Who reflexively believes HAMAS?

[boston bean]

Our media, other Arab countries.

The media especially is to blame for reporting the HAMAS claims with no evidence. Another failure. Is this thinking institutionalized.

My advice to myself and others is to hold your opinion until the facts are out.

It was not an Israeli missile attack on the hospital. It was a failed HAMAS ROCKET.

Of course media is still now stating they cannot independently confirm Israel is telling the truth (but evidence, not words are provided). Yet no such caveats last evening spreading the Hamas lie!

Disgraceful.

[AkFemDem]

1. Members of the squad

[redqueen]

67. All of them? Evidence? nt

[Happy Hoosier]

2. I am seeing correction in the media this morning...

... or at least equivocation.

But the media was pretty damned credulous in accepting Hamas' anrrative.

And the squad.... well.... let's say I have THOUGHTS.

[boston bean]

4. It is outrageous.

Even looking last night at the videos they were bringing people into that same hospital.

I didn’t see a hospital that was bombed to smithereens.

A bit of thought by those helping to spread lies would go a long way.

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

68. Looking at the visuals, IF there were 50 people in each ...

... of the ten cars that appear damaged, then I might believe the casualty "count".

It looks like the damage was confined to part of the parking lot.

That's just based on my interpretation of photos, so I could be way wrong.

[Johnny2X2X]

29. NPR this morning

Still saying hundreds of dead with zero evidence.

They're starting to say that there are varying opinions on who launched the rocket, but that's it as of this morning.

[Happy Hoosier]

31. Shameful.

I think at this point there is ZERO likelihood that "hundreds" died there.

Hamas are are liars, of course.

[Johnny2X2X]

37. Unless there are other dmage from that parking lot

Yeah, there's no way 50 people died, much less 100 or 500.

[Richard58]

63. Yeah

But so is the IDF and Israeli government. They lie constantly. Netanyahu has the gall to say there is not a humanitarian crisis in Gaza. Do you believe in?

[Happy Hoosier]

70. Nope. But that's based on actual evidence.

And when actual evidence is presented, I incorporate that into my decision making.

But I do not consider these equivalent.

Hamas planned and executed a horrific raid DELIBERATELY targeting the murder and kidnapping of civilians. They killed over 1000 people that morning. Deliberately.

Forgive me for thinking they are the less trustworthy of this pairing.

[boston bean]

81. Plus Biden states our own defense department has confirmed it did not

originate from Israel.

Are all the non believers of anything, quite a Schlick going on there, saying Biden is a liar?

[Kennah]

96. "Based on what I've seen, it appears as though it was done by the other team, not you"

That's the quote I'm seeing attributed to Biden. He seems to be leaving open the option that more evidence could show something else. However, the ferocity in yesterday's news that "Israel did it" seems to be fading.

[boston bean]

111. You are late with your news. Our defense dept has confirmed with our own intelligence.

But please continue on with trying to question the truth, all while buying HAMAS propaganda. I am losing ways to try and reconcile this as anything that is altruistic questioning.

[MorbidButterflyTat]

132. Link?

[boston bean]

140. Not your link lackey. It's posted right here on DU.

[Kennah]

147. I am not buying HAMAS propaganda

I'm critically thinking about words that are being said

I would wager, if I were made to, that it was Hamas or an "allied team" that fired the munition that struck near the hospital

[MorbidButterflyTat]

131. Link?

[boston bean]

141. Not your link lackey. It's posted right here on DU.

[CaptainTruth]

101. I agree. Hamas will exaggerate & lie to inflame hatred of Israel.

[liberalhistorian]

106. I think part of the problem is that,

like too many Americans, the media is ignorant of the number and complexity of anti-Israel terrorist groups in the Middle East. They often think it's just Hamas and Hezbollah, and that those two groups have all the resources and power to accomplish their murderous goals. When, in reality, there are a whole variety of such groups, with various resources and capabilities, and many with the backing and behind-the-scenes support of such countries as Iran.

So that, if they think that Hamas may not be capable of such a large-scale attack, they don't understand that there are plenty of other groups who DO have that ability and who wouldn't hesitate to harm their own innocent civilians to accomplish their goals and further their agenda.

[walkingman]

3. "My advice to myself and others is to hold your opinion until the facts are out."

Good advice but.....your next statement seems to contradict the above?

"It was not an Israeli missile attack on the hospital. It was a failed HAMAS ROCKET."

At this point I am not sure what the TRUTH really is or if we will ever know. But one thing for sure is it makes a bad situation even worse.

I personally hope that a lot of thought is put into what happens in the next few days. Hindsight has shown that over-reaction or revenge does not serve anyone well.

[boston bean]

6. The facts are out there. People get to decide what they mean I guess regardless.

Very discouraging.

[Voltaire2]

80. The facts aren't 'there'.

What is ‘here’ is everyone wearing their ideological blinders and seeing what they want to see.

