part of the world, it's the US. Look at Iraq.

[Brenda]

323. Thanks iemanja.

Over a quarter of a trillion US taxpayer dollars have been given to Israel and in that time, over 60 years, what has the outcome been? What kind of progress has been made? Who has come out better or safer in this situation other than the arms makers?

[claudette]

331. So am I - you are not alone

We send deadly weapons to Israel to use against the Palestinians, so why do we have to send our troops? This is NOT okay with me. Of course, the goal stated is to "evacuate Americans caught in the fighting," but it seems odd to me that 2400 Marines are needed for that.

I pray for peace

[MarineCombatEngineer]

337. Soooo..........

you're another one who has no clue of the deployment procedures of an MEU?

Or, do you? Perhaps you can explain what those procedures are?

[claudette]

338. No need to be

rude. I responded to what was in the article. It seems like an escalation to me and i wish we weren't there

[MarineCombatEngineer]

339. I'm not being rude,

I'm asking a legitimate question, do you know the deployment procedures of an MEU?
Here's a free clue, for every frontline Marine, there are 3-4 in the rear supporting those frontline Marines.

Ask me how I know this.

I wish we weren't there either, but if we weren't there, how fast would Hezbollah or Iran jump in this war?
Do you think it might be prudent to try to prevent this war from escalating?
Who else could do so?

[claudette]

345. Could've fooled me

I think we should NOT be there. Period. We should be giving practical (not only financial) aid to the innocent Palestinians who are suffering in Gaza. And Israel still plans a ground invasion. Why? They’ve won the violence contest. . It’s pure revenge now.

[MarineCombatEngineer]

347. ......

Could've fooled me

Apparently so, because I in no way was being rude, and I notice that you still refuse to answer my question.

Anyways, have a great Friday and weekend.

[Mike Nelson]

332. Well...

... I am anti-War. I wish Putin and Hamas were anti-War, too.

[Kaleva]

340. Are you saying Biden is lying to us?

Saying the Biden Administration is lying to us is not the same thing as being anti-war.

[MarineCombatEngineer]

346. This thread is approaching the "bombing the moon" territory.

[Swede]

349. "Si Vis Pacem, Para Bellum"

This ancient race has not found another solution.

[GreenWave]

357. A different kind of Summer of 69 song

[hueymahl]

360. I am with you 100%

I worry we are far to focused on military solutions throughout the world.

[NoRethugFriends]

376. yes, you are the only one here who is anti-war.

What a disingenuous question.

[calimary]

378. I would say no.

But it might be conditional.

So far, President Biden has made few mistakes or wrong steps. He’s got a good track record for honesty and honorable behavior. My tendency is to give him the benefit of the doubt.