Without an impartial on the ground investigation we simply don’t know what happened.

[boston bean]

83. Biden has confirmed it was not Israel per our defense dept.

Is he someone you do not trust? Can’t believe? Is lying?

[MorbidButterflyTat]

135. Link?

[boston bean]

137. I am not a link lackey. It is common knowledge. You can find it if you look.

Been posted right here on DU.

[BonnieJW]

33. I know a lot of you don't like the program, but

This morning on Morning Joe they are showing the actual rocket coming from Gaza toward Israel and changing course at the last second, dropping down into Gaza.

Richard Engel was reporting and said the Palestinians are so enraged, they aren't listening to anything.

[unc70]

56. Not sure videos are of ACTUAL rocket

There are several discussions at DU and many elsewhere analyzing various supposed videos. Almost all of them have been posted previously. At this point I believe nothing from Hamas and nothing from IDF. (One widely circulated as authentic from IDF showing the rocket off course is now being identified as from 2022.)

I don't know the truth. I am skeptical of the death toll, do confused by the satellite data, etc. and will await further evidence. I am fairly certain that Israel did not deliberately attack the hospital.

[CaptainTruth]

86. There's one video I saw last night I believe to be of the incident.

It's the Al Jazeera video of a stream of rockets being launched toward Israel & one of them clearly malfunctions (there's a small explosion in the air, likely the boost stage) then the warhead falls near the hospital (in the parking lot from reports & pics I've seen) & explodes.

There are other older videos out there but I believe that one is of the actual incident.

[boston bean]

87. That is what I saw last night as well. But was holding off

on commenting. But it did solidify my doubts that Israel did this.

[CaptainTruth]

108. The timeline of that video seems correct, as well.

The time of the rocket launches is known, & the timestamp in the video shows the rocket falling & exploding just a few minutes before the first reports of an explosion at the hospital.

There's a ton of misinformation out there, but that video seems to show what really happened, IMHO.

[Happy Hoosier]

76. Not unreasonable....

But I do not think we are dealing with two sides of equal credibility here.

Hamas co-locates military assets with normally protected structures and sites all the time. They are perfectly willing to sacrfice people (martyrs) to the cause. They don't really give a shit about civilians.

And not to put to fine a point on it but they not only don't spend a great deal of time attempting to avoid civilain casualties, they explicitly want to CAUSE civilian casualties.

In general, the balance of the issue heavily favors the Israelis, IMO. That that they will ALWAYS be right and Hamas wrong, but I'll take some convincing.

[boston bean]

119. They obviously were launching rocket attacks towards Israel from a

Location very close to a hospital.

Israel has shown great restraint by not taking out those sites due to them being so close to a hospital.

But still people don’t want to acknowledge this.

[LexVegas]

5. Many on this site. nt

[boston bean]

9. Ah yeah. I am trying to be gracious.

Deserved or not? Not sure.

[AntivaxHunters]

7. I don't believe anything

And I won't until we get an independent third party to verify everything. Then & only then will we know the real answer.

[claudette]

12. Same here

[onecaliberal]

27. Same.

[radical noodle]

74. What independent third party?

Who will you believe?

[AntivaxHunters]

75. United Nations monitors I'm good with

[radical noodle]

89. Thanks! n/t

[AntivaxHunters]

99. You're welcome 😁

[EX500rider]

148. By the time the UN could inspect the site...

...what makes you think Hamas wouldn't have cleared up any rocket debris and placed some IDF bomb casings from other sites there?

Or are terrorists just such good guys they would never do something like that? lol

[haele]

118. Agreed, I wait for the UN.

I hate to consider this situation as case of both sides do it, but, yeah. Those involved with the conflict lie to score political justification points for their base. Not equally in each situation, but they both are blinded hate.

Haele

[Lovie777]

8. The satellite photos if not already given to the media..........................

probably will show what happened, but on site expert investigation is important.

[harumph]

10. Our "mainstream media" is made up of:

(1) trust fund babies
(2) academic second stringers
(3) people not smart enough to be lawyers
(4) people not creative enough to be writers or entertainers proper
(4) right wing plants
(5) incurious dullards

The incompetence is by design.

[claudette]

11. No one I know

Questioning the IDF does not mean one believes Hamas. I’ll wait for either conclusive proof or a confession from the culprits.

[boston bean]

14. Were you off DU and the news last night?

I don’t need to provide this to you. It was all front and center.

Israel committing genocide. Exactly what Hamas was saying.

[claudette]

20. Have you seen this?

https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-news/misinformation-gaza-hospital-attack-1234856302/

“Misinformation Runs Rampant in Aftermath of Gaza Hospital Attack
Old video footage is going viral, bolstering online chaos in the aftermath of the attack

BY NIKKI MCCANN RAMIREZ
OCTOBER 17, 2023

GAZA CITY, GAZA - OCTOBER 17: (EDITORS NOTE: Image depicts graphic content) Injured Palestinians taken to Al-Shifa Hospital following Israeli airstrike on Al-Ahli Baptist Hospital in Gaza City, Gaza on October 17, 2023. Over 500 people were killed in an Israeli airstrike on Al-Ahli Baptist Hospital in Gaza on Tuesday, Health Ministry spokesman Ashraf al-Qudra told.
Injured Palestinians taken to Al-Shifa Hospital following a blast at Al-Ahli Baptist Hospital in Gaza City, Gaza on Oct. 17, 2023. ALI JADALLAH/ANADOLU VIA GETTY IMAGES
IN THE AFTERMATH of a blast at the Al-Ahli Baptist Hospital in Gaza, which killed hundreds of Palestinian patients and refugees in the medical complex, rampant misinformation has once again clogged online information avenues.

As has been observed since the outbreak of the conflict last week, instances of misinformation have largely presented themselves in the form of users, either intentionally or inadvertently, sharing old video footage as documentation of current events.

Case in point: One viral video purporting to depict the blast on Tuesday — which shows a rocket veering off its intended course and back into the area from which it had been fired — was quickly identified as having been posted on X (formerly Twitter) in 2022.

[boston bean]

21. Last night news.

Use the evidence provided. It is out there.

https://www.cnn.com/middleeast/live-news/israel-news-hamas-war-10-18-23/h_2b0ca738700446dc5c8615090e1f3331#:~:text=“Analysis%20of%20our%20aerial%20footage,close%20proximity%20to%20the%20hospital.

[claudette]

22. Who put it

Out there?

[boston bean]

23. Put what out wher

The claim Israel committed genocide and fired a missile at a hospital? HAMAS DID. Many went right along with it.

[AnotherMother4Peace]

60. "Who" is Israel. "It" is video/analysis of bombing of hospital in Gaza. "Out there" is a release to

the media. This is my understanding of what was stated.

[ForgedCrank]

105. Ask yourself

a logical question.
Knowing that: Hamas has a long history of spreading bullshit, Hamas has a long history of operating among civilians and making them targets (purposefully), Hamas has a long history of using the deaths that they are responsible for in propaganda, I could go on, but all of this is verifiable fact.

Now ask yourself, why would Israel use high dollar munitions to bomb a totally innocent civilian hospital, along with all the other resources wasted to do such a thing? What is the military value in doing this?
Israel doesn't indiscriminately bomb Gaza civilians for fun or target practice or something. It's the same propaganda op every damn time, and certain people FALL for it, every damned time. Makes me wonder where the logic is. It appears to me that some just have an internal hatred that needs to be fed.

[claudette]

109. It's really

useless to belabor this point since you obviously believe one side can do no wrong. I’ve said over and over that Hamas is horrible and should be defeated but I still don’t believe they would sacrifice innocent fellow Palestinians to put the blame on their enemy. There is enough hate on both sides to keep this war going indefinitely. I pray it ends soon when common sense and compassion prevail.

[ForgedCrank]

114. Why wouldn't

you believe it? They have done it countless times and have been for YEARS. It is their primary method of defense and is well documented fact.
If you are going to deny that (which you now have), then further discussion with you will be fruitless.

[claudette]

116. Exactly

I question it. Bye

[MorbidButterflyTat]

134. +1

Right there with you.

[Bev54]

154. They didn't do it on purpose, as far as I can see. It was an accident by a faulty rocket

but Hamas is using it against Israel, in a deceitful PR stunt. The rocket did not come from Israel, that is evident and it was shown live on tv before anyone even knew what it was.

[mcar]

98. It's still being said this morning

along with claims that President Biden is kissing Israel's ass.

[musclecar6]

13. Believes Anything Hamas Says ?

With the exception of the extremists in the Middle East, who their right mind, would believe anything that comes out of the mouth of a Hamas/Isis person.

[boston bean]

15. Many it would seem.

[Cha]

146. yeah, you'd think.. I'm seeing it as I've scrolled down

this thread. No surprises, though.

Link to tweet

Link to tweet

[Hellbound Hellhound]

16. Nazis and Jew-haters.

There are more than a few floating around , spewing false Twitter links and screaming "Fake News!" like the below-average Republican. The Holocaust wasn't good enough for them and they need MOAR blood on their hands to feel good about themselves. .

[dembotoz]

17. soooooo you think nutty yahoo is honest?????????? trump wants you on his fundraising list

[boston bean]

18. I have no love for authoritarians. However, I do like and believe facts.

Netanyahu will face his reckoning. Right now he is neutered. There is a coalition gov’t in charge.

And yeah, I believe the attack was a failed Hamas rocket. Because of evidence.

Evidence you want to dismiss and deflect onto other issues.

[dembotoz]

102. nutty yahoo face reckoning?????

ummm doubt it..... i also like facts

[boston bean]

124. Uh yeah. He will.

[Mossfern]

130. He absolutely will

face his reckoning. When the smoke clears he will be gone. I think one of the reasons that Hamas attacked when they did was because of the political instability in Israel.

[Buckeyeblue]

19. HAMAS lost all credibility when they launched the terrorist attack

And they lost all standing to level accusations or complain about how they are being treated.

[AntivaxHunters]

49. I don't think they had credibility to begin with

[elias7]

24. College liberals

I’ve never really realized how aligned current liberal thinking among youngest demographics are with the Palestinian cause. My father is a one issue voter (Israel survival) and made an inexplicable shift towards the right in the past two decades. It seems to make a lot more sense now.

Unfortunately, in my lifetime, terror has been the modus operandi at work in innumerable Muslim dominated states, with the bulk of the organized terror orgs in countries surrounding Israel, which is smaller than my state of NH. We remember Al Quaida and ISIS and the taliban, but seem to forget they were all predated by the PLO (1964), Hamas, Palestinian Islamic Jihad, Al-Aqsa Martyrs, and others. All with the specific goal of destroying the Israeli state.

The play all along has been to maintain refugee status of the Palestinian people, using them as pawns to garner public support and a rationale for continually attacking Israel. It has been the failure of Palestinian leadership (and other Arab nations except Egypt in 1978) to acknowledge Israel’s right to exist that has broken down peace talks for the 6 decades of my lifetime. And, most every skirmish and war has been provoked by surrounding Arab states and/or Palestinian territories.

I don’t think younger folks have the same appreciation of history as I do, nor are most looking from the Jewish perspective. They hear “apartheid” though I think it is incorrectly applied, and I’m,ediately side with the supposed victim

[Happy Hoosier]

26. Don't confuse....

Sympathy with the Palestinians in general with support for Hamas.

MANY people, myself included, believe Palestinians deserve a homeland and self-determination. We, or least I, do not support terrorism. especially this latest series of atrocities by Hamas.

I also do not not support Israel's persistnet violation of international law when it comes to their policies, partocularly the continues expansion of settlments in the West Bank. That cannot be justified, IMO. Also, collective and associative punishments are unjustifiable.

So... let's not paint with too braod a brush here.

[Johnny2X2X]

35. Self determination

They had elections 17 years ago, they elected Hamas, wasn't that self determination? And to this day, only a minority oppose Hamas despite the brutal treatment by Hamas of their citizens. The people fo Gaza cannot have self determination living under Hamas, period. They chose to live under a totally corrupt, violent and fascist terrorist organization, the only way they can have self determination is to be free from Hamas.

But I agree with you on Israel violating international law too often. Those settlements are wrong, as is leveling the house of the family of a terrorist who was caught. But that also didn't happen in a vacuum.

When Hamas was elected, this type of conflict became inevitable. But that doesn't mean Israel is totally without fault either.

[Happy Hoosier]

65. Clearly, Hamas has to go.

Self-determination by Palestinians does not negate Israel's right to self-defense, even to the point of destroying Hamas, which they are, quite justifiably, engaged in now.

I personally think Palestine (whatever that winds up being) needs to be under a period international conservatorship. The goal should be to transition to self-rule. They need some non-Israeli and non-Iran influenced guidance on building domestic instituions. It's complicated by generations of bad blood. But I think it's the only path forward that doesn't involve wiping out once side or the other.

[Johnny2X2X]

73. Agree

17 years under Hamas has been horrible for Gazans in every way, it's brutal Sharia law with honor killings, torture, and corruption. But it's also been 17 years of non stop Anti Israel propaganda that has jaded a generation of Gazans even worse. Things have gotten worse and worse under Hamas, but Hamas has gotten the people to go along with blaming Israel for all of it. And that's not to say Israel is blameless, they've made mistakes too, but Hamas is just short of ISIS and there is not dealing with them.

I agree with the Israeli mission of eliminating Hamas, it's the only way to have a chance at a lasting peace.

Bibi really screwed the pooch on this at every tunr, from being an unreasonable harliner, to turning around and giving Hamas credibility, it seems he was pushing towards something like this. I think he'll be gone within a year.

[SpankMe]

113. Sounds like a common problem

"...they elected Hamas...They chose to live under a totally corrupt, violent and fascist terrorist organization...". True.

They elected Hamas because Hamas is aligned and sympathetic with their grievances and is willing to act. Those "acts" are terrorist acts, unfortunately. But I think that many Palestinians see that as preferable to the bureaucratic and ineffective civilian government there. Hamas is also a manipulator of emotions and a generator of rage, as terrorist groups usually are. So, thugs like Hamas will gain agency there.

Remember, "we" (as a country, in accordance with the constitution and electoral college rules) elected Trump and his "team" in 2016 under similar circumstances - the GOP manipulated and scared enough of the electorate to elect a "totally corrupt, violent and fascist terrorist organization".

Popularity of the IRA (Irish Republican Army) saw increases in Northern Ireland when peace talks slowed or stalemated.

Support of the Taliban increased as the main Afghan government couldn't even provide electricity and water all day.

Public support of leadership/parties is a fluid thing and is highly dependent on conditions on the ground. If the world would focus on making life better for the Palestinians, these terrorist acts would be fewer and farther between.

Without excusing terrorism, the events of the last 2 weeks must drive the entire world to re-focus on Israel/Palestine. Life is not good for Palestinians. This must change.

[Johnny2X2X]

125. NIcely stated

You see it worldwide, democracies who chose fascism have a hard time "un-choosing" it. Because once you've given power to thugs like this, not only will they not relinquish the power, but they'll control the flow of information such that the people consent because they're misinformed.

Life is awful in Russia, Putin has done nothing but make life worse for the vast majority of Russians. But Putin controls the media, he controls the narrative, and he is really good at painting himself as the victim. The latest polls of the Russian people mgive Putin an 85% approval rating. All while they have less food and money, while they are less free, while their sons and brothers get shipped off to die in a war, where dissidents get killed or imprisoned. All of that is happening to the people in Russia, but they sure love them some Putin. That's what control of the media will do for a fascist regime. That's why I hate hearing the Right attack the American media the same way Putin would. If Trump got back in power, he would take over the media, if he succeeded he too could have 80% approval rating while Amkerica turned into a 3rd World country.

[AkFemDem]

30. And amazingly none of those other Arab nations

Actually want the Palestinians either. Egypt, Jordan, Lebanon- none of them welcome their Palestinian neighbors to cross that border. The very existence of the Palestine settlement suits their causes just fine.

[elias7]

145. That's what I learned was the whole problem from the start

Most Arabs were fairly nomadic and could have been absorbed by Jordan, Lebanon, Egypt, Syria, etc, but were told, “stay in Gaza and the West Bank, and we’ll destroy Israel and the land will be yours”. Unfortunately to them, the newly declared state of Israel in 1948 defeated a 6 country assault upon its founding (despite the palestinian group being offered an equitable half of the remaining British mandate leftover after 80% of the land was already given to the Arabs as Transjordan) in the war for independence. Since then, over and over there were options for Palestinian statehood, always rejected, mainly because the Arab world does not acknowledge Israel’s right to exist.

[Big Blue Marble]

150. Actually, it might be good to go back to the history books

You have made multiple mis-statements and errors in your narrative.

For example, do you know that in 1993, The Palestine Liberation Organization did
agree to Israel's right to exist when they signed the Oslo Accords? The PLO represents
over 3,000,000 Palestinians that live in the West Bank.

The same accords, that Israel signed agreeing to give Palestine a state. A promise they
never intended to keep. Now, 800,000 illegal settlers live on their land.

Also the Palestinians that fled Israel in 1948 were driven from their homes and villages.
They were not nomads. Many still wear the keys to their homes around their necks, grieving
their loss.

[Big Blue Marble]

149. What are "their causes"? N/T

[Act_of_Reparation]

100. "I don't think younger folks have the same appreciation of history as I do"

That's pretty patronizing, my guy.

[elias7]

143. Yes, I suppose it is

There may be some validity in lives vs read history though

[ms liberty]

25. I don't reflexively believe anyone about anything at wartime, especially in the ME

Because I remember the Kuwaiti Ambassador's daughter.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nayirah_testimony?wprov=sfla1

[TheRickles]

41. Thank you. Yes, this story came to mind for me as well. Worth bearing in mind, for sure.

[roamer65]

28. I'm sick of the age old conflict itself.

I want both sides to knock it off and make true peace.

[cayugafalls]

39. I am with you. I have been protesting war since I was 9 years old.

Fortunate enough to have a mom cool enough to let me be and by 9 I was full on hippy child.

Anti-war and going to political rallies with my friend Snoopy, she was kind on my girl-friend but innocent 9-10 year old, LOL.

We had fun, really and people dug it at rallies.

Edited to add, I hope none here get offended that some innocent 9-10 year old kids in the 60's had 'fun' protesting war...but the memory 'NOW' is a fun memory during a sad time as I had relatives in the war.

[roamer65]

40. +1

[RocRizzo55]

43. I'll agree to that for sure.

I am tired of BOTH SIDES lying.
In this case, one doesn't know WHO to trust.
Sorry, but I will not blindly follow either side on this one.
I want to wait until the facts are out.

[boston bean]

48. The facts are out, rocorizzo.

Find them yourself and believe them.

[RocRizzo55]

59. OK then

please tell me where the satellite photo of whatever rocket was fired is?
I haven't seen it, and that is the ONLY proof I need, not someone from one side or another who has lied to us in the past.
So if you can tell me where that photo is, I would greatly appreciate it.
Until then I believe nobody.

[boston bean]

61. That is a cop out.

There is evidence a plenty.

You choose to not believe it. Why, I am not sure.

Biden has stated our own defense agencies have confirmed. You are requesting proof of something that most likely will not be disclosed because it is sensitive info not released. Therefore your confirmation bias can continue unabated.

Sad.

[RocRizzo55]

66. No, it is not.

I choose to not believe EITHER side, because I saw no photo or video of it. I did not see where the rocket started from to know whose it was. Until I see that video, which is out there, I shall not be convinced either way.
You certainly are entitled to your opinion, but why am I not entitled to mine? Why is it a cop out that I want actual proof? It will be released by the side that did not launch it because it will benefit their PR. Please don't be so naive as to believe that any photographic proof shall not be disclosed.

[boston bean]

78. Ok, so you think president Biden is a liar. I don't.

[RocRizzo55]

104. You don't listen, do you?

Please stop this trolling.

[boston bean]

112. I listen quite clearly.

And I am not trolling. I am pointing you to facts. I guess in your mind that means trolling. Oookkkkaaayyy

[RocRizzo55]

128. No you are trolling.

I already told you what I shall believe. You never gave me the proof that I need to believe either side. You keep telling me that proof is out there, but I will not believe it. No, I shall ONLY believe the proof when visual proof comes out, as it will.
I am done with the conversation with you, because it seems that according to you I am always wrong!
Any future posts shall be considered harassment, which is against policy.

[Big Blue Marble]

151. He is capable of being mis-informed.

He was last week with his statement about the babies.
The Whitehouse had to rescind what he said.

[crim son]

71. And Iraq had weapons of mass destruction.

Try not to be quite so judgmental. Even my Jewish relatives are waiting on better evidence. You think they aren't anxious to believe it was Hamas?

[boston bean]

79. That was neocons and bush. President Biden has confirmed our own defense dept

has confirmed it was not Israel.

Yet keep on with the you can’t believe anyone. Really you think Biden is lying?

[Laura PourMeADrink]

54. Exactly. And saw preteens interviewed from both sides and they

literally viscerally abhor the other side. So this will perpetuate for long after our lifetimes.

[IronLionZion]

55. Same, they're not even trying any humanitarian peaceful options

so the cycle of violence continues. Rinse and repeat.

[Hermit-The-Prog]

32. As late as this morning, I saw tv news still reporting 500 casualties.

They recycled the same reports and then tacked on the no independent confirmation shit.

It's their job to get the facts before reporting or acknowledge they're reporting rumors.

[Ray Bruns]

34. The first casualty in war is the truth.

[Nasruddin]

93. An expert's view

"In wartime, truth is so precious that she should always be attended by a bodyguard of lies."
Churchill - or Stalin - or maybe both!

[pinkstarburst]

36. I am shocked anyone on this site or in the media

is taking reports released from Hamas like they are the gospel. Any time I see a statement from Hamas about "what's going on in Gaza" I assume there's about as much truth to it as when Putin opens his mouth.

It is disgusting to me that so many media outlets jumped to publish Hamas' false claims that Israel bombed the hospital yesterday KNOWING that Biden was on his way to the middle east, KNOWING that something didn't smell right about the timing, and that 1) it could have been a purposeful distraction by Hamas bombing the hospital on purpose to blame Israel 2) even if it was an accident and Hamas's fault from a mislaunched rocket (which it turned out to be) it made ZERO SENSE that Israel would bomb a hospital. Israel has excellent military and precision tech. They hit what they are aiming for. If they wanted to take out every hospital in Gaza, they could have done so on the first day of the conflict. Israel has gone OUT OF THEIR WAY not to hurt civilians. Hamas's claims made no sense, and no one in the media had two brain cells to rub together to stop and say hmmm... maybe we need to dig a little deeper and verify some facts before we publish something incendiary like this against Israel. Disgusting.

[Raine]

38. NO Way do I believe Hamas! 👎 nt

[IronLionZion]

42. It could easily have been the other group there, Islamic Jihad

Which is what many Israeli newspapers are reporting as the most likely culprit.

And as much as we hate Hamas for being a murderous terrorist group, they are the local government in Gaza. There is no one else to independently confirm or deny it. Maybe intelligence agencies have satellite photos/video of it but they haven't shared it with media yet, so media can only report what local authorities say.

[boston bean]

45. HAMAS has been caught red handed as to be involved on signint.

[IronLionZion]

47. Do you have a source for that?

I have not seen that when I searched Google news

[boston bean]

52. It's out there. I am not obligated to find it for you.

Adding. See reply # 51 on this thread. Ok, there I helped you.

[NickB79]

85. Malcolm Nance

https://www.democraticunderground.com/100218375181

[IronLionZion]

88. Your link explicitly accuses Islamic Jihad

it's 2 Hamas people saying it was from Islamic Jihad.

OP says we can't believe Hamas and then the source for this info is Hamas.

[boston bean]

90. The sigint was between two Hamas terrorists.

What are you missing here?

You think they don’t coordinate? Why are you so invested in protecting Hamas and attempting to cast doubt on their actions?

Not a god look.

[IronLionZion]

94. I want the truth

and I'm missing the leap from the conversation between those 2 guys and your conclusion.

[boston bean]

110. You have it. You just can't admit it.

[NickB79]

97. It exonerates the IDF

Is Hamas going to declare war on Islamic Jihad now, or give them a pass?

[IronLionZion]

126. Agreed, and Israel Defense Forces officially accuses Islamic Jihad

In a televised news conference Wednesday, Israeli military spokesman Rear Adm. Daniel Hagari claimed a lack of structural damage at the hospital proved the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) were not involved in the explosion. He claimed IDF intelligence showed that Palestinian Islamic Jihad – a rival Islamist militant group to Hamas in Gaza – caused the explosion when one of its rockets launched at Israel misfired.

https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/18/middleeast/israel-gaza-hamas-war-wednesday-intl-hnk/index.html

For comparison, plenty of countries and terrorist groups hate the US, but most liberals understand that Iraq was not responsible for 9/11. Blame should be placed on the right perpetrators.

[sarisataka]

44. Look around you nt

[boston bean]

46. I do.

[sarisataka]

50. .

I was just over in LBN were Biden is being called stupid and to "quit kissing Israel's ass". I have only seen one call for him to resign here but I expect more to come.

[TheRickles]

51. A good post earlier on DU has Malcolm Nance analyzing intercepted Hamas sigint.

The conclusion is that it was a Hamas misfire due to faulty weapons, coming from near the hospital but not aimed at it. And the casualty count has not yet been verified, so it's still not clear what really happened.

https://www.democraticunderground.com/100218375181|

[sellitman]

53. Glad you are here.

I never fail to understand how anyone could believe a group of TERRORISTS like Hamas.

I feel bad their own people don't matter to them at all.

[PatrickforB]

57. Absolutely. I heard speculation this morning that it was a failed Islamic Jihad rocket.

I don't think it was Israel, because they are not that stupid.

Now - and I truly hope it was an accident, because if some jihadist did it on purpose, it is beyond the pale of even being human.

Whether it was an accident or on purpose, the event is now being used to try and unite the Arabs against Israel and try one more time to eradicate Israel. And our stupid Republicans cannot even elect a new speaker. I just called my rep Ken Buck, who is a jerk, and left a message (he's too chicken to have staff answer his phone today - they must be getting lots of calls to get their heads out of their asses and start governing the country in a time of war and crisis).

If we could get four or five Republicans to throw their votes to Jeffries, we could actually have a competent Speaker.

In the meantime Biden is over there actually doing his job. He's a good, caring guy.

[Patton French]

58. Indeed

So unfortunate. How quickly the horrific events are forgotten, or perhaps purposefully ignored.

[mymomwasright]

62. Iran regime is Hamas and Hezbollah daddy!

No trust for any of them! I truly wish the Palestinian and Iranian people could get independence from them.

[Richard58]

64. That's true but

Israel has a history of bombing schools, hospitals and killing reporters. I take everything the IDF and the Israeli government say with a huge grain of salt.

[2naSalit]

69. +1

[boston bean]

82. Do you believe Biden. Or is he not to be trusted either?

[Duncan Grant]

115. Biden confirmed the beheaded babies story just last week.

And the White House walked it back the same day. People understand misinformation is part of warfare. This is the reality.

Do I believe today’s statement about the hospital by President Biden? Yes, I do.

[boston bean]

117. Good. The babies heads were blown off. Not cut off with a machete.

And babies were cut out of the mothers wombs.

I am glad to know you at least believe Biden that it was not Israel missile targeting a hospital.

[Duncan Grant]

121. Wow. (nt)

[boston bean]

122. I know. Wow. It all happened.

[Duncan Grant]

127. Looks like you're having a hard time.

There are resources out there for you. Ask a friend for help. Good luck!

[boston bean]

139. Back atcha!

[Big Blue Marble]

152. Another Gaza Hospital Hit by Israeli Strike; Four Dead, 40 Hurt

Israel does target hospitals.

From 2014:

GAZA CITY, Gaza Strip -- Israeli forces fired a tank shell at a hospital in Gaza on Monday,
killing at least four people and injuring 40 others, health officials said.

"It was the third hospital Israel's military has struck since launching a ground offensive in Gaza last week."


https://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/middle-east-unrest/another-gaza-hospital-hit-israeli-strike-four-dead-40-hurt-n161086

[Nasruddin]

92. Reputations are fragile

When you destroy your reputation for honesty, no one will believe you when you decide to tell the truth.

This may happen with Hamas & its allies now too (except with the cognitive-dissonance true believers).

[redqueen]

72. The media plays a huge part in ensuring the hoi polloi stay squabbling nt

[Bluethroughu]

77. I don't understand why the media can't say...

We have reports from Hamas that they did not do it, yet this information is not confirmed it is being investigated.

[redqueen]

133. They want the outrage engagement

It's all about ad revenue

[liberalmuse]

84. I think Pres Biden's response was responsible.

I have no opinion until the facts are out. Even then people on all sides of this conflict will believe what they choose to believe and sadly, the parties involved haven’t always been credible or discriminating with their bombs. As someone who’s been reactionary for decades, I have no room to talk but I do see how media and other parties manipulate and control the narrative by triggering instantaneous gut reactions.

[Nasruddin]

91. OTM user's guide to breaking news

Everyone, especially journos/editors, should keep this in hand:
https://www.wnycstudios.org/podcasts/otm/articles/breaking-news-consumers-handbook-pdf
to avoid waking up in the morning with Hamas and egg on one's face

(That, and the Gell-Mann Amnesia Effect.)

[mcar]

95. It is disgraceful

Why would anyone beiieve a terrorist organization? Oh wait...

[EX500rider]

103. The crater is way to small to be from any IDF 500 or 1000lb bomb

BBC: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67144061
.webp

[NickB79]

107. And too little damage to imply hundreds dead

Unless they were packed in like cordwood, and it landed directly on top of them.

[Ace Rothstein]

120. That crater looks like a Chicago pothole after a long winter.

No way an Israeli bomb/missle caused that. There would have been considerably more damage.

[CaptainTruth]

123. Video this morning shows only damage to cars in parking area.

The buildings in the background, with the large solar panel arrays on the roof, are the hospital. Their appearance, is very distinctive, especially the one closest to the blast with the 7 (?) air conditioning units on the wall & what appears to be large conduit for the solar array cables (or maybe a drainpipe?) running down the wall), this is definitely the hospital.

As you can see the building is intact, & the explosion damage is consistent with a typical Hamas rocket, not larger IDF weapons.

Link to tweet

?t=8gltdHUYEWh9YA_tOF3r5g&s=19

[MorbidButterflyTat]

136. Apparently,

everyone is expected to reflexively believe YOU.

Any questions or concerns or differing opinions are met with sarcasm and insults.

"Find it yourself! It's out there!" does not make a viable argument. You started the thread and made claims, you should be providing evidence.

The nastiness and rudeness displayed on DU this past week has been shameful.

[boston bean]

138. I don't need to prove a fact. You should do your research if you don't believe a fact.

[Wingus Dingus]

142. Replace Hamas with Al Qaeda or ISIS in this context and it does look stupid--

can't imagine the media uncritically accepting and presenting AQ's casualty numbers and accounts of events as fact. Thanks for giving a terror group credibility, dumbasses.

[Cha]

144. Sen Fetterman & Malcom Nance

Link to tweet

Link to tweet

[RockRaven]

153. The reporting I've seen said it was Palestinian Islamic Jihad, not Hamas...

And that reporting cites Israeli government/intelligence as the source. As recently as two hours ago NYT was publishing new articles containing that attribution.

Palestinian Islamic Jihad:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_Islamic_Jihad

Hamas:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas

Similar? Yes. Both offshoots of the Muslin Brotherhood organization? Yes. Both in Gaza? Yes. Simply different names for the same entity? No.

Perhaps one thinks that is a distinction without a difference. Okay (don't care). But even if so, that isn't a barrier to accurately repeating reportage, if one wants to make their point with the full weight of said reportage behind it.

[krawhitham]

155. I don't believe anyone, bring proof or STFU

[IronLionZion]

156. I don't reflexively believe anyone claiming anything without evidence.

You are providing claims with no evidence.

My advice to myself and others is to hold your opinion until the facts are out.

It was not an Israeli missile attack on the hospital. It was a failed HAMAS ROCKET.

Your second sentence directly contradicts the first sentence above it. Plenty of reputable sources like IDF are reporting that Israeli intelligence confirmed it's an Islamic Jihad rocket that misfired.

When DUers ask for a source for your claims, you give us insults and "go find it yourself", "not obligated", "link lackey", etc. but no evidence, links, or source.

Yet no such caveats last evening spreading the Hamas lie!

Disgraceful.

You wouldn't like to be blamed for what some other Beantown Bostonian did would you?

Failing to distinguish between 2 rival groups of suspects contributes to the confusion and complexity of the situation. Sure Hamas and Islamic Jihad are both terrorist groups. But we should blame the correct perpetrators and avoid blurring the lines of a conflict that has many impacted stakeholders and severe humanitarian consequences.

This sentence from your OP is important and valid:

My advice to myself and others is to hold your opinion until the facts are out.

[boston bean]

157. Still trying some way to deflect from the facts, I see.

Bull puckey.

[IronLionZion]

158. Quite the opposite

Several DUers have come to this discussion with evidence. You have not.

[boston bean]

159. LOL.

[IronLionZion]

160. Exactly

[boston bean]

161. Exactly.